Debate Tournament - Round 1: Outcasts vs. Tolkienologists

[Ithrynluin]

Before we proceed to the topic of the debate and other formalities... would both teams please assemble their teams?

The Outcasts get to choose the sides, and the debate will last for seven days from the first post.

The topic is: Is the race of Men in general treated fairly and had the same opportunities that other races had throughout the history of Middle Earth?

GoO team:

YayGollum
munchkin
The-Elf-Herself
Nóm

GoT team:

Eriol
Gate7ole
Gil-Galad
Finduilas

Let it begin, and good luck!

[Nóm]

We will show that men were treated fairly, and that while they obviously did not get the same opportunities (invitation to Aman, living among the Valar... and whatnot) they got opportunities that were equal for them to the opportunities the elves got. I concentrate on comparing the fairness and opportunities of men with elves in the opening of this debate.
Topic is huge, didn't know where to even start.


Both races of the children of Iluvatar woke in Middle-earth under shadow. Some of the Eldar made it to Aman, where there was bliss. But Aman was not untouched by the evil of Morgoth. All things in Aman that came from Middle-earth were tainted, and this includes the Eldar. Aman first saw great sorrow with the death of Miriel...


Morgoth's Ring
And death is for the Eldar an evil, that is a thing unnatural in Arda Unamarred, which must proceed therefore fromt he marring. And if the death of Miriel was otherwise, and came from beyond Arda (as a new thing having no cause in the past) it would not bring grief or doubt. For Eru is Lord of All, and moveth all the devices of his creatures, even the malice of the Marrer, in his final purposes, but he doth not of his prime motion impose grief upon them. But the death of Miriel has brought sorrow to Aman.
Yavanna speaks...
Then Yavanna spoke, and though she was the spouse of Aule, she leaned rather to Ulmo. 'My lord Aule errs,' she said, 'in that he speaks of Finwe and Miriel as being free in heart and thought from the Shadow, as if that proved that naught that befell then could come from the Shadow or the marring of Arda. But even as the Children are not as we (who came from beyond Arda wholly and in all our being) but are both spirit and body, and that body is of Arda and by Arda was nourished: so the Shadow worketh not only upon spirits, but has married the very hron of Arda, and all Middle-earth is perverted by the evil of Melkor. who has wrought in it as mightily as any one among us here. Therefore none of those who awaoke in Middle-earth, and there dwelt before they came hither, have come here wholly free. The failing of the strength of the body of Miriel may then be ascribed, with some reason, to the evil of Arda Marred, and her death be a thing unnatural. And that this should appear in Aman seemeth to be as to Ulmo a sing to be heeded.

... and then with the loss of the holy light of the Trees that they all loved. Shortly thereafter the evil influence planted upon the Noldor by Melkor came to fruitation. He went among them and caused their pride, distrust of the Valar, desire for the rule of more lands in Middle-earth,because of that and to get revenge for the death of their mighty King, and to regain what the enemy took, they left Valinor in the folly of haste and against the council of the Valar. They went under leadership of Feanor, mighty and skilled far beyond any other of the Children of Iluvatar that ever were or would be, but he was prideful, and selfish, and he drove them into hell. But before they got to hell, they stopped off and visited it upon the innocent Teleri. Valinor was darkend and it's most wise people fell into Melkor's trap, and elves fought elves to the death. But the Noldor were doomed for this, to die in Middle-earth, falling not only to Morgoth, but to treachery and fear of it. The Noldor were always divided because of this.

The Sindar were aided by the Noldor in war against Morgoth, but eventually Beleriand was ruined... and many of it's people died. There was nothing left but grief and a little hope when at last the Host of the Valar came and ridded the World of Morgoth himself, but not his influence, or the fabric of the world from his taint .

Meanwhile out in the east the Avari lived under the Shadow of Morgoth, and would live without the knowledge of the Eldar until eventually those who had not died would fade away and many who did die would refuse the summons to Mandos and this was a bad thing .

Morgoth's RingThe fea is single, and in the last impregnable. It cannot be brought to Mandos. It is summoned; and the summons proceeds from just authority, and is imperative; yet it may be refused. Among those who refused the summons (or rather invitiation) of the Valar to Aman in the first years of the Elves, refusal of the summons to Mandos and the Halls of Waitings is, the Eldar say, frequent. It was less frequent, however, in the ancient days, while Morgoth was in Arda, or his servant Sauron after him; for then the fea unbodied would flee in terror of the Shadow to any refuse - unless it were already committed to the Darkness and passed then into its dominion. In like manner even of the Eldar some who had become corrupted refused the summons, and then had little power to resist the counter-summons of Morgoth.

But it would seem that in these after-days more and more of the Elves, by the of the Eldalie in orgin or be they of other kinds, who linger in Middle-earth now refuse the summons of Mandos, and wander houseless in the world,unwilling to leave it and unable to inahbit it, haunting trees or springs or hidden places that once they knew. Not al of these are kindly or unstained by the Shadow. Indeed the resfusal of the summons is in itself a sign of taint.
and...
For the Unbodied, wandering in the world, are those who at the least have refused the door of life and remain in regret and self-pity. Some are filled with bitterness, grievance, and envy. Some were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still,
though he himself is gone.
These Arvai, and even some of the Eldar, were tainted so badly that they refused the summons, or currupted by Morgoth so that they went to his dark dominion. This refusal happend more and more as the years wore on, and many elves were left with spirit sundered from body. This is directly against their true nature and it should not have been and would not have been if not for Morgoth the Marrer. An ugly, and evil fate for many elves.
But that is not all that these Avari would suffer...
Morgoth's Ring
What then happend to the houseless fea? The answer to this question the Elves did not know by nature. In their beginning (so they report) they believed, or guessed, that they 'entered into Nothing'. and ended like other living things that they knew, even as a tree that was felled and burned. Others guessed more darkly that they passed into 'the Realm of Night' and into the power of the 'Lord of Night'. These opinions were plainly derived from the Shadow uinder which they awoke; and it was to deliver them from this shadow upon their minds, more even than from the dangers of Arda marred, that the Valar desired to bring them to the light of Aman.
The Avari had no way of ever leaning better. They would keep this shadow upon their minds. This is surely comparable to men's fear of death, and the fate of their houseless spirits trying to remain in Middle-earth couldn't be worse than men leaving Arda and going out into the unknown. Not if you believe that Eru is good.

[Nóm]

Now even the Vanyar in who were not as touched by Morgoth as the Noldor, and who were not involved in the Kinslaying, were at a disadvantage in Aman. Dwelling in the light of Trees they became too content, and wanted no part of anything else, just as the Valar earlier did and it was because of that, that the Valar neglected Middle-earth for a time.

In life the Firstborn experience death, and that was an unnatural grief, the result of Morgoth's marring, and they also experience the sorrow of seeing the world change, passing away while they changed little . But they do grow old, just more slowly than men. The life of the elves is the life of Arda, and through the long lives they will grow weary, memory a burden , the years weighing heavily on them .
Morgoth's Ring
Since death and the sundering of spirit and body was one of the griefs of Arda Marred, it came inevitably to pass that death at times came between two that were wedded. Then the Eldar were in doubt, since this was an evil unnatural.
and Manwe said...
Since the Elves are by nature permanent in life within Arda, so also is their unmarred marriage. But if their life is interrupted or ended, then their marriage must be likewise.
and the words of Ulmo...
And death is for the Eldar an evil, that is a thing unnatural in Arda Unmarred, which must proceed therefore from the marring.
Death is not natural for them and happens only as a result of Arda Marred.
Morgoth's Ring
For the Eldar do indeed grow older, even if slowly: the limit of their lives is the life of Arda, which though long beyond the reckoning of Men is not endless, and ages also.
Morgoth's Ring
As the weight of the years, with all their changes of desire and thought, gathers upon the spirit of the Eldar, so do the impulses and moods of their bodies change.
Morgoth's Ring
For in their early days elf-children delighted still in the world about then and the fire of their spirit had not consumed them, and the burden of memory was till light upon then.
This implies that memory will become a great burden in time.

They grow weary more so than could ever be understood by the short lived mortals. So while the span of the life of men may have been shortend under the shadow, so were the elves hindered in body and spirit because of the evil of Morgoth. They learned death that they should never have had to know . The seperation of body and spirit was a grief, and no less because it didn't last forever in most cases.


The elves are different by nature. Their spirits ment to stay within Arda...
The Silmarillion
It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon whither the Elves know not. Whereas the Elves remain until the end of days, and their love to the Earth and all the world is more single and more poignant therefore, and as the years lengthen ever more sorrowful. For the Elves die not till the world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence they may in time return.
Morgoth's Ring
This destruction of the hroa, causing death or the unhousing of the fea, was soon experienced by the immoral Eldar, when they awoke in the marred and overshadowed realm of Arda. Indeed in their earlier days death came more readily; for their bodies were then less different from the bodies of Men, and the command of their spirits over their bodies less complete
This command was, nonetheless, at all times greater than it had ever been among Men. From their beginnings the chief difference between Elves and Men lay in the fate and nature of their spirits. The fear of the elves were destined to dwell in Arda for all the life of Arda, and the death of the flesh did not abrogate that destiny. Their fear were tenacious therefore of life 'in the ramient of Arda'. and far excelled the spiris of Men in power over that 'ramient'. even from the first days protecting their bodies from many ills and asaults (such as disease), and healing them swiftly of injuries, so that they recovered from wounds that would have proved fatal to Men. As ages passed the dominance of their fear ever increased, 'consuming' their bodies (as has been noted). The end of this process is their 'fading', as Men have called it...
... and having a more harmonious relation with their bodies and with the world they live in, their immortal nature was such that what is good for them is not always good for men. Valinor for example, is a place where elves can live, but for men even to know of it fills them with envy (Numenoreans)... and in fearing death they wrongfully think that dwelling in this land will give them immortality. But men can not dwell among the elves even in Middle-earth, without seeming to be dimmed in the light of the Eldar (As Hurin puts it). Because the elves have what we want does not mean that they have everything.

And what would men do in Aman, if they could live there? They are most inclined to evil , and would surely try to shape Aman to their own liking, and this would not be to the liking of elves and Valar, but even more so it would not be to the liking of other men, and their would still be contests for Kingships, and for resources. But even if men were good there, they would pass quickly in those lands, and would be faced all the time with the seemingly unchanging Eldar. Men are beter left in Middle-earth away from that bliss, where they can be men rather than seeming as short-lived because of the relatively long life of the immortals, and where they can shape things to their liking...
The Silmarillion
But to the Atani I will give a new gift.' Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.

[Nóm]

Now the Valar did not come to men and invite them to Aman to lift them from the shadow as they did with the elves , and this is because it was best that they didn't, for the reasons I gave above. But something much like that invitation to Valinor did happen for men. Many of them went into the west and meating with the Eldar they grew in wisdom and their short lives became longer. They were uplifted by the presense of the mighty Calaquendi...
The Silmarillion
Nonetheless the Edain of old learned swiftly of the Eldar all such art and knowledge as they could receive, and their sons increased in wisdom and skill, until they far surpassed all others of Mankind, who dwelt still east of the mountains and had not seen the Eldar, nor looked upon the faces that had beheld the Light of Valinor.
Morgoth's Ring
Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm. In their association with the warring Eldar Men were raised to their fullest achievable stature, and by the two marriages the transference to them, or infusion into Mankind, of the noblest Elf-strain was accomplished, in readiness for the still distant, but inevitably approaching, days when the Elves would 'fade'.


.... just as the Eldar where uplifted by contact with the Valar. But even more so, in the early days of men, they heard the voice of Iluvatar ... something that did not happen for elves. He gave them guidance and counsel, but they did not listen and that is why they fell to darkness in those early days before some made it into Beleriand....
Morgoth's Ring
Some say the Disaster happend at the beginning of the history of our people, before any had yet died. The Voice had spoken to us, and we had listend. The Voice said:'Ye are my children. I have sent you to dwell here. In time ye will inherit all this Earth, but ye must he children and learn. Call on me and I shall hear; for I am watching over you.'
We understood the Voice in out hearts, though we had no words yet. Then the desire for words awoke in us, and we began to make them. But we were few, and the world was wide and strange. Though we greatly desired to understand, learning was difficult, and the making of new words was slow. In that time we called often and the Voice answered. But it seldom answered our questions. saying only: 'First seek to find the answer for yourselvs. For ye will have joy in the finding, and so grow from children and become wise. Do not seed to leave childhood before your time.'
But we were in haste, and we desired to oder things to our will; and the shaes of many things that we wished to make awoke in our minds. Therefore we spoke less and less to the Voice.

It is not recorded that the elves got this special treatment. Though things did go bad for men, this was a Mighty opportunity for them. Instructions from the One... is followed they would have gained great wisdom... maybe to compare with the elves. But it didn't happen.
However, they had the next ooportunity when some of them flead fromt he shadow in the east at met up with the Eldar (I mentioned above).

From many of these people came the Numenoreans, who fell. But all the same it was a great opportunity for the entire race of men. Those men of Numenor who made it to Middle-earth and lived after the changing of the World, would eventually die in wars (Kin-strife, Witch king, general destruction by Sauron's servants.. men out of the South and East), or fade away mingled with other men. But this uplifted the other men of the world, and the world came to belong to men, to do what they would with it.
Now to men it may look as though elves have it better, because they see in the wisdom, skill, beauty, and long life of the elves, what they might have been like or would like to be like. That is fair enough and understandable to me, but what men do not always see is how it should have, could have been for the elves. They were no less lessend by evil than were men.

The Silmarillion'Behold I love the Earth, which shall be a mansion for the Quendi and the Atani! But the Quendi shall be the fairest of all earthly creatures, and they shall have and shall conceive and bring forth more beauty than all my Children; and they shall have the greater bliss in this world.
Elves have more bliss, but Men have a power to shape their life beyond the music of the Ainur, and this is agreat gift.
Elves have the greater bliss the world, but this is because they are greater, and their sorrows are also greater.

Now this is a huge topic, and many things can be mentioned but not all at once, and the closest I can come to doing so is to say this:

Men suffer more from sickness, battles with eachother, and an inclination to evil, but we can hardly even begin to understand what it is like to be an elf, immortal, closer to the world, and too see everything changing before us, passing away, and many centuries behind us. To be bound so closely with our bodies that we can command them to heal from wounds that are mortal for men, and then to lose this union, even if for a time. And grow weary in a time so long that men can't comprehend it, while our utter end approaches, and the other race, that of men, got to leave the world before this could happen to them, and go out into Ea and do who knows what, but whatever it is, they must have been ment for it, and their time spent in our aging world was just a passing moment.

[Eriol]

I’d like to congratulate whomever chose this topic. Fascinating, indeed. Also I’d like to congratulate Nóm for an impressive opening post (s). I’ll have to work hard…

This post will be somewhat bereft of quotes. I don’t feel this is a serious weakness, since quotes really are only “circumstantial evidence” – they reinforce an argument but do not build it.

The question being argued is this:

Is the race of Men in general treated fairly and had the same opportunities that other races had throughout the history of Middle Earth?

Now, to decide about the justice of an act, we have to define justice itself. (I use the words ‘fairness’ and ‘justice’ interchangeably in this argument). It is not enough to show that the same things happened to the two parties. Justice implies proportionality. You can inflict death on a man and be just; do the same thing to another man and you will be unjust. Another question that must be answered is who is dealing justice. If two parties inflict the same act on two different men, and it is just, this may be nothing but a coincidence. Justice, therefore, implies a single power dealing proportionate punishments or rewards.

This preamble is meant to make clear that we can’t compare Eru’s actions to Morgoth’s, or Morgoth’s to the Valar, or the Noldor with Eru, etc. To see whether the Race of Men was treated fairly, we have to check each of these agents and see whether they treated Men proportionately to their dealings with other races. In fact, the only power that can be said to have treated men “fairly” is Morgoth! As I intend to show in the course of this post.

I accept the comparison between Men and Elves, provisionally; we may have to investigate their treatment in comparison with other races, for the topic is not restrictive. But even so some chinks in the Outcasts’ mighty armor can be perceived.

In keeping with the distinctions of the parties dealing justice, I would propose that the Elves be excluded. They are in an equal footing with Men, they are the standard of comparison – and we can’t really blame the Noldor for favoring the Noldor. Therefore the actions of Noldor, Sindar, and Avari have no bearing in this matter. We should focus on the actions of the Powers, those who were supposed to treat both races fairly. So there are three main agents to be discussed: Eru, Morgoth, and the Valar, if we consider them as a body. (Even so it can be argued that Ulmo was fair while others were not… but let us look at the Valar as a unit, first.)

So much for a preamble. Let me examine Nóm’s post now, carefully.

We will show that men were treated fairly, and while they obviously did not get the same opportunities, they got opportunities that were equal for them to the opportunities the elves got.

This quote makes clear the Nóm is accepting my definition of justice as proportionality. We do not intend to show that since Men did not go to Aman they were not treated fairly. But we must now investigate whether Men got ‘equal’ opportunities – opportunities with as much promise and efficacy as the Elves were given.

The first part of Nóm’s post deals with the marring of Elves, and how it is the same, in kind, as the marring of Men. The basis for that is the Marring of Arda itself effected by Morgoth, with the consequence that beings made of the stuff of Arda would be marred as well. You can see here the basis of my assertion that Morgoth treated them fairly – for Nóm is evidently correct when she mentions that. Both races were ‘fallen’, less than they could have been had Arda not been marred. A grim fairness, this one inflicted by Morgoth, but it could not be said that he singled out any of the races.

As bad as this marring was, the Valar had some power to counter it. Bliss could be found in Arda marred, even if fleeting and limited. And the greatest example is the Vanyar, as shown by another of Nóm’s quotes:

Now even the Vanyar who were not as touched by Morgoth as the Noldor, and who were not involved in the Kinslaying, were at a disadvantage in Aman. Dwelling in the light of the Trees they became too content, and wanted no part of anything else…

The Vanyar became too content. This was the disadvantage of the Vanyar. Excessive bliss!

If only the Valar had inflicted this great disadvantage upon Men…

After this extraordinary assertion by our opponents, they address the matter of the intrinsic difference between the lifespans of the races. This, of course, shifts the focus of ‘fairness’ to Eru. And they show that the immortality of the Elves can become a burden and a pain as history unfolds. Now this is completely unrelated to the Valar, they had no part of it, and therefore this can’t be brought up in defense of the Valar, only – perhaps – of Eru. We will talk about Eru’s actions in a moment.

The bliss of the Elves, especially of the Eldar, was brought about by specific actions from the Valar. The Valar invited them, they guarded them on the road, they fought a war against Morgoth for their sake, and accepted them in their lands, forever; including those who had refused the first invitation (e.g. Sindar). These are the actions that we must judge, and compare with their analogues towards men. Our esteemed opponent says that:

… something much like that invitation to Valinor did happen for men. Many of them went into the west and meating with the Eldar they grew in wisdom and their short lives became longer. They were uplifted by the presence of the mighty Calaquendi…

Note that in this quote there is not a single action of the Valar. By the actions of the Valar, we would have:

(a) no Silmarils, as Fëanor would have broken them to restore the Trees;
(b) no Calaquendi in Middle-Earth, for they tried, as strongly as they could, to prevent the Noldor exile;
(c) as far as we know, no migration of Men to the West, since they certainly never invited them. This migration was a result of Men’s determination, and of the legend of the Valar dwelling in the West, from where the first Sun rose. But if we are going to give credit to the Valar for being famous, then the whole analysis of responsibility for their actions breaks down. The reputation of the Valar was an unintended side effect of their existence – they did not run ads inviting Men to see the brightness of the Valar.

This means that even if we accept the acts mentioned by Nóm (migration to the West, meeting with Calaquendi…) as equal in efficacy to the actions made in favor of the Elves (war with Morgoth, the Great March…), this can be attributed, at most, to Eru’s overseeing, and never to the Valar. And therefore we have actions of the Valar in favor of the Elves, without any corresponding actions in favor of Men – in other words, unfairness.

After that, in Nóm’s post, we get the mention of the Voice. Even though the nature of this Voice is uncertain – Finrod certainly did not buy that story in all details – we can accept that Ilúvatar spoke directly to Men. So what? What bearing does that have on the actions of the Valar? The Valar were not aware of that. As far as we know, Ilúvatar did not send a memo to Manwë saying: “Take your hands off men, I’ll take care of them”. If anything, this point to the fairness of Eru, who, seeing the Valar fail in their role, took up a job that should have been theirs.

And this is not an open-and-shut case of fairness, of course. We think it OK because we are men, after all. Elves could perceive themselves to be shortchanged by this operation. Unfairness cuts both ways. It is quite possible (and Finrod hints of that in the Athrabeth) that Men were more favored by Eru than Elves – and that would be unfair.

Back to the Valar’s actions. What were the ‘opportunities’, any opportunities, that they ever gave to Men? I can only think of one – Númenor. But then we have to check the topic, and it addresses the race of Men. Númenor was a boon to the Edain only, and other men would not hear about it for several centuries. And Númenor was a compensation for the damage of the War of Wrath, and for the help of the Edain in the wars of Beleriand. This happened thousands of years after Men appeared (we are taking the chronology of Morgoth’s Ring, I assume, since we are quoting the Athrabeth – and so men appeared while Morgoth was still on the loose, in the Darkness of the stars), and addressed only a very small portion of the human race. Can this really be called fairness? It smacks of favoritism. We are talking about a situation in which Morgoth was imprisoned and the armies of the Valar had complete control of Middle-Earth – nothing could be easier than to amend their past mistakes and teach their art and lore to men. Instead they build an island for their remaining allies (who were a small number, remember, devastated by the War) and leave the rest to fend for themselves – and this meant, in the course of time, to fall under the shadow of Sauron. In the meantime ALL Elves (including those who refused the first summons) are pardoned and invited to Valinor, with the sole exception of Fëanor’s remaining sons. So much for fairness!

[Eriol]

I was very touched by Nóm’s final paragraph:

Men suffer more from sickness, battles with each other, and an inclination to evil, but we can hardly begin to understand what it is like to be an elf, immortal, closer to the world, and to see everything changing before us, passing away, and many centuries behind us. To be bound so closely with our bodies that we can command them to heal from wounds that are mortal for men, and then to lose this union, even if for a time. And grow weary in a time so long that men can’t comprehend it, while our utter end approaches, and the other race, that of men, got to leave the world before this could happen to them, and go out into Eä and do who knows what, but whatever it is, they must have been meant for it, and their time spent in our aging world was just a passing moment.

As touching as that is, it has no bearing on the actions of the Valar. It addresses mainly Morgoth’s evil and the nature of the two races, which is Eru’s doing. It is only by mixing many agents together that we can bring up a semblance of fairness in a mess of very unfair actions, as Nóm skillfully did.

(And now I hope some of my team members can supply useful quotes in support of my argument, for my post is woefully lacking in them :( )

[YayGollum]

Got it. Fairness and opportunity type stuffs. Looks like we agree that Mel was equally nice to everyone. Now we're just talking about Eru and the Valar. It looks like this Eriol person wouldn't want me to say ---> The elves and humans were treated fairly in different ways in that the elves get to live for forever, but only get to hang out with the boring Valar when they die, while the humans get to die of old age and hang out with Eru. oh well. Let me see here. I'm supposed to say ---> Eru treated the elves and humans equally in that he got the Valar to pay all kinds of attention to the elves in the beginning, while he could pay all kinds of attention to the humans in the beginning since the Valar were ignoring Middle Earth by that time. You people don't think that the Valar types would show up to help the humans out if they weren't tired of Middle Earth by then? oh well. I wouldn't know.

[gate7ole]

First let me make clear that my argument to follow doesn’t refer to the differences in the nature of the two races. I think this is not the case here and whatever was mentioned by our opponents about this is true. Men and Elves have a different role in Arda and their opportunities should be different. Men could not be summoned in Aman. We know this for certain. Also Eru was infinitely just towards both races – we can’t judge the actions of the One. Our case is that even considering the differences in nature, Men were not given the proper chances to prosper in Middle-earth, as were given to Elves in Aman and Middle-Earth.

I think that my team-mate Eriol summarized excellently the whole matter of the injustice towards Men. I will here refer to a certain event, so that we can limit the discussion to less broad issues.

Let’s look closer to the undeniably best “opportunity” that the Valar gave to Eru, Númenor. And most importantly, the wisdom that the race of Men acquired by it.
We read at the Akallabeth:

Then the Valar forsook for a time the Men of Middle-earth who had refused their summons and had taken the friends of Morgoth to be their masters. … And the lot of Men was unhappy.


To the Fathers of Men of the three faithful houses rich reward also was given. Eönwë came among them and taught them; and they were given wisdom and power and life more enduring than any others of mortal race have possessed.

We see two different approaches. The Valar forsake for a while the Men of Middle-Earth that refused their summons. This for a while makes me wonder which later actions of the Valar were directed to them (I can only think of the Ithryn Luin). On the other hand, they give their full support to the Edain. If someone suggests that the Edain were fairly treated I would agree. But (as Eriol said in his post), we are discussing about a whole race here. How can their reaction towards the less eager Men?
We read in the same chapter:
And after the victory of the Lords of the West those of the evil Men who were not destroyed fled back into the east, where many of their race were still wandering in the unharvested lands, wild and lawless, refusing alike the summons of the Valar and of Morgoth.
They are not evil by nature. They do not follow Morgoth. They simply don’t understand the Valar and possibly fear them. What is more natural than to flee? Shouldn’t the Valar pay to them more attention and guide them? They guided the Edain, who were the less crucial to be guided, since they already obtained some of the wisdom passed through the Noldor in them. And the “lesser Men” are neglected. With the following result:
And the evil Men came among them, and cast over them a shadow of fear, and they took them for kings.
They fell to evil. Can they be fully accused of this? Or do the Valar also have some share in this fall?
The wars of Second and Third Age involved many of those “lesser Men” that became hostile towards the Edain. Even in the War of Ring we see unexplained hatred against them, caused by the servant of Evil, Sauron. Weren’t the Wainriders, the Variags, the men of Khand and Rhun a result of this negligence of the Valar towards them? Were they actually evil? (remember the Dunlendings). Did they get the same opportunities as the Elves, even the Avari? I think not. So, generally speaking, the whole race of Men was treated unjustly compared to the whole race of Elves. And I didn’t ever mention the fact that the undertaking of this guidance of the Men by the Valar took place much later than it should have been. But for this we may speak in later posts.

[YayGollum]

Huh. Sounds crazy to me. How often did the Valar pay attention to the dark elf types that wandered off towards the beginning and got snagged by Mel? We are forgetting the fact that the Valar decided not to pay any attention to those elf types after they ran off that one time? The Valar hanging out with some of those elves in that paradise place, while letting the others in Middle Earth die seems a lot like the Valar handing Numenor over to some humans, while letting the others in Middle Earth die. Bad things happen because of fame. Certain elves get to know the Orome guy. He takes them to paradise. Others get grabbed by Mel. Certain humans get noticed by the Valar since they helped out the elves. Others get grabbed by Mel.

[gate7ole]

Do you suggest that the treatment of the Avari was the same with the treatment of the lesser Men?
As far as I remember, the Valar (Orome) came among all the Elves and spoke to them and taught them language and other things and then some of them deciding that they would be better free wondering around without anyone over them, rejected the offer of the Valar.
On the other hand, the lesser Men were afraid of the encounter with the Valar (or Eonwe their representative) and didn't even approach him and his summons, wandering and
refusing alike the summons of the Valar and of Morgoth.
I see a great difference here. To the Avari, they were given a chance and they denied it, to the Lesser Men no chance was given

[Nóm]

You can inflict death on a man and be just; do the same thing to another man and you will be unjust. Another question that must be answered is who is dealing justice.
Even so, different people will have different ideas as to when the death is just and when it is not. Likewise we'll all see this topic differently.

Justice, therefore, implies a single power dealing proportionate punishments or rewards.

Men were treated a way by each race: Valar, Elves, Men, Dwarves, Maiar, orcs, and so on. And even then, treated differently by individuals within those races, and further still not all men were treated the same by all of these races and individuals. The justice you speak of would only apply to an invididual situation, but we have many, happening constantly throughout men's history. We can not just look at a single person or power dealing out justice, but must find a way to measure if men were treated fairly on average, and in general throughout history.
As touching as that is, it has no bearing on the actions of the Valar. It addresses mainly Morgoth’s evil and the nature of the two races, which is Eru’s doing. It is only by mixing many agents together that we can bring up a semblance of fairness in a mess of very unfair actions, as Nóm skillfully did.

I never claimed it had bearing on the actions of the Valar...

I look at the nature of men as compared to the elves, because this is the indication of how men were treated by Iluvatar, and Morgoth; the most influencial and power beings to even know of men's existance, as far as we know. Iluvatar was the all-father, and he made them what they should have been before the marrer meddled with them, and it is because of the way he made them, that they turned out the way they did with the marring. These two things (Iluvatar, Melkor) together made men who they are. I say that the way they were created and shaped is a very big part of the treatement they got. The biggest.

The Valar? They shaped Earth, made the habitat for the Children of Iluvatar. Thereafter they just offered guidance, and looked out for the children. Because men are different than elves, this would require the Valar guide and aid each race according to it's own nature and needs; not the other's.


Morgoth's RingHas it never entered into your thought, Andreth, that out there in ages long past ye may have out yourselves out of their care,and beyond the reach of their help? Or even that ye, the Children of Men, were not a matter that they could gorvern? For ye were too great. Sole masters of yourselves within Arda, under the hand of the One.
Finrod, as far as I know, has no way of knowing that men put themselves out of the care of the Valar. That is, he can't have been told this my them, as far as I know. But he does know that men are too great, he know that they are sole masters of themselves. This is evident to us if we take that they did not listen to the Voice. Men do not hear the messages of Ulmo (expcet Tuor, the exception), and why is that? They do not seek it, they seek to do things their own way. I say that they are a people who did not need guidance from the Valar to the same degree that the elves got it.
What do the Valar do but teach elves? Not much. The Valar is the link between the elves and Iluvatar, but indirectly they are also that link for men, even after men severed the direct link. They are this indirect link, because it works though the Eldar, before reaching men.
No, the Valar did not do as much directly for men as they did for elves. They didn't need to because men didn't need it. As is evident by the fact that they prospered without it. They did play a part in saving them in the First Age, and again in the Third, and everything that they did for elves passed down to men somehow. So while the Valar did different things for each race, they did things that were equal according to the race. This was only fair to men because it was what they needed by nature.

To see whether the Race of Men was treated fairly, we have to check each of these agents and see whether they treated Men proportionately to their dealings with other races.
I agree. Which is why I did so with Iluvatar and Morgoth's treatment of men and elves. The First and Secondborn Children.

In keeping with the distinctions of the parties dealing justice, I would propose that the Elves be excluded. They are in an equal footing with Men, they are the standard of comparison – and we can’t really blame the Noldor for favoring the Noldor. Therefore the actions of Noldor, Sindar, and Avari have no bearing in this matter.
We can choose to use them as the standard for all our comparisons, but it is not wrong to do otherwise. Though, the debate would have to last months if we were to even try to cover all we can think of.
The Vanyar became too content. This was the disadvantage of the Vanyar. Excessive bliss!
Yeah, it was. If we believe Iluvatar's words, then all the evil that Melkor did will be turned and worked into something more beautiful than it would have been if not for the evil. The Vanyar? They didn't get to experience this. They pretty much always existed in Arda Unmarred, only stepping out of it a couple times, breifly. They were enamoured in the holy light, and in love with Manwe and Varda, crawling at their feet (with all due respect to Ingwe, King of elves), instead of being out living life. How could these Vanyar fully appreciate the "bliss" when it's pretty much all they knew. They were stuck on it, not knowing what they were missing.
They were simply too sheltered.

If only the Valar had inflicted this great disadvantage upon Men…
Passing time feels different in the Undying Lands and there men would pass more swiftly than ever, they would not be happy there, not for long. Even if they did become enamoured and were peaceful among eachother, they would know nothing but a very short time in that peace. Maybe they would even call it 'bliss' but for them it would be a simple, empty, and even weak existance.

After this extraordinary assertion by our opponents, they address the matter of the intrinsic difference between the lifespans of the races. This, of course, shifts the focus of ‘fairness’ to Eru. And they show that the immortality of the Elves can become a burden and a pain as history unfolds. Now this is completely unrelated to the Valar, they had no part of it, and therefore this can’t be brought up in defense of the Valar, only – perhaps – of Eru. We will talk about Eru’s actions in a moment.
It does not "shift" the focus to Iluvatar... Iluvatar's treatment was the focus from the beginning.


The Valar invited them, they guarded them on the road...
Orome lead many of them a lot of the time, but none of them all of the time. Many were lost, or turned aside because of fear.

Note that in this quote there is not a single action of the Valar. By the actions of the Valar, we would have:

(a) no Silmarils, as Fëanor would have broken them to restore the Trees;
(b) no Calaquendi in Middle-Earth, for they tried, as strongly as they could, to prevent the Noldor exile;
(c) as far as we know, no migration of Men to the West, since they certainly never invited them.

A. This would have happend only if the Valar forced the children to their will... this would make the Valar a bunch of Morgoths!

B.They counselled against the Noldor leaving in folly of haste, under leadership of Feanor, against Morgoth alone. They did not council against the returning to Middle-earth in general. But they gave council out of wisdom and care, this was not a command.

C. If they had no part in inviting men to the West, then why would any lack of action on their part keep men from moving into the west? It is very doubtful that men learned of the valar first from the calaquendi. The meeting of Finrod with Beor's people is the first such meeting recorded. The men had to have heard about the 'gods' from the elves who did not pass into Beleriand but lived in the East.

But I think we should base this one what was done, or not done, rather than what might have happend if the valar's council was taken in this or that istuation. The fact is that we can not know what would have happend if Feanor had unlocked the Silmarils for the trees. For all we know, the valar would have went after Morgoth and put a quit end to it, before Thingol even knew he was under threat. Then some Noldor may have come back to Middle-earth and lived in peace, and welcomed men, and the Children of Iluvatar live happily ever after. We just can't know.

...we can accept that Ilúvatar spoke directly to Men. So what? What bearing does that have on the actions of the Valar? The Valar were not aware of that. As far as we know, Ilúvatar did not send a memo to Manwë saying: “Take your hands off men, I’ll take care of them”.

If anything, this point to the fairness of Eru, who, seeing the Valar fail in their role, took up a job that should have been theirs.
That is a big assumption, no smaller than this one:
If anything, the Valar did not know where or when men awoke and did not go to them because Iluvatar wanted this job himself.
Manwe was closest, and took most council in thought from Iluavatar, but apparantly he was not informed about the men. This must have been for a reason.

[Nóm]

Back to the Valar’s actions. What were the ‘opportunities’, any opportunities, that they ever gave to Men? I can only think of one – Númenor.
I can think of a more amazing one. Ulmo spoke to Tuor and had him go to Gondolin, this was the opportunity for the men along with the elves to get their prayers to Valinor and have aid against Morgoth. And it worked.
Ulmo also came to Finrod and Turgon in a dream, and that is how Nargothrond and Gondolin came to be, and these elven realms where mighty against Morgoth, even if not on the front lines with Finrod's brothers, or some of Fearon's sons... even these hidden realms were for the benefit of men too, in the end.
And as Ulmo says in Unfinished Tales: he may seem to opposed the other Valar, but that is his part.
What about Melian? Most positively influencial Maia ever. Maiar, the people of the Valar, should be classified with the Valar for our purpose here? The Ainur of Arda. It was because of her love with Thingol, her great forsight and council, that a mortal came to sneek into Morgoth's chamber and take a silmaril from his crown. And she was the cause of half the reason that the blood elves went among men, and the cause of the blood of Ainu among them.

YayGollum has answered gate7ole much as I would have. How where these men of the East or the South any worse off than the Avari?
The only thing these men lacked that the men of the West had, was knowledge to a degree, but even among the elves this is so. Those Calaquendi have more than the Moriquendi, especial more than the Avari. So, there were evil men out there and down there, not a big deal really. What about the wicked elf spirits who refuse Mandos? But the men of the west had a lot of hell to pay fighting against other men in the third age. They were as touched by Sauron as Sauron's own men were. But now what happens to Khand and Harad now that Sauron is gone? They are men who are free to do what they will, and they'll eventually become more wise. They aren't being turtured by Melkor over there and down there. The only thing had less of was knowledge and that can not have gone on for too long.

Gate7ole posted while I was... let's see what he says to Yay...

I see a great difference here. To the Avari, they were given a chance and they denied it, to the Lesser Men no chance was given

Well all of those men under shadow in the east should have snuck off into the West.

A chance for what though? To know more about the Valar? The Eldar? This type of knowledge gets filtered down to evenyone eventually, and there are always some who get it more pure than others.

The fact is that after the final defeat of Sauron, all the men of the world were free to go where they would and do what they like, unless they are restrained by other men, and then whos fault is it?

[Finduilas]

Both races of the children of Iluvatar woke in Middle-earth under shadow. Some of the Eldar made it to Aman,
Indeed both races awoke in the Shadow but lets trace the sequence of the events:

First of all,Elves had their future and lives cared for before they actually awoke:
It came to pass that the Valar held council, for they became troubled by the tidings that Yavanna and Oromë brought from the Outer lands; and Yavanna spoke before the Valar, saying: 'Ye mighty of Arda, the Vision of Ilúvatar was brief and soon taken away, so that maybe we cannot guess within a narrow count of days the hour appointed. Yet be sure of this: the hour approaches, and within this age our hope shall be revealed, and the Children shall awake. Shall we then leave the lands of their dwelling desolate and full of evil? Shall they walk in darkness while we have light? Shall they call Melkor lord while Manwë sits upon Taniquetil?'
And Tulkas cried: 'Nay! Let us make war swiftly! Have we not rested from strife overlong, and is not our strength now renewed? Shall one alone contest with us for ever?'
What is more,Varda even created the starts so that the Firstborn do not get lost when they awake:
Then Varda went forth from the council, and she looked out from the height of Taniquetil, and beheld the darkness of Middle-earth beneath the innumerable stars, faint and far. Then she began a great labour, greatest of all the works of the Valar since their coming into Arda. She took the silver dews from the vats of Telperion, and therewith she made new stars and brighter against the coming of the Firstborn; wherefore she whose name out of the deeps of time and the labours of Eä was
Tintallë, the Kindler, was called after by the Elves Elentári, Queen of the Stars.
And yet the Valar longly EXPECTED the Firstborn:
Thus it was that the Valar found at last, as it were by chance, those whom they had so long awaited.
While,Men were in some words 'forgotten' and forsaken:
To Hildórien there came no Vala to guide Men, or to summon them to dwell in Valinor; and Men have feared the Valar, rather than loved them, and have not understood the purposes of the Powers, being at variance with them, and at strife with the world.
Not only were the Valar worried about Elves and weren't they interested in Men at all,but also continued to do everything possible in order to safe the Elves:
Then the Valar rejoiced, and yet they were in doubt amid their joy; and they debated long what counsel it were best to take for the guarding of the Quendi from the shadow of Melkor.
They even went to War in order to both destruct Melkor's might and to save the Quendi:
This is the counsel of Ilúvatar in my heart: that we should take up again the mastery of Arda, at whatsoever cost,and deliver the Quendi from the shadow of Melkor.
Furthermore,it is boldly put that the Valar were extremely fond of the Elves and kept on looking after them even after the War:

But the most part feared for the Quendi in the dangerous world mid the deceits of the starlit dusk; and they were filled moreover with the love of the beauty of the Elves and desired their fellowship. At the last, therefore, the Valar summoned the Quendi to Valinor, there to be gathered at the knees of the Powers in the light of the Trees for ever; and Mandos broke his silence, saying; 'So it is doomed.'
The Elves were invited to Valinor,the Undying Lands,a priority not offered to Men.
In addition,it is important to notice the fact that Elves were immediately invited in Valinor where Melkor would not touch them,but Men were ruled over by Morgoth and had to suffer all their grief.

All things in Aman that came from Middle-earth were tainted, and this includes the Eldar. Aman first saw great sorrow with the death of Miriel...
Great sorrow for not only Elves but Valar too,undoubtedly.But how can the sorrow caused by the death of ONE elf be compared to the distress of a whole people,dwelling among sorrow and death?For Miriel's death is nothing in comparison to the grief of Middle-Earth-fear of evil,darkness,death...
But the Noldor were doomed for this, to die in Middle-earth, falling not only to Morgoth, but to treachery and fear of it. The Noldor were always divided because of this.
The case is different.The Noldor wished to leave Aman,they weren't forced to do it and ,therefore,all the grief they suffered was a consequence of their action.
Why. O people of the Noldor,' he cried. 'why should we longer serve the jealous Valar, who cannot keep us nor even their own realm secure from their Enemy? And though he be now their foe, are not they and he of one kin?
Vengeance calls me hence, but even were it otherwise I would not dwell longer in the same land with the kin of my father's slayer and of the thief of my treasure. yet I am not the only valiant in this valiant people. And have ye not all lost your King? And what else have ye not lost, cooped here in a narrow land between the mountains and the sea?
'Here once was light, that the Valar begrudged to Middle-earth, but now dark levels all. Shall we mourn here deedless for ever, a shadow-folk, mist-haunting, dropping vain tears in the thankless sea? Or shall we return to our home? In Cuiviénen sweet ran the waters under unclouded stars, and wide lands lay about, where a free people might walk. There they lie still and await us who in out folly forsook them. Come away! let the cowards keep this city!


Meanwhile out in the east the Avari lived under the Shadow of Morgoth, and would live without the knowledge of the Eldar until eventually those who had not died would fade away and many who did die would refuse the summons to Mandos and this was a bad thing
Similar to the previous point,the Avari were invited too to the Undying Lands,but they refused it.The important thing is that they had the choice and all they suffered was a consequence of their wish.While Men had no choice, they were doomed to be unfairly treated from the beginning:
but they called them also Hildor, the Followers, and many other names: Apanónar, the After-born, Engwar, the Sickly, and Fírimar, the Mortals; and they named them the Usurpers, the Strangers, and the Inscrutable, the Self-cursed, the Heavy-handed, the Night-fearers, the Children of the Sun.
...

[YayGollum]

Trying to address everything --->

Humans didn't get their future and lives cared for before they actually awoke? Oh. Am I just crazy for thinking that Eru helped them out a little? Something about superly cool gifts that the elves don't have. That thing where he talked to them. The place where they suddenly appeared. It's not like Mel got to them right when they woke up or whatever. Didn't they run into dark elves first?

Am I a crazy person for believing that stars are equally helpful to both of the races you're talking about? Or are you just saying ---> She made the things especially for the elves and could care less about the humans and the fact that the stars help both races out just as much doesn't matter?

Am I a crazy person for believing that you're talking about the Valar not paying much attention to the humans while Eru did? oh well. just like you have no proof that the Valar were just forgetting the humans, I have no proof that they didn't forget and just didn't feel like running back over to Middle Earth to help them out while Mel's messing around and they don't want to get in another big fight for a while. sorry about that. I like my idea better. Maybe I just don't want the Valar to look that evil. I happen to think that having a bunch of lesser gods babysit the elves while one all powerful god babysits the humans is pretty equal. Silly, huh?

What's all of that about that Miriel person and the sufferings of some whole race? Are you just talking about how much the Valar types care about the elves and how sad they are about every little thing? I'm not sure. oh well. If that's what you're talking about, I'll just say something like ---> Oh, yeah? Well, like I said before, the elves are the Valar types' pet project and the humans are for Eru. Is that not good enough for you? Hm. Okay. How's about ---> Hey! The humans weren't even around back then and that Miriel person was the first one to die. I would think that it would be especially sad. oh well.

Long rant --->

And what's all of that craziness towards the end? Yikes! How is it unfair for elves getting to go to that paradise type place with all of those lesser gods while humans get to go hang out with Eru when they die?

Oh. You think that the fact that the elves got to hang out over there while they're alive is a great thing. Well, even though humans didn't get an invitation, they could still go. No, that doesn't help. Hm. Numenor doesn't help? I guess not, since it came way later and elves always had the chance to head for paradise.

But then, there was a time when they had to wait for a while for another chance to head there. just like humans had to wait for their chance with Numenor. After that, there's the superly cool ambitious type drive they have that let them take over everything way later.

Or are you just talking about initial type stuffs? Probably. We don't get to say that things are fair when they get to be that way eventually? Okay. How's about I just say that humans had the opportunity to do all kinds of superly cool things that might not have been as pretty as paradise, but could just happen to be just as fun? You know. Those creepy mysterious gifts the Eru guy tossed at humans. They seem to have more free will or ambition or something.

Also, what do all of those names that you qoted have to do with anything?

[Gil-Galad]

To find the answer of the question whether the race of men was treated fairly and had the same opportunities as the the other races or not,we should analyze not elven life and sorrow,but Valar's actions.They are those who watch for the Cildren of Iluvatar in ME.Yes,they DO many things,but mostly for elves.I think that we should not talk about elves' life and its disadvantages bacause nothing is perfect.We should note what the Lords of the West do for men and what for the Firstborn.Thus we'll see there is some difference in the opportunities given to elves and men,

The Valar are really impatient to see the Children of Iluvatar:

Yet be sure of this:the hour approaches,and within this age our hope shall be revealed ,and the Children shall awake.Shall we then leave the lands of their dwelling desolate and full of evil?Shall they call Melkor lord while Manwe sits upon Taniquetil?

The Lords of the Wesat perceive that the Time is coming and that they should do something.They feel The Firstborn are coming and something should be done.Something which will make their life better.In that case Valar are like real parents taking care for their own children.But who are these children?Men?No,that's elves:

In this age the Children of Iluvatar shall come indeed,but they come not yet.Moreover it is doomed that the Firstborn shall come in the darkness....

As we can see their thoughts concern elves and nothing is said about men.Let's make a comparison with Valar's thoughts and actions just before the coming of the Secondborn.Did they hold a council concerning men's coming?Did they thought what to do in order to protect men from lands full of evil and Melkor's acts.?I do not remember something like that to be written in The Sil or somewhere else.I just have the feeling that after the coming of the elves,the Valar just forget or at least do not trouble themselves with the question about men's fate.

And on a time it chanced that Orome rode eastward in his hunting....

Yes,probably by chance Orome found the Firstborn,but I should say that he wanders Me with the hope he would find them,hope that is somewhere at the back of his mind,hope that's subconscious.My question here is did a Vala find the men?No,Finrod Felagund did it.Why not a Vala?Did they forget about the Secondborn?Did they think about them?I do not know,but the fact that an elf,not a Vala found men,is indicative of attitude towards the Secondborn.

[Gil-Galad]

Eru's voice,speaking to men could be interpreted in a different way.Valar found elves just on time,so there's no need of Eru's intervention.But men came and nobody from the Lords was looking for them.So Iluvatar's voice could be determined as an intervention because of Manwe and Co.'s lack of action.
What happened when Orome found the elves?

....we should take up again the mastery of Arda,at whatsoever cost and deliver the Quendi from the shadow of Melkor.

What do we have here?A whole war because of elves!A whole war for the better life of elves!The Valar decide to protect the Quendi from the Shadow,just like parents protect their children from bad things.However,what happens when the Secondborn come?A war?:

But it was said afterwards among the Eldar that when awoke in Hildorien at the rising of the Sun the spies of Morgoth were watchful,and tidings were soon brought to him;and this seemed to him so great a matter that secretely under shadow he himself departed from Angband,and went forth into Middle -earth,leaving Sauron the command of the War.

To corrupt or destroy whatsoever arose new and fair was ever the chief desire of Morgoth;and doubtless he had this purpose also in his errand;by fears and lies to make Men...

Well,men are left alone.Nobody does anything to save them from the Shadow.They are left to stay a long time ruled over by evil.If we compare what happened after the coming of the both races it is obvious that the Firstborn had better opportunities for development and surviving.

The Valar help the elves and it would be fair if htey did the same with the Secondborn.But nothing like that happened.What is more,the Lords of the West invite the Quendi to come to Aman:

But the most part feared for the Quendi in the dangerous world amid the decits of the starlit dusk;and they were filled moreover with the Love of the beauty of the Elves and desired their fellowship

That examplifies the situation in which were elves.The Valar did take care for them,but the problem is that they did not do the same for men.Thus once again the Firstborn are given better opportunities for life and development.

Nym said that those elves who stayed in Beleriand suffered.Yes,they did,but were they forced to stay in Me?No.The Avari refused to follow the other.It was their choice and later they just faced the consequences of their choice and actuions.At least they had a choice,while men did not have any.So having even that in mind,I would say there was a preferential treatment towards the Firstborn.

Speaking of opportunities we should have in mind also an agent like choice.Without any choice different opportunities for development and life are impossible.When somebody can make a choice,he always has different opportunites for progress,happiness etc.But men do not have any,or if they have any choice,it is limited,cause they need Valar's help.That really decreases the opportunities they have.

[Gil-Galad]

Another fact that shows the race of Men was in general treated unfairly is the knowledge elves gain from their contacts with Valar.The Eldar had the opportunity to learn from the creators of the world,to learn from those who have the greatest skills and imagination.The Gods taught the Firstborn great things and soon there was a result .The Eldar became great craftsmen and grew wiser than any other race.

On the other side men had the chance to learn from the elves,and ,yes they grew wise and became great too,but not as much as their teachers.Speaking of opportunities we should have in mind that fact:Who had better teachers?Who learnt from the best?Elves or Men?Elves did.Men learnt from the Firstborn,but is that fair?I think that if men had been taught by the Valar,they would have had much more opportunities for their progress,they would have known much more things and would have grown as wise as elves.So as you can see that is definitely unfair.

Although Earendil reached Aman in the name of the two races-elves and men,the War of Wrath is mostly for elves.First of all the Edain were too few,bacause of the wars in Beleriand and all the suffering.Many tribes were ruled over by the shadow and still feared evil and darkness.But this war was not for them.If it had been, the Lords of the West would have saved not only the elves and the Edain from the shadow,but also and the other tribes of men.They were not guilty for the fear of Morgoth and the fact they served him because of it.If we have in mind Mandos' words:

Equally the Noldor,who went witfully into exile,may not return hither

and the whole contextual meaning of this chapter we will note that elves are the main reason for the War of Wrath.


With the beginning of the II Age the Edain are invited to dwell in Numenore,but only they.The other men have to continue the difficult life in Me,to face all the sorrow everyday,and why?Because they didn't help the Valar and elves in I age,because they were ruled over by Melkor.So the Gods gave "presents" to those who are loyal and what about those who were deceived by Morgoth and his servants?Didn't they have another chance?

Then the Valar forsook for a time the Men in Middle-earth who had refused their summons and had taken the friends of Morgoth to be their masters;and Men dwelt in darkness."

That is right,those who refused were forgotten ,not a chance was given to them,only to the Edain,who stayed loyal.At the same time:

When therefore Morgoth had been thrust forth,they held council concerning the ages that should come after.The Eldar they summoned to return the West.

Not only the Eldar,but even those who refused in the beginning of the days to go to the West were allowed to set sail for the Unduying Lands.Thus a different attitude towards the two races is noted.All elves are allowed to return to the West,but only a small part of the mankind went to Numenor.Is that fair?

[Gil-Galad]

And then again the Numenoreans gained knowledge from elves.No Valar does something special for them.Men in ME were just abandoned,they are forgotten and left to live under the Shadow.Numenoreans developed their civilization to the highest stage of evolution and a time came when they desired to have more,to posses more,to be immortal.Of course is was impossible,because Eru's thoughts were different when he designed men,but their strive to escape death couldn't be stopped only by words.

But this we hold to be true that your home is not here,neither in the Land of Aman nor anywhere within the Circles of the World.

The Light of the Heaven and the life there will only make men die faster,but they did not know that and did not believe in it,because they had not seen it with their own eyes.Men just didn't have any choice.They couldn't reach the Undying Lands.At the same time,elves did have a choice.They were allowed to leave Aman,lead by Feanor and soon they understood their mistake.What is of greatest importance is that they had a choice.They took it and faced the result of it.

However men didnot have any choice.They just should not have sailed westwards.If they only had had the opportunity to reach Valinor and realize it was not a place where men could live,they would have changed their aims and opinions.But that was not allowed.They opposed the Valar and were destroyed.The problem in that case is that elves were free to decide,to make mistakes while men were not.They were not allowed to set sail westwards and their choice was limited at least.And what opportunities would they have when they had not any choice or if they had it was very limited.

What can I say in conclusion?I tried to be as clear as possible,cause I think everything comes from the Valar's actions.They just treated the men in unfair way or at least not in the best possible way.

[Finduilas]

Am I a crazy person for believing that stars are equally helpful to both of the races you're talking about? Or are you just saying ---> She made the things especially for the elves and could care less about the humans and the fact that the stars help both races out just as much doesn't matter?

Of course,stars were equally helpful for both Elves and Men but the point is who are they created for?
Then Varda went forth from the council, and she looked out from the height of Taniquetil, and beheld the darkness of Middle-earth beneath the innumerable stars, faint and far. Then she began a great labour, greatest of all the works of the Valar since their coming into Arda. She took the silver dews from the vats of Telperion,and therewith she made new stars and brighter against the coming of the Firstborn ; wherefore she whose name out of the deeps of time and the labours of Eä was Tintallë, the Kindler, was called after by the Elves Elentári, Queen of the Stars.
They later helped Men and other creatures too but the fact that they were created with a purpose and specially for SOMEBODY(s) remains.
Oh. You think that the fact that the elves got to hang out over there while they're alive is a great thing.
Well,Tolkien himself had said it:
Immortal were the Elves, and their wisdom waxed from age to age, and no sickness nor pestilence brought death to them. Their bodies indeed were of the stuff of Earth, and could be destroyed; and in those days they were more like to the bodies of Men, since they had not so long been inhabited by the fire of their spirit, which consumes them from within in the courses of time. But Men were more frail, more easily slain by weapon of mischance, and less easily healed; subject to sickness and many ills; and they grew old and died. What may befall their spirits after death the Elves know not.
They may have later realized that it is not the greatest thing to be an immortal but at least they had the chance to realize it.While Men felt jealous because they didn't know and weren't offered to find out what it is like to be an immortal.
Also, what do all of those names that you qoted have to do with anything?
The names as you have noticed represent the way Men were treated and assumed.They were named so without having the chance to prove theirselves.And if that is Fair I wonder what the Unfair treatment might be?

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by YayGollum
They seem to have more free will or ambition or something.


Yes,they seem to have,but actually they do not.Do they have any choice?No.Elves have more choices and because of them thay face all the sorrow in ME.What is a free will when you are limited in alomost everything?When you havenot been given the best opportunities.

[Eriol]

Since the debate is drawing to a close, I will make a brief summary of the different "takes" on this matter by each team.

Tolkienologists -- We hold that each agent must be judged separately. Only when examining the sum of the actions by each agent can we arrive at any conclusion of fairness. Examining the actions of the Valar we find them wanting in this respect.

Outcasts -- Our opponents hold that fairness must be judged by the object of the action, and not the subject. In other words, We have to look at men's history as a whole, and not to any individual actions by different powers, to check whether they were treated fairly.

Now, this point of view (the Outcast's) is, well, ... unfair. It is unfair in that it only compares men with elves -- we addressed this in the opening posts, but I can't see how a judgement of fairness could be made in comparison with, say, the Orcs, following their method of viewing the matter. Following the Tolkienologist's method, it is easy -- the Valar never had any chance to interact with the Orcs, and so they can't be accused of unfairness towards them. It is also unfair in that it is subjective, not objective, and therefore opens up a neverending debate, even if we accept the comparison with Elves only. We can't really judge whether immortality is better than mortality, or whether Eru was a better teacher than the Valar.

Eru taught nothing, by the way -- he always answered men's questionings with a "look for yourself" answer. This is not a criticism of Eru, I am just pointing out that the two methods of teaching are not equivalent. Perhaps ignorance was the best thing for Men! The point is that the Valar did not know that for sure, could not know that for sure, and were therefore remiss in teaching one race and neglecting the other. They did not consider this "ignorance is good" hypothesis when dealing with the Elves... Remember, both races appeared in the Darkness of the Stars in the chronology accepted in this debate; the Valar had plenty of time to find out about men. What was Manwë doing in Taniquetil in all that time? For the Three Ages of Morgoth's Chaining, Men were abandoned in M-E.

I thought of a real-world analogy to show the failing in our opponent's take of the matter. Were the Iraqi people treated nicely throughout their history? We can think of two methods to answer this question, just as I delineated above. The Tolkienologist's method would be to judge each agent on his own, and therefore Saddam Hussein would be considered not nice, while, say, Saladin (in the 12th century) would not. But the Outcast's take on the matter would be to look at the Iraqi people throughout history, and claim that they were, indeed, treated nicely, since they had been so powerful in the 12th century. Saddam Hussein's evils would then be considered OK because the Iraqis were powerful once, it is about time they tasted the heel of a boot. In "the big picture", they were OK.

(I use the word "nice" in this analogy because "fairness" would be meaningless, an Iraqi ruler has no reason to be treat his people in a fair basis with other people, like, say, Iranians. Unlike the Valar.)

The main difference between the two situations is that Saddam is a mere human being, and his evil will be lost in the dust of history. The Valar, however, are THE POWERS OF THE WORLD. Their unfairness remains, forever. It leaves deep scars, it resonates through history. Men were ignorant, even good men like the Rohirrim, were ignorant -- and the Valar could have eased that. I think Sauron would have had a harder time if they had at least made an effort.

Note that our opponents never attacked our conclusion that the Valar were unfair. I think our team did a great job of supporting that with quotes. Their defense was along the lines of "We must not focus on the Valar, we must look at the big picture", or "sure, but Eru compensated for it". The Outcasts's position amounts to never condemning a murderer, only saying that death is the lot of us all, "in the big picture". No, we must look at the agents, not at the victims, to judge fairness. Death itself can be considered "fair"; murder is not. We will never judge anything by looking at "the big picture".

Well, this is it. The two teams have a diverging approach to the question. This post of mine was an attempt to question the approach -- not the arguments themselves. I hope to get something similar from the Outcasts attacking our take of the matter.

[YayGollum]

Woah, crazy Gil-Galad person! We only need to talk about the Valar types now? Oh, is that because it looks like they've been treated fairly by everyone else and you've mostly lost by now? Got it. Well, I already said that the fact that the Valar messed with the elves and let them hang out in paradise is just as fair as Eru messing the humans and letting them hang out with him and have a lot more control over their own fateses.

Well, if that's all we have to talk about now, I'll say ---> Didn't those Valar types hang out in paradise when the humans were showing up because those elves ran off a while ago and Mel was getting popular again and showing up to save the humans would look unfair to the elves that were suffering? But then, taking the humans to paradise would be unfair to the elves. They gots to wait around there all the time (or get really tired of Middle Earth) while the humans get to hang out with Eru. Am I a crazy person for thinking that Eru would be more fun? oh well.

About Eru, just like you can't prove what you said about it, I can't prove that he just decided to help them out because he likes getting to know the people he'll be hanging out with for forever when they die. oh well. You don't think that Eru paying attention to them is just as fair as the little Valar types paying attention to the elveses?

Who says the humans needed the Valar? *checks The Sil. and LOTR* Huh. Looks like they did alright. oh well. Does anyone get these messed up gifts that Eru guy gave humans? It looks like all of these races have free will. Maybe humans just have more imagination or opportunities (Oo! Keyword!) or abilities to make themselves superly great? oh well. Looks like you people don't feel like agreeing that the different gifts balance themselves out. Why's that?

About the wisdom type things ---> The elves and Dwarves and things show up and toss wisdom at the humans. The humans have the creativity and imagination and curiosity needed to find facts for themselves. Or is getting all of the answers tossed at you more fun than getting to seek out the answers for yourself? just wondering. If the humans got to learn from the Valar types, too, it'd be unfair to the elves.

How does getting rid of Mel not help every single type of human? oh well. Looks like you're mostly talking about the unfairness of Numenor. oh well. Those guys were helped out by the Numenoreans, weren't they? There were plenty of elves and Dwarves to help them out, too. Well, Sauron was there to mess with them. Hm. How's about I say that everything was better when they got rid of Sauron? No, I don't think that's good enough. Maybe ---> You crazy. They still had the chance to make something great out of themselves. Too bad they didn't, but they could have. just like anyone. Anyways, why would you invite a bunch of evil dudes to some paradise type place? Couldn't we say that they got what they deserved for helping the bad guys out when they didn't have to?

No Valar does something special for humans? Do we have to leave Ulmo out all the time? Can we not point out things that weren't done only for humans, but that still helped them out? We still can't say that Eru helped? Anyways, just like the elves leaving paradise, the humans heading to paradise wouldn't be good for them. The humans (obviously!) were able to go there. They were also warned not to go there. People told them that paradise would help out with immortality.

About the stars ---> Doesn't look like that quote says who the stars were made for. Looks like it says when they were made. oh well. Doesn't look like the quote says what this Elbereth person was thinking at the time, but sure, I'd agree that it was mostly the elves. Too bad we never get to see what she's thinking when the humans show up. :rolleyes: I'd say that since the stars help everyone out just as much, who they were made for doesn't matter. I make a bowlful of mashed potatoes just because it's this one guy's favorite dish. Other people eat it, too. Everyone gets the same amount. Looks fair to me.

About that next quote ---> What does that have to do with the quote of mine you tossed in? oh well. Looks like you're talking about the different messed up gifts Eru tossed at people. We already agreed that Eru was fair to everyone. Anyways, got it. Humans are jealous. Too bad. I'm sure that they'll figure out that being mortal isn't that bad. You know. Dying. Getting to hang out with Eru. Finding things out.

About the nameses ---> I thought you were talking about the Valar when you tossed that first quote down. Got it. You suddenly jumped on the elves. I didn't think that calling people names is especially fair or unfair. It's just pure evil. Do you really think that elves weren't called insulting names? I think that Dwarves or orcs or somebody came up with something. sorry it was never written. The Sil. is mostly about the elves. If it was all about humans, they'd look better, wouldn't they? oh well.

Yikes, crazy Eriol person! There's no need to toss the take of the Outcasts! Of course you wouldn't make it look as nice as yours. oh well.

We were only talking about humans and elves? Whoops! I thought I've been saying all kinds of things about the Valar recently. oh well. Maybe that's just this post. sorry for being so evilly unfair. Have I made up for it now? :rolleyes:

What's wrong with looking at the big picture? It seems more fair to me. sorry about that. Your little analogy doesn't really answer the question you asked in it. It says ---> One guy was nice, the other wasn't. Looks like it's pretty equal. I'd say that they were treated fairly. Running through history, looking at every person that ever did something fair or unfair for the people won't really help. Most would be able to figure out that history will continue to be written. sorry about that.

I gots to look at the big picture. Humans and elves were obviously treated differently by different people. They had different amounts of of fairness and chances for superly cool opportunities tossed at them. sorry about that. Overall, the humans were obviously treated fairly. Those different gifts and things. You people never said if you thought that the Valar helping the elves out was just as fair as Eru helping the humans out. I don't see how it wasn't.

These are two completely different scenarios. We agreed that Eru was fair. Too late. Why is comparing the Valar types and Eru wrong? You want me to find some way to show how the Valar were fair to humans when you can't find some way to show that the way the Valar treated the elves was equal to the help Eru tossed at the humans? oh well. You're just talking about the fact that the Valar ignored the humans when they could have been unfair to the elves and helped them. Got it.

The Valar were fair to everyone in that ---> Aule made the Dwarves and pretty much forgot about them, right? The Valar helped the elves out a lot and ended up taking them all over to paradise so they wouldn't have to worry about them anymore, right? Eru made the humans and the Valar pretty much forgot about them, right? Pay attention. Aule made the Dwarves so evilness could never corrupt them. That's just like the Numenoreans making Orthanc and not reinforcing it anymore. The Dwarves cannot be corrupted. Ever. Orthanc cannot be broken. Ever. Why worry about it anymore? The elves are the Valar type people's pets. The Valar help them out as soon as they can. They make sure that Middle Earth is nice and hospitable for them and even invite them to a cooler place. Some elves don't accept the invitation. They get another chance after they make Middle Earth nice and hospitable again, but when they don't accept that invitation, either, they get ignored. Sure, some elves accept the invitation towards the beginning. Some take the second chance. The Valar obviously like these elves. The humans show up in between the two invititations and wars. The Valar are preocupied. Eru helps out a little. just like any other race, they're grabbed by Mel and messed with. The elves act like the Valar and try helping the humans out. The Valar smile. They had all kinds of fun with the elves. The elves have all kinds of fun with the humans. Why should the Valar mess with a good thing?

[Eriol]

Thanks for the long rant, YayGollum... though you still have not contradicted the conclusion that the Valar were unfair. You also put a lot of words in our mouths...

Originally posted by YayGollum
Looks like you people don't feel like agreeing that the different gifts balance themselves out. Why's that?

Perhaps because you have not shown it :D. Again you mix Eru with the Valar with Morgoth... If we "pick" on the Valar it is because we have more information about them. Eru's motives are really beyond our guesses, as you said. Morgoth was "fair" all around, he hated everybody. Who else would we examine to check on fairness? The hobbits?

If the humans got to learn from the Valar types, too, it'd be unfair to the elves.

er... why? If the two races got the same treatment it would be unfair? Do you agree with the definition of fairness in my first post? It seems you don't. Can you offer another?

Anyways, why would you invite a bunch of evil dudes to some paradise type place? Couldn't we say that they got what they deserved for helping the bad guys out when they didn't have to?

And what about the not-so-evil dudes who rejected the summons both of the Valar and of Morgoth? Could not the Valar do something for them, and I don't mean bringing them to Aman -- the Outcasts show a great deal of difficulty in understanding that, though it was one of the first assertions of both my opening post and gate7ole's.

We still can't say that Eru helped? Anyways, just like the elves leaving paradise, the humans heading to paradise wouldn't be good for them. The humans (obviously!) were able to go there. They were also warned not to go there. People told them that paradise would help out with immortality.

An example of what I just mentioned. And yes, you can say that Eru helped. You can even say He was fair. Though we'd like some evidence :D.

We already agreed that Eru was fair to everyone.

Did we? I don't remember. I recall that in my first post a case could be argued that Eru's remedial action was inherently unfair, since it was a boon to men that was not given to Elves. This, also, is assuming the Voice was Eru's, which is still under question.

The Outcasts do not seem to realize the major effect that ignorance had on men, and how this could have been mitigated very easily by the Valar. They were never sure of what this Voice was. They were never sure of anything, in fact, since they had to find out everything for themselves. How can we justify that the Elves received knowledge directly from the Valar and men didn't?

We were only talking about humans and elves? Whoops! I thought I've been saying all kinds of things about the Valar recently. oh well. Maybe that's just this post. sorry for being so evilly unfair. Have I made up for it now? :rolleyes:

Now, Yay, I know you can read better than that :D. We are talking about humans and elves as patients, about Eru, Morgoth and the Valar as agents. It is all clear in our posts.

I gots to look at the big picture. Humans and elves were obviously treated differently by different people. They had different amounts of of fairness and chances for superly cool opportunities tossed at them. sorry about that. Overall, the humans were obviously treated fairly. Those different gifts and things. You people never said if you thought that the Valar helping the elves out was just as fair as Eru helping the humans out. I don't see how it wasn't.

We did not have to address that because nobody had asked us so far :confused:. But I will answer that now. No, it is not fair because the Valar were not aware of Eru's actions. The Valar could not plead innocence on that account, therefore. If Eärendil had taken the time to say to Manwë what I am saying here, Manwë would have to admit the Valar were negligent -- he would not answer "hey dude, you hanged out with the superly cool Eru while we were with the superly boring elves here".

(And even if he did, Eärendil would not understand -- after all, the knowledge of Andreth was a secret, and only the lorewomen knew about it, and even then they did not understand it).

The elves are the Valar type people's pets. The Valar help them out as soon as they can. They make sure that Middle Earth is nice and hospitable for them and even invite them to a cooler place.

Are you sure you belong to the Outcasts? This sounds as a Tolkienologist's argument.

The Valar obviously like these elves. The humans show up in between the two invitations and wars. The Valar are preocupied. Eru helps out a little. just like any other race, they're grabbed by Mel and messed with. The elves act like the Valar and try helping the humans out. The Valar smile. They had all kinds of fun with the elves. The elves have all kinds of fun with the humans. Why should the Valar mess with a good thing?

It seems that your summary did not talk about the kinds of fun men had, only the Valar and elves... which is fitting, as "the lot of men were unhappy" -- search through the quotes we provided to find the full quote for that. And this, of course, is why the Valar should in fact mess with "a good thing" -- because it was not so good for men, themselves.

Your summary is absolutely correct. The Valar smile. They had all kinds of fun with the elves.

How can this be construed to mean fairness towards men??

:confused:

Finally... is claiming victory, as you did, usual behavior towards the end of a debate? Well, I guess I should claim victory then.

;).

[Nóm]

Gil-Galad and Finduilas, for men not being invited to Aman, I think we have established that they were not cut out for Aman.

We also seem to agree that the valar took less action directly to aid men.

Now, Gil-Galad.... I think it incorrect to say that Iluvatar spoke with men too late, whereas the elves were met by the Valar right away.

...had the opportunity to reach Valinor and realize it was not a place where men could live,they would have changed their aims and opinions.

No, they would have become enamoured there.

If we compare what happened after the coming of the both races it is obvious that the Firstborn had better opportunities for development and surviving.


It is not obvious. Contrary it is obvious that both races had at least the same chances for surviving, it is evident by the fact that both did survive, and while the elves flocked to Aman, or faded in Middle-earth, men multiplied like flies all over the world.

Iluvatar is said to have spoke with men right after they woke up, and before they were contacted by Morgoth. And we all know from the published Silmarillion that the elves were effeted by the lies of Morgoth before Orome found them, and that some were ensnared. Doubtless those lies are what caused some elves to flee at the coming of Orome.

All elves are allowed to return to the West,but only a small part of the mankind went to Numenor.Is that fair?
But were the vari?/ Did they even know about another invitation? No. Jus as the Valar ddin't fly out to the East and try to enlighten men, and bring them to Numenor, they did not so looking for the Avari.

Since the debate is drawing to a close, I will make a brief summary of the different "takes" on this matter by each team.

Tolkienologists -- We hold that each agent must be judged separately. Only when examining the sum of the actions by each agent can we arrive at any conclusion of fairness. Examining the actions of the Valar we find them wanting in this respect.

Outcasts -- Our opponents hold that fairness must be judged by the object of the action, and not the subject. In other words, We have to look at men's history as a whole, and not to any individual actions by different powers, to check whether they were treated fairly.

Well who are we to judge what is fair, anyhow? We are men. It is in our natures to envy, and to think we have not been offered enough, or that we lack something... this is because we want more, no matter what we want more, as a race.

Each agent may be judged seperately, but we must find the average. If Melkor treated the men fairly, since he did treat them equally (so your team says, he did), and Iluvatar gave men more, and the Valar gave men less, then we must weight these things for the average. We can not look only at the Valar and say that men were treated unafir because the Valar apparantly did more for the firstborn.

Now, this point of view (the Outcast's) is, well, ... unfair.

And giving 95% of the weight to the treatment of men by the Valar is not!?

It is unfair in that it only compares men with elves -- we addressed this in the opening posts, but I can't see how a judgement of fairness could be made in comparison with, say, the Orcs, following their method of viewing the matter.
If your opening you said the elves' treatment of men is not to be considered, and thatthe treatment of them ought to be used to compare to that of men. (paraphrase)

So far you guys have only compared men with eles too. Orcs... we don't even know what they are, so we can not know how unfair their treatement might have been. If they are men or elves, then I say that they are merely a portion of men or elves (or both, if you believe that orcs are) who got the worst treatement of all. If they are without souls, some creatures, puppets of Morgoth, into which he put some of his own thought, then we must say that they were treated fairly well, as they got to thrive for age, living it up in the mountains, having nothing expected of them other than to do what they were made to do. Now if we want to toss drwaves and hobbits into the picture, then what we have is some other races who got no more attention from the Valar than did men. Elves are immortal beings, children of the Earth... these are special and more unlike men than hobbits and dwarves, we really can not understand what it is to be an elf... however these elves are, they were cut out for this contact and guidance with the Valar. They were friends of the Arda, and they did enrich it for the other races. They are a link between the Valar and the morals.

Following the Tolkienologist's method, it is easy -- the Valar never had any chance to interact with the Orcs, and so they can't be accused of unfairness towards them. It is also unfair in that it is subjective, not objective, and therefore opens up a neverending debate, even if we accept the comparison with Elves only. We can't really judge whether immortality is better than mortality, or whether Eru was a better teacher than the Valar.

Then by all means do not except comparison with elves only.We could only speculate and guess and toss around personal opinions about immortality vs. mortality... but the posts touching on this are to show that the men where no worse off because they are mortal, and most of all to show that because of the different natures of the races, they would require different treatement, if that treatment is to be fair. It also shows, as I have already pointed out, that Iluvatar did give something great to men. Sure, men may resent that the powers did not swoop down and protect them entirely, but why should the powers? men can do that on their own for the most part, even if through working with elves.. and they did after all, get much direct help from Ulmo, and even from the valar when the Host was sent against Morgoth. Are are allowed, granted this prevelige... that is in accordance with their independant and masterful nature.


Eru taught nothing, by the way -- he always answered men's questionings with a "look for yourself" answer. This is not a criticism of Eru, I am just pointing out that the two methods of teaching are not equivalent.

Nay, they are not. God himself told men how to have happiness and they decided not to listen to him. He told them to seek for answers and that they would have joy in the finding, to have handed over answers, as was done to the elves by the Valar, would have been to deprive men.


Perhaps ignorance was the best thing for Men!

Nay, learning on their own was. As Eru advised them to do. As they would not have done if directly instructed by the Valar

The point is that the Valar did not know that for sure, could not know that for sure, and were therefore remiss in teaching one race and neglecting the other. They did not consider this "ignorance is good" hypothesis when dealing with the Elves...

Where did you get this insight into Manwe and his crew's ignorance? No, Manwe was not ignorant, in his mind were things that even the Eldar could not comprehend. Manwe was closest in thought with Iluvatar, and knew most of all, his will. Manwe most likely did know much about men, that we are not told.

Now even if Manwe was ignorant of these things, it will have been ONLY because Iluvatar would have him be so, and that means that he who knew best, God, wanted it this way.

Remember, both races appeared in the Darkness of the Stars in the chronology accepted in this debate; the Valar had plenty of time to find out about men. What was Manwë doing in Taniquetil in all that time? For the Three Ages of Morgoth's Chaining, Men were abandoned in M-E.

We know that the Valar did not come to guide them. Iluvatar did.

[Nóm]

I thought of a real-world analogy to show the failing in our opponent's take of the matter. Were the Iraqi people treated nicely throughout their history? We can think of two methods to answer this question, just as I delineated above. The Tolkienologist's method would be to judge each agent on his own, and therefore Saddam Hussein would be considered not nice, while, say, Saladin (in the 12th century) would not. But the Outcast's take on the matter would be to look at the Iraqi people throughout history, and claim that they were, indeed, treated nicely, since they had been so powerful in the 12th century. Saddam Hussein's evils would then be considered OK because the Iraqis were powerful once, it is about time they tasted the heel of a boot. In "the big picture", they were OK.

To turn that about I could say: GoT would play off the good and center on the bad so as to win the arguement, whereas GoO would try to see more of the big picture... to see that all people are treated badly at times and good at others, and that what is good to one may be less good to another, and consider that.

(I use the word "nice" in this analogy because "fairness" would be meaningless, an Iraqi ruler has no reason to be treat his people in a fair basis with other people, like, say, Iranians. Unlike the Valar.)

The main difference between the two situations is that Saddam is a mere human being, and his evil will be lost in the dust of history. The Valar, however, are THE POWERS OF THE WORLD. Their unfairness remains, forever. It leaves deep scars, it resonates through history. Men were ignorant, even good men like the Rohirrim, were ignorant -- and the Valar could have eased that. I think Sauron would have had a harder time if they had at least made an effort.

The effect of an evil human ruler does too effect all that comes after. Such an evil can not be undone as though it never happend. But what this comes back to is: Men were offered the chance, and had the advice of Eru...told to seek for the answers on their own, and that they would have join in the finding. This along with the fact that the Valar who must have either know Eru's will and did it through paying less attention to men, or have not known about it because Iluvatar did not want them to, and were therefore doing Iluvatar's will even if this is the case. God had thought for men, and all that happend to men because of actions of God or the Valar, were so because of Iluvatar's will. Doesn't God know best?

Note that our opponents never attacked our conclusion that the Valar were unfair. I think our team did a great job of supporting that with quotes.

The Valar apparantly took less action for the good of men, that is a fact. Isn't it? Though, even inaction may be a way of doing things.

Their defense was along the lines of "We must not focus on the Valar, we must look at the big picture", or "sure, but Eru compensated for it".

Indeed, the big picture.

The Outcasts's position amounts to never condemning a murderer, only saying that death is the lot of us all, "in the big picture". No, we must look at the agents, not at the victims, to judge fairness. Death itself can be considered "fair"; murder is not. We will never judge anything by looking at "the big picture".


What if not all agree that the death was a murder. And we were not asked to judge if the Valar's actions were fair, but to ask if the race of men were treated fairly THROUGHOUT HISTORY, and if they have the same opportunities. We already agreed that we should not ask if they had the same opportunities, but ask if the opportunities were even.

Well, this is it. The two teams have a diverging approach to the question. This post of mine was an attempt to question the approach -- not the arguments themselves. I hope to get something similar from the Outcasts attacking our take of the matter.

That little turnabout I did above is all you will get of it. I do not think it is good to attack ones aproach while completely neglecting to attack the arguement. One might say it looks like a last resort? Now GoO has addressed the treatment of men by The Valar... as you wish to do. However, your lack of doing the same for us, your refusal to give the big picture a try while we touch of your narrow one, is not fair in my eyes.

Yes, we will admit that The Valar took less action for men, but we also look at what opportunies men had because of the very nature that Iluvatar gave to them. To deny this, or say that mere action not taken by lords of the west is a bigger disadvantage than the gift of Iluvatar, makes no sense to me. And I do not only mean the Gift or doom of death, but that of the very nature of men... who are in the words of the most wise of the exiled Noldor "too great".
I think the analogy you gave above is poor.

[Nóm]

Again you mix Eru with the Valar with Morgoth... If we "pick" on the Valar it is because we have more information about them. Eru's motives are really beyond our guesses, as you said. Morgoth was "fair" all around, he hated everybody. Who else would we examine to check on fairness? The hobbits?

Because we have more information about them? I do not buy this. I think it is because it is the most obvious people who apparantly, at first glance, neglected men more than they did the firstborn.

We know Iluvatar's motives scarcely less than those of the Valar. His notived beyond out guesses? One thing is for sure, if we are to take him as God, then we must assume that he is 'good' at least within his creation... therefore we do know that his motives are good... and that is all we need to know.
If the two races got the same treatment it would be unfair?
Yes. If the elves were left in Middle-earth under shadow of Morgoth, they would not have learned so much, and not have mastered the command over their bodies with their spirits. I reason this because it was for the reason of lifting the shadow from the spirit of the Quendi, who were at that time more easily falling into illness and dying from wounds than they later would be, that the Valar sought to remove them from Middle-earth. Now if instead, only Iluvatar had spoke to the Quendi int he earliest days, what would they have learned? They'd have been a bunch of Avari.
Now if the Valar took men to Aman? Phew! No way, would this be good.

Those are examples of how treating to races the same, would be an unfair thing. Thought you agreed earlier in the debate, that diffferent people'd require different treatment if the treatment is to be fair.

Could not the Valar do something for them, and I don't mean bringing them to Aman -- the Outcasts show a great deal of difficulty in understanding that, though it was one of the first assertions of both my opening post and gate7ole's.
If not bring them to Aman then what do you have in mind? Men survived just fine. And they did get help from the Valar both directly and indirectly.

yay and I both adressed gate7ole's concern about the men of the East, those who were for a time under Sauron.
And so what about them being under Sauron? Did he go kil them all? No. They were misguided is all, and guess what? Sauron soon came to an end and then those men where free. That was a short time in a long history. What people of Arda were not for a time under shadow?

And also, to counter this lack of knowledge that the men of the East and the Haradrim had, we mention that this is like the Avari among the Quendi. What of the Avari? They did not flock to Morgoth, or the Valar... and as I showed earlier int he debate... they were at a huge disadvantage among elves. They knew much less than the Eldar, especially the Calaquendi.

The Outcasts do not seem to realize the major effect that ignorance had on men, and how this could have been mitigated very easily by the Valar. They were never sure of what this Voice was. They were never sure of anything, in fact, since they had to find out everything for themselves. How can we justify that the Elves received knowledge directly from the Valar and men didn't?
The Edain, and especially the Numanoreans who did not go down with Numenor, had great knowledge among the race of men, and this was eventually spread and shared, even if some of it's potency was lost. That is nothing compared to all that men will later learn. Iluvatar himself said they'd find joy in the finding of answers and that they would reach wisdom from this.. Joy in the finding of the answers on their own, not being told the answers. Why then should the Valar just tell men things that they know? Men will learn more... they will fulfil the world and shape it beyond the music of the Ainur. That is, beyond what the Valar know.
Men are not elves, they do not have the same inclinations, they do not even look at the world the same way.

But I will answer that now. No, it is not fair because the Valar were not aware of Eru's actions. The Valar could not plead innocence on that account, therefore.
Again you somehow know the limit of Manwe's knowledge, Manwe who was closest in thought with Iluvatar?
If Eärendil had taken the time to say to Manwë what I am saying here, Manwë would have to admit the Valar were negligent -- he would not answer "hey dude, you hanged out with the superly cool Eru while we were with the superly boring elves here".



Well it is time to wrap things up here...

Men had the voice of Iluvatar, that was there treatement in the earliest day. Later on they contacted the elves and where made greater because of that. Remember the roles of Ulmo and Melian... from this came a strain of elf blood among men, the greatest of men, and even a hint of Ainu blood.

In a Letter from J.R.R.T. to Milton Waldman, given in the preface of the second edition to the Silmarillion (may be in Letters, I do not have that book to check) these things can be found. They all refer to the Numenoreans.

They become thus in appearance, and even in powers of mind, hardly distinguishable from the Elves - but they reamined mortal, even though rewarded by a triple or even more than trple, span of years. Their reward is their undoing - or the means of their temptation. Their long life aids their achievements in art and wisdom, but breeds a possessive attitude to these things, and desire awakes for more time for thier enjoyment. Forseeing this in part, the gods laid a Ban on the Numenoreans....

They must not set foot on 'immortal' lands, and so become enamoured of an immortality (within the world), which is against their law, the special doom or gift of Iluvatar (God), and which their nature could not in fact endure.

In the second stage, the days of Pride and Glory and grudging of the Ban, they begin to seek wealth rather than bliss. The desire to escape death produced a cult of the dead, and they lavished wealth and art on tombs and memorials.

The Downfall is partly the result of an inner weakness in Men - consequent, i fyou will, upin the first Fall (unrecorded in these tales), repented but not fully healed. Reward on earth is more dangerous to men than Punishment!

And there we have, in short, the reason that men could no go to Aman, for those of you who say they should have been invited. We see that they should not have.

But, as i said about, it sems doubtful that the Valar would have been ignorant, unless this was the will of Iluvatar, so the Valar being in the dark about men being in the dark, is something that must have been according to Iluvatar's plan for men.

The Valar foresaw the effects that Numenor would have on men, and that being around evles would have on men... these were partly good in that it brought wisdom, but there were serious ill effects that could not be avoided. This just from contact with the Eldar. Now imagine if they had contact with the mighty Valar? The Valar know much, more than we can comprehend... it is very likely that they stayed away from men either because it was best and they knew it, or because it was best so Iluvatar failed to inform the Valar enough.

But men, even though they are not bound to the world, they are the race to inhereit it, and rule it. Man are great, masters of themselves in Arda, sole masters. Not (as Yay so nicely puts it) "Valar's pets".


PS: Hmm... look who took over the world and is doing what they will with it.


We did not have to address that because nobody had asked us so far .
Asked to address one of our major points and a backbone in the underlying structure of our arguements?

[Eriol]

My goal in stating the hidden premises of both teams was to make sure of the honesty of our opponents. For if they did not have different starting premises, they would be guilty of ignoring most of our arguments, and of repeating on and on that men could not have gone to Aman. And for that I am said to be unfair. Ironic.

Our opponents -- still -- have not contradicted the conclusion that the Valar were unfair. Nóm even admitted to it in her last post a few times.

Well, isn't this what we are doing here? To see whether men were treated unfairly? We are not focusing on the bad and excluding the good, we are judging each agent on his own. That's what justice is all about. Otherwise we never judge anything, we say to the guy: "Yes, the thief stole your wallet, but look at the big picture -- you had money to begin with, be thankful, it was fair".

No, justice is not about looking at the big picture. It is about dealing with specific acts, specific agents.

Most of our opponents argument is based on speculation. "It would have been bad...", "It was better this way...", "Manwë probably knew..."

First, note how these speculations skip over the issue of fairness. "Better" does not mean "fair". Morgoth was fair, we all agreed on that. "Better", in the ultimate analysis, is the domain of Eru only, since he is the One governing History. "Fair", on the other hand, is the duty of everyone. As Aragorn said to Éomer, when Éomer asked how are men supposed to judge when fairy tales sprout up from the grass: "You have to judge as you always judged".

And so do we. We don't absolve the actions the Valar took at year 1 because of the unforeseen effects that took place at year 15000. Fair is fair, among men and elves -- and among the Valar. Are you really supporting the idea that the Valar allowed Sauron to rule Middle-Earth on the second age, preying on men's ignorance that the Valar clearly could have mitigated, because "it was better this way"?

The opponents case would be much strengthened by two quotes: One by Eru, telling Manwë to keep his hands off men; another saying that "the lot of the Avari was unhappy". For this is implicit in their arguments, but we have not seen any evidence for it. Comparison of men with Avari is really stretched. Men never met any Valar but Morgoth; some of them, a small handful compared to the whole race, listened to a Voice that did not show itself or make any other sign than being listened to; in the meantime the most powerful and beautiful of the Valar was around telling them that the Voice was a liar and wanted to eat them.

Avari, on the other hand, were always free. Morgoth never talked to them. They heard Oromë arriving and got away. Are we to suppose they never came back? No, of course they talked with the proto-Eldar when Oromë left. I think of the Avari's reasoning as equal to that of Morgoth's agent in Estolad mentioned in the Sil (no quotes, sorry), that the West was a sham, there was no bliss, and the best we can do is live our lives. Not at all similar to Morgoth's worship. And I never heard that their lot was "unhappy", either, or that Sauron held them as slaves.

This penchant for looking at the "big picture" has some interesting results. So Melian was fair towards men because through her, Ainu blood was shared with men? Do you mean that when Melian met Thingol she was thinking about men? Because "fair" does not include unintended consequences. It is clear to me that this boon should be credited to Eru. I think it very amazing that we should judge Melian's actions by their effects on the Numenóreans, centuries after the act itself, decades after Melian left Middle-Earth never to return.

I guess Denethor was very fair, then, for his acts resulted in Faramir and Éowyn meeting in the Houses of Healing and therefore becoming Princes of Emyn Arnen. Or you could say that the Witch-King was fair, because his role in destroying the kingdom of Arnor ultimately resulted in the triumphant return of Aragorn.

Yes, we can agree that Eru is good, and that he governs History for the best. These examples show it, indeed. But Eru's goodness does not mean that the individual agent is fair.

"Men survived just fine"? So did Faramir. Does this condone Denethor's actions? Survival is now the ultimate judge? Are we strict Darwinists now?

:D

Again you are judging an action by an unforeseen effect. The Wallet argument applies, an action must be judged on itself.

So Men are not the Valar's pets? Then their treatment was unfair, by definition. It may even have been "better" for Men, due to Eru's actions, but the Valar did not know that, could not know that (we have several quotes saying that they do not understand men), and therefore were guilty of favoritism. Can't we assume that if the Valar took Men under their wings Eru would have managed it? You picture this scenario as a disaster. Why can't Eru deal with it? He can deal with Morgoth but not with his own allies?

The Valar knew just this: There are two races of Children. They are both the fruit of Eru's thoughts, the Valar made no contribution to them. And we love them both. (Since the Ainulindalë, in fact). Given that, how can one explain the flagrant favoritism? Because it "turned out better", even though the Valar had nothing to do with it?

Try explaining that to your own children when you give one of them a gift and the other, nothing.