Religion: A debate

[Anamatar IV]

The recent talks of a religion guild at TTF inspired me to this thread. I would like a debate with ONE (1) other person. This person shold believe in religion. A religion in general. It doesn't matter if it is Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or anything, just someone with a religion.

The debate is simple: Pro religion, con religion. It is a debate about religion in general. This isn't a debate centered about a religion in general. You can use examples from the religion you follow but I don't wanna see a post saying why your religion is the one to follow or what your religion preaches.

Now, I want one volunteer, first one to post is accepted but you must promise not to get upset or start arguing over this debate. I will promise the same, but I just don't want a huge contreversey to result over this debate meant in good heart.

So who is willing to accept this challenge?:)

[Eriol]

I would take it, but so far it is too vague. This kind of thing turns out into a exchange of horrendous examples of nasty behavior by religious / non-religious people 99% of the time. Crusades, Hitler; Inquisition, Communism; etc. etc.

It is hard to separate religion from human nature. So I don't know if anything worthwhile will come of it.

But I'd do it just for the heck of it ;)

[Anamatar IV]

Woohoo! A debate is sprung!:D

I don't think the debate is too vague, maybe just too simple? It's religion: Good or bad.

Since you are the challenger, you can post the first argument, Eriol.

[Eriol]

It is too vague because Good or Bad have a lot of implicit questions. Good for whom? Who is the subject of the question? Me? Any human? Mankind? The Universe?

:D

Good-in-itself (or bad-in-itself) is a category that does not apply to many concepts, and certainly not religion. So we have to answer the question of who is being benefited/harmed, and in what way, and why, before we even begin the debate.

[Anamatar IV]

I would say for any human. Not the universe, because that is based on religion (or vice versa). Not mankind because without religion mankind would be sleeping in caves, so it was obviously good for that. Is Religion good for an average person?

[Eriol]

One more question to be answered -- what is "good"? I'm serious here. If religion is true but brings pain and suffering, is it good? If it is false but brings peace, is it good?

There are three major standards of judgement: truth, goodness(i.e. morality), and beauty. Do we have to use all three when discussing religion?

By the way, I'm too lazy to do any deep research on this (and I'm rather busy as well), so we could just keep on chatting as we are doing right now. I think this format is good, without any deep essays covered in quotes :D.

Also, I choose the side that religion is good (duh), whatever you decide on these minor matters.

[Anamatar IV]

Well I don't think it can ever be proven that what a religion yes is truthful or false. So does it do more good morally or more bad morally. It does good because it provides something to believe in, but likewise it does bad by forcing you to believe in something.

Hehe, yes, no posts the size of Kentucky filled with Biblical language that takes an hour to interpret, right?;)

[Anamatar IV]

Ehm, Eriol? You there? Should I make the first post?

[Eriol]

I'm here :D

I think the terms of the debate are still uncertain, Anamatar. Look at this quote from you in the first post of this thread:

This person should believe in religion.

The assumption behind this sentence is that whether religion is TRUE or not does not matter, and that a debate can be established on these terms. Well, I'm not so sure... I don't think we can examine any field of human endeavour without taking into account its truth. We could frame a debate about Nazism in the same way, with "a person that should believe in Nazism", and I don't think we would learn a lot from it if we were not allowed to question whether Nazi theories -- I am talking about theory, not practice, I am not talking about concentration camps and such -- are true.

The way the debate is framed religion could well be a drug, the famed "opiate of the masses". If it keeps them happy, it is good. I am sure this is the line I would have to take if I was not allowed to question the truth of any single religion, and I don't feel comfortable with it.

I believe in religion because I think it is true. The same goes for all of my beliefs. The side effects are irrelevant. If religion is false, then no matter what side effects it has, whether it makes people happy or not -- it is wrong and an evil.

[Anamatar IV]

"This person should believe in religion."

Well what I meant was believe in A religion.

Well I don't think it can ever be proven that what a religion yes is truthful or false. So does it do more good morally or more bad morally. It does good because it provides something to believe in, but likewise it does bad by forcing you to believe in something.

So erm uh where is need for clarification? Maybe I just don't see it as it was my idea...:o

[Eriol]

Well, what about this "forcing one to believe"? If you think it is the truth, no one is forcing you to believe in anything. You are forcing yourself, so to speak, if you are a honest man.

My point is that judging religion by results is the wrong way to do it. We must judge it by its accuracy, whether it is true or not. If it is true and has bad results, it is still true and therefore good, no matter the bad results (which are accidents, not of the essence).

My take on that debate would be either to prove some part of my religion (such as a personal God) or to prove the "cosmetic" nature of religion, saying that the saints were a good thing, and having to deny that the Spanish Inquisition was as bad as it was made to be... I wouldn't like to follow this "cosmetic" take :(.

But if you want me to, go ahead and post first! Tell me all the bad effects of religion...

[Anamatar IV]

I'm in the process of making a post and will post soon...

[Anamatar IV]

Thol's thread reminded me of this. You sure are getting into a lot of religion debates, Eriol.:D

Err but since you and Thol are in one already and this one is a bit sketchy, I'll work on the topic and get back to you on it...

[Eriol]

Well, the religious topics keep coming after me :D. I enjoy them, too.

[Jesse]

I'll take this debate! I am not for religion, for I'm an Atheist. However, I am willing to debate Christianity, since I know alot about the faith.