Judgment - Round 1: Outcasts vs. Tolkienology

[Ithrynluin]

The debate can be found here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11787).

The judges are:

Chymaera, for the Guild of Ost-in-Edhil
ithrynluin, for the Guild of Scholars
Niniel, for the Guild of the Periaur
Scatha, for the Guild of Elves/Dwarves

[Dragon]

does that mean only the judges can vote? or just that only their votes count?:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Nóm]

Thanks for hosting this, ithrynluin. A lot of thanks to all of the other judges too.

It was fun debating along side Yay. I think that is the first time I ever had, in any thread. :D

Thanks Yay!

GoT, thanks for debating against us! Believe me, I have a hell of a time finding a debate around here!

[Eriol]

Yes, a big round of applause for our host, and for the judges! And also for the Guild of Outcasts' team, it was a really pleasant debate all around!

And, of course, I'd like to thank all members of my team for the wonderful effort they put into the debate.

I have a newfound respect for debaters all around, this is hard stuff!

[YayGollum]

Uh, huh. Too bad our other two people didn't feel like helping out. oh well. I love the options on the poll. I was just about to vote for us. *sniff* Anyways, I found out that I don't like this Eriol person. Very insulting. :eek:

[Eriol]

Originally posted by YayGollum
Uh, huh. Too bad our other two people didn't feel like helping out. oh well. I love the options on the poll. I was just about to vote for us. *sniff* Anyways, I found out that I don't like this Eriol person. Very insulting. :eek:

:confused:

My apologies...

Can you please tell me where I insulted you, Yay? In a PM if you prefer? This was my first debate and I didn't meant to insult anyone, I'd like to know where I did that to prevent it from happening again.

It won't be the first time in my life I insulted a person without noticing it... :(

[Scatha]

Now I have spent two hours of reading this debate, weighing all arguement presented and also carefully keeping an eye on each post.

My vote goes to the Tolkienologists, as they have presented a much stronger case, that could not be (or just wasn't) countered by the Outcasts.


On a sidenote: Eriol did not insult anyone in his posts, he made a pun at you Yay, which you misread. That is a difference.
If anyone directed an insult at anyone, it was YOU who stated that he was crazy. THAT is a direct attack, so if anyone should be complaining, it should be vice versa.

[Finduilas]

I would also very much like to thank you for the debate.It was an experience I had never had before.I promise to be much more active in the next debate since I already know how it is run.
Thank you and sorry if I have insulted anyone too. :(

[Lhunithiliel]

People, what are you doing?:eek:

Why turning a debate into a battle arena?
I am completely sure that NO ONE ever meant to hurt and/or insult anybody!!!

So, calm down and let the judges do their job!

[Niniel]

Wow, that was a long read, and a very interesting one too! I would like to congratulate both parties on presenting their case in very elaborate and unsightful posts.
However, I am more convinced by the argument of the Tolkienologists; my opinion after reading all this is that the Valar were not fair to Men, because they did not give them equal opprtunities (going to Aman, teaching them etc.) as they gave the Elves. Ulmo excepted maybe, but the other Valar payed more attention to Elves than to Men. It may be that this treatment was fair because Eru had created Men and Elves with a different nature (accepting that you can assign certain characteristics to a whole race, which I think is impossible), so that they deserved to be treated in such a way as was most appropriate to each race, but the Valar did not know this. The Valar did not know what the role of Men in the world was and how the history of Arda would unfold, since Eru had not told them. It might be that bringing men to Aman and in general treating them as equal to the Elves might have proved disastrous, but it was unfair that they did not give Men a chance in the first place. So the Valar had really no reason to treat Men any different than the Elves, and so were unfair, even if in acting this way unknowingly they fulfilled Eru's wishes.
Therefore my vote goes to the Tolkienologists, who have argued this opinion in the most convincing way. Congrats guys!

[YayGollum]

Well, sure, maybe I am an achingly sensitive person when it comes to people kidding around with me when I don't know them well enough to do that that's what they're doing. Silly me. There were plenty of things that this person said that to you people, I obviously unreasonably thought was offensive. Whoops! Looks like you people don't care to hear it. At least this Eriol person asked to know how he could improve. Anyways, I wasn't trying to get in anyone's way by saying that craziness. Doesn't look like I did. And yes, me tossing little adjectives like ---> "crazy, evil, and scary" mean nothing. It's a bad hobbit. Looks like this Eriol person wasn't the only one that's been misunderstood.

[The-Elf-Herself]

*feels really bad about having evil people yell at her to stay off the computer and so being unable to join in these debates. Frivolous idea indeed!:rolleyes: *

Anyway, I was reading through it and deeply regretting that I was unable to post. Good arguments on both sides.

[Ithrynluin]

The judging of this debate (and indeed of any debate!) should not be too influenced by one's personal views on a particular topic, but on how well the topic was presented, argued and countered from each team's point of view. Up till now, I myself was convinced that Men were treated very carelessly and were not properly taken care of and attended to. Reading this debate, I was up for a surprise of sorts.

Nóm argued her case excellently and gave us much food for thought. I was especially amazed at how well the 'downside of being an Elf' was portrayed. To the general readership, Elves seem like the perfect creatures, having a blissful eternal life, and being plagued by little other than Melkor (especially those of Aman). Things are not so cheerful beneath the surface - they can fade, they are bound to Arda for ever, and age along with it, whereas men depart and are taken care of by Eru. It is not strange that the story of Beren and Luthien - who became mortal is also known as 'Release from Bondage'.

The following passages left the biggest impression upon me:

And what would men do in Aman, if they could live there? They are most inclined to evil , and would surely try to shape Aman to their own liking, and this would not be to the liking of elves and Valar, but even more so it would not be to the liking of other men, and their would still be contests for Kingships, and for resources.

And grow weary in a time so long that men can't comprehend it, while our utter end approaches, and the other race, that of men, got to leave the world before this could happen to them, and go out into Ea and do who knows what, but whatever it is, they must have been ment for it, and their time spent in our aging world was just a passing moment.

they heard the voice of Iluvatar ... something that did not happen for elves. He gave them guidance and counsel

Men would not be content in the blissfulness of Aman - it was not in accord with their character. Therefore, the fact that they weren't invited to Aman can hardly be used as an argument.

The GoT had the easier side to argue IMHO, and the premise that Men were treated unfairly can be more easily and obviously defended.

Therefore I give the debate to the Outcasts, by the narrowest of margins.

Eriol, gate7ole, Gil-Galad and Finduilas - you have fought for your case extremely well. Finduilas, congrats on your first debate which was well-argued and defended from your part.

Yay, good job as well. I would only advise you to use quotes for some of your arguments, because they back it up and people can see 'the truth' right here right now.;)

[Chymaera]

Congratulations to the Outcasts and the Tolkienologists on a great debate.

I found each of your posts well done and to have merit. I had great diffculty deciding who had won. Both side brought forth compelling arguments concerning fairnes, and unfairness, justice, and injustice. All of which places a great weight on me, now that I have to play judge and make a decision.

In this case I will vote for the Draw.

Both teams may be disappointed by this as you have every right to feel that you have won. In this I agree with you I feel that you have both won and I cannot take that away from the other team.

Thank you to the ithrynluin for playing Host for this debate and giving me the opportunity to participate as a Judge.

[Nóm]

Yay, good job as well. I would only advise you to use quotes for some of your arguments, because they back it up and people can see 'the truth' right here right now.

In the past I have debated using little quotes, and even here I left much out that could have been included, but I have to say that while it might be needed for many judges or readers, my own opinion is that they should be used sparingly, and if the opponant questions something, then they should be provided.

Too bad it doesn't really work that way. I have been called on not backing things up with quotes and it quite anoyed me since all that I said could of course have been backed up with quotes (furthmore this was several months ago and all that I said could have been backed from LotR alone... so I know folks knew it). But since then I have used them more in debates. In part because I've since read a great part of HoME that many others have not, and therefore they need to see why I say what I say, but also in part I do it just for the judges, any who might think I am pulling things out of the air when I am not.

But thanks again to the judges, I know what a pain it is to have to read through a long debate that interests us little.

I like to ask potential judges if they find it interesting (or ask people I've seen reading it at 'Who's Online'), before I ask them to judge. This way people are less troubled to judge, and are probably better judges having read with more interest. But sometimes it's hard to find enough judges that fit this.

[Chymaera]

I hope that my post above now shows the seriousness and interest that I took in this debate.

[Niniel]

My first post might have suggested that I voted for the Tolkienologists because they supported my personal opinion; however this is not the case. Before I read this whole thread I had never in so much depth considered the question of the fairness of the Valar; it was only after reading it that I formed my own opinion, which then turned out to be that of the Tolkienologists. This must mean they had the best arguments :)
So I did in my judgement mainly consider the validity of the points made by both parties, not whether or not they coincided with my own opinion.

[YayGollum]

Yes, yes, yes. I'm sure that quoteses might help out every now and then. Lots of people have told me that I'd be a lot more helpful if I used them. Ack! sorry about that. I'm not the greatest at using crazy computer type capabilities. I'm technologically allergic. I know how to type and play with the mouse. oh well. *hides*

[Gil-Galad]

Yay,quotes do not make the whole work.They just support our ideas.We are deabating on Tolkien's works,and the best way to support your side is to use the author's words,cause there is no stronger proof than his words.That is why I think that using quotes is one of the best way for debating(we are discussing literature actually).And the question is not how many quotes someone use,but how good he does that.

What is more,I do not think that the best way to judge is to say "Draw".That can be considered as escaping from responsibility.But that is my personal opinion and I don't want to offend anyone.

Yay,Nym,I'm glad I had the chance to debate with you.It was a great honour for me.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
What is more,I do not think that the best way to judge is to say "Draw".That can be considered as escaping from responsibility.But that is my personal opinion and I don't want to offend anyone.


GG, judging a draw is not indicative or reflective of how well the judge has read and pondered a debate. When he/she feels that both teams were equally persuasive (or the opposite) it is his/her right - or moreover, obligation - to conclude the debate with a draw.
Is a draw really so strange in this case? Both sides argued marvellously and I myself almost voted for a draw.

[Gil-Galad]

...........I just feel the things this way.The topic is really impressive and I have the feeling that the truth is not somewhere in the middle,but in one of the both sides.Ours or theirs.

[YayGollum]

It's not that huge of a deal, Gil-Galad person. This ithrynluin person that keeps evilly changing his avatar is making all kinds of sense to me. Maybe we both just had some really good arguements and we weren't able to completely prove each other wrong. sorry about that. Maybe neither of our pointses were achingly persuasive enough. Doesn't matter that much.

[Melian]

Although I'm a rare guest, I did take my time to read the whole of this wonderful debate.

So...what can I say? I'd like to congratulate both teams for the vigourous debating. Albeit a long debate, it was worth reading for the effort you had put into it.

However, my vote goes to The Tolkienologists, and that's not because I belong to the same guild. My reasons for supporting them was the outstanding quality of their posts as a whole team. Their pieces completed each other, their entire argument seemed excellently arranged. In the long run, I think that Outcasts (despite Nym's fantastic performance!!!!) could not rival Tolkienologists.

I should like especially to express my pleasure of reading Nym's posts, the outstanding logic in Eriol's contemplation, and the comparisons used by Gil-Galad.

All in all, folks, it was a great job all of you did. And though Tolkienologists are a little ahead for me, there are generally no losers here!

[baragund]

Hi guys...

Since we seem to have a draw here, Ithrynluin asked me to judge the debate and cast a fifth vote that would break the tie.

My vote isn't too expensive. A bottle of high qualtiy single malt scotch would be more than adequate:D

Seriously though, I'll try to digest the debate post my vote with reasoning within a day (I hope!).

[Lhunithiliel]

LOL
What would you prefer to digest it with? ;) :D
Perhaps I could ask Mrs.Maggott to prepare some delicious meal for you out of her famous mushrooms...:D

And BTW, I thought that this debate was won by the Tolkienologist!
What is this "draw" situation now!!!!!:eek: :eek:

[Elendil3119]

Remember, when this debate ended, the rules were still such that the 5th judge was a poll. Apparently, the poll ended out to be a tie anyways. Not sure how, but it did... But I also thought the GoT was declared to have officially won. :confused:

[Lhunithiliel]

Oh, your "job" is very much needed, Elendil, as there has been reached a decision that each debate would have been judged by 5 judges in order to avoid ties.
And as I have seen, other debates from Round 1 have already been checked by additionally appointed judges.

Take your time, read and we are all waiting for your decision :cool:

[Elendil3119]

Ack! Now I'm a judge??:eek: Perhaps you were meant to say "baragund"...;) But if I'm needed, I'd be willing to be an extra judge for this debate. :confused:

[Lhunithiliel]

Oooops! :o
I made a mistake about the names, guys! Sorry!
Yes, I was in fact talking to Baragund...

But, hey... Elendil, I'll ask M.M. to cook an extra- portion for you too :) :D :D

[YayGollum]

Yikes! The evil other team is trying to bribe a judge? oh well. *heavy sigh* What else should I have expected? :rolleyes: Anyways, am I crazy, or wouldn't this other team win by one vote unless this last guy votes for us? We're looking for a tie, not a tie-breaker. That wouldn't be possible in this, right? Or did I just pay attention to the other votes wrong?

[Aulë]

Geez- trust you lot to talk yourselves into being confused ;)

The situation is that the poll has been replaced by a 5th judge (Neutral) for the tournement.
To make things fair, each of the 1st Round debates has to use the same system, so each of the hosts has been asked to select a neutral judge to replace the poll's vote.

So far:
ithrynluin (Neutral): GoO
Niniel (Periaur): GoT
Chymaera (OiE): Draw
Scatha (GoE/D): GoT
baragund (GoS): ?

Currently, the GoT has 2.5 votes
and the GoO has 1.5 votes

[Finduilas]

Originally posted by Aulë
Currently, the GoT has 2.5 votes
and the GoO has 1.5 votes

Hmm...And what if baragund gives his vote to the GoO and the situation is Draw again?
Will a sixth judge be chosen?:confused:

[Aulë]

Then it will be called a draw.
Both the GoT and GoO will get 1 point in the Tournament (compared to 3 points for a win)

[Eriol]

I hope you have the assent of every Guild, Aulë... to avoid establishing a dangerous precedent.

I'm sure you can get it.

[Aulë]

No, I'm not going to ask all the Guilds for consent.
This Tournament shall be fair, and to do so, the 5th judge must not be a poll for ANY of the debates.
If anyone complains- I will not care.

[Eriol]

A fair tournament does not involve changes of rules without the assent of every guild. I'm not talking about this particular debate, the GoT already agreed with it, since we were the first to push for the 5th judge. We WANT the fifth judge. That's not the point.

I am hereby complaining. You should not change the rules of the Tournament out of your own head, or with a poll. Rules are made to be followed. The rules were set out at the beginning, and if any Guild (remember, the GoT already agreed with the change in the rules) disagrees with it, it is NOT FAIR towards that guild to change the rules after the tournament has begun.

So go ahead, don't care -- but I am complaining.

[Finduilas]

Now, please, don't turn this into a quarell!
Can I just ask something:
Now, you say that the rule about the 5th judge was made later and it was not an initial one, right?
If so I DO think that we should ask the other Guilds too about the judge or at least to be told that there is a new rule though I believe that this is a very Fair way of judging and I completely agree with its creation.

[Eriol]

These are my views too Finduilas, though "to be told about it" is not enough. When you enter a tournament you agree with the rules, and they can't be changed if you disagree. But certainly I approve of the new rule. Which makes this quarrel really strange.

[Finduilas]

So I think that the best decision is to let Aule finish his job...
But I also think that he should try to accept some recomendations too.:)
For example, why doesn't he start with telling the other Guilds about the new rule..?;)

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Aulë
No, I'm not going to ask all the Guilds for consent.
This Tournament shall be fair, and to do so, the 5th judge must not be a poll for ANY of the debates.
If anyone complains- I will not care.

I was letting him do his job until this post. It is quite clear that he does not intend to "do his job" regarding this, unfortunately.

EDIT: Just to dismiss allegations that we are afraid of the 5th judge: Baragund, we are not afraid of your judgement.

;)

Seriously, we have plugged for a 5th judge for a long time. I welcome you to this task. Good luck.

[YayGollum]

There already was a poll, and if people from all of the guilds have been paying attention they would know about it. Haven't people been saying that all of the debates will have five judges now? It was talked about in the second round thing and noone complained. That I know of. *twiddles thumbs as he waits for this round's judging to be over with*

[baragund]

Whooo Boy!! I'm beat!

This was tough, judging a debate between some of the best minds in this forum. I decided to print a hard copy of the debate so I could jot down notes along the way and easily refer back and forth among posts. 41 pages of 12 point text!

The question "Is the race of Men in general treated fairly and had the same opportunities that other races had throughout the history of Middle Earth" is a HUGE question and strikes at the very essence of JRRT's mythology and his personal philosophy. One could easily discuss this for much longer than the week given for this debate. It could have (and maybe should have) been broken down into more bite-size pieces.

The question was argued on both sides based on how Men were treated by the Valar, Eru and Morgoth compared to the Elves. I found it interesting that there wasn't much discussion of the other races. Not that I'm complaining because the printout would have been 100 pages easily :) but I think there could have been some interesting arguments presented to support either position.

Now both sides agreed that Morgoth's treatment of Men no better or worse than the other races; he hated everybody equally. So the point to be won or lost boiled down to whether or not Eru's special gifts to Men and his guidance at their birth balanced out the Valar's seemingly preferential treatment of the Elves.

GoO presented a case that would even the playing field between Men and Elves by discussing how not all elves heeded the calls to Aman, and compared the Avari to the groups of men who did not listen to The Voice and did not choose to travel west. They also discussed the down side of being immortal; the burden of countless centuries of memory and experiences resulting in a weariness and a fading that men would not have to worry about. They discussed Men's ability to expand, multiply and eventually dominate ME despite the lack of intervention by the Valar and despite Morgoth's evil influence. They also discussed Men's Free Will as a liberating factor, resulting in an existence on ME that could be considered more fulfilling than the elves who were so much more bound to the earth and to their fates that their existence could be described as being on auto-pilot (my words). Finally, they implied that much greater things await Men when they die in that they get to "hang out with Eru" as Yay put it.

To counter this, GoT presents a case where Men are perpetually treated as second class citizen's by the Valar. All of the things the Valar did for the Children of Iluvatar were primarily for the benefit of the elves, and any benefit that fell to men were coincidental. Specific things done for Men like the creation of Numenor were for a rather small segment of human society, the Edain who sided with the elves while the bulk of mankind were left to fend for themselves. They also argued Eru's intervention at the beginning of Men's existence as not very substantial, quickly petering out to instructions to "go find out for yourselves". I got a distinct impression that Eru was being like a busy parent who didn't want to be bothered by the nagging of his children "Daddy how do I do this? Daddy how do I do that? Daddy, Daddy, Daddy!!" Maybe, like many parents, Eru got tired of hid children's nagging and told them in so many words to stop bothering him.

There was a lot of discussion about Men's inability to travel to Valinor, that the Valar did not allow this because Men would expire more quickly being in the presence of the gods, and that their initial bliss would quickly turn to discontent and strife because they were mortal. Maybe this would be a great topic for another debate but it struck me that a neat solution to this dilemma would be to allow both elves and men to come and go to Valinor at will. Men would get the message pretty quickly that Valinor would be a great place to visit but not to live since they would be expiring so quickly. Their curiosity would be appeased and everyone is happy!

What made me decide who posted the best arguments was to think about the treatment of Men in terms of how real life children are treated by their parents. They say that a huge portion of a childs mental and psychological development is set by the time they are 4 years old. This means that early intervention, teaching and support is critical to a well-adjusted life later on. GoT successfully argued the elves had this early intervention but men did not. GoO's points about the Avari didn't fully counter this because, like real children, not all respond to good upbringing. Also, I think GoO's slipped a little toward the end of the debate when they started mixing men's survival with fair treatment and opportunity .

I think Guild of Tolkienologists won the day but it was a WONDERFUL debate. I really enjoyed reading it and unless I can figure out how to make a half dozen clones of Maedhros in the next few weeks, I'm dreading when us Scholars have to debate either of you. Unless we are absolutely on our best game, we're gonna get pasted!:rolleyes:

[YayGollum]

*sniff* oh well. *resists the urge to continue trying to prove his pointses*