Judgment - Round 1: OiE vs. Elves/Dwarves

[Aulë]

The Debate thread can be found here: http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11780

Official Judges:

Aulë (Periaur - Host Guild)
Beleg_strongbow (GoT)
YayGollum (GoO)
Inderjit_S (Scholars)
Idril (Neutral)

The poll will be open for 5 days, but will not count towards the result.

All members are welcomed to post judgement and comments in this thread.

[Bethelarien]

Checking in, as ordered.

Good debate, OiE. You guys really smashed me to pieces. :D

[Ancalagon]

Well done Beth, it was a shame you were left to defend both Guilds you represent, alone. Your team-mates should hang their heads, because it matters nothing if they feel daunted by the task, the only way to learn how to debate is to contribute to it.

Even if one feels somewhat apprehensive about the task, even the fact they are unacustomed to debating, they ought to rise above their concerns and understand that as a team, they can acheive a great deal together, irrespective of the final outcome, that is the point of being in a team. However, in this case it seems that one part (yourself) was greater than the sum of the rest.

[Bethelarien]

Thank you for that, Anc. I needed to hear that. Now I'm much less angry at my "teammates"! But there's no doubt that OiE won. You guys really beat me badly.

[Idril]

Congratulations Beth - you gave it a jolly good try - more than your team mates did (shame on them:(). Well done though, it's the effort that counts as much as the points of the debate. You may have lost the debate (not through your fault), but you've won the respect of many on the forum.

[Gothmog]

Beth. As Idril has said, you have won the respect of many on the forum myself included, for shouldering the task of the whole of your team and having a go.

At the least you can say that you tried. Your team-mates do not have that comfort. And it is my opinion that you tried very well indeed I would be very happy to be in a team that included you as a member.

[YayGollum]

I voted for the Ost-in-Edhil people. What does that name mean and why are people so evil that they have to write things in other languages that not everyone is able to translate? oh well. I thought that the Dwarf team had a good point, but it looks like these other people were able to prove it wrong. Was there no other way to go about the Dwarf people's arguement?

[Bethelarien]

Ost-in-Edhil means Fortress or City of the Elves. And YG, it was not the Dwarves, it was just me, and Elf. And I could have supported my arguments better had some of my team members participated.

And thank you all for your supportive comments. I really appreciate it.

[Chymaera]

Congratulations to you Bethelarien on your first debate, well done. I hope that your team can get in there with you on future debates. I am finding this tournement to be one of the best community building activities that I have seen on the Forum.

So to the members of the Guilds of Dwarves and Elves, don't miss out, remember this is only Round One we have the whole summer ahead of us :D .

This was my debate first too;).

[Beleg]

I'll start off by giving the reasons behind my decision.
Anc In my opinion started off brilliantly, perhaps the best post in the whole debate. It was further supplemented by a notable explaination presented by Gothmog.
Beth in her first post raised some excellent points but wasn't able to continue on them. Most of her post was answered excellently by the following posts of the Austin's.

Chymera's last post touched up some of the most important points that needed to be explained if the theme of the question was to be answered in proper.
Anc helped in answering why Morgoth's curse wasn't applicable on Finduilas and wasn't on work in her case. Chymera tried clearing up the reasons behind Finduilas change of heart.
Beth started on a bright note and presented points of validity but she couldn't just counter arguement the arguements presented by the Guild of Austin-Edhilians.
So I award my vote to Ost-In-Edhil people.


P.S: To say it frankly, I was disappointed by the level of participation on part of D/E. Their absense of arguements just made the case easier on part of Austin-Edhilian's.

[Aulë]

When I first saw the topic, my first instinct was to say "Yep, Morgoth's curse was the reason", but Anc's outstanding opening post changed my opinion straight away by showing that Morgoth's curse would not have effected Finduilas.
Beth did well to counter it, but Gothmog shot down her reasoning instantly.
I feel that Beth could have gone into more depth about her opinions, but because of a lack of help from her team-mates she was unable to do so.
Chymaera and Gothmog then put the result of the debate beyond doubt with their final posts.
A debate can almost never be won with two posts, and Beth was sorely let down by her comrades.

Therefore my vote goes to Ost-in-Edhil.

I believe that this topic could have had a heap more thought put into it, and this debate didn't give it justice. I hope that an open debate with this topic could be arranged in the future.

[Inderjit S]

Well...a good deabte and one that I feel rather strongly about. (Though this is not the time to air my opinions on the topic itself.) I feel that Edhil were the better debaters and though I was rather tempted to give a 'sympathy vote' for Beth, because of the cowardice of her teammates, I must say that she did put up a decent argument, but as the others say, she was taken down by the impressive, combined might of Oi-E and therfore my vote goes for O-i-E.

[YayGollum]

Got it, Bethelarien person. I'd still love an answer from these fortress or city of the elves people. Maybe I should just PM whoever's in charge. :rolleyes: And yes, I knew that it was just you. These other people were tossing all kinds of rants in here about it. I just like calling it the Dwarf team since I like Dwarves better. Whoops!

[Chymaera]

We are the Eldar and live in a fortress.

Because we are so very old and frail and must protect ourselves:)

You know the need for wheelchair access ramps and washroom facilties and the need of near by intencive care units.

YayGollum you shouldn't roll your eyes like that, one day they might get stuck that way. ;)

[Aulë]

The poll has now closed.

Congratulations to the Ost-in-Edhil who have scored a 5-0 victory which places them on top of the Tournament ladder.
In the next Round, Ost-in-Edhil shall be facing off against the Scholars, and the Elves/Dwarves have the task of taking on the Outcasts and will hope to do a bit better than this round.

[YayGollum]

Got it, Chymaera person. The answer to my question must be ---> You like to write things in other languages that not everyone is able to translate because you're old and need protection and wheelchair access ramps and washroom facilties and nearby intencive care units. Makes all kinds of sense. :rolleyes:

[Turgon]

Alternatively a quick look in the index of the Silmarillion would tell you all you need to know...:)

[YayGollum]

Shush! Ack! I know that! I'm just wondering why people have to make names up that some people can't translate. Not everyone has a copy of The Silmarillion, if you can believe it. :eek: :rolleyes:

[Bethelarien]

OK, what smart aleck voted for GoE? Just out of curiosity, you understand.

Congrats on your tremendous victory, OiE. It was indeed well-deserved.

[Idril]

Aule has asked me to be the 5th judge in this debate (my decision will be replacing the poll).

This debate was just a bit lopsided as the GoE/D were under-represented.

I have to give the Ost-in Edhill team my vote as they presented a thorough and comprehensive arguement, which was not adequately countered by the GoE/D due to the lack of participation by 3/4 of the team.

I would like to congratulate Beth for her valiant effort against the team of ancients, opps, I meant Elders :D.

& Congratulations to Ost-in-Edhill.