Debate Tournament - Round 2: OiE vs. Scholars Hall. [Archive]

Turgon

06-03-2003, 07:30 PM

Did greed diminish the Dwarven Race?

It is the posistion of the Ost-in-Edhil that it was not so. Greed was a trait shared by many races in Middle-earth, The Greed of the Dwarves being as much a cliché as the Wisdom of the Elves. In truth the greed of other races played a greater part in the decline of the Children of Aulë:

The Lord of the Rings; Appendix A (III)

So the rumour of the wealth of Erebor spread abroad and reached the ears of the dragons, and at last Smaug the Golden, greatest of the Dragons of his day, arose and without warning came against King Thrór and descended on the Mountain in flames. It was not long before all that realm was destroyed, and the town of Dale near by was ruined and deserted; but Smaug entered into the Great Hall and lay there upon a bed of gold.

The true diminishment of the Dwarves stemmed not from greed but from a peculiar trait amongst their race:

Both quotes from The Lord of the Rings: Appendix A (III)

It is said by Gimli that there are few dwarf-women, probably no more than one third of the whole population.

It is because of the fewness of women among them that the kind of the Dwarves increased slowly, and is in peril when they have no secure dwellings. For Dwarves take only one wife or husband each in their lives, and are jealous, as in all matters of their rights. The number of dwarf-men that marry is actually less than one-third. For not all the women take husbands: some desire none; some desire one that thye can not get, and so will have no other. As for the men, very many also do not desire marriage, being engrossed in their crafts.

It doesn't take a great mathematician to work this one out, war and dragon-fire did much to diminish the dwarven people, and yet the population grew slowly, too slowly to replace those that were lost. The decline of the dwarven people came from a design flaw - not something you would expect from the mind of the Great Maker - but one that is there for all to see!

baragund

06-04-2003, 06:21 PM

It is the position of the Guild of Scholars that Greed was the central cause of the diminishing of the dwarves. The greed of the dwarves is a cliché because there is so much truth behind it. In this debate, the Scholars will demonstrate how the dwarves were hard wired for the creation and accumulation of wealth, how this built-in desire for wealth coupled with their innate stubbornness led to greed that was greatly amplified by the seven Rings which ultimately resulted into their diminishing.

To begin, consider the manner in which the dwarves were created. As described in “Of Aule and Yavanna” from the published Silmarillion, Aule created the dwarves by himself, without authorization from Eru, before the arrival of the first Children of Iluvatar. From the beginning, Aule made them “strong and unyielding”, “stone-hard, stubborn, fast in friendship and in enmity…” in order to resist Melkor. Aule created them “to have learners to whom he could teach his lore and his crafts…”. Here we see the race of dwarves created with a built-in desire to create things of wealth and beauty, like Aule, coupled with a singular stubbornness that we will see can be turned into obsession and greed. Also, because Aule had no assistance from any other Vala, the dwarves were completely centered on the things that were valued by Aule; smithcraft, making things, the creation of wealth.

This evolution from desire to greed and lust is captured very well in “Of the Ruin of Doriath” in the published Silmarillion. Starting in the first age, the killing of Thingol and the destruction of Doriath was caused by greed on the part of dwarves and elves.
After Hurin brings the Nauglamir to Thingol, Thingol approaches the dwarves of Nogrod to combine it with the Silmaril that was already in his possession. After the dwarves remade the Nauglamir and added the Silmaril to it, they became consumed with lust for it and tried to withhold it from Thingol. This led to the awful slaying of Thingol and the subsequent conflagration between Doriath and Nogrod.

The evolution to lust and greed was completed when the seven Rings of Power that were given to the dwarves. According to “Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age” in the published Silmarillion:

“They used their rings only for the getting of wealth; but wrath and an over-mastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts, of which evil enough after came to the profit of Sauron.”

With the creation of the Seven Rings, what had been a predisposition toward accumulating wealth turned into full-blown greed and obsession. An example of this obsession can be found in The Hobbit where Thorin rashly refuses a very reasonable request to compensate Bard and the Lake Men for slaying Smaug and the destruction of Lake Town. Thorin was even willing to wage war with the Men of Lake Town as well as Thranduil's people rather than share any of the hoard under Erebor.

These quotes are all from appendix A of LotR.
quote:

It came to pass that in the middle of the Third Age Durin was again its king, being the sixth of that name. The power of Sauron, servant of Morgoth, was then again growing in the world, though the Shadow in the Forest that looked towards Moria was not yet known for what it was. All evil things were stirring. The Dwarves delved deep at that time, seeking beneath Barazinbar for mithril, the metal beyond price which was becoming yearly harder to win. Thus they roused from sleep a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: A Balrog of Morgoth. Durin was slain by it, and the year after Nain I, his son; then the glory of Moria passed, and is people were destroyed or fled far away.

The Dwarves greed for mithril led to the destruction of the great Kingom of Khazad-dum.

The dwarves brought the dragons upon them by hoarding their wealth. The dwarven kingdoms established in the Grey Mountains were destroyed by dragons who desired their wealth. Smaug destroyed Erebor becaue he had heard the rumour of the wealth of Erebor.

Of Thror:
quote:

He was a little crazed perhaps with age and misfortune and long brooding on the spendour of Moria in his forefathers' days; or the Ring, it may be, was turning to evil now that its master was awake, driving him to folly and destruction.

This could mean that the Dwarves' greed, leading them to accept the rings, led to Thor's journey to Moria and his slaying their by Azog, which led to the Battle of Azanulbizar, which resulted in the death of more than half of the dwarves who fought.

Turgon argues that a dearth of dwarf women and their reluctance to marry was the cause of their diminishing. The Scholars would say that was a symptom of their disease rather than the cause. While it is true that the race of dwarves grew too slowly to replace those lost in battle or killed by dragons, most of these killings are rooted to the greed of the dwarves. Some of Turgon's quotes support the Scholar's position. One of the reasons Dwarf men did not seek marriage was they were preoccupied with their crafts and their creation and accumulation of wealth.

As one can see, many key events of dwarvish history that were tragedies through the end of the Third Age had greed and the lust for wealth at their root. No wonder they did not have the time to settle down and have big families. They were too obsessed with getting ever more and more treasure.

Turgon

06-04-2003, 09:00 PM

Firstly I would like to address the Scholar's claim that Aulë loved the creation of wealth - this was never to my knowledge something valued by Aulë. How then was this built in to the make up of the dwarves? The creation of beauty most certainly, but wealth? Aulë had little interest that. And so it was with the Naugrim in their early days:

from the Published Silmarillion, 'Of the Sindar'

But the Naugrim gave their friendship more readily to the Noldor in after days than to any others of Elves and Men, because of their love and reverence for Aulë; and the gems of the Noldor they praised above all other wealth. In the darkness of Arda already the Dwarves wrought great works, for even from the first days of their Fathers they had marvellous skill with metals and with stone; but in that ancient time iron and copper they loved to work, rather than silver or gold.

Note the word 'praised' here, not 'desired' or 'lusted after', note too their preference for iron and copper, a race of people newly come into the world and delighting in craft for it's own sake

from the Published Silmarillion, 'Of the Sindar'

For Melian taught them much that they were eager to learn, and Thingol rewarded them with many fair pearls. These Círdan gave to him, for they were got in great number in the shallow waters about the Isle of Balar; but the Naugrim had not before seen their like, and they held them dear. One there was as great as a dove's egg, and its sheen was as starlight on the foam of the sea; Nimphelos it was named, and the chieftain of the Dwarves of Belegost prized it above a mountain of wealth.

We see here the dwarves prizing one object of great beauty over a mountain of wealth, not an act of greed but an act of love. So it was with Thorin and the Arkenstone. So it was Gimli as he looked in awe at the Glittering Caves and declared: No dwarf could be unmoved by such loveliness.

originally posted by Baragund

Some of Turgon's quotes support the Scholar's position. One of the reasons Dwarf men did not seek marriage was they were preoccupied with their crafts and their creation and accumulation of wealth.

Let's compare this with Tolkien's quote:

from The Lord of the Rings: Appendix A (III)

As for the men, very many also do not desire marriage, being engrossed in their crafts.

Where is the mention of the 'creation and accumulation of wealth?'

It seems to me that the Scholars are twisting things a little here!? Perhaps the Guild of Scholars see the creation of works of beauty an act of greed? But this is a position the people of Ost-in-Edhil stand strongly against. The desire to create is inherent in all creatures the greater as well the lesser. The dwarves were destined to create - was it not their ultimate destiny?

from of 'Aulë and Yavanna'

For they say that Aulë the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he declared to their Fathers of old that Ilúvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End. Then their part shall be to serve Aulë and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle.

Moving on to other matters - I think it's pretty clear that it was the Doom of Mandos working in Doriath not the innate greed of the dwarves. Melian foresaw this long ago when she warned Thingol of becoming enmeshed in the curse:

from 'Of Beren and Lúthien'

Then at last Melian spoke, and she said to Thingol: 'O King, you have devised cunning counsel. But if my eyes have not lost their sight, it is ill for you, whether Beren fail in his errand, or achieve it. For you have doom either your daughter, or yourself. And now is Doriath drawn within the fate of a mightier realm.'

from 'The Ruin of Doriath'

Then the Dwarves looked upon the work of their fathers, and they beheld with wonder the shining jewel of Fëanor; and they were filled with a great lust to possess them, and carry them off to their far homes in the mountains.

The Doom of Mandos coming home to roost. It was Thingol who brought about the Ruin of Doriath, not the Naugrim.

As for the coming of the Balrog - this was a misfortune that could just as easily have befallen a lowly iron mine somewhere in the Ered Luin - a sad twist of fate and nothing more. That nasty old Balrog could have been lurking anywhere! Knowing what we know of the Naugrim - can we blame them for delving so deeply for this most beautiful of metals?

I find it hard to accuse the Naugrim of an unhealthy greed.

Perhaps loving too well the works of their hand would be a fairer judgement?

Maedhros

06-05-2003, 07:11 AM

Did greed diminish the Dwarven Race?
Let's begin with a simple definition:
greed: An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth
Is greed a desire that is only meant for dwarves? Of course not, but according to JRRT, it is a big part of them:
From the Letters of JRRT: 203
That there is no allegory does not, of course, say there is no applicability. There always is. And since I have not made the struggle wholly unequivocal: sloth and stupidity among hobbits, pride and among Elves, grudge and greed in Dwarf-hearts, and folly and wickedness among the 'Kings of Men', and treachery and power-lust even among the 'Wizards', there is I suppose applicability in my story to present times.
Interesting but JRRT himself mentions greed while describing the faults of dwarves. OiE may say no but I think I will stick with what JRRT felt.
[i]Originally posted by Turgon
Where is the mention of the 'creation and accumulation of wealth?'
Why here of course:
From The Lords of the Rings: A journey in the dark
`The wealth of Moria was not in gold and jewels, the toys of the Dwarves; nor in iron, their servant. Such things they found here, it is true, especially iron; but they did not need to delve for them: all things that they desired they could obtain in traffic. For here alone in the world was found Moria-silver, or true-silver as some have called it: mithril is the Elvish name. The Dwarves have a name which they do not tell. Its worth was ten times that of gold, and now it is beyond price; for little is left above ground, and even the Orcs dare not delve here for it. The lodes lead away north towards Caradhras, and down to darkness. The Dwarves tell no tale; but even as mithril was the foundation of their wealth, so also it was their destruction: they delved too greedily and too deep, and disturbed that from which they fled, Durin's Bane.
All they needed they could obtain, but because the dwarves were greedy, they wanted instead mithril, which is worth more than gold to be richer, and thus they found Durin’s Bane which did in fact led to their diminishment.
Now I think that it is time to analize our topic question:
Did greed diminish the Dwarven Race?
Notice that it says greed, not dwarven greed in particular but greed in general.
With this clarification, let's look at what happened in Doriath:
Thingol could have given the Silmaril to the sons of Fëanor but he didn't because he was drawn to it. He didn't want to be apart from it.
It was the greed of the dwarves that made them lust for it:
From the Published Silmarillion:
Then the Dwarves looked upon the work of their fathers, and they beheld with wonder the shining jewel of Fëanor; and they were filled with a great lust to possess them, and carry them off to their far homes in the mountains.
Our friends from OiE say that it was the Doom of Mandos, but did Mandos made Thingol desire for the Silmaril? No.
Did Mandos made the dwarves desire for the Silmaril? No. It was the greed of both Thingol and the Naugrim that eventually caused a great diminish of the dwarves then.

Now let's look at the diminishment of the dwarves:
From The Lord of the Rings: Appendix III
It was said by Gimli that there are few dwarf-women, probably no more than a third of the whole people. They seldom walk abroad except at great need, They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart. This has given rise to the foolish opinion among Men that there are no dwarf-women, and that the Dwarves 'grow out of stone'.
It is because of the fewness of women among them that the kind of the Dwarves increases slowly, and is in peril when they have no secure dwellings. For Dwarves take only one wife or husband each in their lives, and are jealous, as in all matters of their rights. The number of dwarf-men that marry is actually less than one-third. For not all the women take husbands: some desire none; some desire one that they cannot get, and so will have no other
The obvious question is this: Has this trait been a fact in the development of the dwarven race in the history of ME? It probably is.
Let's take a look at what makes a viable population:
A viable population is a population capable of maintaining itself, without significant manipulation.
A minimum viable population is an estimate of the smallest viable population that will persist
a) for a specified length of time
b) with a specified level of certainty

Let's see the Factors Affecting Population Persistence Time:
Growth rate (r)
We have:
a) Density-independent factors:
- kill the same proportion of a population at all densities (e.g., catastrophic mortality related to weather)
b) Density-dependent factors:
- kill a larger proportion of a population at higher densities (e.g., shortage of resources, predation, parasitism, disease increasing intraspecific social interaction)

Now, lets assume that the ratio of dwarven women has been approximately the same in all their history (There is no proof otherwise). The principal factor that have to do with that is the growth rate of the population.
Throught their history, they have been able to mantain a large population but how is it that they were diminished. As my fellow Scholar has mentioned, the dwarves have been the object of several predations by dragons (Moria, Erebor) and other assaults like the one of Beren to the Naugrim. Unfortunately for the dwarves, this attacks were caused by their greed of gold and wealth that attracted the dragons to their mountains. When you kill a large part of the population, it affects the growth rate of that population which in turns leads to the diminishment of it.

Ancalagon

06-05-2003, 02:09 PM

Indeed good Maedhros, let us look at the question in context, not the attempt to manipulate Turgon's excellent opening response and pass it off as your own.

The context is deliberately relating to the Dwarves and the implication that their own greed, not the greed of any other race or creature, led to their diminished state. Of course, the thought that alledged 'Dwarvish Greed' singularly led to the decline of dwarves is utterly preposterous. Your interpretation of the question lacks conviction I'm afraid, for Scatha has already set the scene and laid down the context for which this question is to be discussed. Originally posted by ScathaProbably the best known aspect of the Dwarvish character, though, is their strong instinctive skills in the working of metal and stone, no doubt derived from Aulë their maker, the Vala whose province these things were. In ancient times, they were said to have preferred working with copper and iron, though in later days they wrought gold and silver, and the mithril they found in the Mines of Khazad-dûm.

Of course, as they dug deeper and deeper to get the precious mithril, they awakened Durin's curse, which is were the trouble started. If the dwarves had not been this greedy, to get more and more mithril, would they have been a greater race?
.

Applicability! The quote from letter#203 relates only to an endemic peculiarity to that particular race which he mentions. If one must 'apply applicability' then it might seem most reasonable to assume these are singular characteristics locally applicable to some of each race. Very few Hobbits are actually slothful and stupid. Pride is not attributable to the majority of Elves, especially if one compares most of the Noldor to Fëanor and his Sons. Folly and Wickedness only among the 'Kings of Men' who later became subject to Sauron? This does not represent the entire race of Men nor does it represent all 'Kings of Men' who for the most part have fought bravely in defence of their lands, laws and their virtue. Neither then can 'grudging and greed in Dwarf-Hearts' simply be cast out as a generalisation, systemic to the entire Dwarven race. Tolkien identified some aspects of 'applicability' in his character Races that seem on the surface apparent, but in truth do not nearly encapsulate the reality of each.

Let us consider the genius of Dwarves, who if we actually wish to 'apply applicability' upon them to modern times, would be the instigators of capitalism, they were shrewd economists of their day.

There dealings between Men and the Longbeards must soon have begun. For the Longbeards, though the proudest of the seven kindreds, were also the wisest and the most farseeing. Men held them in awe and were eager to learn from them; and the Longbeards were very willing to use Men for their own purposes. Thus there grew up in those regions the economy, later characteristic of the dealings of Dwarves and Men (including Hobbits): Men became the chief providers of food, as herdsmen, shepherds, and land- tillers, which the Dwarves exchanged for work as builders, roadmakers, miners, and the makers of things of craft, from useful tools to weapons and arms and many other things of great cost and skill. To the great profit of the Dwarves.
Not only to be reckoned in hours of labour, though in early times the Dwarves must have obtained goods that were the product of greater and longer toil than the things or services that they gave in exchange - before Men became wiser and developed skills of their own. The chief advantage to them was their freedom to proceed unhindered with their own work and to refine their arts, especially in metallurgy, to the marvellous skill which these reached before the decline and dwindling of the Khazad.The Peoples of Middle-Earth
To add to this I will insert a quote taken from The Hobbit which I think explains clearly the skills that was so eagerly sought from Dwarves;
Kings used to send for our smiths, and reward even the least skilful most richly. Fathers would beg us to take their sons as apprentices, and pay us handsomely, especially in food – supplies, which we never bothered to grow or find for ourselves. Altogether those were good days for us, and the poorest of us had money to spend and to lend, and leisure to make beautiful things just for the fun of it, not to speak of the most marvellous and magical toys, the like of which is not to be found in the world now-a days. So my grandfather’s halls became full of armour and jewels and carvings and cups, and the toy market of Dale was the wonder of the North.The Hobbit

Dwarves knew the value of their work, the skills they possessed they traded, ever seeking to ensure their own security and manage their profit effectively. This is the way of any businesslike approach to selling skills or a product, and Dwarves for their economical adeptness, should not simply be castigated and branded greedy for doing such. Many made profit from their trade with Dwarves, though none were so shrewd and efficient.

Maedhros, you make mention of Thingol and the Dwarves desire to obtain the Nauglamir, in which they had set the Silmaril. Everyone lusted after this jewel, not simply the Dwarves. One fact that should not be discounted is whether the Dwarves would have slain Thingol had Thingol not make such arrogant and insulting remarks to them. And standing tall and proud among them he bade them with shameful words be gone unrequited out of Doriath...Then the lust of the Dwarves was kindled to rage by the words of the King; and they rose up about him, and laid hands on him, and slew him as he stood.From 'The Published Simarillion'

Lust is a potent enough evil in itself, but not enough in my opinion to kill the King. The brutality of his words brought about such passion and anger among 'the stunted people' that they lost control of their tempers, and ultimately slew the King. Much woe came of this, and after the fleeing Dwarves were destroyed, thoughts of vengence took hold of the Dwarves of Nogrod, even against the pleas of their brothers in Belegost. This was not about greed, nor was it about lust, but about pride and wrath and ultimately it betrayed them to their deaths.

Yet, it contributed to the diminishment of the Dwarves, as did the destruction of Nogrod and Belegost in the War of Wrath and the Sinking of Beleriand. None of this is attributed to greed, but circumstance. Since nothing at all is recorded about the other Dwarven Mansions, nothing at all can be assumed about their diminished state. Actually, it is unclear whether these other Mansions still exist in the far corners of the world where once Mahal had laid them. Yet, even if the Kingdoms of the Dwarves fell or were destroyed by Dragons, Kazad-Dum remained steadfast and secure, yet even within its wall its people diminished, before even the awakening of Durin's Bane.The Dwarves hid themselves in deep places, guarding their hoards; but when evil began to stir again and dragons reappeared, one by one their ancient treasures were plundered, and they became a wandering people. Moria for long remained secure, but its numbers dwindled until many of its vast mansions became dark and empty.The Return of the King
There was a blight on the Dwarvish population, the very least of it had anything to do with their own supposed greed.

Elfarmari

06-05-2003, 11:39 PM

With regard to this quote given by Ancalagon:The Dwarves hid themselves in deep places, guarding their hoards; but when evil began to stir again and dragons reappeared, one by one their ancient treasures were plundered, and they became a wandering people. Moria for long remained secure, but its numbers dwindled until many of its vast mansions became dark and empty.The Return of the King

Why did the dragons attack the dwarves? Why not men or elves? Because the Dwarves had gathered hoards of treasure, not simply beautiful things to use or decorate their halls, hoards. Why would someone want so much more than they could possibly need? Greed.

EDIT: typo

Ancalagon

06-06-2003, 12:04 AM

Originally posted by Elfarmari
With regard to this quote given by Ancalagon:

Why did the dragons attack the dwarves? Why not men or elves? Because the Dwarves had gathered hoards of treasure, not simply beautiful things to use or decorate their halls Well actually because;
‘Undoubtedly that was what brought the dragon. Dragons steal gold and jewels, you know, from men and elves and dwarves, wherever they can find them; and they guard their plunder as long as they live (which is practically for ever, unless they are killed), and never enjoy a brass ring of it. Indeed they hardly know a good bit of work from a bad, though they usually have a good notion of the current market value; and they can’t make a thing for themselves, not even mend a little loose scale of their armour. There were lots of dragons in the North in those days, and gold was probably getting scarce up there, with the dwarves flying south or getting killed, and all the general waste and destruction that dragons make going from bad to worse. It's not just a Dwarf concern, the greed of Dragons.

baragund

06-06-2003, 05:48 AM

So far, Turgon's and Ancalagon's arguments seem to be settling around two basic points. First is the notion that because greed was not the sole characteristic of dwarves and that greed was a shared characteristic of all of the races, it should somehow not be considered the cause of the dwarve's dimishment. The second is the lack of females and for several reasons (disinterest, not being able to get the mate they want, bad headache, etc. etc.) many went through life unmarried and bearing no children. Given the actual events of the first three ages of Middle Earth, and the repeated references in the writings to dwarvish "greed" and "hoards", the first position can only be described as ancillary to the root cause of greed and the second is a secondary symptom of the disease, not the cause as I said earlier.

Let's examine some of Ancalagon's and Turgon's earlier posts. In his last post, Ancalagon references a quote from The Hobbit that describes how dragons stole gold and jewels from men and elves as well as the dwarves. Fair enough but the dragons harassed the dwarves most because they were the only race to hoard their wealth. Erebor attracted Smaug because of the sheer excessive concentration of riches within that mountain.

Thanks, Ancalagon for supplying an excellent quote that illustrates this. From ROTK:

The Dwarves hid themselves in deep places, guarding their hoards; but when evil began to stir again and dragons reappeared, one by one their ancient treasures were plundered, and they became a wandering people.

Now let's examine Turgon's post. First, I think he misses the mark when he ascribes Thingol's behaviour over the Nauglamir and the Silmaril to the Doom of Mandos. The Doom was clearly directed at the rebelling Noldor after the first kin slaying. Not Thingol who was Teleri and not the dwarves. Also, it was the dwarves of Nogrod who clearly instigated the treachery. Thingol could have been more diplomatic but it was the dwarves who caused that tragedy.

Second, Turgon correctly points out that the dwarves had a much more wholesome love for creating things of beauty, gems, jewels and the like early in their history. However, this was gradually eclipsed by their desire to hoard their beautiful creations (i.e. greed). This evolution toward greed was greatly accelerated by the Seven Dwarven Rings.

From examining the Tale of Years in Appendix B, LOTR, we can deduce the Seven were forged sometime in the late 16th century S.A. Descriptions of the dwarves accumulated treasures and wealth as hoards began after this time. The quote I gave above describes what the dwarves did in the early to mid Third Age. Also, in the description of the Seven in "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" in the Published Silmarillion, there is the following:

It is said that the foundation of each of the Seven Hoards of the Dwarf-kings of old was a golden ring; but all those hoards long ago were plundered and the Dragons devoured them, and of the Seven Rings some were consumed in fire and some Sauron recovered.

Again, we have the description of the dwarves riches as hoards. People who are not greedy do not keep hoards and it is the hoards that attracted the dragons like bees are attracted to honey.

Maedhros

06-06-2003, 06:59 AM

Dwarven Thinking 101
From The Lord of the Rings: Appendix III Durin’s Folk
Years afterwards Thrór, now old, poor, and desperate, gave to his son Thráin the one great treasure he still possessed, the last of the Seven Rings, and then he went away with one old companion only, called Nár. Of the Ring he said to Thráin at their parting:
'This may prove the foundation of new fortune for you yet, though that seems unlikely. But it needs gold to breed gold.'
When Thrór came to Moria the Gate was open. Nár begged him to beware, but he took no heed of him, and walked proudly in as an heir that returns. But he did not come back.
Such was the tale that Nár brought back to Thráin; and when he had wept and torn his beard he fell silent. Seven days he sat and said no word. Then he stood up and said: 'This cannot be borne!' That was the beginning of the War of the Dwarves and the Orcs, which was long and deadly, and fought for the most part in deep places beneath the earth.
Thráin at once sent messengers bearing the tale, north, east, and west; but it was three years before the Dwarves had mustered their strength. Durin's Folk gathered all their host, and they were joined by great forces sent from the Houses of other Fathers; for this dishonour to the heir of the Eldest of their race filled them with wrath. When all was ready they assailed and sacked one by one all the strongholds of the Orcs that they could from Gundabad to the Gladden. Both sides were pitiless, and there was death and cruel deeds by dark and by light. But the Dwarves had the victory through their strength, and their matchless weapons, and the fire of their anger, as they hunted for Azog in every den under mountain.

It is very interesting to analyze this. We have first that in 2590 TA Thrór goes to Erebor, and in 2770 TA Smaug lays waste to Erebor, but Thrór escapes with his son Thráin and Thorin. Then in 2790, Thrór in his old age, get this idea of trying to amass more riches and become wealthy in Moria, but is slained in there by Azog, thus creating a great enmity between Orks and Dwarves that led to the War of Dwarves and Orks which began in 2793 TA.

Look at what happened in the end of that War:
From The Lord of the Rings: Appendix III Durin’s Folk
When at last the battle was won the Dwarves that were left gathered in Azanulbizar. They took the head of Azog and thrust into its mouth the purse of small money, and then they set it on a stake. But no feast nor song was there that night; for their dead were beyond the count of grief. Barely half of their number, it is said, could still stand or had hope of healing.
I think that this is the very meaning of diminishing of a race, and it happened just because Thrór wasn’t satisfied with what he had and wanted to be rich. The very meaning of greed is what caused this great tragedy that ended with a great diminishing of the dwarves.

Dwarf behavior in the Narn:
Again pity long hardened welled in Túrin's heart as water from rock. "Alas!" he said. "I would recall that shaft, if I could. Now Bar-en-Danwedh, House of Ransom, shall this be called in truth. For whether we dwell here or no, I will hold myself in your debt; and if ever I come to any wealth, I will pay you a ransom of heavy gold for your son, in token of sorrow, though it gladden your heart no more."
Then Mîm rose, and looked long at Túrin. "I hear you," he said. "You speak like a Dwarf-lord of old; and at that I marvel.

From The Hobbit
"No!" said Thorin. "There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West. Some courage and some wisdom, blended in measure. If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. But sad or merry, I must leave it now. Farewell!"
Thorin in the end realized that his values were not as good as those of the hobbits who valued other things above gold. Now it makes you wonder, why would all of those Dragons went to slay of all those dwarven kingdoms? Why not go to Mirkwood or The Shire instead?
Answer: Because they are as greedy as the dwarves are.
Did greed diminish the Dwarven Race?
Remember, the topic did greed diminish the dwarven race? Answer is yes. No greed of the dwarves, no great accumulation of gold by them, no attacks of the dragons, no diminishment of the dwarves. With all of these examples, there should be no problem stating that it was greed that led to the diminishment of the dwarves.
Why is it that OiE wants to restrict the topic to only the greed of the dwarves? Answer: because if they don’t, they don’t have a case.

P.S. Isn’t it ironic that the OiE who made the Rings of Power is the same one that supports the position that it was not their greed that diminish them. Perhaps it is to calm their conscience. Hehe.

Maedhros

06-06-2003, 07:01 AM

Just to go into more detail into what baragund has said:
Dwarven Rings 101:
From The Published Silmarillion:
In those days the smiths of Ost-in-Edhil surpassed all that they had contrived before; and they took thought, and they made Rings of Power. But Sauron guided their labours, and he was aware of all that they did; for his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance.
Let’s pause a little here. The Elven Rings made by the elves were the same. They were not made specifically for either men or dwarves. Notice the effect that the Rings had on the dwarves:
From The Published Silmarillion:
The Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows. They used their rings only for the getting of wealth; but wrath and an over-mastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts, of which evil enough after came to the profit of Sauron. It is said that the foundation of each of the Seven Hoards of the Dwarf-kings of old was a golden ring; but all those hoards long ago were plundered and the Dragons devoured them, and of the Seven Rings some were consumed in fire and some Sauron recovered.
Tolkien mentions in his letters, see previous post, that dwarves have the affinity for greed. It seems that the Rings of OiE, just enhanced that innate greed that dwarves posses.
Let’s take the Moria example of dwarvish greed:
Moria was populated in 40 SA. It was circa 1697 SA that Sauron gave the Rings to both Men and dwarves. Notice that the Balrog slew Durin VI in 1980 TA, and it is in 1981 TA that Dain I is slained in Moria and the dwarves flee from it. Why is it that from 40SA to 1697 SA they had no problem in their dwelling there. The Balrog appeared in 1980 TA, after the dwarves gained their rings and greedily kept up looking for more treasure that they would ever need. The direct consequence of that was the finding of the Balrog and the desolation of Moria. Diminishment of the race.
Other consequences of the Greed of Dwarves:
Dwarves of course are not the only race which is greedy. There is also the greed of the Dragons. We have that in 2570 TA that dragons appears in the North and begin to afflict the dwarves because they are attracted by their wealth that they have achieved. It is circa this time that :
From The Lord of the Rings: II THE HOUSE OF EORL
Of his son, Fram, they tell that he slew Scatha, the great dragon of Ered Mithrin, and the land had peace from the long-worms afterwards. Thus Fram won great wealth, but was at feud with the Dwarves, who claimed the hoard of Scatha. Fram would not yield them a penny, and sent to them instead the teeth of Scatha made into a necklace, saying: "Jewels such as these you will not match in your treasuries, for they are hard to come by." Some say that the Dwarves slew Fram for this insult. There was no great love between Éothéod and the Dwarves.
So we can see that not only it Scatha’s ravages ended up with the slaying of many dwarves, but it ended up too with the estranging and battle between dwarves and the Éothéod which results in the diminishing of the dwarves too.
We have that in 2770 TA, Smaug descends on Erebor and wrecks havoc on the dwarves, all because of the greed of dwarves to amass great quantities of treasures to quench their greed as so to attract dragons.

Ancalagon

06-06-2003, 10:40 AM

Whoaaa...let's just back up for a moment and take another look at what you are saying! Originally posted by baragund
Let's examine some of Ancalagon's and Turgon's earlier posts. In his last post, Ancalagon references a quote from The Hobbit that describes how dragons stole gold and jewels from men and elves as well as the dwarves. Fair enough but the dragons harassed the dwarves most because they were the only race to hoard their wealth. Erebor attracted Smaug because of the sheer excessive concentration of riches within that mountain.
Are you saying that because Dwarves successfully mined, manufactured and retained their wealth for the purposes of securing a safe, viable economy within their realms, this makes them greedy? That because they are prepared to work long hours of labour seeking out fine metals from which to craft beautiful artifacts, weapons and even toys with with to trade for food, wine or beer, wood and clothing from surrounding towns and villages, this makes them greedy? Why did the town of Dale spring up in the first place? Why did Elves and Men both profit from their trade with the Dwarves? Why do trade routes open and thriving economies grow in and around the Dwarf-Halls? You must remember, these halls were deep underground, they were mined, fashioned from living rock and made to look beautiful, otherwise they would be dank and miserable. Should a Dwarf not have the right to make his home beautiful if he works unceasingly, finely carving and chiseling artistic impressions in his vast caverns, using the rich veins of Ore he finds to create lamps, ornate designs, weapons to hang as ornaments upon his Mansion? Should he not be allowed to enjoy a drink from a goblet he created, or eat from plates and with silver cutlery that he himself painstakingly smelted, set and carved? You talk of greed as though Dwarves should have been simply working themselves almost to death and handing out everything they found and crafted, free or to the lowest bidder! Where is the economical sense in that, how does one support a city if they do not accumulate wealth with which to barter and trade? You seem to forget, Dwarf Mansions were not small, underground gatherings of a few Dwarves, busy working as though they were mining coal, this was their home, their workshops, their furnaces, their houses, their life. They do not grow food underground, they cannot manufacture wines or cotton or support livestock (other than beasts of burden) that graze, they cannot keep bees for honey for there is no pollen underground nor grow wheat to bake breads. So, they create, they gather, they buy and they work. They were fantastic in their skills and it brought them rich reward and gave security to the towns around them who traded openly in sustainable goods. Now, tell me again why Dwarves on the whole are greedy?
Originally posted by baragund
Now let's examine Turgon's post. First, I think he misses the mark when he ascribes Thingol's behaviour over the Nauglamir and the Silmaril to the Doom of Mandos. The Doom was clearly directed at the rebelling Noldor after the first kin slaying. Not Thingol who was Teleri and not the dwarves. Also, it was the dwarves of Nogrod who clearly instigated the treachery. Thingol could have been more diplomatic but it was the dwarves who caused that tragedy.

Let us look again at the Curse of Mandos and try to piece together how Thingol might somehow, strangely enough, have become entangled in it.
See now! I too desire a treasure that is withheld. For rock and steel and the fires of Morgoth keep the jewel that I would possess against all the powers of the Elf-kingdoms. Yet I hear you say that bonds such as these do not daunt you. Go your way therefore! Bring to me in your hand a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown; and then, if she will, Lúthien may set her hand in yours. Then you shall have my jewel; and though the fate of Arda lie within the Silmarils, yet you shall hold me generous.'
Thus he wrought the doom of Doriath, and was ensnared within the curse of Mandos.From the Published Silmarillion .' I am sorry to say Baragund, it is you and not my colleague Turgon who has clearly missed the mark, by more than a few miles to say the least.

Maedhros, I have to admit, I admire that you are desperately trying to bring the question of greed throughout every other race, creed and creature into this because it is, as Turgon so clearly pointed out in his opening statement, a contributing factor to the diminishment of the Dwarves. Originally posted in Turgon's opening statementIn truth the greed of other races played a greater part in the decline of the Children of Aulë: The question is clear, I have already pointed out to you in my previous post, so why persist in trying to maintain that you have had such a stunning revelation and dreamed this position up? However, by all means continue as you are simply shoring up Turgon's opening statement. It seems everyone wants to take wealth from Dwarves, without actually putting in the lifetime of work in creating it, otherwise known as a 'free lunch.'
Once again Maedhros my good friend, you are hanging one-handed from the precipice, only this time there will be no salvation as it seems you will be left hanging. No eagles to bear you away, just the vultures of Ost-in-Edhil encircling your hapless carcass!

Chymaera

06-06-2003, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by Maedhros
Let’s pause a little here. The Elven Rings made by the elves were the same. They were not made specifically for either men or dwarves. So you are saying that Sauron could have made another 7 Ringwraiths just by giving The 7 Dwarf-rings. What an amazing thing. The Rings of Power were made by with the assistance of Sauron and the were made to corrupt them and bring them under the control of Sauron.
I do not believe that there are too many cases of Dwarf-wraiths with the forces of Sauron.

Originally posted by Maedhros
Moria was populated in 40 SA. It was circa 1697 SA that Sauron gave the Rings to both Men and dwarves. Notice that the Balrog slew Durin VI in 1980 TA, and it is in 1981 TA that Dain I is slained in Moria and the dwarves flee from it. Why is it that from 40SA to 1697 SA they had no problem in their dwelling there. The Balrog appeared in 1980 TA, after the dwarves gained their rings and greedily kept up looking for more treasure that they would ever need.Dates seem to get twisted around so easily sometimes. I would just like to set the record straight here.
It came to pass during the second age of the capativity of Melkor. That Dwarves came over the Blue Mountains of Ered Luin into Beleriand...Greatest of all the mansions of the Dwarves was Khazad-dûm, the Dwarrowdelf, Hadhodrond in the Elvish...but it was far off in the Mountains of Mist beyond the wide leagues of Eriador, and to the Eldar came but a name and a rumour from the words of the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains.
The Silmarillion: Of the Sindar
Khazad-dûm was not populated in 40 SA. It was a Great City of the Dwarves well before the return of Morgoth to Arda. Khazad-dûm took in the dwarves that were left homeless after the destruction of Beleriand. And here is another instance of so-called dwarvish greed dwarves coming to the aid of dwarves in their time of need.

For myself I would not have you believe that dwarves and the evil of their greed could outstrip that of Morgoth and Sauron, as some might suggest.

I have some examples of Dwarvish attitude the that is more in keeping with their true attitude towards wealth.

'Strange are the ways of Men, Legolas! Here they have one of the marvels of the Northern World, and what do they say of it? Caves , they say! Caves! Holes to fly to in times of war, to store fodder in! My good Legolas, do you know the caverns of Helm's Deep are vast and beautiful? There would be an endless pilgrimage of Dwarves, merely to gaze at them, if such things were known to be. aye indeed they would pay pure gold for a brief glance!'

'And I would give gold to be excused', said Legolas; 'and double to be let out, if I strayed in!'

'You have not seen, so I forgive your jest,' said Gimli. 'But you speck like a fool. Do you think those halls are fair, Where your King dwells under the hill in Mirkwood, and Dwarve shelped in their making long ago? They are but hovels compared with the caverns I have seen here: immeasurable hallsfilled with an everlasting music of water that tinkles into pools. fair as Kheled-zâram in the starlight.
'And, Legolas, when the torches are kindles and men walk on the sandy floors under the echoing domes, ah! then Legolas, gems and crystals and veins of precious ore glint in the polished walls; and the light glows through folds of marbles, shell-like, translucent as the living hands of Queen Galadriel. .....
The Two Towers: The Road to IsengardGimli waxes poetic for the rest of the page and I suggest you reread it if you have not lately. Then Legolas mourns for the cave that a family of dwarves are going to come and mine-out all the beauty that Gimli has described. Then Gimli responces:
'No, you do not understand,' said Gimli. 'No dwarf could be unmoves by such lovilyness. None of Durin's race would mine those caves for stones or ore, not if diamonds and gold could be got there. Do you cut down groves of blossoming trees in the springtime for firewood? We would tend these glades of flowering stone, not quarry them. With cautious skill, tap by tap -- a small chip of rock and no more, perhaps, in a whole anxious day -- so would we work, and as the years went by, we should open up new ways, and display far chambers that are still dark, glimpsed nly as a void beyond fissures in the rock. And lights, Legolas! We should make lights, such lamps as once shone in Khazad-dûm; and whenwe wished we would drive away the night that has lain there since the hills were made; and when we desired rest, we would let the night return.
The Two Towers: The Road to Isengard
Does this not describe the unfeeling Greedy monsters that some would have you see.

Gimli is a poet and an artist and accoording to him he is not alone, In his feelings.

At the begining of the Fourth Age Gimli leads a group of Dwarves south from Erebor to Minas Tirith and the Glittering Caves. To help in the rebuilding of Gondor and Rohan. Does this not show a far less greedy side to the dwavish make-up in fact one could say that dwarves at this point in their history are far from being diminished?

Maedhros

06-06-2003, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by Ancalagon
The question is clear, I have already pointed out to you in my previous post, so why persist in trying to maintain that you have had such a stunning revelation and dreamed this position up? However, by all means continue as you are simply shoring up Turgon's opening statement. It seems everyone wants to take wealth from Dwarves, without actually putting in the lifetime of work in creating it, otherwise known as a 'free lunch.'
Hehe. Interesing thing really. I made two posts regarding dwarven thinking and the effects that their greed had on their diminishment, and you didn't even try and argue against it. It makes me wonder old pal.
Originally posted by Chymaera
So you are saying that Sauron could have made another 7 Ringwraiths just by giving The 7 Dwarf-rings. What an amazing thing. The Rings of Power were made by with the assistance of Sauron and the were made to corrupt them and bring them under the control of Sauron.
Can you give any fact from the books that states that those Elven Rings were in fact made for men and dwarves? Can you give any facts that say that those Rings were different from each other, the ones that Sauron gave to Men and the ones that he gave to dwarves.
The difference is in the race itself. Men proved easier to dominate while dwarves didn't. Unfortunately in this debate, the rings that Sauron gave to the dwarves ignited their greed to whole new levels.
Originally posted by Gimli
At the begining of the Fourth Age Gimli leads a group of Dwarves south from Erebor to Minas Tirith and the Glittering Caves. To help in the rebuilding of Gondor and Rohan. Does this not show a far less greedy side to the dwavish make-up in fact one could say that dwarves at this point in their history are far from being diminished?
Notice how OiE chooses to ignore the fact that it was the great wealth of the dwarves that brought them dragons that diminish them.
But just what is greed:
An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth
OiE argues that it was not greed that led to dwarven diminishment but that it was their desire to make beautiful things, but if that is the case, then why does JRRT makes the point in his letters the applicability of greed in dwarves. See previous post. You can attack my posts but the words of JRRT in his letters are a different thing.

And also notice what Thorin says to Bilbo before dying. If they valued other things over gold, a merrier place it would be.

Now with respect to Doriath and it's downfall
Our friends from OiE, tells us that it was not the greed of dwarves but destiny of the Doom of Mandos. Hehe.
Mandos didn't made Thingol accept the Silmaril, just as Mandos didn't made the Kinslaying of Alqualondë. The characters have to be responsible for their actions. It was Thingol that brought the Silmaril in Doriath, and it was the greed of dwarves that made them desire it. The fact that many people desire it, in no way diminishes the fact that it was the greed of dwarves that brought tragedy to Doriath and to the dwarves themselves.

Dwarven Viable Population 101 next::)

Turgon

06-07-2003, 12:44 AM

Notice how OiE chooses to ignore the fact that it was the great wealth of the dwarves that brought them dragons that diminish them.

Yes sure - just as the brigand attacks when the harvest is gathered - we are not ignoring anything Maedhros, merely questioning your reasoning. Perhaps you feel that a yearly tribute of Dwarven Gold and trussed up Dale Folk all fattened up for eating would have been a fairer deal for the dragons?

Let us take a look at Erebor and see what the dwarves did with these vast hoards of golds. The Scholars see fit to compare the Dwarves of Erebor with Smaug - greedy hoarders who endlessly count their piles of ill-gotten wealth - but let us look at what they really did with these riches:

from 'An unexpected party'

The dwarves of yore made mighty spells,
While hammers fell like ringing bells
In places deep, where dark things sleep,
In hollow halls beneath the fells.

For ancient king and elvish lord
There many gleaming golden hoard
They shaped and wrought, and light they caught
To hide in gems on hilt of sword.

On silver necklaces they strung
The flowering stars, on crowns they hung
To dragon-fire, in twisted wire
They meshed the light of moon and sun.

I especially like the quote, it comes right after the song:

'As they sang the hobbit felt the love of beautiful things made by hands and by cunning and by magic moving through him, a fierce and a jealous love, the desire of the hearts of dwarves.'

A fierce and jealous love, not greed. You see it is all a matter of perspective, Tolkien wrote many things about the hearts of dwarves. He did not simply see them as the race of greedy, money-grubbing, ne'er do wells that the Scholars are suggesting. We are not twisting words here.

Now let us take a look at what happened once the dwarves had reclaimed their 'loot':

from LoTR, 'Many Meetings'

Glóin began then to talk of the works of his people, telling Frodo about their great labours in Dale and under the Mountain. 'We have done well,' he said. `But in metalwork we cannot rival our fathers, many of whose. secrets are lost. We make good armour and keen swords, but we cannot again make mail or blade to match those that were made before the dragon came. Only in mining and building have we surpassed the old days. You should see the waterways of Dale, Frodo, and the fountains, and the pools! You should see the stone-paved roads of many colours! And the halls and cavernous streets under the earth with arches carved like trees; and the terraces and towers upon the Mountain's sides! Then you would see that we have not been idle.'

One again we see the dwarves hard at work, rebuilding the glories of their ancient home, reconstructing the ravaged town of their old friends in Dale, all with Dwarven gold. Not exactly the act of a greedy folk.

The Scholar's would have us believe that this led to the diminishment of the Dwarven people. Nothing could be further from the truth, this was the very essence of the dwarven soul, the root of their glory - if the dwarves had not delved and crafted, wrought and laboured, then we would have diminshment.

chrysophalax

06-07-2003, 03:29 AM

Did greed diminish the Dwarven race...

To some extent, probably...however, this question we are so avidly debating implies greed as the sole reason for diminishment. Now time and time again, I have seen each and every one of you on both sides talk of Dragons, poor dating habits, greed, etc. Seems to me there were many reasons for them not to be the top dogs, not merely "greed". The statement named greed alone. This is inaccurate and limiting. In the fall of any race there is always more than one factor.

If any among us can prove that greed alone led to their fall, then kudos! If not, well...

baragund

06-07-2003, 06:17 AM

Oy! So many points to review...

First let's take a look at Ancalagons earlier post from this morning. The first part was a long, very eloquent and vivid exposition; but it boils down to this:

Are you saying that because Dwarves successfully mined, manufactured and retained their wealth for the purposes of securing a safe, viable economy within their realms, this makes them greedy?

Absolutely not! The Scholars have maintained that the dwarves are greedy because they hoarded their treasures for no other purpose than it's own accumulation. Now all those wonderful things that Ancalagon describes in his post are true; the dwarves continued to accomplish great things throughout their history. Their greed by no means blotted out their good qualities. Their greed was more like a shadow that hung over all of the otherwise good things they did.

As far as Ancalagon's assertion regarding Thingol and the Doom of Mandos, I thank Maedhros for having my back on that one. And I again repeat it was the dwarves that instigated the treachery that led to Thingol's death and war between Doriath and Nogrod.

Chymaera's post that follows is more or less a restatement of Ancalagon's post of this morning. Again, nobody is disputing that the dwarves were incapable of wholesome thoughts and deeds, even after the Seven Rings amplified their predisposition to greed and hoarding of wealth. OK, one can quibble over the date that Khazad-dum was settled and when it became a great city but the thrust of my post from last night and Maedhros' follow-up was to show how JRRT's description of dwarvish wealth as hoards, and the real tragedies that befell the dwarves as a result of their GREED took place after the likely time that the Seven Rings were forged.

Now let's look at Turgon's last post. Turgon wrote of the dwarves feelings toward their wealth as:

A fierce and jealous love, not greed.

They sound pretty synonymous to me!

Later, Turgon brings up Gloin's account of the dwarves rebuilding of Dale in "Many Meetings". Of course they did a wonderful job rebuilding the town but are you suggesting that they did it for free? The dwarves who were such wonderful businessmen as so eloquently described in this debate by Ost-in-Edhil would make that degree of investment gratis? I guess this would have been the ultimate forerunner of The Marshall Plan!:rolleyes:

Finally we come to Chrysophalax's post where she writes:

If any among us can prove that greed alone led to their fall, then kudos! If not, well...

Well, that's not the debate question, is it? The debate question is "Did greed diminish the Dwarven Race?" There is no qualifier that says it was the "only" cause of their diminishment or even if it was the "main" cause of their diminishment (although any rational person would come to that conclusion after reading this debate:D ). The question was simply "Did greed diminish the Dwarven Race?" and to that, there can be no other answer than YES.

Chymaera

06-07-2003, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by baragund
The Scholars have maintained that the dwarves are greedy because they hoarded their treasures for no other purpose than it's own accumulation. Now all those wonderful things that Ancalagon describes in his post are true; the dwarves continued to accomplish great things throughout their history. Their greed by no means blotted out their good qualities.Their greed by no means blotted out their good qualities.

I think that we can agree on this point:) Thank you
a point for Ost-in-Edhil.;)

Originally posted by baragund
As far as Ancalagon's assertion regarding Thingol and the Doom of Mandos, I thank Maedhros for having my back on that one. And I again repeat it was the dwarves that instigated the treachery that led to Thingol's death and war between Doriath and Nogrod.Here is a little tidbit for you to consider:Now came Gwenniel [Melian] to Tinwelint [Thingol] and said: 'Touch not this gold [The Nauglamír] ,for my heart tells me it has been trebly cursed. Cursed indeed by the dragon's breath, and cursed by thy lieges' blood that moistens it. and the death of those they slew; but some more bitter and more binding ill methinks hangs over it that I may not see.'
The Book of Lost Tales II: The Nauglafring So we can see here that The Necklace of the Dwarves was cursed at least three ways and that all who coveted it would be ensnared in those curses. Also the Ultimate fate of the Silmaril was tied up with these curses and the Oath of Fëanor has to be factored in to any dealings that concern a Silmaril. So there was greed all around. Elves, Men, and Dwarves. All share the blame for what came about but Dwarves alone cannot be called the instigators of all that transpired in Doriath.

Originally posted by baragund
Chymaera's post that follows is more or less a restatement of Ancalagon's post of this morning. Again, nobody is disputing that the dwarves were incapable of wholesome thoughts and deeds. I will not belabour the point that that we are in agreement here.

Originally posted by baragund
Turgon brings up Gloin's account of the dwarves rebuilding of Dale in "Many Meetings". Of course they did a wonderful job rebuilding the town but are you suggesting that they did it for free? The dwarves who were such wonderful businessmen as so eloquently described in this debate by Ost-in-Edhil would make that degree of investment gratis? I guess this would have been the ultimate forerunner of The Marshall Plan!No, of course the dwarves did not work of free. Bard was a wealthy man
Yet a fourteenth share of all silver and gold wrought and unwrought, was given to Bard; for Dain said: 'We will hounor the agreements of the dead, and he has now the Arkenstone in his keeping.'

Even a fourteenth share was wealth exceedingly great, greater then thst of many mortal kings.From that treasure Bard sent much gold to the Master of Laketown; and he rewarded his followers and friends freely.
The Hobbit: The Return Journey
Those Darn Dwarves always hoarding the wealth.:) Seems to me that Dain Ironfoot was a very intelligent dwarf.

Originally posted by Maedhros
Can you give any fact from the books that states that those Elven Rings were in fact made for men
and dwarves? Can you give any facts that say that those Rings were different from each other, the
ones that Sauron gave to Men and the ones that he gave to dwarves.Of course, I cannot back up my personel opinion about the rings with quotes or facts, but I ask you to provide any facts proving me wrong ;)

Whoops!! hold on there. I just found the quote that you requested.

Three rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,

Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,

Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,

One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne

In the Land of Mordor where the Shadow lies.

One ring to rule them all, One ring to find them,

One ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them

In the Land of Mordor where the Shadow lies.
'nuff said!:p

Ancalagon

06-07-2003, 03:40 PM

It is important that we recap, we have looked at the already diminished state of Dwarven culture, long before the Rings were administered, the ravages of War that visited destruction upon them, the loss of their Kingdoms, of Belegost and Nogrod, the resulting exodus and a wandering people from these great Mansions. None of this is related to Dwarvish 'greed' but by the breaking of Nargothrond, over which they had no control.

In fact, if we look at Khazad-dûm, where a great many of the Dwarves of Belegost fled to, we can see that even Galadriel knew full well the benefits of a union between the two.
The Dwarves of Belegost were filled with dismay at the calamity and fear for its outcome, and this hastened their departure eastwards to Khazad-dûm._4 Thus the Dwarves of Moria may be presumed to have been innocent of the ruin of Doriath and not hostile to the Elves. In any case, Galadriel was more far-sighted in this than Celeborn; and she perceived from the beginning that Middle-earth could not be saved from "the residue of evil" that Morgoth had left behind him save by a union of all the peoples who were in their way and in their measure opposed to him. She looked upon the Dwarves also with the eye of a commander, seeing in them the finest warriors to pit against the Orcs. Moreover Galadriel was a Noldo, and she had a natural sympathy with their minds and their passionate love of crafts of hand, a sympathy much greater than that found among many of the Eldar: the Dwarves were "the Children of Aulë," and Galadriel, like others of the Noldor, had been a pupil of Aulë and Yavanna in Valinor. from, Unfinished Tales
Let's face it, if they are good enough for Galadriel the Far-Sighted, they are good enough for me!

However, the diminished state is not quite as dreadful as the Scholars might have us believe. Consider Erebor, the success of this realm and the relationship between Dwarves and Men and the profit for all in that region. We have seen a rejuvinated Dwarven population grow in wealth once again, without the aid of any Ring. Erebor and the Iron Hills are heavily populated with many Dwarves, especially those who had wandered for a long time ever since the darkening of Moria. Dain is still King under the Mountain and as such was clearly stated as being fabulously wealthy. He was interested, however, to hear that Dáin was still King under the Mountain, and was now old (having passed his two hundred and fiftieth year), venerable, and fabulously rich. Of the ten companions who had survived the Battle of Five Armies seven were still with him: Dwalin, Glóin, Dori, Nori, Bifur, Bofur, and Bombur.The Fellowship of the Ring
Dwarves still populate the Blue Mountains, where once long ago the great Mansions of Belegost and Nogrod had been further North. ‘At its greatest Arnor included all Eriador, except the regions beyond the Lune, and the lands east of Greyflood and Loudwater, in which lay Rivendell and Hollin. Beyond the Lune was Elvish country, green and quiet, where no Men went; but Dwarves dwelt, and still dwell, in the east side of the Blue Mountains, especially in those parts south of the Gulf of Lune, where they have mines that are still in useThe Return of the King, Appendix A.
How vast these mines remaining in the Blue Mountains are we do not know, though the number must have grew more rapidly during the Third age of the Sun, for we know clearly that many Dwarves travelled there, through Bree and past the Shire.There were, however, dwarves on the road in unusual numbers. The ancient East-West Road ran through the Shire to its end at the Grey Havens, and dwarves had always used it on their way to their mines in the Blue Mountains. They were the hobbits' chief source of news from distant parts – if they wanted any: as a rule dwarves said little and hobbits asked no more.The Fellowship of the Ring
We can see clearly that Dwarves are not entirely diminished, without War and the passing fancy of Dragons, this population can survive well enough. As has already been pointed out, Dwarves were subject to the same difficulties in re-populating their numbers as all other races, except Men. Remember, Men inherit Middle-Earth and heralded the end of all other Races. Elves did not easily bear children and their number diminished most rapidly of all races. Ents, without Wives there was no possiblity of reproduction and renewal of their race, same again for Dwarves, they were no different...it was a deliberate inclusion in Tolkiens mythology, that of the other races they would not be able to repopulate, while the race of Man could, and do so extremely rapidly.
Greed plays no part, except in that of those who assail them. Then again, that is not the question here, whether a Dragon is greedy (which they are renowned to be) and will sack the Halls of Elf, Men or Dwarves in pursuit of wealth, matters nothing to us.

Inderjit S

06-07-2003, 07:46 PM

Isn’t greed, a primary factor in the diminishment of all races? Why should the Dwarves be exempt from this, especially in the consideration that they took part in several events, that lead to their ‘diminishment’ which was a factor of their greed.

The fall of Doriath, curse of Mandos or no Curse of Mandos it was brought upon by their greed (though they were not alone in this.) As Tolkien comments

But in far, distant days the Dwarves were secretive and had few dealings with the Elves. In the West the dealings of the dwarves of the Ered Lindon with King Thingol of Doriath ended in disaster, the memory of which still poisoned the relations of Elves and Men in after ages Of Dwarves and Men; HoME 12

So we can see that the ‘greed’ of the Dwarves in their longing for the Silmarils and the Naglaumir led to the tarnishing of their relations with the Elves (Of Sylvan and Sindarin origin at least) in latter ages. Not only that but the tribes of Belegost and Nogrod, the Firebeards and Broadbeams were also greatly diminished, especially the Nogrodian dwarves and here is a case of Dwarven greed leading to their diminishment/downfall .

Or what about their delving into Khazad-dum? As Maedhros points out, they didn't need to delve so far into Khazad-dum, they already were righ and prosperous enough, yet because of their greed for Mithril they awoke a sleeping evil, they delved too far, and thus came about the ruin of the Longbeards-the greatest of all the dwarven houses.

Or what about their dealings with the Northmen in the subject on Scatha's gold? I mean it was Fram who killed Scatha, but once again the greed of the Dwarves for 'their' gold lead to them warring with their allies, like they did with the Sindar in Doriath. So these two events, in which the Dwarves fought with their allies over material things, which led to their diminishment was not a symbol of their inherent greed leading to their diminishment? Hm... (And what make their fight with the Northmen even worse was the fact that they had a long-standing friendship with them as described in Of Dwarves and Men

Or what about the other Dwarven tribes? Of Dwarves and Men tells us, that the four 'Eastern Tribes' the Ironfists, Stiffbeards, Blacklocks and Stonefoots:

Alas it seems probable that the dwarves of the far-Eastern mansiosn (and some of the neaer ones?) came under the shadow fo Morgoth and came to evil

Well, what could turn the dwarves to the dark side, so to speak? Well what did they covet? Gold, Jewels etc..therfore one can assume that the Eastern mansions turned to evil because of their love of material things and thus came under the 'shadow of Morgoth', yes? Therfore, each Dwarven house was diminished because of their greed which brought on mnay evils. Androg, also comments to Mim in the Narn i Hin Hurin that they had heard few good tales of Dwarves from the east.

Or what about the statement that beneath each Dwarven kings treasure was a Ring of Power? Or about the Dwarves who served Sauron in the Last Allaince due to the greed that the ring brought upon them or the latter effects of the Dwarvish greed due to their acceptance of the ring? Each ring seemed to be made with the weakness of the race in mind, Elves to halt their fading, Men for immortality and power and Dwarves to increase their wealth. Or what about the Petty-dwarves who were driven out their communities due to their greed and slothfulness.
(Quendi and Eldar; HoME 11) Or of the dwarves who had made alliances with the Orks as a result of their greediness as mentioned in The Hobbit

Maedhros, you make mention of Thingol and the Dwarves desire to obtain the Nauglamir, in which they had set the Silmaril. Everyone lusted after this jewel, not simply the Dwarves. One fact that should not be discounted is whether the Dwarves would have slain Thingol had Thingol not make such arrogant and insulting remarks to them

Yes, bnut they still had a inherent lust for the jewels and trouble was going to come out of it, Thingol's insult acted as a catalyst.

So you are saying that Sauron could have made another 7 Ringwraiths just by giving The 7 Dwarf-rings. What an amazing thing. The Rings of Power were made by with the assistance of Sauron and the were made to corrupt them and bring them under the control of Sauron

Dwarves due to their nature couldn't be brought to a wraith-like existence. (Myths Transformed; HoME 10)

And here is another instance of so-called dwarvish greed dwarves coming to the aid of dwarves in their time of need.

Khazad-dum was no-where near full, so they would've needed more dwarves to curve it's full potential.

Let us take a look at Erebor and see what the dwarves did with these vast hoards of golds. The Scholars see fit to compare the Dwarves of Erebor with Smaug - greedy hoarders who endlessly count their piles of ill-gotten wealth - but let us look at what they really did with these riches:

Yes, but look at Thorin's attitude to the men of Long Lake and Bilbo. He had enough jewels to wealth to freely distirbute but did he do that? Nope. He decided to act like a pompous ***. As Gandalf comments he sure wasn't making a very good king, yet.

Their greed by no means blotted out their good qualities.

We are not trying to argue that the Dwarves were a inherently evil race but their weakness, their greed lead to their diminishing.

Chymaera, on the quote from the The Nauglafring (In which incedenatally the Dwarves are a evil race) it IS a Nice quote from a outdated source, and since we are in such a mood, how about I post this:

The smities of Dwarves and Nogrod were busy in those days...and the dwarves in that time became possesed of much jewelry of Elves and Men though they did not go to war themselves 'For we do no know the right cause of this quarrel' they said 'and we favour neitther side-until one hath the mastery Early Silmarillion; HoME 5

Little point perhaps, just trying to shopw the futility of posting HoME when it has no relevance to the debate that is taking place.

Ancalagon

06-07-2003, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by Inderjit S
Isn’t greed, a primary factor in the diminishment of all races? Well, I am lost for words! This statement has just taken the wind from my sails and left me wondering where I can turn to next. Greed = The Diminishment of all races! Ents, Elves, Dwarves and Men, all defeated by their own greed, which as we know is well recorded throughout Tolkiens work. Nothing to do with 3 of those races having an inherent inability to pro-create at the rate of the other (Men), which, if I recall correctly flourished within Middle-Earth.

However, leaving this 'bombshell' aside for a moment, I would like to offer you a belated welcome to the debate InderjitS and I am glad you could join us, and I wholeheartedly suggest you read the debate before posting;)....oh, too late, you already did!

Elfarmari

06-07-2003, 08:52 PM

There is a thread discussing the origins of the ring verse here. (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11248) The general conclusion is that this verse was written after Sauron had given the rings to the races mentioned, and therefore this verse does not show that the rings were made with the intent to be given to these specific races.

I am not a master of ring-lore, but it seems improbable to me that the Elven-smiths would have made rings specifically to enslave men as wraiths and to increase the greed of the dwarves. It seems much more likely that they made these Rings of Power to help whoever wore them, and Sauron secretly added his own intentions to the rings, means to enslave the wearer whomever they should be. The mortal Kings' lust for power led to their fading as wraiths, and the dwarven-kings greed led to an enhanced greed. These effects have to do with the specific weaknesses of the races involved, and not with some specific characteristic of the rings.

Inderjit S

06-07-2003, 09:39 PM

Well, I am lost for words! This statement has just taken the wind from my sails and left me wondering where I can turn to next. Greed = The Diminishment of all races! Ents, Elves, Dwarves and Men, all defeated by their own greed, which as we know is well recorded throughout Tolkiens work. Nothing to do with 3 of those races having an inherent inability to pro-create at the rate of the other (Men), which, if I recall correctly flourished within Middle-Earth.

The Noldor, the Numenoreans, The Northmen who went to Saurons side, The Easterlings, The DWARVES, The Sindar...maybe I should have said most...

Wow, instead of correcting my off-topic 'wrong-answers' how about correctign my post? O-i-E, you seem to be arguing that the Dwarves are not evil by citing quotes proving they had unselfish aspects, but the question is not whether or not greed diminished them not whether or not the Dwarves were a good/evil race.

Chymaera

06-07-2003, 10:10 PM

Originally posted by Inderjit S
Wow, instead of correcting my off-topic 'wrong-answers' how about correctign my post? O-i-E, you seem to be arguing that the Dwarves are not evil by citing quotes proving they had unselfish aspects, but the question is not whether or not greed diminished them not whether or not the Dwarves were a good/evil race.
Actually I am waiting for the Scholar's to prove that, in fact the dwarves have indeed been diminished in any way. I am surprised that this point hasn't been touch at all.

Ost-in-Edhil have demonstrated that the Dwarves are not the monsters of greed that the Scholar's had argued for in the beginning.

Then the Scholar's claim that ALL greed from any race diminishes the dwarves. It was quite the shotgun blast.:) If you follow that logic, the collapse of Enron and Worldwide also diminished the dwarves!

So show us the diminishment.

Inderjit S

06-07-2003, 11:28 PM

Then the Scholar's claim that ALL greed from any race diminishes the dwarves. It was quite the shotgun blast. If you follow that logic, the collapse of Enron and Worldwide also diminished the dwarves!

That was not the Scholars claim it was mine. I never said that all greed from any race diminishes to dwarves, but that a race diminishing most them time (as a correction of all the time) was because of greed.

Well if you read my post and others then you will see how they diminshed. When did we say they were 'monsters of greed'? Aren't you taking this out of context?

baragund

06-08-2003, 05:12 AM

Twice today Ancalagon made statements indicating that the dwarves were unable to procreate while Men were the only race able to multiply freely. This is incorrect on two fronts.

First, dwarves were unwilling to procreate, not unable. The reasons are explored in great detail in the early parts of our debate but it boils down to:

1. Limited number of dwarf women.
2. Situations where the female loves somebody but he loves another or is not interested. Rather than pursue another, the famous stubborness of the dwarves kicks in, the woman refuses to settle for any other, and she becomes a spinster.
3. Lack of interest by dwarf men because they are only interested in their crafts (i.e. the creation and accumulation of beautiful things and wealth).

The third reason is most important becaus it contributes to #2 and makes an inherently bad situation with #1 worse.

Second, Men were not the only race who had no trouble increasing their populations. Hobbits did quite well wherever they went and orcs could "breed like flies".

At this time I'd like to take everybody step-by-step through an absolutely flagrant example of dwarvish greed and how some quite ironic circumstances prevented the outcome from being a HUGE diminishment of the dwarven, and possibly all free races.

Last night, OIE described Dain's generosity of giving Bard a share of the hoard of Erebor after the Battle of 5 Armies along with Thorin's deathbed confessions. What our worthy adversaries conveniently left out was the outrageous and repulsively greedy behavior of Thorin before the battle. It was Bard and Laketown that took the brunt of Smaug's wrath and Thorin wasn't going to give a penny to them for their trouble. In "The Gathering of the Clouds" from The Hobbit, Bilbo and the dwarves are at the Lonely Mountain. Smaug had left and they were wondering what was going on. The raven Roac arrives and informs the group that Smaug is dead, slain by the Men of Esgaroth. The bird tells them that many men are slain or homeless and that Laketown is destroyed. The remaining men along with the elves of Mirkwood are on their way to Erebor seeking "amends" from the dwarve's treasure. Here is the oh so generous response from Thorin for the Lake Men doing the dwarves dirty work:

But none of our gold shall thieves take or the violent carry off while we are alive.

Then Thorin and company set off to barricade themselves into the mountain. During this time before the Men and Elves arrived...
But also he (Bilbo) did not reckon with the power that gold has upon which a dragon has long brooded , nor with dwarvish hearts. Long hours in the past days Thorin had spent in the treasury, and the lust of it was heavy on him.

When the Men and Elves arrive and parley, Bard eventually requests a one twelfth share of the treasure to pay for the rebuilding of Lake Town and to make up for all the lives of Men that were lost in the dragon attack. Thorin replies to this very reasonable request by shooting an arrow at the messenger.

This incredibly selfish and greedy behavior on Thorin's part would have led to a hugely destructive battle between the Men of Lake Town, the Elves of Mirkwood, Thorin's company and the Dwarves of the Iron Hills. It was the arrival of Bolg and his army of orcs and wargs that caused the quarreling free peoples to unite against their common enemy. Just think of the diminishment there would have been if the orcs did not bring the dwarves to their senses? There would have been a bloody battle between dwarves, men and elves. No matter who would have "won" there would be emnity for a long time among the races, and certainly the area would not have been rebuilt anything like it turned out to be. If Bolg was a day later, he could have strolled into the Lonely Mountain, taken everything for himself, and set himself up as the new King Under the Mountain. Just think of the implications later on, as in LOTR!!

If that's not a propensity toward diminishment caused by greed, I don't know what is!

Maedhros

06-08-2003, 07:47 AM

From The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
diminish:
1. To make smaller or less.
2. To become smaller or less.
So going back to the topic we have:
Did greed diminish the dwarven race?
What are the implications of such a topic:
Scenario I
That is was greed in General, and not that of the dwarves in particular. If you take this approach then, it is certain that it is. Take only the dragons. Why did they choose to attack the dwarves? Because they were greedy for Gold. Why did dwarves had hoards of gold?
From The Hobbit
"No!" said Thorin. "There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West. Some courage and some wisdom, blended in measure. If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. But sad or merry, I must leave it now. Farewell!"
Thorin specifically says hoarded gold. Have you ever wondered why Dragons need gold? What do they ever do with it? Do they eat it? I don’t think so. The answer is that they don’t need it.
From The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
greed:
1.An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs
Why would either dwarves of Dragons need all of that gold? The answer is that they don’t need it. If the OiE says that dwarves liked to work with cooper and iron more than with gold, then why hoard gold at all? Or Mithril? Answer: because it is more expensive. It makes you wealthier?
Did that greed diminished the dwarves?
Answer: Yes, because dragons slayed a lot of dwarves thus diminishing them.

Scenario II
Restricting the Greed only to the dwarves.
Is greed a characteristic restricted to dwarves only? No. Is greed a big part in dwarven thinking? Unfortunately yes. OiE doesn’t mark the dwarves aren’t greedy, unfortunately for them, JRRT says otherwise:
From The Letters of JRRT: 203
That there is no allegory does not, of course, say there is no applicability. There always is. And since I have not made the struggle wholly unequivocal: sloth and stupidity among hobbits, pride and among Elves, grudge and greed in Dwarf-hearts, and folly and wickedness among the 'Kings of Men', and treachery and power-lust even among the 'Wizards'
Notice the distinction that JRRT makes of the races that he mentions, and that he associates greed in particular to dwarves and not to other races.
As I have stated before in Dwarven Rings 101, the rings that Sauron gave to both Men and Dwarves were essentially the same, but while it turned the human wearers to wraiths, in dwarves it only kindled their greed to a whole new level. Funny but Chymaera post that his proof that there was a difference between dwarven and human rings is the verse in LOTR. It doesn’t makes sense whatsoever. When was that verse written? Before Sauron gave the rings to the dwarves?
Consequences of their greed:
The great War between Dwarves and Orcs, had a great diminishing effect on the dwarves. They lost a lot of their race in that War. And what the reason for that War? That Thrór wanted to go to Moria to be rich again. Why couldn’t he stay with Thráin? Because it ate at him that he was poor, and he wanted to be rich again. He was not satisfied with being with his family, he wanted gold, and went to Moria. It was because of his greed that many dwarves were killed, thus leading to the diminishment of their race.
Notice that dragons attacked the dwarves because of their gold. Have you ever heard of dragons attacking The Shire and settling in there? Nooperz. Why did dwarves had that much wealth in the first place? Why would they need that much? Isn’t that the very definition of greed, to be attached to material things excessively? Yes. It is.
Since Chymaera sees fit to quote from the Tale of the Nauglamir, then I will do so too:
Therefore did Naugladur hold a secret council of the Dwarves of Nogrod, and sought how he might both be avenged upon Tinwelint, and sate his greed.
Key word greed. It’s funny the curse thing. With OiE thinking you would think that the characters in the stories have no responsibilities for their actions.
[i]Originally posted by Chymaera
So show us the diminishment.
The diminishing lies in the fact that because the dwarven races grown slowly and you have that many slaying of dwarves, the growth rate of the entire race decreases, making the population in general smaller than before the attacks. Consider the time of the attacks of the dragons and the War between Orks and Dwarves. Because the time in which those events ocurred to the end of the TA is less (78 years in the case of Erebor in contrast to the 771 years of the foundation and the attack of Smaug) then you have a lesser population.
There is the diminishment.

Maedhros

06-08-2003, 07:49 AM

Refuting Arguments from OiE:
Originally posted by Ancalagon
It is important that we recap, we have looked at the already diminished state of Dwarven culture, long before the Rings were administered, the ravages of War that visited destruction upon them, the loss of their Kingdoms, of Belegost and Nogrod, the resulting exodus and a wandering people from these great Mansions.
How did the dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod diminish? They were slain by Beren and Co. What was the motive of Beren and Co in that? To avenge the fall of Doriath? Why did the dwarves attacked Doriath in the first place? Because they were greedy and wanted the Silmaril. If what OiE says it’s true and that they wanted only the Silmaril, then why did they plunder the whole of Doriath and took all of their treasures?
OiE says it’s all the fault of the Doom of Mandos. Did Mandos force the dwarves to greed for the Silmaril? No. Did Mandos made the dwarves take the other treasures of Doriath? No. Why did the dwarves take them then? Because they were greedy. Simple. Characters need to take responsibility for their actions too.

Originally posted by Ancalagon
However, the diminished state is not quite as dreadful as the Scholars might have us believe. Consider Erebor, the success of this realm and the relationship between Dwarves and Men and the profit for all in that region. We have seen a rejuvinated Dwarven population grow in wealth once again, without the aid of any Ring. Erebor and the Iron Hills are heavily populated with many Dwarves, especially those who had wandered for a long time ever since the darkening of Moria. Dain is still King under the Mountain and as such was clearly stated as being fabulously wealthy.
It is a simple matter of logic. We know for a fact that dwarven population grow slowly. If the ratio given in the appendix is applied correct then we have the following case.
Erebor was populated in 1999 TA under Thráin I and founds the Dwarf-Kingdom under the mountain. They grew through time until 2770 TA when Smaug attacked them. There is a time interval of 771 years. Now consider that it is in 2941 TA when dwarves again populate Erebor and the time at the end of the Third Age ends is in 3019. The time interval is 78 years. It is totally illogical to assume that a dwarven race who grows slowly over time, in 78 years would be as big as one who had 771 years of existence. They may have grown over the time but, their population at the third age cannot be compared to that before the attack on Erebor. In the Big picture they were diminished. They were less than they were before the attack on Erebor.
Originally posted by Ancalagon
We can see clearly that Dwarves are not entirely diminished, without War and the passing fancy of Dragons, this population can survive well enough.
Careful, do not use diminish in place of extinct. To say that dwarves are entirely diminish (To become smaller or less), means either that dwarves have become too small to point of extinction or that they have reach the threshold of not being a viable population. That is outside the scope of the debate.
Originally posted by Ancalagon
Elves did not easily bear children and their number diminished most rapidly of all races.
Careful, do you have facts to support this? Do you know the growth rate of elven populations? Do you known how many elves they were in ME or in Valinor? Facts and not words.
Originally posted by Ancalagon
Then again, that is not the question here, whether a Dragon is greedy (which they are renowned to be) and will sack the Halls of Elf, Men or Dwarves in pursuit of wealth, matters nothing to us.
Silly me, I thought the question was:
Did greed diminish the dwarven race?
Must have missed the note where it says that it isn’t. Then again you have to wonder, why did dragons choose to attack dwarven halls in particular? Simple, the greed of dwarves made them want more and more riches and it attracted the dragons.

Ancalagon

06-08-2003, 09:35 PM

Originally posted by Maedhros
Refuting Arguments from OiE:
How did the dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod diminish? They were slain by Beren and Co. What was the motive of Beren and Co in that? To avenge the fall of Doriath? Why did the dwarves attacked Doriath in the first place? Because they were greedy and wanted the Silmaril. If what OiE says it’s true and that they wanted only the Silmaril, then why did they plunder the whole of Doriath and took all of their treasures?
OiE says it’s all the fault of the Doom of Mandos. Did Mandos force the dwarves to greed for the Silmaril? No. Did Mandos made the dwarves take the other treasures of Doriath? No. Why did the dwarves take them then? Because they were greedy. Simple. Characters need to take responsibility for their actions too.

Originally posted by Maedhros Facts, not words
Maedhros, let us look at a few facts you have conveniently omitted from your generalised, unresearched statement regarding the death of King Thingol and the 'Sacking of Menegroth.'
You have conveniently included the Dwarves of Belegost in your sweeping statement in order to attempt to associate them in a weak arguement about 'greed' equalling the diminishment of all Dwarves, especially in relation to the actions in Doriath. Sorry, but neither 'guilt' nor 'association' can be levelled at Belegost in this case. In fact, I will totally repudiate the allegation of 'greed' being the motive for the remaining force of Nogrod descending upon Doriath after the slaying of their brethern on the Southern road to the Aros.
Now, no-one will deny that lust overcame the workforce of Dwarves who remade the Nauglamir in which they inset a Silmaril. Lust indeed took them, as it took any who saw its beauty and so desired it for themselves. Thingol himself became so enamoured of it that it filled his every thought; For as the years passed Thingol's thought turned unceasingly to the jewel of Fëanor, and became bound to it, and he liked not to let it rest even behind the doors of his inmost treasury; and he was minded now to bear it with him always, waking and sleeping Both Thingol and the Dwarves were subject ot the curse of Mandos, both were guilty of lusting for this jewel, especially set within the Nauglamir, the greatest of the works of Dwarves at that time. Veiled excuses do not detract from this, for the desire to possess this 'thing' was greater than the ability to restrain oneself from its charm. Both fell foul of Mandos' prophecy and tears unnumbered were shed as a result.
However, greed did not lead to the sack of Menegroth, nor was greed an incentive for the mobilisation of Nogrod's main army to avenge the death of their brothers. This fell firmly on the lies of the two that escaped the slaughter of Aros.Yet two there were of the slayers of Thingol who escaped from the pursuit on the eastern marches, and returned at last to their city far off in the Blue Mountains; and there in Nogrod they told somewhat of all that had befallen, saying that the Dwarves were slain in Doriath by command of the Elvenking, who thus would cheat them of their reward. It was not greed that led to the wrath of the Dwarves and the thought of vengeance, it was the lies told by the two who escaped and brought the tidings to the Mansion of Nogrod. Whereas we know the small force who remade the Neckless were guilty for their actions, the main assault was motivated by wrath and vengeance, though fuelled by lies. Remember, Dwarves are 'secret and quick to resentment' nor do they suffer aggression against their own kin. A warlike race of old were all the Naugrim, and they would fight fiercely against whomsoever aggrieved them: servants of Melkor, or Eldar, or Avari, or wild beasts, or not seldom their own kin, Dwarves of other mansions and lordships The Silmarillion
Yet, even in this the Dwarves of Belegost held their temper, for they knew only woe and death would come as a result. Whereas we can fully empathise with the Dwarves of Nogrod, who hearing lies from their own, had to act, had to wreak vengeance upon the assailants and had to do so with force and violence. There is no love lost between Elves and Dwarves. Consider Caranthir and his kindred in their dealings with the Naugrim! Caranthir was haughty and scarce concealed his scorn for the unloveliness of the Naugrim, and his people followed their lord.The Silmarillion In the eyes of Elves they were 'stunted and unlovely' which when one considers Thingol's derision of the Naugrim prior to his death in conjunction with the lies of the two who escaped, it seems justification enough for the Nogrod Dwarves to hasten their punishment upon his kin. Yet, it would seem easy to tar all Dwarves with the 'greed' brush and for the purpose of trying to pointscore in a debate, disregarding and disparaging the attempts of those from Belegost to dissaude the Nogrod Dwarves from their actions. These are the self-same Dwarves who stood firm and won renown for their bavery in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, who suffered great losses at the hands of Morgoth's armies, yet repelled the onslaught of Glaurung and his brood, preventing total devastation upon Maedhros and the remaining Noldor. One wonders if this was the catalyst that brought the destructive power of Dragons ever most upon the Dwarven realms in the later ages? The Naugrim of Belegost were not driven by greed or motivated by a lust for anything other than the freedom and right to mine, carve, design and create from the very rock they themselves were hewn. The Dwarves of Belegost were filled with dismay at the calamity and fear for its outcome, and this hastened their departure eastwards to Khazad-dûm._Thus the Dwarves of Moria may be presumed to have been innocent of the ruin of Doriath and not hostile to the Elves. Unfinished Tales The flight of the Belegost Naugrim to Khazad-dûm enriched an already vibrant culture and brought new skills to this vast Mansion. At the very least we know clearly that after the advent of the Rings and Saurons assault upon Khazad-dûm, that within this greatest bastion of Dwarvish power, Dwarves long remained unhindered by the ravages of war, yet, even over time, within these walls, the Dwarvish people had already begun to dwindle, long before the awakening of Durin's Bane. the halls of Khazad-dûm were too deep and strong and filled with a people too numerous and valiant for Sauron to conquer from without. Thus its wealth remained long unravished, though its people began to dwindle.
Now, we come to the Rings of Power and the 7 that were partially wrought with Saurons influence upon them. in truth, little is actually known about the 7 and especially of any corrupting power they may have had upon the Dwarven Lords who wore them. Consider the Ring of Thrór and his passing of the Ring to Thráin. The words 'it needs Gold to breed Gold' actually means little in helping us understand the power of the Ring itself, though it is normally misquoted as a suggestion 'it needs greed to breed greed.' The fact remains, the Ring itself does not create gold, it does not manufacture gold nor does it locate gold. The Ring was never designed to make Dwarves wealthy, it was designed to bring its bearer under the dominion of Sauron. Yet, we know the Rings themselves had no effect on the will of Dwarves, so therefore we cannot assume they ever truly betrayed their keepers to Saurons benefit. Consider this quote; The only power over them that the Rings wielded was to inflame their hearts with a greed of gold and precious things, so that if they lacked them all other good things seemed profitless, and they were filled with wrath and desire for vengeance on all who deprived them. But they were made from their beginning of a kind to resist most steadfastly any domination. Though they could be slain of broken, they could not be reduced to shadows enslaved to another will; and for the same reason their lives were not affected by any Ring, to live either longer or shorter because of it. All the more did Sauron hate the possessors and desire to dispossess them.The Return of the King The power of the Rings only affected the bearer, though not leading to dominion of their will, a lust for precious metals was not sufficient to actually diminish the Dwarves in itself. It was therefore perhaps partly by the malice of the Ring that Thráin after some years became restless and discontented. The lust for gold was ever in his mind. At last, when he could endure it no longer, he turned his thoughts to Erebor, and resolved to go back there.He said nothing to Thorin of what was in his heart; but with Balin and Dwalin and a few others, he arose and said farewell and departed.The Return of the King Why then did Sauron wish the return of the Rings, even if 'lust and greed' caused by their power, (although it was an unforeseen consequence) did not serve Saurons purpose in reducing the effectiveness of the Dwarves? These Rings did not do their job to the satisfaction of Sauron, that is the very reason he wanted them back! It is said that the foundation of each of the Seven Hoards of the Dwarf-kings of old was a golden ring; but all those hoards long ago were plundered and the Dragons devoured them, and of the Seven Rings some were consumed in fire and some Sauron recovered.The SilmarillionNote: 'it is said' in this quote from The Silmarillion does not mean that greed led to the recovery or loss of the Rings. Dragons desired wealth and Dwarves had always had it. Sauron desired his Rings back which he took by force, not because the Dwarves had amassed any more wealth as a consequence, but simply because they did not bow down to his will and therefore proved 'untameable'.

Inderjit S

06-09-2003, 12:00 AM

Both Thingol and the Dwarves were subject ot the curse of Mandos, both were guilty of lusting for this jewel, especially set within the Nauglamir, the greatest of the works of Dwarves at that time. Veiled excuses do not detract from this, for the desire to possess this 'thing' was greater than the ability to restrain oneself from its charm. Both fell foul of Mandos' prophecy and tears unnumbered were shed as a result.

Oh yeah..Mandos curse. So of course the dwarves could be excused 'cos we had the curse on us and stuff-blah take that mo'foin Elves, feel the wraths of our axes'. Ever heard of free will? It seems not.

Their GREED meant they lusted after the Silmaril (Amazing I know lust is caused by greed:rolleyes: ) but of course following your inane logic the curse of Mandos meant it wasn't their fault? whoop-de-doo!

In fact, I will totally repudiate the allegation of 'greed' being the motive for the remaining force of Nogrod descending upon Doriath after the slaying of their brethern on the Southern road to the Aros.

Yes well they went in the intention to take back their jewel because of their greed. But look at it in larger picture-the greed of the craftsman led to the sacking of Doriath and the diminshing of the Nogrodians, therfore greed led to the fall of the dwarves.

In the eyes of Elves they were 'stunted and unlovely'

Wow. Well the Elves couldnt help what their eyes saw and you are quoting from one of the worst Elves, thought. Quendi and Eldar states they only called them 'Naugrim' amongst themselves, I'm sure the Dwarves had a few choice name for the Elves too.

Note: 'it is said' in this quote from The Silmarillion does not mean that greed led to the recovery or loss of the Rings.

If you hadn't noticed a lot of things are begun with the words 'it is said'. Does that mean diddly squat? No.

Ancalagon

06-09-2003, 12:08 AM

Maedhros

06-09-2003, 12:46 AM

Originally posted by Ancalagon
Now, no-one will deny that lust overcame the workforce of Dwarves who remade the Nauglamir in which they inset a Silmaril. Lust indeed took them, as it took any who saw its beauty and so desired it for themselves.
Just what is lust:
1. An overwhelming desire or craving: a lust for power.
2. To have an intense or obsessive desire

and what is greed:
An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
The topic is:
Did greed diminish the Dwarven Race?
Why would the dwarves need a Silmaril for? They had lived just fine without it. The dwarves had an excessive desire to acquire the Silmaril, something that they didn’t need, and an excessive desire to acquire something that you don’t need is the very definition of greed.
The motif of the attack of the dwarves on Doriath begins with the Greed of the dwarves that wanted the Silmaril. All of what happened afterwards was a consequence of that. If the dwarves didn’t greed for it, none of what happened afterwards would have happened and the dwarves would have not been dimished. And that is a fact.
Are dwarves mindless automatons? No. Are dwarves responsible for their actions? Of course they are. Did Mandos go to ME and made the dwarves kill Thingol? Of course not, it all came from the dwarves themselves. Are the dwarves the only race subject to greed? Of course not, but they are the ones who are most associated by it.

Originally posted by Ancalagon
It was not greed that led to the wrath of the Dwarves and the thought of vengeance, it was the lies told by the two who escaped and brought the tidings to the Mansion of Nogrod. Whereas we know the small force who remade the Neckless were guilty for their actions, the main assault was motivated by wrath and vengeance, though fuelled by lies. Remember, Dwarves are 'secret and quick to resentment' nor do they suffer aggression against their own kin.
And why did those dwarves wanted vengeance? Because some dwarves lusted for something that they didn’t need, and to lust for something that you don’t need is the very definition of greed. The motif is greed.

Originally posted by Ancalagon
The Naugrim of Belegost were not driven by greed or motivated by a lust for anything other than the freedom and right to mine, carve, design and create from the very rock they themselves were hewn.
Consider this. If the dwarves that were in Doriath, didn’t lust for the silmaril, there would have been no motif for the Naugrim of Belegost to fight in Doriath. Again, no greed by some dwarves, no diminishment of a great part of them.

Originally posted by Ancalagon
The power of the Rings only affected the bearer, though not leading to dominion of their will, a lust for precious metals was not sufficient to actually diminish the Dwarves in itself.
Consider this. Rings made the dwarven kings eager for wealth, more wealth that they would ever need. (Greed) Dragons are greedy by nature, and where can they find riches? In the Halls of the Dwarves of course. Therefore dragons go to those Halls, kills lots of dwarves and diminishes them. Simple.

Originally posted by Ancalagon
Dragons desired wealth and Dwarves had always had it. Sauron desired his Rings back which he took by force, not because the Dwarves had amassed any more wealth as a consequence, but simply because they did not bow down to his will and therefore proved 'untameable'.
Notice the statement in bold:
Dragons desired wealth and Dwarves had always had it with
not because the Dwarves had amassed any more wealth as a consequence
We have here causality:
Cause: Greed of the dwarves made them accumulate more wealth that they would ever need.
Effect: Greed of dragons made them go to their Halls and seize their riches, killing lots of dwarves and diminishing them.
Note: Notice that the dragons attacked the dwarves after they had received the Rings given to the by Sauron.

Inderjit S

06-09-2003, 04:32 PM

That was all very skillfully debated InderjitS (whoop-de-what?), even the poor attempt at ridiculing my description of why 'greed' absolutely did not play a part in the 'Nogrod Naugrim's' vengeance upon Doriath has to be admired for its all-encompassing inaccuracy

Oh-wow..the Irish sarcasm strikes again! Well done! Now, if you actually want to make a post dealing with/critsizing my post then go ahead, and give examples of this 'poor attempt at ridiculing' and a'all ecompassing incacuracy' Heck, Anc. if this was a debate about being the most sarcastic or pendantic (Nogrod Naugrim, wow) person you might (What am I say might for) you WILL win, but sadly (this may come as a suprise to you-this is a debate in which we are arguing the greed of the Dwarves. So next time you make a remarck about my post/s at least back your points up with PROOF or quotes from me instead of introducing your little bit of 'Irish sarcasm'.

chrysophalax

06-09-2003, 05:23 PM

"Their GREED meant they lusted after the Silmaril (Amazing I know lust is caused by greed ) but of course following your inane logic the curse of Mandos meant it wasn't their fault? whoop-de-doo!"

Now gentlemen, please...let's not have this degenerate into a brawl. Inderjit, I believe you wanted to know why Ancalagon brought forth his bit of vitupuration? See above quote, please.

While this has not been a good debate for me personally, it has been most delightful to watch unfold. Let us not sway the judges into unwanted thought patterns with name-calling and heated words.

Maedhros

06-09-2003, 05:47 PM

Ok people, please try and stay with the topic. It's about refuting the other team arguements not the persons themselves.

Ancalagon

06-09-2003, 11:25 PM

My apologies InderjitS, I thought I had replied with a full response to your previous post, though I had nothing more to add because I did not feel there was anything to answer.

Maedhros, once again let me congratulate you on a well prepared post, it is clear when time and effort is invested in one's work.
However, I must deal with a number of points you have raised as I do not feel they fully vindicate your argement, rather they bolster Ost-in-Edhil, which of course is perfectly fine and actually rather an honourable thing to do.

Chrysophalax has clearly pointed out how the Scholars use of inane logic has led to some rather dreadful and tenuous links to associate Dwarves with Greed in every action. In particular, those actions of Dwarves of the ancient realms. Nogrod, Belegost and Khazad-Dum were never built upon principles of greed, even though they sought recompense for their work in the service of either Elves or Men. There is nothing wrong with seeking a fair days pay for a fair days work, or is that also considered greedy? Of the ancient Naugrim, greed was never a contributing factor to gaining wealth or in wealth creation, the very fact they mine so labouriously for minerals that add to wealth creation is commendable, because in all of Middle-Earth, no other race or creature works in the deep chasms in such a manner. They are entitled to keep what they find, for they are mining in the very caverns in which they were placed by their father, Mahal. Aulë has might little less than Ulmo. His lordship is over all the substances of which Arda is made. In the beginning he wrought much in fellowship with Manwë and Ulmo; and the fashioning of all lands was his labour. He is a smith and a master of all crafts, and he delights in works of skill, however small, as much as in the mighty building of old. His are the gems that lie deep in the Earth and the gold that is fair in the hand, no less than the walls of the mountains and the basins of the sea. They belong to the substance of Arda more than any, for Aulë fashioned them from it, so should it surprise anyone that they have such a natural affinity with it and all that comes from it? Gems and gold, precious minerals and metals that Aulë buried deep in the earth, one might think they were given as gifts for his own children to discover!

You made reference to Mandos and the curse upon both the Noldor and the Silmarils and in relation to the slaying of Thingol. Originally posted by MaedhrosDid Mandos go to ME and made the dwarves kill Thingol?Now, you cannot seriously attempt to disregard the Doom of Mandos as a non-entity in the unfolding