Who weaves the fate of the Ring?

[Ancalagon]

'Listen to me, Thorin Oakenshield !' I said. 'If this hobbit goes with you, you will succeed. If not, you will fail. A foresight is on me, and I am warning you.'Unfinished Tales

This warning Gandalf gives to Thorin when initially discussing the plans to retake The Lonely Mountian and remove Smaug. It is interesting to not Gandalf's insistence on the matter, being so prophetic that it is. In a latter conversation between Gandalf, Gimli, Pippin and Frodo, more is revealed, yet still leaves many questions unanswered; But I remember this conversation very clearly. Gimli was there with us, and he said to Peregrin: "There is a thing I must do one of these days: I must visit that Shire of yours.* Not to see more Hobbits! I doubt if I could learn anything about them that I do not know already. But no Dwarf of the House of Durin could fail to look with wonder on that land. Did not the recovery of the Kingship under the Mountain, and the fall of Smaug, begin there? Not to mention the end of Barad-dûr, though both were strangely woven together. Strangely, very strangely," he said, and paused.
Then looking hard at Gandalf he went on: "But who wove the web? I do not think I have ever considered that before. Did you plan all this then, Gandalf? If not, why did you lead Thorin Oakenshield to such an unlikely door? To find the Ring and bring it far away into the West for hiding, and then to choose the Ringbearer – and to restore the Mountain Kingdom as a mere deed by the way: was not that your design?"
Gandalf did not answer at once. He stood up, and looked out of the window, west, seawards; and the sun was then setting, and a glow was in his face. He stood so a long while silent. But at last he turned to Gimli and said: "I do not know the answer. For I have changed since those days, and I am no longer trammelled by the burden of Middle-earth as I was then. In those days I should have answered you with words like those I used to Frodo, only last year in the spring. Only last year! But such measures are meaningless. In that far distant time I said to a small and frightened Hobbit: Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker, and you therefore were meant to bear it. And I might have added: and I was meant guide you both to those points.
"To do that I used in my waking mind only such means as were allowed to me, doing what lay to my hand according to such reasons as I had. But what I knew in my heart, or knew before I stepped on these grey shores: that is another matter. Olórin I was in the West that is forgotten, and only to those who are there shall I speak openly."Unfinished Tales

This has been a question pondered many times, in particular in relation to divine influence upon the fates of these times. It would seem from this and Gandalf's own understanding in hindsight, that the downfall of Sauron must have been inevitable, pre-ordained and long mapped-out in advance.

Do you subscribe to this theory? Do you think all this was supposed to happen or is it simply coincidence? Did Manwe or Eru influence the downfall of Sauron?

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
Do you subscribe to this theory? Do you think all this was supposed to happen or is it simply coincidence? Did Manwe or Eru influence the downfall of Sauron?

I do believe that Gandalf did have the begginings of a plan in his mind. Surely as he had viewed Arda from without in the very beggining he saw the "future" until the dominion of Men (the quote about this is in the Sil). Therefore he must have known more than he let up about how Sauron was to fall.
He was also a Maia of Manwe (closest in thought to Ilúvatar) and so we must assume that Gandalf was of like mind (in many instances) of Ilúvatar aswell.
I do believe that Eru did help out in both cases (of the Quest for Erabor and the Quest of Mount Doom). No one has as much "luck" as Bilbo and Frodo had without a good reason. Wouldn't you help if you saw your creations being swallowed up by darkness? But the difference between how Ilúvatar "interfiers" and how the Valar "interfier", is that while the Valar use might and full scale battles to remove evil, (which never whole worked anyway), Ilúvatar uses subtle actions, like Bilbo and Gollum finding the ring (it was to perfect), but these two little incidents (among other small incidences (sp)), worked out a lot better than waging wars and taring up the lands. In short, Ilúvatars interfierence is perfect and never fails, but the Valars is not as lives are lost and the land structure is changed.

Thôl

[Eriol]

I don't think that Ilúvatar's interference means complete preordainment. There are many occasions in the story in which a person could have changed the fate of all -- for worse. An example is Bilbo killing Gollum when he had the chance. I don't think Bilbo could not have killed Gollum -- but this would be the logical conclusion if we assume that it was all perfectly preordained.

There are also some subtle personal choices that could have worked for the best. Most of them, curiously enough, where within Gandalf's province. For instance, he could have returned to the Shire instead of writing the Butterbur letter.

I think that Ilúvatar can weave out of the web of personal choices a good result -- but that is not to say that there is perfect preordainment. Perfect foreknowledge, perhaps, but not preordainment.

(This last sentence always breeds a lot of dicussion ;) ).

[Celebthôl]

LOL not with me, i don't know what half the big words mean :o

[Chymaera]

from the Ainulidalë
Then Ilúvatar arose, and the Ainur preceived that he smiled; and he lifted his left hand, and a new theme began amid the storm, like and yet unlike to the former theme, and it gathered power and had new beauty. But the discord of Melkor rose in uproar and contended with it, and again there was a war of sound more violent than before, until many of the Ainur were dismayed and sang no longer, and Melkor had the mastery. Then again Ilúvatar arose, and the Ainur preceived that his contenance was stern; and he held up his right hand, and behold! a third theme grew amid the confusion, and it was unlike the other. For it seemed at first soft and sweet, a mere rippling of gentle sounds in delicate melodies; but it could not be quenched, and it took to itself power and profundity. And it seemed at last that there were two musics progressing at one time before the seat of Ilúvatar, and they were utterly at variance. The one was deep and wide and beautiful, but slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which its beauty chiefly came. The other had now achived a unity of its own; but it was loud, and vain, and endlessly repeated; and it had little harmony, but rather a clamorous unison as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes. And it essayed to drown the other music by the violence of its voice, but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken by the other and woven into its own solemn pattern.
In the midst of the strife, whereat the halls of Ilúvatar shook and a tremor ran out into the silences yet unmoved, Ilúvatar arose a third time, and his face was terrible to behold. Then he raised up both hands, and in one chord, deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Ilúvatar, the Music ceased. The Music of the Ainur, created the world and caused all things to be. Here is where all things were foreordained.
Gandalf was part of this music and he had some knowledge of the whole, but he knew best his own part.

The Fate of the ring should be found in the clamours repeating parts of Melkor, I would think;)


Also as a side note I think that we can conclude that Trumpets are instruments of Evil.:D

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
Do you think all this was supposed to happen or is it simply coincidence? Did Manwe or Eru influence the downfall of Sauron?

From Letter #181:

But at this point the 'salvation' of the world and Frodo's own 'salvation' is achieved by his previous pity and forgiveness of injury. At any point any prudent person would have told Frodo that Gollum would certainly betray him, and could rob him in the end. To 'pity' him, to forbear to kill him, was a piece of folly, or a mystical belief in the ultimate value-in-itself of pity and generosity even if disastrous in the world of time. He did rob him and injure him in the end – but by a 'grace', that last betrayal was at a precise juncture when the final evil deed was the most beneficial thing any one cd. have done for Frodo! By a situation created by his 'forgiveness', he was saved himself, and relieved of his burden. He was very justly accorded the highest honours – since it is clear that he & Sam never concealed the precise course of events. Into the ultimate judgement upon Gollum I would not care to enquire. This would be to investigate 'Goddes privitee', as the Medievals said. Gollum was pitiable, but he ended in persistent wickedness, and the fact that this worked good was no credit to him.

I think Ilúvatar put his foot in it more than once, but like Eriol said, not complete preordainment.

[Ancalagon]

Originally posted by Chymaera
[B]Gandalf was part of this music and he had some knowledge of the whole, but he knew best his own part.
The Fate of the ring should be found in the clamours repeating parts of Melkor, I would think;)

Surely if Gandalf foresaw it, then so too would Sauron being a part of the music himself?

[Elendil3119]

I think the real question is a bit larger than 'Did Eru intervene in the War of the Ring?'. Did the Music of the Ainur only pertain to the actual creation of Arda? Or was it the foreordainment of everything that would come to pass in Arda? If it was, then Eru did foreordain the fate of the Ring.

[Ancalagon]

So where does Free Will and non-intervention in the fates of Men come inot play?

[Arvedui]

From The Music of the Ainur: Then Ilúvater spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'
I think this quote should show that the downfall of Sauron must have been inevitable.
But I don't know if I would agree that it was pre-ordained or even mapped-out long in advance.

The Istari were sent to ME to help the free people to bring about the downfall of Sauron. This was done by the Valar "desiring to amend the errors of old." And they were also sent "with the consent of Eru."
But: the Istari were not supposed to bring about the downfall themselves, but to "advice and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt." (All quotes in brackets are from The Istari.)
But Men had still the choice to decide themselves if they would want to hearken to the advice of the Istari, or not. Therefore, the Free Will was still one of the gifts of Ilúvatar, and not tampered with.
At least the way I see it....

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
So where does Free Will and non-intervention in the fates of Men come inot play?
Exactly what I was going to ask! :)

Really! One would say that Men were created with that "special gift" and that they did not fit in the "picture" painted by the Music. And it could be true and it could leave us wondering about the true role of this race....
But I would like also to bring forward another poin: If all was preordained in and by the Music, if all that happened - all the wars and the creation of wonders and their destruction and all the woes and evils... Was all that seen in the very first image of Arda that Iluvatar showed to the Ainur? Because, wasn't that particular vision that the Ainur then tried to create materially by their Music? And if so, then it seems all had come from some plan of Eru the all-mighty....
But this plan I can not and I do not understand!!!
Why on earth was it necessary to create such a beauty, such a wonderful place in the Void and let it be filled with horror, wars, evil? Why create sensible creatures and then let them be guided by emotions but by no just reason? Why create lands and later destroy them? Why create life and let it be easily taken away? Why create immortality and let it be a burden?
Lots of "Why"-s ;), I admit!
But I cannot quite grasp the fundaments of Tolkien's mythology and I'm trying to understand.
The last "Why" - Why does T. base his mythology upon factors like "doom", "fate" , prophecies, curses - all = preorder?

Opinions?

[Eriol]

The music did not go all the way through the history of Arda; and each Ainur only catched a small glimpse of it. So none of them had complete foreknowledge of anything, not even in the beginning.

The plan of Eru is quite simply: the best possible. :eek: I know you will tell me that Melkor, Glaurung, the curse of Túrin, Númenor, Sauron, etc., etc., etc., can't be considered in any way as "the best possible plan".

Take it up with Eru :D.

I'm being quite serious here. The quote provided by Arvedui shows that whatever happens, not matter how evil it seems to the participants, results in the greater glory of Arda. And free will is one of the main ingredients. (By the way, I don't see this distinction between elves and men regarding free will, at least not as defined as some people propose. So it was Fëanor's fate to be a jerk? I think he had a lot of free-will, just like any other soul. And wouldn't Galadriel's "test" be meaningless if it was a "doom"?).

Any other impression we might have is misguided, presuming that Eru failed. But we know he can't fail.

[Arvedui]

Free Will, IMO, goes for all.
The way I see it, nothing else is possible, which is described very well by Ilúvatar himself:
And the voice of Ilúvatar said to him: 'Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own being only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thou thought be elsewhere, standing idle. Is that thy desire?'
Remember this? From The Silmarillion, when Ilúvatar discoveres that Aulë have made the Dwarves.

This is how all creatures would be depending on the thought of Eru to be able to do anything. Therefore, free will is given to all.

[Arvedui]

This thread is moved out of the Guild of Ost-in-Edhil. IMO, quite an interesting topic, at least before it ended in another "Free Will" discussion. If anyone have thougths on the original topic, feel free to add them.

[Lhunithiliel]

Free Will, IMO, goes for all.
The way I see it, nothing else is possible, which is described very well by Ilúvatar himself:
And the voice of Ilúvatar said to him: 'Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own being only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thou thought be elsewhere, standing idle. Is that thy desire?'
Remember this? From The Silmarillion, when Ilúvatar discoveres that Aulë have made the Dwarves.

This is how all creatures would be depending on the thought of Eru to be able to do anything. Therefore, free will is given to all.
A strange conclusion, Arv! :rolleyes:
To me, that particular quote fills me with 'despair' thinking that it is all pre-ordained and pre-destined by Eru, and that it seems as if he had built a 'puppet-theatre' for himself and let the 'puppets' perform exciting shows ... and he only sits and has fun watching those performances, and from time to time, when the 'strings' get into a mess, only then he interfers to fix things right and goes on watching the 'show'.

Where is the free will then? :confused:
In entangling the 'strings' ?

[Arvedui]

I think it is unfair that you hit me from behind with badly written post from history .... :( :D :D :D

What I tried to explain was that Eru gave each race free will, so that he didn't have to 'manage the puppets' all the time!
Maybe he was too lazy, maybe he knew that he and the Ainur didn't have the capacity to take care of the control-span required to keep all the 'puppets' in activity.

Or perhaps he knew that we would be filled with despair if we were all controlled by an unseen hand all the time. And what is the point in creating the largest possible 'puppet theatre' if you are the only spectator, as well as the director and producer and script-writer?

But the Children are his creation, and from that he knows more or less what they are capable off.

[Celebthôl]

I think it is unfair that you hit me from behind with badly written post from history .... :( :D :D :D

What I tried to explain was that Eru gave each race free will, so that he didn't have to 'manage the puppets' all the time!
Maybe he was too lazy, maybe he knew that he and the Ainur didn't have the capacity to take care of the control-span required to keep all the 'puppets' in activity.

Or perhaps he knew that we would be filled with despair if we were all controlled by an unseen hand all the time. And what is the point in creating the largest possible 'puppet theatre' if you are the only spectator, as well as the director and producer and script-writer?

Well, didn't he give them free-will so as to watch them live on their own, so he could enjoy it? In your words Arv, he was the audience and the puppets themselves were the directors and producers, although they were not aware of it, making the story of their lives etc that much more interesting. Thats my take on things anyway.

[Lhunithiliel]

I think it is unfair that you hit me from behind with badly written post from history .
Oooops.... Sorry! But you know how those d*** wraiths are! :p :D

What I tried to explain was that Eru gave each race free will, so that he didn't have to 'manage the puppets' all the time!
And how, if I may ask, had he done that? Where to find it? If every essential element was sung in the Music and then he explicitly occupied himself with creating the Children etc... Where is the place of free will? The Valar even didn't have it! Not to mention from them downwards in the ierarchy :confused:
Or perhaps he knew that we would be filled with despair if we were all controlled by an unseen hand all the time. And what is the point in creating the largest possible 'puppet theatre' if you are the only spectator, as well as the director and producer and script-writer?

But the Children are his creation, and from that he knows more or less what they are capable off.
Joke on :p ... but try to see it simple >> if you make something with your own hands, based on your own thoughts and vision, for the purpose of your own use it ... wouldn't you know what it is going to be used for?

Now ... if I were you, I would immediately object to my own lines thus: ;) :D
if you make something with your own hands, based on your own thoughts and vision, for the purpose of using it ... wouldn't you know what it is going to be used for?
Yes, Lhun, I shall know what to use it for, but I can't possibly know what will happen to it - shall it break?, shall it be fit for use after all?, shall its colour fade with time?, shall I not throw it out one day? ...
So, you see, Lhun, one cannot foresee the future entirely, and therefore there's always a place for the free will! ;) :D

Besides, why do you say that he made them for 'his own use'!!! He did not!

Thol, have I told you that I am so glad to see you around again?!!!! :)

[Barliman Butterbur]

This warning Gandalf gives to Thorin when initially discussing the plans to retake The Lonely Mountian and remove Smaug...Do you think all this was supposed to happen or is it simply coincidence? Did Manwe or Eru influence the downfall of Sauron?

What needs to be remembered is that none of this was included in the final form of either The Hobbit (in which it could have been prologue) or LOTR, by Tolkien's choice. Fascinating reading for us, but in the final form of the works — it never happened!

Barley

[Lhunithiliel]

What needs to be remembered is that none of this was included in the final form of either The Hobbit (in which it could have been prologue) or LOTR, by Tolkien's choice. Fascinating reading for us, but in the final form of the works — it never happened!

Barley
Please, Barley, I've been reading this post so many times .... and still, I can't see your point, and I'm sure it's just me who does not understand it, while it is ...out/in there !
Spell it out for me, please! :o

[Gothmog]

What needs to be remembered is that none of this was included in the final form of either The Hobbit (in which it could have been prologue) or LOTR, by Tolkien's choice. Fascinating reading for us, but in the final form of the works — it never happened!

Barley
How certain are you that "it never happened!". The meeting itself most certainly did happen and was included in Tolkien's final version in the Appendices.

Appendix A: III: Durin's Folk
But at last there came about by chance a meeting between Gandalf and Thorin that changed all the fortunes of the House of Durin, and led to other and greater ends beside. On a time50 Thorin, returning west from a journey, stayed at Bree for the night. There Gandalf was also. He was on his way to the Shire, which he had not visited for some twenty years. Hee was weary, and thought to rest there for a while.
Among many cares he was troubled in mind by the perilous state of the North; because he knew then already that Sauron was plotting war, and intended, as soon as he felt strong enough, to attack Rivendell. But to resist any attempt from the East to regain the lands of Angmar and the northern passes in the mountains there were now only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills. And beyond them lay the desolation of the Dragon. the Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect. How then could the end of Smaug be achieved?
It was even as Gandalf sat and pondered this that Thorin stood before him, and said: 'Master Gandalf, I know you only by sight, but now I should be glad to speak with you. For you have often come into my thoughts of late, as if I were bidden to seek you. Indeed I should have done so, if I had known where to find you.'
Gandalf looked at him with wonder. 'that is strange. Thorin Oakenshield,' he said. ' For I have thought of you also; and though I am on my was to the Shire, it was in my mind that is the way also to you halls.'
'Call them so, if you will,' said Thorin. 'They are only poor lodgings in exile. But you would be welcome there, if you would come. For they say that you are wise and know more than any other of what goes on in the world; and I have much on my mind and would be glad of your counsel.'
'I will come,' said Gandalf; 'for I guess that we share one trouble at least. The Dragon of Erebor is on my mind, and I do not think that he will be forgotten by the grandson of Thrór.
And a little later in the same passage
'I grieved at the fall of Thorin,' said Gandalf; 'and now we hear that Dáin has fallen, fighting in Dale again, even while we fought here, I should call that a heavy loss, if it was not a wonder rather that in his great age he could still wield his axe as mightily as they say that he did, standing over the body of King Brand before the Gate of Erebor until the darkness fell.
'Yet things might have gone far otherwise and far worse. When you think of the great Battle of the Pelennor, do not forget the battles in Dale and the valour of Durin's Folk. think of what might have been. Dragonfire and savage swords in Eriador, night in Rivendell. There might be no Queen in Gondor. We might now hope to return from the victory here only to ruin and ash. But that has been averted – because I met Thorin Oakenshield one evening on the edge of spring in Bree. A chance-meeting, as we say in Middle-earth.
So although the exact wording of the conversations of Gandalf and Thorin are not recorded in the the final version, there is an implied link directly to the quote given by Anc. Therefore not only Fascinating reading for us but a valid question to ponder on also. :)

[Barliman Butterbur]

How certain are you that "it never happened!". The meeting itself most certainly did happen and was included in Tolkien's final version in the Appendices....

In that case, I stand before you head bowed, hat-in-hand: cowed, crestfallen, sheepish, shamefaced, chagrined, abashed, abased, hubris-punctured, justly, properly and rightly corrected, disciplined, chastised, and set straight! :o :eek:

(To make matters worse [or, in my own defense], I did read these passages long ago and forgot about them. The last similar passages I read were from Lost Tales, which weren't included.)

Barley

[Ancalagon]

That'll teach you Barley:D

[Barliman Butterbur]

That'll teach you Barley:D

That's right, kick a poor sod when 'e's down!;)

Barley

[Arvedui]

From discussing who weaves the fate of the Ring, we are closing on discussing who weaves the fate of the inhabitants of Arda. Quite an interesting question. And perhaps the right one. For is not the fate of the Ring closely interlocked with the fate of Arda?

And then I start to wonder if there really is something such as totaly free-will. If Eru wanted Arda to be a place where good eventually will prevail, then absolute free-will is not possible. This must be so because Eru will not allow evil to prevail, and therefore he must at times interact. Not directly, but through various characters. So Fëanor was no 'mistake.' He came into being because it was crucial for the development of Arda. Melkor was no accident, but an offspring from the darker corners in Eru's mind. That the Istari were sent into Middle-earth was something that 'had to' happen. And the coming of Hobbits was necessarry, just like it was bound to happen that Sauron would be cast down eventually.

So the fate of everything that exists in Arda (and outside) is weaved by Eru, but most of the times we don't notice it until afterwards.

[Osric]

This Free Will vs Predetermined Destiny is a central topic to getting to grips with Tolkien's concept. And it makes an essential companion topic to the one of Foresight -- in defining what is foreseeable. Sometimes I think he wrote it all to express his own monotheistic Catholic beliefs, and sometimes I suspect he reasoned out the implications after the story had taken over and started writing itself.
Forgive me if I missed it, but did anyone yet supply the quote which says that Men, presumably including Hobbits, specifically have freedom from the dictates of the Ainulindalë 'which is as Fate to all others' (loosely, from memory, as I'm between bookshelves right now).

That sounds like it specifically states that the Elves and Dwarves (and even the Valar) lack Free Will, but I still cannot see this as being strictly the case.

I view Ainulindalë as painting the predetermined unfolding of history in broad strokes: "Eventually there will be a big fight and the personification of evil for the Age will be incapacitated in some fashion", "There will be a Fall of Men, but the survivors will carry on, much chastened and improved by the experience" etc.

It seems to matter to Eru only that how these victories come about -- or perhaps that they come about through good and noble deeds that stand as a moral lesson to the survivors. (Perhaps he wouldn't have accepted an outcome such as Saruman and Boromir sought, by using Sauron's own weapon to defeat him; or perhaps that wouldn't have been the end of the Third Age after all...)

I have the impression that this is where he lets Free Will loose, so that the workings of the better nature of the Children of Eru come out -- whether Eru stands as an idly curious megabeing-spectator or looking to let the immortal fëar that return to him, come back with a new and deeply moral personal experience.
The only stipulation seems to be that it will all come out well in the end, and if that needs a little divine hand in the right direction here and there, he's prepared to do whatever is necessary. (Of course this has to be as subtle as possible, because if the actors see the deus ex machina there is the danger of failing to strive earnestly any more. I think the Wisdom and continued faith of Elrond and Gandalf, even after they have gained an inkling of Eru's involvement is particularly valiant.)

In short, everyone has Free Will as to how they go about things, but the Valar -- and if they miss a trick, Eru himself -- may intervene in the smallest way possible, acting as a safety net only if things are about to go seriously wrong otherwise.

As far as weaving the fate of the Ruling Ring goes, this is obviously the focal point of the end of the Third Age, and therefore the centre of attention. Not only are the Children about to fail unaided, the emissaries of the Valar are down to 20% uncorrupted (then 0%, then 20% again!), the Valar don't do quite enough at quite the right time(s), and Eru himself has to step in as well.



Who's agreeing, or who can point out problems with this view? :)
Cheers,
--Os.

Hmm. I've just noticed how these -- indeed the endings of each of the three known Ages of Arda -- correspond with the Old Norse concept of life after Ragnarök...! :cool: