TTF-Debate Tournament: Round 2. HOW TO PROCEED? [Archive]

Wonko The Sane

06-06-2003, 12:07 AM

Although you will need to contact the debate coordinator for a full explanation a discussion is underway in regards to whether or not the topic will be changed.

Sincere sentiments and concerns from both sides have been expressed against the topic of this debate.
And indeed it has been reported from a representative of the Tolkienologists that they would rather win at a more ambiguous debate than at one so decidedly one-sided.
Regretfully these sentiments could not be expressed at the time of the topic announcement for a multitude of reasons.
One being that the Periaur had to wait for the Tolkienologists to decide their stance, and another being that once the Periaur knew which side they'd take they needed time to research that side.
It was only after the research was done, and after extensive conversation with selected members on both sides of the debate that such an appeal was placed, by the Periaur, in order to discuss the changing of the topic.
At this point nothing has been decided, but it has been expressed that this topic is unfair, from many different points of view.
And members of the Tolkienologists as well as the Periaur have agreed.
Representatives of the Periaur team have expressed discontentment with a topic that leaves very little room for argument, and very little alternative explanation, and they would rather have a topic that they can fairly debate on.
Representatives of the Tolkienologist team have expressed concern that the topic is too easy to argue on their side, and that they would rather win in a fair debate of a more ambiguous topic, than one with such a decided favor in the direction of one team over another.

Mrs. Maggott

06-06-2003, 12:13 AM

Well, that may be the case, but all I can say is this: they should have thought of that before the debate began. And, if it is in fact changed, those who considered it "too easy" have my blessing to argue the new debate because I will be too busy to do so making up for all the time I wasted posting in this one.

Lhunithiliel

06-06-2003, 12:22 AM

I understand the situation but, I wish to POINT OUT that if there was or IS a discussion on this matter it MUST have been OPENLY announced to the Guild of Tolkienology!!!!

I am the Guild Master of this Guild and I have seen NOT ONE post in ANY proper place to announce to us about some sort of discussion on changing the topic of the debate!!!

I beg your pardon, but if some member of the Guild has had some MSN or PM-private conversation with the Periaur and has expressed some opinions, this was NOT the OFFICIAL opinion on part of the Guild. Otherwise, I would have known about it and we would have not posted our arguments.

Therefore, I firmly ask for explanations!!!

And excuse me, but I feel as treated unfairly, and I take it personally! :(

I would also very strongly ask to learn the name of the GoT - member who has had discussions wit your Guild on this matter!

And I'd ask him/her to give to me some explanations too!!

Mrs. Maggott

06-06-2003, 12:30 AM

I have no idea. I merely read Wonko's post on the debate thread itself and she made mention of the fact that some of our Guild members did not believe that the premise was challenging enough. I have no problem with that, but if I remember, Aule was around on this thread rousting all of us saying that their Guild had already developed arguments on both sides of the topic and what was keeping us from posting? That's when I dropped everything, aggravated my carpel tunnel syndrome and drew up my post. Now apparently, it wasn't "challenging enough" for our side and unfair for theirs. Surely after they did arguments for both sides they should have figured that one out before the debate began and complained about the topic!

Oh, and I agree with you. I haven't heard any of our side say that they thought the topic was too easy. So I don't know who or if or what. I only know that a hellovalotov time and effort went into my post including reformatting for the quotes and I, for one, am not very happy to think it was all for nothing!

Wonko The Sane

06-06-2003, 12:31 AM

Again here is the catch: Where in most debates the "home" team posts which side they intend to take after the topic is announced and BEFORE the first post is made, that is not the case here.
Which side the opposing team would take was not announced prior to the first post. Once the Periaur learned what side they would take the debate had already begun.
Although the Periaur could have challenged the topic before sides were even chosen, they instead chose to investigate their side once they knew it to determine whether or not the topic was, in fact, unfair as they previously surmised.
Once they knew the topic, and did their research it was only then that their fears were confirmed.
And this has lead to the current state of affairs.

I apologise for any inconvienience and hope this can be resolved swiftly and painlessly for all involved.

Thank you.

In the meantime I request that this debate be put on hold while this issue is discussed by the debate coordinators.

Mrs. Maggott

06-06-2003, 12:33 AM

Well, as for me, it will be painless. I have posted. After that, whomever wishes to post may do so, but I shall not post again.

Lhunithiliel

06-06-2003, 12:38 AM

I am sorry, but please, this situation is to be understood and settled out correctly and justly.

Therefore I appeal it to the Council of 9 and to the Administrative body for the Debate Tournament.

Unfortunately, some of the members of these two bodies are participants in this argument so this should be also taken into consideration!

Meanwhile, I AGAIN ask for NAMES!!!

Ancalagon

06-06-2003, 12:48 AM

Originally posted by Wonko The Sane
Again here is the catch: Where in most debates the "home" team posts which side they intend to take after the topic is announced and BEFORE the first post is made, that is not the case here.
Which side the opposing team would take was not announced prior to the first post. Once the Periaur learned what side they would take the debate had already begun.
Although the Periaur could have challenged the topic before sides were even chosen, they instead chose to investigate their side once they knew it to determine whether or not the topic was, in fact, unfair as they previously surmised.

As an independent (and non-partisan) observer to these events I am rather surprised at the late request to change the topic and even more surprised by the concerns raised that no warning was given of the side the Tolkienologists wished to take. If it is the home sides choice, then they can state their position and go straight into whatever defence for their position they wish to mount.

Also, I am wondering why no effort was made to query the question in the first place, even before the debate began? Was this because the Periaur were hoping the Tolkienologists might choose differently, therefore offering the Periaur the stronger side from which to debate? If this is the case, then surely you cannot cry foul after the positions have been stated if you knew in advance which side might be a more reasonable position to defend? Somehow the reasoning you have stated Wonko for not questioning it earlier does not seem entirely convincing.

I wonder if the C9 should take a role in resolving this?

Mrs. Maggott

06-06-2003, 01:10 AM

On June 2nd, Aule posted the following in our debate discussion thread:

*taps foot, and looks at watch impatiently*

C'mon you slow-coaches, the Periaur have already prepared arguements to both sides of the arguement in preperation for your opening post.
We're waiting...

Forgive me if this does not appear as if there were problems with the topic with the Periaur before the debate opened. Indeed, it was this post that caused me to stop working and create my post since our Guild Mistress, Lhun, had asked me to post first. Needless to say, a lot of time and work went into it and it seems rather inexplicable to me why we are having this conversation at this time. The debate was supposed to start Sunday, but the thread wasn't opened until Monday or Tuesday (I do not remember which, but the date it was opened, I posted albeit late in the day. It is now Thursday. Something is definitely wrong here. There was more than enough time for anyone to object to the premise; the debate didn't even start on the due date.

I will leave this matter in the hands of the Committee (whoever that is), but I cannot say as I am happy with events as they are even if the premise stays since it is obvious that the debate is no longer going to be pursued enthusiastically by both sides - and it's a shame.

Maedhros

06-06-2003, 01:23 AM

I have to say that I'm dissapointed in this. I'm the person who approves the topics, and when Arverdui approached me with the Topic, I thought that it was interesting.
If one of the parties had a trouble with the topic, it should have been stated when the topic was posted, not after several posts were made.
Look at this post:
Originally posted by Aulë
C'mon you slow-coaches, the Periaur have already prepared arguements to both sides of the arguement in preperation for your opening post.
What is the problem then?
I have to say that I'm very dissapointed, the way that the Periaur debated in the last debate was brilliant and then they do this after several posts were made.
It's not an honorable thing to do. I don't know what Foat or Aulë thinks but for me it would be too late to change.
I have debated many times before, and this is the first time that I see such a tactic used.

Arvedui

06-06-2003, 07:00 AM

I am a bit taken by surprise, and also a tad disappointed (understatement!!!!!!)
The first notion of this that turns up, comes from the Guild of Tolkienology, 3 days, 7 hours and 43 minutes after the topic was posted, and Aulë posted his 'hurry-up' post a little while after that.

I have not participated in that many debates, but the times I have been arguing the stance I did not personally believe in, have been more than actually arguing my belief.

I know from personal experience that it is possible to make good arguments for both sides, which is also why I proposed this topic.

Until I am told otherwise by someone, this debate continues until 06-11-2003 at 14:00 PM, at which time the debate closes, and the judging start. There is still time to search, find new ideas, and argue.

Lhunithiliel

06-06-2003, 08:37 AM

I thank Maedhros and Arvedui for taking the argument into consideration!
To tell you the truth, I personally don't care whether the topic is changed or not!!! I, just as well as the others from our team, will be quite satisfied with any other topic.
I have to admit that when I read the topic I was not too sure what side to chose and even when we discussed the matter with the other members of the team, I spent two days thinking what arguments I could provide... But this is it! There are rules, even though this is a game, and rules should be followed!

What gets at my nerves is this:
iLhunithiliel:Hey...when is the "main squad" coming out?
Commom! Put some "fire" into the debate! :p :D
06.05.2003; 10:17 PM
In answer:
Aule: The Periaur are currently appealing to Arvedui that the topic be changed.
We think it's amazingly unfair, and Anamatar has said that the Tolkienologists would also prefer a more ambigious topic.

I know that you guys have been having fun stating the obvious, but we basically have NOTHING to say in response.
06-05-2003 10:27 PM
And after I had announced this to our Guild and I had posted a short request here addressed to the Host as to give some explanations whether the situation IS this, came the following:
Wonko :
Although you will need to contact the debate coordinator for a full explanation a discussion is underway in regards to whether or not the topic will be changed.
A lie ? A misunderstanding?

Sincere sentiments and concerns from both sides have been expressed against the topic of this debate.
And indeed it has been reported from a representative of the Tolkienologists that they would rather win at a more ambiguous debate than at one so decidedly one-sided.
Regretfully these sentiments could not be expressed at the time of the topic announcement for a multitude of reasons.
I just can't tell you how mad I am to have read this!!! :mad:
You, guys, are either accusing Anamatar for having betrayed his Guild, leading some sort of negotiations behind my and our backs! ? ! :eek: And this is strange to me because Anamatar and I had exchanged opinions and we both had admitted that the topic is difficult. But neither I, nor anyone else had come up with some OFFICIAL statement saying sth. of the things that you claim we had said!!!!! And bothe of us had already posted arguments!

OR...
You're just looking for some excuses:eek: involving the name of Anamatar!

For me THIS IS THE REAL PROBLEM!!!

Niniel

06-06-2003, 08:48 AM

So far I have been the only member of the Periaur to post in the debate; and I found it very hard because the answer to the question was so obvious. In fact I wholeheartedly agree with the Tolkienologists that Éwoyn was right to go to war, but since they chose to defend that, we (the Periaur, at that moment represented by me) had to defend the other side. It's very hard to defend a point of view that you don't agree with, but I have tried the best I could.
Before the debate started, I had my doubts about the subject, because I was afraid it wouldn't give a fair debate; but I didn't know it was allowed to change the subject after it was announced, so I said nothing about it. I think now it's too late to change the subject; if we had wanted to do that the whole team of the Periaur should have protested before the debate started.
So I think there is nothing else to do but to continue the debate; but since I have used up almost all my arguments I would like some support from my fellow Periaur!

Aulë

06-06-2003, 09:22 AM

Once again...Australian sarcasm has failed to register with others...

Originally posted by Aulë
C'mon you slow-coaches, the Periaur have already prepared arguements to both sides of the arguement in preperation for your opening post.
Do you honestly think that we'd do that? The members of the Periaur don't have enough spare time as it is, and there's no way that we'd have been able to do that.
I was just spurring you guys on so that we could discover which stance we would be taking.
Only then could we start doing some research into the topic.
In the 40 hours between the Tolkinologist's opening post and our appeal, we have been browsing through HoME, LotR, UT and Letters; searching for something that put Eowyn's decision in a reasonable amount of doubt.
We thought that there would surely be something out there that could support our stance.
Originally posted by Maedhros
If one of the parties had a trouble with the topic, it should have been stated when the topic was posted, not after several posts were made.
As Arvedui and Maedhros are both knowlegable in Tolkien-lore, we were quite confident that there must have been something written by Tolkien that made the topic a contentious issue.
Considering that 2 of the people in our team are busy with exams, and 1 hadn't been online since the topic appeared, we can't have been expected to do all this within a few hours.
To read through all the relevant material is not a 2 hour job, let alone a day's job. We therefore couldn't make an appeal unti lwe at least knew for sure that there was nothing out there.

Originally posted by Lhun
You, guys, are either accusing Anamatar for having betrayed his Guild, leading some sort of negotiations behind my and our backs! ? ! And this is strange to me because Anamatar and I had exchanged opinions and we both had admitted that the topic is difficult. But neither I, nor anyone else had come up with some OFFICIAL statement saying sth. of the things that you claim we had said!!!!! And bothe of us had already posted arguments!
Anamatar spoke to me in an MSN conversation, and told me that the Tolkienologist's team did not like the topic, and would prefer to debate on a more ambigious topic.

Originally posted by Ancalagon
I wonder if the C9 should take a role in resolving this?
Considering that 4 of the C9 are in this debate (Wonko the Sane, Mrs. Maggott, Anamatar and myself) and 1 is a Guildmaster for the Periaur (Elbereth), I would feel that the decisions could be rather biased.

Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
I only know that a hellovalotov time and effort went into my post including reformatting for the quotes and I, for one, am not very happy to think it was all for nothing!
Well I know that you've been enjoying stating the obvious, but try and think about the Periaur's POV. All we can do is nit-pick at any minor mistakes that you made (as Niniel did).

Ancalagon

06-06-2003, 09:40 AM

So, are you saying that if the Tolkienologists had chosen differently, you would still have argued for a change in the debate question because it left you with too easy a position ie. That Eowyn was Right to take the course of action she chose?

Sorry, I had not realised this earlier and now know your intentions were honourable;)

*note* Irish Sarcasm slowly registering!

Aulë

06-06-2003, 09:50 AM

All these incompatable versions of sarcasms....It's just begging for trouble ;)

So, are you saying that if the Tolkienologists had chosen differently, you would still have argued for a change in the debate question because it left you with too easy a position ie. That Eowyn was Right to take the course of action she chose?

If that were the case, the Periaur would have debated just as the Tolkienologists have done (Although posting our stance sooner). We wouldn't have said that it was too easy (Considering that every one of the Periaur's debates have not been easy: Saying that Sauron was more powerful than Melkor; Saying that Elessar's edict to protect the Shire was wrong; Saying that the White Council's decision was wrong; And now, saying that Eowyn was wrong in riding to Gondor).
It would have been up to the Tolkienologists to appeal.

Ancalagon

06-06-2003, 09:54 AM

I'm sorry Aule, I had not realised you were getting the short end of the stick in all the debates you have participated in:P

From the questions you have posted, I have already constructed solid and viable defences in my mind, and I haven't even begun to study them. Anyway, if it was so hard, how did the Periaur manage to win their first debate?

Aulë

06-06-2003, 10:04 AM

For the Periaur vs. OiE last year-
One word: Maedhros :D
Without him, we would have lost that debate.

For the Elessar's edict-
Luck
Don't know how we won that one

For the 1st Round-
There was a way around that, and it was half a contentious topic.
And Snaga did exeptionally well

Lhunithiliel

06-06-2003, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by Aulë
Anamatar spoke to me in an MSN conversation, and told me that the Tolkienologist's team did not like the topic, and would prefer to debate on a more ambigious topic.
It's all right but this is NOT any OFFICIAL statement on our part!
How can you then take up such steps and not inform us?
And as I see, neither Maedhros, nor Arvedui were aware of all this!

Still I would like to say that I feelpersonally hurt and affected by your attitude!
I don't give a damn about the topic!!
The thing that matters is YOUR ATTITUDE!!!
And you should be fair enough as to not hide behind some silly excuses! All you needed was to have said all much earlier and OPENLY!!! I hate such "games in the dark corners"!
Not fair and not honest!!!

Arvedui

06-06-2003, 11:31 AM

I think this task is appointed for you Frodo; and that if you do not find a way, no one will.

'I wish it need not have happened in my time,' said Frodo.
'So do I,' said Gandalf, 'and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.

It is now more than 24 hours since the last post, on topic.

Aulë

06-06-2003, 12:02 PM

Lhun: Anamatar said that the whole Tolkienologists' team was in agreeance that they didn't like the topic.

And how were we suppost to appeal earlier? Did you not read my reasons?:rolleyes:

Lhunithiliel

06-06-2003, 12:20 PM

Originally posted by Arvedui
It is now more than 24 hours since the last post, on topic.
I understand what you mena, Honourable Host! :)
But we are waiting for some arguments from our opponents in order to continue debating.

And Aule, I HAVE read your reasons and I do NOT find them reasonable or/ and satisfactory!
A private conversation does NOT mean an official statement!
A lot of things can be said on MSN in private conversations! So what?! Is the debate going on MSN?

And in the future, if and when you have some questions or/and claims and/or information to the Guild of Tolkienology, the first person you should inform is ME! And if you wish, our thread "Happenings in the Guild" will be at your disposal to do announcements to all our members.

You have put me and the whole Guild in an embarrasing situation TWICE!!!
First - about the problem with voting and now - this!
Is it the right way?
Do you think so?

Niniel

06-06-2003, 01:25 PM

I'm really sorry to see that this debate has turned into a fight; I hope it can be solved an in more friendly way. Anyway, I tried to put in my thoughts on both the subject and the discussion about the question; I won't be able to say any more about it until Monday cause I'll be away for a few days. I hope that when I return the whole problem will be solved; and guys, please be nice to each other while I'm gone! ;)

Arvedui

06-06-2003, 01:31 PM

You know, Niniel is right.
This thread is for the debate! No there is a bunch of posts that have nothing to do with the debate itself.
I propose that a separate thread is opened either at the Periaurs, or on this Guild, and that this thread is cleaned out, so that the bickering does not destroy the debate in topic.

Like it or not, the topic stays!
So the options are to surrender, or to keep debating.

I, at least, will not consider which is the right or wrong stance when judging, but look at your arguments.....

Mrs. Maggott

06-06-2003, 01:54 PM

Forgive me for posting on the debate thread, but it would be hard at this point to "shift" the dispute (for that is what this is) to some other venue.

Anamatar spoke to me in an MSN conversation, and told me that the Tolkienologist's team did not like the topic, and would prefer to debate on a more ambigious topic. - Aule

Forgive me, but absolutely no one contacted me about the topic but Lhun who had asked me to post first. At that time we discussed which side of the topic as the hosting Guild we wished to defend. Certainly no one came to me - one of the debate team - and decried the topic as too easy or anything else. I am sure, had that person done so, I would have mentioned same to Lhun when she pm'd me asking me to post first.

As for the complaint about my "posting late", might I remind all and sundry that the debate thread itself was not put up on Sunday and no one informed me (the person to post first) what the bloody topic was, so I could hardly be in a position to post "early" in any event. Furthermore, the delay in the posting certainly gave all those people who had a problem with the topic on whichever side, to come forward before the beginning of the debate and say that they wanted it changed! It would have been annoying to have that happen after I had begun to pull together my post, but I would merely have asked for more time to consider whatever new topic was put forth.

And finally, do I sense a certain amount of criticism of my post? Too long? Too comprehensive? Too whatever? I'm sorry if it does not meet the standards of Guild debates (this was my first one), but it was an attempt to be a thorough presentation of our side of the topic. There were counter arguments (some were made) and there were arguments which I did not develop although I may have touched on them in passing. But I must say, this is the first time I have ever seen either side of a debate annoyed by a post that was thorough, well documented and, at least I thought, well argued. Had I known you wanted schlock work, I could have saved myself hours of effort and posted immediately the thread was opened. Who knows? Had I done so, we might not be having this debate now.

Maedhros

06-06-2003, 03:32 PM

If the Guild of Tolkienology would like to change the Topic and make a new debate then I'm ok with that.

Lhunithiliel

06-06-2003, 04:22 PM

No! I am sorry!

Ithrynluin

06-06-2003, 05:26 PM

This thread consists of posts made in the debate thread. Continue your discussion here please.

Eriol

06-06-2003, 07:15 PM

Good move ithrynluin.

I think that any change in the rules needs the acquiescence of all Guilds in the Tournament, not only the two involved. In this particular case, Lhunithiliel has stated the Tolkienologist position.

This reasoning also applies to the "poll vote - 5 judges" problem, by the way. I don't feel comfortable with rules changing at the whim of a poll. Even though in this case I am sure (or rather, I hope!) that the 5 judges suggestion will be accepted by all, an official statement from each Guild would be nice.

(Is it only me that sees irony in having a poll to decide whether polls should count as votes? A poll should be used to inform the decision, to be sure, but to make the decision itself?)

The reason why all Guilds must agree is, of course, that one change in the rules involves everyone.

Lhunithiliel

06-06-2003, 07:21 PM

Ha! I have opened a new thread?!?????? :eek:
How come I don't know about it? ;) :D

Anyway, good move Ithy!

Ithrynluin

06-06-2003, 07:50 PM

Originally posted by Eriol
(Is it only me that sees irony in having a poll to decide whether polls should count as votes? A poll should be used to inform the decision, to be sure, but to make the decision itself?)

Yes, I noticed that even while making the poll. I pretended not to notice the irony though.

Aulë

06-06-2003, 08:41 PM

Actually, the poll was just used to give me a view on what the members wanted.
As the organiser, I still had the final say (And since the overwhelming majority wanted 5 judges, I concurred)

Eriol

06-06-2003, 08:50 PM

Where in the rules is stated that the organizer has the final say?

:D

(I've never found the actual rules, only a general discussion. Is there any place in which we can easily access them?)

Now, Aulë, it is clear that your "final say" does not include changing the rules without the assent of the participants. Or at least it is clear to me... whatever the rules say about it.

The overwhelming poll is one thing; assent from each Guild is quite different. I hope you can get this assent if you want, in that particular case -- but while there is no assent from every Guild I still can't see how the rules are said to be changed.

Aulë

06-06-2003, 08:55 PM

Well considering that the Tournament was MY idea, and I have organised EVERYTHING, I believe that I can change the rules as I see fit.
But I want the Tournement to be run as well as possible, and to do that, I shall only change the rules if the majority want them changed.

Anyway, FoolOfATook shall be becoming the organiser in the next week, as I shall be leaving for a month or two.

Idril

06-06-2003, 08:59 PM

I don't think any rules should be changed, once the tournament has started. This is unfair for all participants involved. Any faults in the system should be noted and the changes can be implemented for the next tournament.

Well considering that the Tournament was MY idea, and I have organised EVERYTHING, I believe that I can change the rules as I see fit.
But I want the Tournement to be run as well as possible, and to do that, I shall only change the rules if the majority want them changed.

The problem occurs when you are also taking part in the tournament - you leave yourself open to possible claims that you are not being impartial.

Eriol

06-06-2003, 09:01 PM

And you are doing a terrific job, Aulë! Don't get upset with the hassles -- hassles happen with everything we attempt.

But changing the rules of a tournament after all participants have agreed to them (i.e. after the first round) is a very serious matter. No single person has this power. And "majority" is not really enough; any single Guild may feel wronged and he will have a right to hold the others to the originally agreed rules. It is as if we could change how much a win is worth in soccer, or scoring points for corner shots, after the first round begins. It simply can't be done without unanimity.

That's common sense, as I see it. I never heard of any tournament that functioned otherwise.

Nóm

06-06-2003, 09:07 PM

So what if a GoT member does not like the topic? That in itself is by no stretch grounds to change the topic. Neither is it grounds because a lot of the members dislike it.

This is because dislike for a topic is not the same as thinking that a topic is bad.

In official debates, you are not always going to like the topic.

So, the opinions you have posted of GoT, in my opinion, are not justification for changing the topic.

As I said earlier in another thread, it is my opinion that the Periaur acted too late in this apeal.

As Ancalagon has implied... there are more arguements you guys might come up with.

Also, Periaur is a winning team. I think you guys can make the best of it. I argued that Feanor was motivated by wanting to give Fingolfin's bunch a chance for redemption, in burning the ships. It was fun!

Anamatar IV

06-07-2003, 01:19 AM

Anamatar said that the whole Tolkienologists' team was in agreeance that they didn't like the topic.

Yes, at the start of the debate I did say I wished for a more ambigious topic to Lhun to which I think she replied something to the extent of yes (I deleted my inbox recently:() but oh well.

Again I don't remember exactly and can't check but it didn't seem like it would have been a preferred topic...

But as I have said, I think it's too late to restart the debate.

Lhunithiliel

06-07-2003, 06:24 AM

Sure, Anamatar! :)
We did exchange PM-s and we both agreed that the topic was quite difficult!
To tell you the truth, I was quite worried at first what arguments could be provided "pro", because in a way I do "accuse" her for her actions.... :p

But......

Tic....toc...tic....toc...runs the clock! :D

Arvedui

06-07-2003, 08:34 AM

This was written by Aulë in another thread, answering if it was OK to put forth our own topics:
Yes, you can come up with your own topics. But you have to PM them to Maedhros first so he can judge whether they are worthy for the Tournament.
Done! And as Meadhros have already statet, he thought it was good, so he go ahead.

And this is the same Aulë in the Guild of Elves:
Well you can blame Maedhros for the topic.
And that's just the hand that you've been dealt: you can't change it.

Do I need to say anymore?

Same Aulë, two posts later:
I thought that you guys would at least try and participate in the Tournament. This Guild is the only Guild not to do anything in the Tournement, and I'm disappointed in all of you.
But at this time he was hosting a debate, not participating.

If you suspect me of making this up, you can find the thread here: (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11723)

Now, for the last time:

All the rules set by Aulë, have been met (I have even got us a fifth, neutral judge). The thread was opened a little later than supposed to, but I also have a life.... And in any case, the topic was posted before most of the others, so shut up abouth that.:)
The debate lasts for seven days from the first post, or almost. I have set the ending time a little different, so as to make it run smoother for me, as I live in Europe, and I have a schedule to make, after the judging is done.

Sure, you can tire yourselves out by complaining about the topic, but that won't help one bit. Maedhros and I agree: It stays!

And that's the final word.:mad: ;) :D

Arvedui

06-07-2003, 08:40 AM

Just one more thing I should have mentioned first:

Thanks, ithrynluin, for splitting the thread.

Lhunithiliel

06-07-2003, 11:11 AM

Arvedui, please, you do not think that you are being accused to have chosen a bad topic?!?! :eek:
Because this is NOT the case.... at least not on our part!

Besides, I keep receiving arguments and opinions by people non-participating in the debate - arguments against the "obvious" side and some of them ARE GOOD!!!!! REALLY GOOD!

The point is that the topic CAN be discussable.

Meanwhile........

Tic......toc......tic.....toc...... :p

Arvedui

06-07-2003, 11:25 AM

My conciense does not bother me one bit, when it comes to the topic given.

My point was that someone here is "speaking with two tongues," which I find rather disgusting.
That this also is the same person that stated that as long as he started the idea of the Tournament, and also organized it etc, he could have the right to change the rules as he saw fit.

I rest my case...

Gil-Galad

06-08-2003, 12:52 AM

Originally posted by Nóm

As I said earlier in another thread, it is my opinion that the Periaur acted too late in this apeal.

As Ancalagon has implied... there are more arguements you guys might come up with.

I agree with you Nym.And I want to ask something.Why neither me,nor Lhun was pm-ed on time about the problem?She,as the Guildmaster,and I as a Deputy Guildmaster on intra and inter activities should have been informed on time.Arvedui,you should have done that earlier,Lhun was right.And something else.For God sake,can't we debate once without any problem.After the first round we had problems with the way of judging and now that.........:mad:

And what we are going to do now with this round?

Ithrynluin

06-08-2003, 12:53 AM

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
For God sake,can't we debate once without any problem.After the first round we had problems with the way of judging and now that.........:mad:

Hopefully these two disputes will set some standards for future debates. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
And what we are going to do now with this round?

It's up to the Periaur. Obviously - nothing.

Gil-Galad

06-08-2003, 12:58 AM

Originally posted by ithrynluin
Hopefully these two disputes will set some standards for future debates. :rolleyes:

It's up to the Periaur. Obviously - nothing.
I hope so.But what can Periaur do?What opportunities do they have?Because "nothing" can't be a satisfying answer.:)

Eriol

06-08-2003, 01:00 AM

Originally posted by ithrynluin
Hopefully these two disputes will set some standards for future debates. :rolleyes:

Yes... it is only natural that the first time a thing of this magnitude is attempted, some problems arise. The most important thing is to adjust the Conditions of Contest for the next Tournament.

I actually think that the amount of problems was minimal for a first attempt. It is just our luck, GG, that the two main hurdles (and so far as I know the only hurdles) happened in debates involving our Guild. The Tournament is going as smoothly as could be expected, as I see it.

We may still have a problem-free debate, don't lose hope :D.

Gil-Galad

06-08-2003, 02:13 AM

Originally posted by Eriol

We may still have a problem-free debate, don't lose hope :D.
I hope so.I hope that everything will be ok,cause everything's good when it finishes good.When there are not many problems everyone can enjoy the debate and that is the purpose of everything-to enjoy ourselves.

Lhunithiliel

06-08-2003, 07:21 AM

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
I agree with you Nym.And I want to ask something.Why neither me,nor Lhun was pm-ed on time about the problem?She,as the Guildmaster,and I as a Deputy Guildmaster on intra and inter activities should have been informed on time.Arvedui,you should have done that earlier,Lhun was right.And something else.For God sake,can't we debate once without any problem.After the first round we had problems with the way of judging and now that.........:mad:

And what we are going to do now with this round?
Arvedui was surprised as much as we were, G-G! :)
So, don't blame it on him!

...G-G, remember our band "Ahat" and their wonderful piece - "The black sheep" ?!? That's what's perhaps the destiny of the GoT in this tournament ;) :D :p :D :D