After the End?

[Beleg]

HOME#5

But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Turin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar

So what do you think will happen to Men on the "doom's day"?
What is the ultimate fate of men?

:confused:

[YayGollum]

Sounds like a bunch of crazy supposition type thingses are being asked for. oh well. Let me see here. What happens to humans when Eru decides to end his crazy experiment? I'd say something like ---> Everyone gets to hang out with him and have all kinds of fun. Maybe they'll come up with another tune for him. Start all over again, but with the other races helping out this time.

[Celebthôl]

When they do start over (as its quit inevitable), will Men still die and never see the Elves again? That seems...wrong, as they were meant to be together (if you see what i mean)...it doesnt seem right that they should be split up....

[YayGollum]

Why do you think it's inevitable for them to start all over again? I didn't know that. oh well. Anyways, am I crazy for thinking that when the Eru guy decides to end his little experiment, everyone would just have some spirit hanging out with him all the time? There wouldn't be an earth anymore.

[Celebthôl]

HAHAH!!! BOO YAH!! thats it, im with you freeky Gollum guy, sounds pretty much like then end result to me :D

[Niniel]

I suppose it all starts over again; just as in Ragnarok. But I don't think JRRT had any clear idea of what would happen, or at least chose not to tell us.

[Helcaraxë]

I can resolve this now. In the silmarillion, it clearly states that there WILL be a new Music of the Ainur and that men will participate. Of the fate of the elves, it is unclear. Here's the first quote.

"Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Iluvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the children of Iluvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Iluvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Iluvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased."

Here's the second:

"Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Iluvatar has not revealed what purposes he has for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it."

[Helcaraxë]

Anyway, what I'm saying is that all texts support the notion of a second Music. Plus, Eru would never permit everything to cease to exist.

[YayGollum]

Makes sense to me. Sounds like there'll just be a nice little paradise place that everyone is equal and gets to have all kinds of fun. What's more interesting to me is ---> What about the evil types? Are they just destroyed in every way, or do they have some hellish type place to hang out in for forever? I know that Mel was sent to that Void place. Would he have to stay there for forever? I have no idea.

[Helcaraxë]

Well, actually, Melkor would be dead. He's slain by Turin wielding Gurthang. And it says that "the themes of Iluvatar shall be played aright...," which leaves me with the impression that there will be no evil in the new world, so to speak.

[Elendil3119]

Originally posted by Morgoth"sBane
Well, actually, Melkor would be dead. He's slain by Turin wielding Gurthang.
Umm, I never read about that anywhere. :confused:

[Lantarion]

Pssst. In HoME.. ;)

[Niniel]

Check this (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=4971) .

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
HOME#5



So what do you think will happen to Men on the "doom's day"?
What is the ultimate fate of men?

:confused:
Beleg, this quote you provide is from the earlier mythology. It changed many times since then.
1. Men are supposed to create the Second Music of the Ainur (implying with the Ainur that never descended in Arda :confused: ), while the Valar and the Elves have unknown fate.
2. Men and Valar join and make the Second Music of the Ainur, while still the Elves have unknown fate
3. The later conception of the "Myths Transformed" where nothing is written explicitely, but the too many cosmological changes affect this also and we can no longer accept it as definite.

If you will accept the dramatic changes of Myths Transformed, or not this is everyone's choice. But I tend to accept this fate of Men (#2) as a myth which survived rather than an actual prophecy.

[Beleg]

Thanks Morgoth's Bane and gate7ole for the help.

[YayGollum]

Got it. I didn't know that craziness about mel. What about all of the other evil types? They're gotten rid of, too? I have no idea. Who gets to decide who was evil?

[Helcaraxë]

Well, I assume Iluvatar would be the judge of that. Perhaps there is evil inherent in a perfect world, or perhaps everyone evil will spontaneously convert to the light. Who knows. Tolkien is never clear about that aspect of the "After the End" subject (although you'd think he would be, considering how clear he was about the other, more concrete aspects of ambar-metta. (Qu. for "World's End). i.e., second music.

[HelplessModAddi]

If you pay close attention, the Dagor Dagorath and the Second Music are never identified with each other. It stands to reason that first the world will end for Elves, and then, much later, the world will end for Men. It does fit with the theme of separate fates for the kindreds.

My take is that when Men go extinct, they and the Valar will initiate the Second Music, creating hundreds of new worlds, into which the Elves will expand and enrich. My view of paradise is a constant, never-ending "discovery" of new and wonderful things.

[Beleg]

My take is that when Men go extinct, they and the Valar will initiate the Second Music

I agree with this part.

creating hundreds of new worlds, into which the Elves will expand and enrich

But aren't Elves bound to Arda? They live in Arda, they "die" in Arda, they are incarnated in Arda, and when Arda is finished they shall die out with Arda?

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
But aren't Elves bound to Arda? They live in Arda, they "die" in Arda, they are incarnated in Arda, and when Arda is finished they shall die out with Arda?

They are indeed, however Men arent, what stops them moving planets? Whats to stop Men from being re-started off, on a small out of the way planet called...Earth?

[HelplessModAddi]

But aren't Elves bound to Arda? They live in Arda, they "die" in Arda, they are incarnated in Arda, and when Arda is finished they shall die out with Arda?
I always thought that if Elves left Arda, they would simply become mortal like humans. So Elves go expand into brave new worlds, seventy years later they die, find themselves back on Arda and go do it again.

Makes me think of an idea I used to have - Elves come from Earth, they are bonded to it. Men leave Earth because Earth is not man's home. So maybe there is a men's home somewhere in the halls of Ea, where they would be immortal, wise, basically Elven, and all others races would be mortal? I know it sort of contradicts my earlier idea, but still.

Basically the reason I envision Elves going to dwell in these new worlds is that they have to have a part to play somehow, the same way Men would play a part in the Elvish apocalypse (see Turin).

[Helcaraxë]

Originally posted by HelplessModAddi
If you pay close attention, the Dagor Dagorath and the Second Music are never identified with each other. It stands to reason that first the world will end for Elves, and then, much later, the world will end for Men. It does fit with the theme of separate fates for the kindreds.


This isn't entirely true. Dagor Dagorath and the second music are and should be associated, because the second music will occur after Morgoth is slain by Turin. Regardless, all versions of the Music say that men will participate in the second music. Tolkien's final ideas in the Sil say "the children of Iluvatar" in general, meaning the elves as well.

[HelplessModAddi]

Dagor Dagorath and the second music are and should be associated, because the second music will occur after Morgoth is slain by Turin.
Will the second music occur immediately after, or just generally after Dagor Dagorath? I don't see how Turin's actions would trigger or signify anything about a music. If you can find any passage relating the two events the way you claim, please notify me.

Tolkien's final ideas in the Sil say "the children of Iluvatar" in general, meaning the elves as well.
True, but they must have different roles, else why have two races? You could make just one race with a lot of variety if they were all going to end up doing the same thing.

[Beleg]

where they would be immortal, wise, basically Elven,

Why?:confused: Err, the hindsight used here sound pretty obscure...

the same way Men would play a part in the Elvish apocalypse (see Turin).

Well Men also played an important role in the fight's against Morgoth, so it is no peculiarity to find Turin (one of the greatest men ever) to be present at the event of Dagor Dagorath.

Tolkien's final ideas in the Sil say "the children of Iluvatar" in general, meaning the elves as well.

Final Idea's in Sil? It would be better off if you provide a Quote preferably from some of the HOME's or even from Silmarillion (Published).

[HelplessModAddi]

What I mean, Beleg, is that Arda is the Elvish "home." In the Akallabeth (I don't have the book on me right now) it says that the reason men are mortal is because their home is not anywhere in Arda. So it stands to reason that there is another Arda out there where men belong and elves and other races do not.

And about Dagor Dagorath: that, in my mind, is the Elvish apocalypse, and the Mannish apocalypse comes later. It has nothing to do with who fights Morgoth, it is just about the relevance of the event.

[Helcaraxë]

First, HelplessModAddi: It's not clear exactly when the second music will occur, but it WILL be after the end of days, or Dagor Dagorath. Turin's actions are related b/c He is the one that will kill Morgoth thereby winning Dagor Dagorath and allowing the Second music to occur. And they certainly do have different roles, but Tolkien never makes these exact roles clear. And, Dagor Dagorath isn't really an apocolypse. If all men+Elves just ceased to exist, there could be no second music b/c the Children of Iluvatar must participate in it, and Tolkien makes it quite clear that there will be one.

Second, Beleg: When compiling Tolkien's work, Tolkien the younger chose the most up-to-date versions of all the stories, or tried to, which was difficult because they were so many-layered. But Tolkien's ideas toward the end of his life, which were in some cases the most recent versions, were collected by Christopher Tolkien and published in the Sil. However, if the most recent versions were inconsistent, he chose the slightly older but more in-tune versions.

[HelplessModAddi]

I don't think I made myself clear. By apocalypse, I don't mean extinction, I mean the final confrontation to which all of a races' history had been building up. My thought was that the Dagor Dagorath would matter more to Elves than the majority of Men. And where does it say that the Dagor Dagorath triggers the second music or immediately precedes it. All we know is, at some unspecified time, Melkor will die, and some unspecified time later, everyone starts singing. And who says they can't participate if they are extinct? Men may go to the Timeless Halls when they die. That's where the First Music took place, wasn't it? And I don't even think the Elves can go extinct.

[Helcaraxë]

Well, before the second music, the valar have to win the last battle, which they do according to the prophecy. MG dies. And Tolkien never says men go to the Timeless Halls.

[Beleg]

Beleg: When compiling Tolkien's work, Tolkien the younger chose the most up-to-date versions of all the stories, which was difficult because they were so many-layered. But Tolkien's ideas toward the end of his life, which were the most recent versions of everything, were collected by Christopher Tolkien and published in the Sil.

Morgoth's Bane, I and other have told you many times that this is not true in all cases. Haven't you yet understood that G-G s/o Fingon isn't the latest concept? or the totally edited version of Hurin's wandering's could have been replaced by the much better and interesting version in War of the Jewels? Even C-T admits that.
Major editing and revising was done by C-T on Silmrillion, since the later Quenta Silmarillion wasn't totally complete.
Well, for the second music to occur, the Valar would have to win the Last Battle.

They win the last battle. Haven't you read the prophecy well? Morgoth is slain.
And Tolkien never says men go to the Timeless Halls.

He supposes, but Is not sure.

[Helcaraxë]

Yes, beleg I have read the prophesy. That's what I'm trying to say, that Turin WILL slay MG. I know they win the last battle, but I'm trying to explain to HelplessModAdi the RELEVANCE of the Second Music. I didn't mean to imply that there was a chance they wouldn't win the LB. Sorry if that was misinterpreted. And yes, I know that the gg son of fingon was not the latest version. I don't recall saying it was.

[Sangahyando]

The Elves are the Quenya, the speakers they had teached the men how to speak. I am saying that in someway the Avari at Koivie-neni had access to the men, see BoLT : Volume One, Gilfanon's Tale, the Travail of the Noldoli. So if all was to start again the Elves would have to be with the men to teach them basic skills. If it was to begin again in an endless myriad of swirling stars, Elves and Men would have intertwined destinies.:p!!!

Sanghayando, great-grandson of Castamir the Usurper

[Noldor_returned]

I agree that all thoughts so far have a grain of truth in them, especially Helcaraxe. But I think it is similar to Ragnarok, and all elves, dwarves, men and hobbits and anything else good help eru and they have a party for the rest of eternity, something similar to Valhalla.
If you don't know what Ragnarok and Valhalla are, you should take a history lesson on Viking mythology. Or just search for it on the Web.

[Arvegil]

Query: how does the "not with a bang, but with a whimper" sort of ending contemplated in Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth apply to all this? I have seen some argue that the Athrabeth version supercedes the Dagor Dagorath version.

[Erestor Arcamen]

The Elves are the Quenya, the speakers they had teached the men how to speak

i was thinking. If you think about it, other than men from the second age, men in the third age dont seem like they have what it takes to make music better than the Ainur, i mean they are all greedy and war hungry and such. Look at the fourth age (what we know about it), they got bored with peace and started to cause turmoil in Gondor. Maybe after they die, near the end, the elves who taught men to speak (see Sangahyando's quote up above), maybe since elves (that one race that Manwe likes, i forget the name for some reason) will teach the men to sing after the Dagor, and then the Men will use these newly taught singing skills and sing.

Oh and on the fate of evil things. I bet they all get locked in a room with 234728947329472839472 balrogs that are angry at being woken up just like he was woken up in Moria. :p

[Helcaraxë]

I'm not sure we should take the "singing" so literally. What they did was probably more mental than vocal. The only point that Tolkien makes clear is that the second music will be greater than the first. As to the details, we can only speculate.

[baragund]

Let’s take a different approach to Beleg’s original question of “what is the ultimate fate of Men”. There has been a lot of discussion about the last Theme of Music, and what happens to Morgoth and all of the bad guys.

Helcaraxe provides the key passage from the Ainulindale from the published Silmarillion:

"Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Iluvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the children of Iluvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Iluvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Iluvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased."

This gives me an impression of ultimate reconciliation and understanding among all of Eru’s creation. When Tolkien says “the choirs of the Ainur” and “the children of Illuvatar” he means all of them, good bad and indifferent.

Look at this passage:

“…all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each…”

Doesn’t that sound like all of the conflicts between Melkor and the rest of the Valar through all of history were ultimately based on a horrible misunderstanding? This tells me that all of Eru’s beings, from Manwe to Sauron to Elendil to Ar-Pharazon to Finrod to Eol to Durin to Bilbo Baggins to Ugluk to Ungoliant to Shadowfax will set aside their differences and live in harmony. Like YayGollum said, “a nice little paradise place that everyone is equal and gets to have all kinds of fun”. And this would even apply to Melkor, despite the writings of how Turin is supposed to slay him at the Dagor Dagorath. I don’t know how a mortal can “slay” a god and I don’t know what “slay” means in that context.

Consider this passage at the part of the Ainulindale where Tolkien is describing how wonderful was the First Theme of the Music:

…it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Iluvatar; for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself. To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren.

...But being alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren.

So Melkor thought he could make better music than the theme given to him by Iluvatar, and he wanted greater power and glory in the playing of the music. Is that necessarily a bad thing? Self advancement and innovation are usually considered virtues. The problems came when his themes clashed with Iluvatar’s resulting in discord. Now, was there any counseling or friendly appeal to Melkor letting him know that what he was doing was causing harm to the other Ainur? Any asking of him to be a team player? No, immediately there was this drawing of lines in the sand between the two sides and immediate conflict.

And then there is the acknowledgment that Melkor’s efforts are really implementing Eru’s will:

And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.

Also…

And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory.

Kind of makes you think that if there had been some constructive dialogue when Melkor started interfering with the First Theme, all of the subsequent conflicts could have been prevented. But Eru’s words tell me that the conflict is necessary to build what will eventually be paradise.

So, to answer Belegs original question, Men join all of Eru’s creatures in the paradise known as Arda Remade, which is represented by the Final Theme of Music.

[Barliman Butterbur]

HOME#5



So what do you think will happen to Men on the "doom's day"?
What is the ultimate fate of men?

:confused:

Well, are we not in the 7th or 8th Age by now? Men have dominated for at least 4 or 5 ages, all you have to do is take a look at the world news for a month or so, then go out and shoot yourself...

Barley

[Thorondor_]

Both Myths Transformed (Notes on motives in the Silmarillion, iii) and The Later Quenta Silmarillion (Of the severance of marriage), promote an ambivalent view on what Arda Healed will be: a finite work which will be enjoyed outside time - or - a place in Ea, sometime in the future, when the marring shall be removed (by the direct intervention of Eru, as Finrod holds in the Atrabeth).

According to the second source (later quenta), most elves believe that the Fate of Men will not be concerned with Arda at all.

[baragund]

Man, I really need to read those later writings in HOME XI and XII.:(

[Barliman Butterbur]

Both Myths Transformed (Notes on motives in the Silmarillion, iii) and The Later Quenta Silmarillion (Of the severance of marriage), promote an ambivalent view on what Arda Healed will be: a finite work which will be enjoyed outside time - or - a place in Ea, sometime in the future, when the marring shall be removed (by the direct intervention of Eru, as Finrod holds in the Atrabeth).

According to the second source (later quenta), most elves believe that the Fate of Men will not be concerned with Arda at all.

I believe Tolkien had true foresight as to the ultimate future of Man (blurring the reality between Middle-earth and the real earth), and put it down in passing in a short exchange between Gimli and Legolas, which you can read in my signature.

Barley

[baragund]

What, do you meant the "railing at idiots" thing?:p

[Barliman Butterbur]

What, do you meant the "railing at idiots" thing?:p

Read the first two lines of the sig.

Barley