Judgment - Round 2: Scholars vs OiE

[Scatha]

This is the thread for the judging of the second debate round.
The debate can be found HERE. (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11965)

The judges for this debate are:

Nom- Guild of Outcasts
Snaga- Guild of the periaur
Mormegil- Guild of Tolkienology
Scatha- Guild of Elves/Dwarves
Ithrynluin- Neutral

The outcome of the poll depends on the judges and not this poll.
Guildmembers and participants are welcome to post their comments, but please refrain from voting.

This poll will close in 5 days.

[Ancalagon]

Many thanks Scatha for what has proved to be an extremely interesting and useful debate. Certainly for my own part I have learned a great deal about Dwarves that I had not known in the past, and for me, this is the point of debating, moreso than simple point-scoring.

Thanks to the Guild of Scholars, I wish you well in the judgement and for your future debates:)

[Inderjit S]

Thanks to the Guild of Scholars, I wish you well in the judgement and for your future debates

And the same to you O-iE and Anc. You sure err..ignited my interest in this debate. ;)

[Mormegil]

OK, looks like I'm the first judge up.:)

Well, I thought it was a good debate with many interesting points being brought up. Both sides fought their corners well, and the evidence used was top quality.

The debate also made me think of things in a different light, and I now have some new opinions about Dwarves and their personalities and actions.

My decision on who won this debate was a close call, and I spent a long while reviewing the threads making sure I hadn't missed anything.

Both teams performed very well, but my vote goes to the Guild of Scholars, who I thought just pipped their opposition.

Well done both teams!:)

[Ithrynluin]

I would like to briefly comment on a few points.

1.

Originally posted by Turgon
Did greed diminish the Dwarven Race?

It is the posistion of the Ost-in-Edhil that it was not so. Greed was a trait shared by many races in Middle-earth, The Greed of the Dwarves being as much a cliché as the Wisdom of the Elves.

I have always felt this way. People tend to generalize and stereotypify way too much - loosely based on a few examples!

2.

Originally posted by baragund
Turgon argues that a dearth of dwarf women and their reluctance to marry was the cause of their diminishing. The Scholars would say that was a symptom of their disease rather than the cause.

Skillfully said, baragund!

3.

I feel that this quote:

Letters of JRRT: 203
That there is no allegory does not, of course, say there is no applicability. There always is. And since I have not made the struggle wholly unequivocal: sloth and stupidity among hobbits, pride and among Elves, grudge and greed in Dwarf-hearts, and folly and wickedness among the 'Kings of Men', and treachery and power-lust even among the 'Wizards', there is I suppose applicability in my story to present times.

worked better for the OiE's side of the argument.

Especially after Anc's excellent interpretation of it:

Originally posted by Ancalagon
Applicability! The quote from letter#203 relates only to an endemic peculiarity to that particular race which he mentions. If one [i]must 'apply applicability' then it might seem most reasonable to assume these are singular characteristics locally applicable to some of each race. Very few Hobbits are actually slothful and stupid. Pride is not attributable to the majority of Elves, especially if one compares most of the Noldor to Fëanor and his Sons. Folly and Wickedness only among the 'Kings of Men' who later became subject to Sauron? This does not represent the entire race of Men nor does it represent all 'Kings of Men' who for the most part have fought bravely in defence of their lands, laws and their virtue. Neither then can 'grudging and greed in Dwarf-Hearts' simply be cast out as a generalisation, systemic to the entire Dwarven race. Tolkien identified some aspects of 'applicability' in his character Races that seem on the surface apparent, but in truth do not nearly encapsulate the reality of each.


4.

Originally posted by Ancalagon
Everyone lusted after this jewel, not simply the Dwarves. One fact that should not be discounted is whether the Dwarves would have slain Thingol had Thingol not make such arrogant and insulting remarks to them.


Indeed!

5.

Maedhros then provides the following quotes:

When Thrór came to Moria the Gate was open. Nár begged him to beware, but he took no heed of him, and walked proudly in as an heir that returns. But he did not come back.

Such was the tale that Nár brought back to Thráin; and when he had wept and torn his beard he fell silent. Seven days he sat and said no word. Then he stood up and said: 'This cannot be borne!' That was the beginning of the War of the Dwarves and the Orcs, which was long and deadly, and fought for the most part in deep places beneath the earth.

Above all, this proves that the Dwarves valued their history and heritage. They felt strongly about their ancestry and I don't see any difference from the other races.

6.

Originally posted by Maedhros
Then in 2790, Thrór in his old age, get this idea of trying to amass more riches and become wealthy in Moria,


I think this was more of a nostalgic notion on Thror's part, desiring to revive the blissful kingdom of his forefathers. I think greed played a smaller part here.

7.

The Hobbit
"No!" said Thorin. "There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West. Some courage and some wisdom, blended in measure. If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. But sad or merry, I must leave it now. Farewell!"

Originally posted by Maedhros
Thorin in the end realized that his values were not as good as those of the hobbits who valued other things above gold. Now it makes you wonder, why would all of those Dragons went to slay of all those dwarven kingdoms? Why not go to Mirkwood or The Shire instead?
Answer: Because they are as greedy as the dwarves are.


A good quote and a good point.

8.

Anc strikes back with some good common sense:

Originally posted by Ancalagon
Whoaaa...let's just back up for a moment and take another look at what you are saying!
Are you saying that because Dwarves successfully mined, manufactured and retained their wealth for the purposes of securing a safe, viable economy within their realms, this makes them greedy? That because they are prepared to work long hours of labour seeking out fine metals from which to craft beautiful artifacts, weapons and even toys with with to trade for food, wine or beer, wood and clothing from surrounding towns and villages, this makes them greedy?

9.

Chymaera's first post is very convincing. The quotes he provides are rather clear - Gimli's 'monologue' is devoid of any indications of greed whatsoever.

10.

Originally posted by Inderjit S
Or what about their delving into Khazad-dum? As Maedhros points out, they didn't need to delve so far into Khazad-dum, they already were righ and prosperous enough, yet because of their greed for Mithril they awoke a sleeping evil, they delved too far, and thus came about the ruin of the Longbeards-the greatest of all the dwarven houses.


I wouldn't blame the Dwarves for delving deeper for mithril. It is not so obvious that they did this out of greed, rather to make new things that could only be made out of this precious metal...

11.

Baragund comments on Thorin's apparent greed before the Battle of Five Armies took place (the last post on page 3). Very well argued Baragund.


All in all, both teams were equally convincing - stronger in some parts of the debate and weaker in others. I vote for a draw.

[baragund]

Thanks, everybody, for a most enjoyable and educational debate! I sure learned a lot, not only in preparing our initial positions but in the research and collaboration on countering OiE's most skillful arguments. Sorry I kind of disappeared at the end but I had to go judge a Round 1 debate and the two teams really needed closure on that.

Just remember that the whole point of these debates is having fun and increasing our understanding of JRRT's works. Keep that in mind and everybody wins.

[Elendil3119]

I want to congratulate all the participants on an amazing and well-fought debate. This is one of the most interesting topics that I've seen for a debate in quite a while, and both teams did an outstanding job defending their positions. :)

[Scatha]

Thanks Elendil,

I thought about this question a good while, before I decided to use it. I must say this has proven to be a most interesting debate indeed, with both teams equally countering eachothers statements.

In light of that, I voted for a draw.

[Snaga]

I will vote for Ost-in-Edhil, although for most of the debate I was leaning towards the Scholars.

Turgon initially, and then backed up made great character witnesses for the dwarves and I am convinced that greed is not their chief motivating force.

But Maedhros cut a huge dash in that argument by suggesting that not only the dwarves own greed, but also the greed of others might contribute to their diminuishment.

And then Baragund seemed to have clinched it for me with his reply to Chrysophalax: Originally posted by Baragund
Finally we come to Chrysophalax's post where she writes:

If any among us can prove that greed alone led to their fall, then kudos! If not, well...

Well, that's not the debate question, is it? The debate question is "Did greed diminish the Dwarven Race?" There is no qualifier that says it was the "only" cause of their diminishment or even if it was the "main" cause of their diminishment (although any rational person would come to that conclusion after reading this debate ). The question was simply "Did greed diminish the Dwarven Race?" and to that, there can be no other answer than YES.This seemed to leave Ost-in-Edhil with the impossible task of proving greed played no part whatsoever.

This was hanging in my mind as I battled my way through post after post of densely argued stuff from both sides which was essentially a long defeat for Ancalagon and co.

Somebody needed to change the game, and ironically it was Maedhros who, inadvertently, showed me where there weak-point lay. He provided a definition of 'diminuish'. I could see the line of attack, but would OiE?

'Show me the diminuishment'? asks Chymaera. Ahh he was so close....

The Scholars foundered slightly, but provided tenuous examples of population loss... they were suddenly showing signs of a wobble. Then Anc posts again, right at the last, these words from Chymaera: Now I ask AGAIN; where is the diminishment?

Have the Dwarves been diminished in Nobility? NO!

Have they been diminished in Spirit? NO!

Has fighting with the forces of evil diminished them? NO!

Perhaps the Scholar's are suggesting that Dwarves have become shorter in statue and that greed is shrinking them?

Even if they were diminished by the deaths of a great number of Dwarf-warriors defending their homes. They were not hiding in their mountain while the Men of Dale died in the streets.

They fought toe-to-toe beside their allies. Daín and Brand fought till all (Men and Dwarves, women and children) were safely inside the Mountain.

The diminishment of the Dwarves is a sad thing to behold.

Now numbers can be replenished slowly, yes.

With Sauron defeated and the true diminishment of the Orcs coming to pass in the Fourth age. In the Dominion of Man, Dwarves will flourish and thrive under the protection of the Crown of the Reunited Kingdom. Blam! The diminuishment is not decisively proven. For the dwarves seem to me, from all I have read in this debate, to have remained more steadfastly true to their nature than any other of the Free Peoples. Diminuishment is about more than just numbers, and even the evidence that they had overall declined in numbers has not been shown. But spiritually, the dwarves have stayed true to themselves, and the steel that Aule put in their hearts has served them well.

All that is left of the Scholars case is, I am afraid, that they have convinced me that greed, at times, contributed to some hard times for the dwarves. But they survived them, undiminuished.

I must applaud both sides for their tenacity and endurance in this debate. But my hat comes off to Chymaera for the match-winning twist right at the death, that snatched victory from the jaws of defeat.:)

[Nóm]

GoS opens:
Aule made them “strong and unyielding”, “stone-hard, stubborn, fast in friendship and in enmity…” in order to resist Melkor. Aule created them “to have learners to whom he could teach his lore and his crafts…”. Here we see the race of dwarves created with a built-in desire to create things of wealth and beauty, like Aule, coupled with a singular stubbornness that we will see can be turned into obsession and greed.

The Nauglamir mess was used as the great example. (OiE claims that this was the work of the Doom of Mandos.. and points out Melian's words to Thingol, that he doomed himself or his daughter). The Nauglamir arguement remained through the debate, and in the end I agree that the greed of the dwarves was one of the causes of that distaster.

He then goes on to tell about the Rings of Power causing Greed. This is also something that was argued back and forth during the debate. I am left with the belief that the Rings were not designed in specific to cause greed among the dwarves, but that they did have this effect because dwarves were inclided to gain materiel things by nature.

of the rings, GoS:
The difference is in the race itself. Men proved easier to dominate while dwarves didn't. Unfortunately in this debate, the rings that Sauron gave to the dwarves ignited their greed to whole new levels.
I am left agreeing with this.

Another example was Thorin's refusal to share the wealth with Bard's and Thranduil's people. To this OiE points out that the Arkenstone, a single gem, was nore dear to Thorin than a mountain of treasure.

and 4th: the mighty Kazad-dum (OiE says this was misfortune that could have happend anywhere, and says it was not greed but love of their own works that moved the dwarves to seek metal in Moria). But GoS later convinces me that greed was a cause of the extensive mining in Moria.

GoS points out that Tolkien himself mentioned greed of the dwarves when naming faults in races. But where they scored points with me was GoS quoting of this:
`The wealth of Moria was not in gold and jewels, the toys of the Dwarves; nor in iron, their servant. Such things they found here, it is true, especially iron; but they did not need to delve for them: all things that they desired they could obtain in traffic. For here alone in the world was found Moria-silver, or true-silver as some have called it: mithril is the Elvish name. The Dwarves have a name which they do not tell. Its worth was ten times that of gold, and now it is beyond price; for little is left above ground, and even the Orcs dare not delve here for it. The lodes lead away north towards Caradhras, and down to darkness. The Dwarves tell no tale; but even as mithril was the foundation of their wealth, so also it was their destruction: they delved too greedily and too deep, and disturbed that from which they fled, Durin's Bane.
And as GoS said:
All they needed they could obtain, but because the dwarves were greedy, they wanted instead mithril, which is worth more than gold to be richer, and thus they found Durin’s Bane which did in fact led to their diminishment.

Though OiE later argued more against the greed of the dwarves, saying the haords of wealth were not caused by greed but love of beautiful things they made, and kept for economic reasons.
For example, OiE says:
they were shrewd economists of their day.

And explains their reasoning for the statement.
.. and they say things like this:

Perhaps the Guild of Scholars see the creation of works of beauty an act of greed? But this is a position the people of Ost-in-Edhil stand strongly against. The desire to create is inherent in all creatures the greater as well the lesser. The dwarves were destined to create - was it not their ultimate destiny?
I find it hard to accuse the Naugrim of an unhealthy greed.

Perhaps loving too well the works of their hand would be a fairer judgement?
Their craftsmanship, fierceness in battle, loyalty to allies and yes...ability to hang on to their wealth,should all be seen as qualities to be emulated, not disparaged!
The Scholar's would have us believe that this led to the diminishment of the Dwarven people. Nothing could be further from the truth, this was the very essence of the dwarven soul, the root of their glory - if the dwarves had not delved and crafted, wrought and laboured, then we would have diminshment.
We see here the dwarves prizing one object of great beauty over a mountain of wealth, not an act of greed but an act of love. So it was with Thorin and the Arkenstone. So it was Gimli as he looked in awe at the Glittering Caves and declared: No dwarf could be unmoved by such loveliness.

So some of the points scored by GoS there were lost, since I was left doubting just how often and to what extent greed was the motive of the dwarves.

But more points scored by GoS here:
Our friends from OiE say that it was the Doom of Mandos, but did Mandos made Thingol desire for the Silmaril? No.
Did Mandos made the dwarves desire for the Silmaril? No. It was the greed of both Thingol and the Naugrim that eventually caused a great diminish of the dwarves then.

The fact that many people desire it, in no way diminishes the fact that it was the greed of dwarves that brought tragedy to Doriath and to the dwarves themselves.
Mandos didn't made Thingol accept the Silmaril, just as Mandos didn't made the Kinslaying of Alqualondë. The characters have to be responsible for their actions.
Exactly!

The Doom of Mandos was something argued back and forth quite a bit in this debate, and I take the side of GoS in this aspect. Unfortunately this aspect does not prove to be a crucial part of GoS's arguement for me.
GoS also points out that:
As my fellow Scholar has mentioned, the dwarves have been the object of several predations by dragons (Moria, Erebor) and other assaults like the one of Beren to the Naugrim. Unfortunately for the dwarves, this attacks were caused by their greed of gold and wealth that attracted the dragons to their mountains. When you kill a large part of the population, it affects the growth rate of that population which in turns leads to the diminishment of it.
Sounded good, but as I said above, in the end I am left doubting how much of this was really greed, and that it diminished the dwarves.
OiE says:
Your interpretation of the question lacks conviction I'm afraid, for Scatha has already set the scene and laid down the context for which this question is to be discussed.

The question in it's final form, is very open to the interpretation that Maedhros went with. But even if not, even the greed of others should not count, it does not hurt the previous arguements of Maedros. As he said, greed of Thingol and dwarves. Unfortunately for GoS, I can only be convinced that greed was part of the cause of this, even though I agree with their take on the Doom of Mandos.
And OiE says regarding the slaying of Thingol:
This was not about greed, nor was it about lust, but about pride and wrath and ultimately it betrayed them to their deaths.
While I am left thinking it was in part about greed, these other things were factors too.

[Nóm]

Tolkien identified some aspects of 'applicability' in his character Races that seem on the surface apparent, but in truth do not nearly encapsulate the reality of each.

OiE points that out, making the statement in letter 203 of little worth as it was used by GoS. And this was not changed in my mind, by the repeated use of the quote from the letter.

Excellent arguements by GoS:
Why did the dragons attack the dwarves? Why not men or elves? Because the Dwarves had gathered hoards of treasure, not simply beautiful things to use or decorate their halls, hoards. Why would someone want so much more than they could possibly need? Greed.

Fair enough but the dragons harassed the dwarves most because they were the only race to hoard their wealth. Erebor attracted Smaug because of the sheer excessive concentration of riches within that mountain.

I think that this is the very meaning of diminishing of a race, and it happened just because Thrór wasn’t satisfied with what he had and wanted to be rich.
Remember, the topic did greed diminish the dwarven race? Answer is yes. No greed of the dwarves, no great accumulation of gold by them, no attacks of the dragons, no diminishment of the dwarves. With all of these examples, there should be no problem stating that it was greed that led to the diminishment of the dwarves.
Why is it that OiE wants to restrict the topic to only the greed of the dwarves? Answer: because if they don’t, they don’t have a case.

Why is it that from 40SA to 1697 SA they had no problem in their dwelling there. The Balrog appeared in 1980 TA, after the dwarves gained their rings and greedily kept up looking for more treasure that they would ever need. The direct consequence of that was the finding of the Balrog and the desolation of Moria. Diminishment of the race.

So we can see that not only it Scatha’s ravages ended up with the slaying of many dwarves, but it ended up too with the estranging and battle between dwarves and the Éothéod which results in the diminishing of the dwarves too.

I did a lot of going back and forth in this debate and those quotes by GoS were very strong arguement, and they had me convinced, but only for a time.

OiE:
You talk of greed as though Dwarves should have been simply working themselves almost to death and handing out everything they found and crafted, free or to the lowest bidder! Where is the economical sense in that, how does one support a city if they do not accumulate wealth with which to barter and trade?
They were fantastic in their skills and it brought them rich reward and gave security to the towns around them who traded openly in sustainable goods. Now, tell me again why Dwarves on the whole are greedy?

GoS:
Hehe. Interesing thing really. I made two posts regarding dwarven thinking and the effects that their greed had on their diminishment, and you didn't even try and argue against it. It makes me wonder old pal
Made me wonder too. But I am really in doubt now (as I judge this) about just how much greed there was among the dwarves. So those bits I quoted above by OiE carry a lot of weight by the end of the debate. And I agree with OiE on this point too:
The Greed of the Dwarves being as much a cliché as the Wisdom of the Elves.


I am left thinking that greed played a part in some of the distasters with the dwarves, but not a big enough part of it. And just how were the dwarves diminished, as OiE asks?

I have to ask myself here: What qualifies as the diminishment of a race?

So greed was a part in some distasters... played a part in some bad things that happend to dwarves, but: Did greed diminish the Dwarven Race?

No one convinced me that it did. They took losses to their population at times, but the race does not look to have been diminished.

Damn good arguements by GoS, but I am left thinking that they argued for the impossable.

My vote goes to OiE for inflicting such doubt on GoS's excellent arguements.

[Scatha]

Ok, with all the judges voted, that leads to:

1 vote for GoS
2 votes for OiE
2 votes for a draw

The outcome:
GoS 2 - OiE 3

Congratulations to OiE for winning the debate.
Scholars, you have put up a strong debate. Well done.