Judgment - Round Two: Elves/Dwarves vs. Outcasts

[Anamatar IV]

Judging time! The debate can be found here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11958)

The judges are:

Maedhros - Scholars---Outcasts
Chymeara- OiE
Anamatar - Tolkienology---Outcasts
Snaga - Periur---Outcasts
Ithynluin - taking place of the poll---Outcasts

First, let me start by congradulating both teams for an excellent debate.

Now, on to the judging.

The openers:

The Guild of Elves opener was shaky and that was a problem, especially since Guild of Outcasts came out with a strong and well-prepared opening strike. Guild of Elves, though got the basic ideas out, didn't go into detail. And I think they mentioned the wrong reasons for their side, but that's not as important. So on openers, my vote goes to Guild of Outcasts.

The counters:

Both teams did good jobs countering eachother. There were places here and there on both teams where I think they could have countered better. But as the Guild of Elves were thorough and consistent throughout their counters, and several members of Guild of Outcasts countered half-heartedly and didn't delve too deeply in elabortation, my vote here goes to the Guild of Elves.

The debate:

Here's the tie-breaking vote. Both teams did a very good job debating. The level of debating rose steadily from the first post to the very end. Both teams used quotes to their advantages. But again, some members on Guild of Outcasts didn't elaborate too well. The Guild of Outcasts was consistent in their debate and it seemed the Guild of Elves were kind of all over the place.

Guild of Outcasts was more convincing though. The Guild of Elves had one incredibly convincing post in the early stages but they strayed away from it and I never heard of it again.

So my vote is for the Guild of Outcasts.

[Maedhros]

Very interesting topic.
There were several interesting points that I would like to bring up:
1. That because of Eowyn, Merry was there in the battle.
2. Merry's sword was unique when it stroke the Witchking.
3. Merry saved Eowyn.
4. It was Eowyn the one who actually dealt the killing blow to the Witchking.

I think that both teams did a great job with this topic, although the Guild of Elves could have done much better with their opening posts.
I will give my vote to the Guild of Outcasts because they convinced me based on points 2 and 3.

[Ithrynluin]

These were the best arguements that had the most impact on my decision:

Originally posted by Nóm
Eowyn delt the final blow, but it was only effective because of Merry's. Her dealing this final blow does not make her the primary factor in the witch-king's death anymore than Gollum was the primary factor in the destruction of the ring, merely the final.


It's very very hard not to agree with this.

The strongest GoE/GoD argument was that of Beth - that the Witch-king was doomed to be slain by a female, not a male. Some of their posts and points were too inconsistent and not exactly to the point (e.g. the statement that the winged steed was 'unnatural'...).

Originally posted by Omnipotent_elf
this is not bird. It is an unusual being, and as such it is unusal. IT IS UNUSUAL AS ARE THE NAZGHUL, and thus there is a link. As such, if you kill one, the theory is you can kill the other.


I fail to see where you were heading with this.

Originally posted by Omnipotent_elf
These prophecies often turn true, and as such, had large impacts on the lives of the future generations (merry and eowyn - morale in believing they could kill the witch-king) so therefor does matter.

But how can you be sure that Merry and Eowyn were even aware of the prophecy? Long years have passed since the Witch-king's banishment from Angamar, and the feeling I got was that such a prophecy would only be remembered by the wise and noble people - the Stewards of Gondor, the leaders of the Dunedain, Imladris...

I give the debate to the Guild of Outcasts. Well done.

To the GoE/GoD - Don't get discouraged you guys, your skills are improving rapidly. Keep up the good work and enthusiasm!

[YayGollum]

Thanks, people. Anyways, I have to go on a rant. I did not like the side of the debate I had to go for. Ick. Gollum was the hero in the same way that Eowyn was. The goals were to destroy the One Ring and the WitchKing. :D Gollum and Eowyn did that. Noone else gets to be called heroes. Sure, the superly boring hobbitses helped out, but Gollum and Eowyn were the ones that actually saved the day. I gots to hope that these Dwarf and elf people agree with me and weren't just debating that way because they had to. :eek:

[Maedhros]

I have to say Yay that I find it very difficult to read your posts.

[Ithrynluin]

I've never really understood why some people find it hard to read his posts. What is so hard to grasp exactly? :confused: I like how his style of writing is somewhat different than most people's, because that contributes diversity to the forum, and diversity is good.

[Scatha]

Can we possibly get the two remaining judges to place their votes please, before round 3 starts?

[YayGollum]

*twiddles thumbs as they wait* Yes, Maedhros person, I have heard that some people can't understand me every now and then. I've asked for people to point my mistakes out. Is there a good reason for people not PMing me when they can't understand something?

[Chymaera]

So sorry, I just got back. (extended trip)
I will have to go over everything and get back to yo with my jugdement.

[Snaga]

Ooops ... sorry ... I forgot I was judging this.... here goes

Omnipotent Elf... I don't think your opening helped your team greatly, if I'm honest. You immediately gave GOO the chance to set the agenda....

Nom... does a great job. A very solid start with no very obvious flaws. Her contention is that it woz the sword wot won it. (O1)

Scatha's question: that killing the steed was essential for Merry to have the courage to get a blow in seems valid (DE1)

Bethelarian: introduces the prophesy. Appears to show a female hand is required to fulfill it (DE2)

Omnipotent_Elf: presents an argument about morale but it seems unconvincing...

Yay: dismisses the prophesy in characteristic style. I laughed so much at this:D All of that craziness about Glorfindel talking doesn't really matter. Or should we really believe every little thing any old elf decides to blurt out?
Omni: begins to argue the morale point better... noone had dared to stand and face the Witch-King before. This builds upon and enhances DE1. But the defence of the prophesy is weak.

Beth: Also attempts to defend the prophesy, but this is not convincing me... To be fair it could do with being finally killed off, and the Outcasts have not done so yet...

Nom: duly does so. (DE2=X)

If Glorfindel does mean "male person" then yes... her slaying witchking was the fulfillment of the prophecy, however, this does not mean that her role was the primary. Nom also cuts through a swathe of stuff about spirits and so on, which I had in any case skimmed over. She takes a good prod at the courage argument, without really slaying it. She then repeats O1, which hasnt been responded to yet.

Beth: Repeats DE1

Nom: makes some interest points about courage, which suggest Merry might have been brave enough anyway. DE1 is reduced, but not destroyed.

Scatha: admits there is no evidence to prove DE1 right or wrong. Is this the death of DE1? He tries another tack: there could be another sword. This actually addresses O1 for the first time. (DE3)

Yay: summarises

Omni: Adds that Merry needed Eowyn to get to Pelennor. (DE4) Tries to revive DE1...

Nom: Destroys DE3 with a quote. No other sword will get the job done (DE3=X). O1 lives! She also tackles DE4: Merry wanted to come, so he gets the credit for being there. Challenges the Dwarves/Elves for more evidence for DE1.

Rhiannon: Adds the argument that the Merry saved Eowyn's life, by attacking him just as he was going to thwack her. (O2)

Omni: Repeats and reinforces DE4. The attempt to disparage Merry's blow as 'a cowards blow' is... erm... hard to agree with!;) Then argues that Eowyn and Merry have a symbiotic relationship (DE5)

The-Elf-Herself: Suggests that D4 implies the horse was pivotal! Excellent!:D But not decisive. Repeats O2.

Omni: Repeats DE3, but this is already dead. Is side-tracked into defending the charge of cowardice.... Again repeats DE4.

Rhiannon: Suggests that Merry would have found someone else to take him if Eowyn hadnt.

Nom: Points out that that calling Merry a coward hardly supports DE1. Ouch! Contends that the claim that Eowyn giving Merry a lift is more important than the fact that Merry was willing to go is unreasonable This sounds fair to me too. Nom also admits it was a team effort... this could be seen as agreeing with DE5.

Yay: Describes the scene of carnage

Beth: Summarises well for GoD/E, adding that Eowyn dealt the final blow (DE6), and repeats DE2, DE4, and claims it wasnt Merry but the sword (DE7).

Yay: posts a concluding post which is rambling but does deal with DE7 well enough.

--------------------------------

So who won that? Well, the Guild of Outcasts made two key points: that Merry's sword broke the spell that made the Witch-King invincible, and that his blow saved Eowyn's life, and without that she could not have dealt the death-blow. Nom and Rhiannon deserve credit for these highly effective arguments.

In fairness to GoD/E this question was always going to favour whichever side was arguing for Merry. In that position they could have (and occasionally veered towards) arguing it was neither Eowyn or Merry especially - cf DE5 and DE7. The argument about Eowyn getting Merry to the fight backs this up well, but is not strong enough to defeat the Outcasts two key arguments. If they had been tenaciously arguing for this 'neither Merry nor Eowyn' position I would have looked favourably. As it is they threw it in as an aside, and the difficulty of backing up the harder side of the debate is their own fault: they chose which side to argue for.

I give my vote to the Outcasts.:)

[YayGollum]

I look so good in that summary of the debate. :rolleyes: oh well. At least I added some entertainment. :D

[Snaga]

Believe me Yay, there is no harm in that! After some of the intense stuff that I've seen in these debates, your posts were quite welcome.:) Anyway, summarising what others have said is quite a good thing to do in a debate.

[Nóm]

Fun debate.

Thanks everyone... judges, GoO, and not least to GoD/E. GoD/E you are good sports, and pleasant opponents.

[Chymaera]

A congratulation to both teams, a lively debate concerning a very tough question.


The Question;

Who was the primary factor in the death of the Witch-King, Eowyn or Merry?

Having read through the debate and finding that I had to go back and read the chapter over again.

I found both arguments to be good.

But in the end I had to look at what was not argued in the debate:

That when Dernhelm revealed (him/her)self to the Witch-king as Éowyn 'woman'; It is this moment which the Witch-king shows his doubt!

This doubt is last ingredient in the downfall of the Witch-king. This doubt caused the opening that Merry needed to carry on.

The Guild of Elves/Dwarves Team failed to bring this point up. I feel that this would have strengthened their argument enough for the victory.

Therefore I have to give the vote to The Guild of Outcasts.

[omnipotent_elf]

I look so good in that summary of the debate. oh well. At least I added some entertainment.

and i look soo bad.......

well thanx for the debate everyone
you guys deserved to win.....hands down actually