Judgment - Round 2: Tolkienology vs. Periaur

[Arvedui]

It is time to let the judgement start. The judges are as follows:

Idril - Scholars
The-Elf-Herself - Outcasts
Glorfindel1187 - Elves
reem - neutral

and myself

As there is now poll this time, and as Round 3 starts the coming sunday, I will ask the judges to post their judgement no later than the coming monday (June 16th) at 11:00 AM (that is GMT).
I hope there is now possible misunderstanding with the timing this time?;)

EDIT: Prior edit edited.
And Lhun can still delete her post now......;)

[Lhunithiliel]

I wish best luck to the judges in their job over this troublesome debate.

However, I would like them to take into consideration that this "Judgement"-thread had been opened BEFORE I posted my last post on the debate - thread.
This is a result of the misunderstanding about the dead-line of the debate.
I strictly observed ALL the rules of the tournament, including posting my final post BEFORE the debate is officially closed - that is 14:00 Wednesday!

[reem]

very well then, i think i'll be the first to make known her verdict.
since my computer broke down and i have a very short time to write this, i'll be brief.
the topic was a good one, despite other people's views. and i found that many points could have been made if the participants had paid more attention on debating rather than complaining. though i have to admit, it seemed in the beggining that the tolkienists had the upper hand. but periaur rose to the occasion.
thanks to the efforts of particular team members, i have come to the decision that periaur deserves to win.
that doesn't mean that the tolkienologists didn't show alot of skill, but in the end, all of their reaoning was pushed aside by the skills of particular members of the periaur team. good work guys.
i was pretty impressed. i thought you were the losing side, but i was wrong.
i have to go now. i hope my decission was just and reasonable. but i have to admit that i was pretty impressed at the end result of the debates.
but both sides have shown exeptional debating skills.
reem

[Gil-Galad]

What can I say!?The First Round was a total mess if we are talking about judges.The Second Round is a PARODY!!! Most of all because of our opponents' behaviour.I don't want to be at some of my Guild debators' place,cause that is a LITERAL MOCKERY WITH THEIR WORKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I will continue to do my job as a Deputy Guildmaster and I will continue to do the best for the organization of our Debate teams,but I will not participate in the rounds.WHY?!THAT ROUND GIVES THE ANSWER?!

[Aulë]

Umm....GG,
Chill.:cool:

You seem a bit angry...
Everything has been sorted out, and I don't see the need for any more 'angry posts'. :)

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Aulë
Umm....GG,
Chill.:cool:

You seem a bit angry...
Everything has been sorted out, and I don't see the need for any more 'angry posts'. :)
I'm very angry because of some impudent.............anyway I've said what I have to say.

[Lhunithiliel]

Please, guys, cool down your young blood and let the judges do their job, which seems to be not so easy!

[Gil-Galad]

I'm not angry because of possible lost.As you know I play football and as the captain of my team I'm the person who most can confess that our opponents were better.Everybody loses,the quetsion is how.Anyway.
I was angry because of some things which seemed to me unfair.Anyway,let's the judges do their job.

[reem]

err..GG, if 'impudent' was directed at me, i hope i don't deserve it!!
anyway, you might not have lost at all, i am only one judge of many and they still haven't given their view on the matter.
anyway, if what i have decided seems somewhat unjust i think that the fact that this is my first time judging should mellow anyones' anoyance with me. but i stand by what i have siad. and now let's just see what my fellow judges have to say about the teams' performance.
reem

[Idril]

Reem I don't think, actually I'm fairly certain G-G's comment was not directed at you.

[The-Elf-Herself]

Alright, time for my decision. After reading through the debate several times, I have to say that both sides argued their case well. However, my vote also goes to the Guild of Periaur. The Guild of Tolkienologists did a really good job of utilizing several points, but I don't believe they really explored them as well as they could have. While the Guild of Periaur seemed to get a slow start, their closing arguments were cohesive and sold me on their side of the debate.

[Idril]

Was Éowyn right in joining the ride of the Rohirrim, and disobeying King Théodens orders to stay in Rohan?

The Tolkienologist say yes, and Periaur contest no.

Well done both teams especially inlight of 'the other goings on' taking place. I was given some excellent tidbits to chew over and digest:D.

I feel the question perhaps should have read: was Eowyn right in disobeying Theoden’s orders to stay in Rohan, by joining the ride of the Rohirrim? This may have averted the discussions as to whether Theoden 'ordered' Eowyn to remain behind or not. The question presumes she did disobey the king. Mrs Maggott agrees to this in this statement Eowyn disobeyed Theoden. End of story. The question is not did she do so, but was she correct in doing so.

So was she right to disobey the king? I’m afraid the Tolkienlogist didn’t really supply an adequate reason for her running off with the men to do battle and leaving her people leaderless and possibly ending the line of Eorl. I have tried very hard to keep my own personal views on this matter locked in the cupboard under the stairs. The Periaur argue she had a death wish – but with honour. The Tolkienologist claim it’s the Oath of Eorl and it was predestined. Who kill the the Witch-King? I honestly believe it was a conbination of both Merry and Eowyn's actions. I am not whole convinced by either Guild and think more could have been done in this area.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Looking at the events on Pelennor Fields, it's easy to say, Eowyn's disobedience was ok because everything turned out fine. But she didn't know this at the time. Her motives are baffling to say the least and I think this area could have possibly been investigated a bit further.

On balance, without the benefit of the hindsight, I have to give the debate to the Guild of Periaur. I would like to add though I was very dissappointed in the conduct of some members. Considering Periaur claimed to have nothing to debate about! - they did very well. But I do feel this behaviour, the time wasting and jaw wagging which followed, disadvantaged the Tolkienologists somewhat.

I shall just go run and hide for about a week to let the dust settle!

[Lhunithiliel]

Since Round 3 of the Tournament has already started , would the judges appointed for this debate finish their job, so that we can move on?

[Arvedui]

I have been pondering about this debate ever since the first post, and have finally made up my mind.

The GoT decided that Eowyn was right in disobeying the King, and through Mrs. Maggott came off with a good start.

The Tolkienologists claimed that:
1) King Theoden in fact did not issue any order.
2) Any way, Eowyn had done what she was told to do.
3) Eowyn saved the day, by killing the Lord of the Nazgûl.
4) Aragorn "knew" that Eowyn and Merry were going to Gondor, as he requested that Merry should be garbed for battle.
5) The People of Rohan were safe without Eowyn, as the King had left 4000 riders at home, and these had their own leaders
6) Eowyn was bound by the oath of Eorl.
7) Eowyn was fit and capable of going to war.
8) Eowyn was bored, everyone she had ever loved was away at war, and Aragorn, her desire, was seemingly without a hope.
9) It was pre-ordained.

Against this, the Periaur claimed the following:
1) A King don't need to issue any orders. King Theoden stated that Lady Eowyn will govern the folk in my stead.
2) As a consequence of this, Eowyn had not done as she was told to do.
3) It was Merry that caused that the Lord of Nazgûl could be killed.
4) Aragorn simply made sure that Merry was issued with the garb he needed in case battle would come, and if Aragorn 'knew' that Eowyn/Merry were going to Gondor, then he would have done more to be sure that this would happen.
5) 4000 soldiers was not enough, when they were leaderless
6) The Oath of Eorl only applied to the King and his heir Eomer.
7) She went to war because of a death-wish.
8) That death-wish was because she could not have Aragorn.
9) If it was pre-ordained, then there was no free-will involved, and there would be no right or wrong.

After this, there was some back and forth with the teams throwing quotes at eachother.

So. What was my impression of all this?

I thought at first that the Periaur had a point about the effect of Eowyn not being there to lead the People of Rohan, as said in this from snaga1:
Firstly 4,000 might be adequate, barely, but they really aren’t half as effective without their leader. Eowyn was the appointed leader, and although the eored’s left behind would have their own leaders, who would take overall charge? It would be undecided, and therefore there would be misunderstanding, chaos and mistakes.
This seemed very right in my mind, but IMO, it did not turn down this from Anamatar:Throughout Tolkien kings and princes go to war. Rohan is not an exception. Not only was there the ride of Eorl and the coming to Gondor’s aid, but Eomer left Rohan to full out war in the Fourth Age, helping Aragorn (another example of a king riding to war) in the south.
At least not until this was brought to the table by snaga1:
You demand to know how important Eowyn is. Important: she has the task of leadership which you believe can be cast aside. Not more important than the King: she can't arbitarily ignore his wishes. Get it? Probably not... you should answer your own question. How important is she? You think she is so important she can overrule the king!
And this:
Something that overrules the commonsense that leaders do not abandon their people in secret.

I also think snaga settled the business with the Oath of Eorl:
The Oath of Eorl falls on the heir of Eorl. That was Theoden, not Eowyn. The whole point about being an heir is that there is only one! So Theoden has to decide how to discharge the Oath. He did that… by bring 6,000 of his best warriors. It really doesn’t matter if you think he should, under the wording of the Oath, brought more. Its certainly not for Eowyn to overrule him.
And:
The heir can be only one person, when it comes to the Kingship. Theoden is the heir of Eorl... Gosh even your own quote proves it: his heir is Eomer. Get that: not Eomer and Eowyn! Just Eomer.

Now, the Periaur tried to argue that the result of Eowyn's disobeyance should not be taken into consideration. That she killed the Lord of the Nazgûl had nothing to say. IMO, the Tolkienologists had the strongest arguments here, and what she accomplished on the Fields of Pelennor must be a part of the reasoning. Although it was the sword of Merry that broke the spell, it was Eowyn that gave the final blow. The Periaur speculated about remaining women in Gondor, and even this one from snaga1:Who knows what other instruments of fate Iluvatar could have chosen?
Sorry, half-olds. That point goes to the GoT.

The point about Aragorn's foreknowledge was IMO, a weak point from the start, but it was not to well answered by the Periaur either, so a draw on that one.

The pre-ordainment business ws settled by Aulë in his final post:
No, Eowyn was never prophecised to kill the Witch-King. It was prophecised that no Man would kill him.

The final point that settled the business for me, was the point concerning the so-called death-wish of Eowyn.
Both teams were making equal points until this came along:
Snaga has already done that; I agree with his argument that Éowyn's choice was based only on self-centered reasons. She wanted a glorious death, because she thought she could not get what she needed to make her happy: the love of a great man (Aragorn)

I have tried my best to keep my mind on the debate itself, and not on the quarrel that went along. Even though the Periaur caused a lot of noise, the Tolkienologists don't really have a clean record to show forth either.
And to accuse snaga of ridiculing Lhun is an exaggeration. Take a close look, and you will see that Lhun started going down that line.

To sum it up: My vote goes to the Periaur.

[reem]

four out of five judges voted for Periaur. i guess we'll move on to the third part now then?
reem

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by reem
err..GG, if 'impudent' was directed at me, i hope i don't deserve it!!
anyway, you might not have lost at all, i am only one judge of many and they still haven't given their view on the matter.
anyway, if what i have decided seems somewhat unjust i think that the fact that this is my first time judging should mellow anyones' anoyance with me. but i stand by what i have siad. and now let's just see what my fellow judges have to say about the teams' performance.
reem
I wonder why you think I meant you?!!
Anyway.Congratulations to the winners.If the judges say so the GoP should have been the team which performed better.

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
Anyway.Congratulations to the winners.If the judges say so the GoP should have been the team which performed better.
Oh, G-G! Don't make me laugh!!!
***and yet laughs out loud***

[Arvedui]

I am going away for the coming week, so I won't be able to sum it all up before I am leaving, as Glorfindel1187 still haven't posted his vote.
But rest assured: he is working on it.

Again: thanks to both of the teams for all their effort. I thought you both did very well. Good luck in the next debate, I see that both of you have got some very interesting topics.


Lhun: You have a loose cannon on deck. Maybe you should fix it in its right place? Or is it a part of the Guild's tactics?

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Arvedui

Lhun: You have a loose cannon on deck. Maybe you should fix it in its right place? Or is it a part of the Guild's tactics? I'm not sure I have understood this, Arvedui.
Anyway, if it refers to my behaviour, it's personal and not binding the guild in any way.
Besides, I will not allow myself to use whatever humour in my future participations in any debate, because it seems to cause problems.

[Arvedui]

Let me rephrase that: Your Guild has a loose cannon on deck. Not you personally. I was referring to G-G.
Sorry. Didn't see that one:(

Besides, I will not allow myself to use whatever humour in my future participations in any debate, because it seems to cause problems.

Irony and sarcasm is hard to get just right when writing. When speaking, we can alter the tone of our voices, so as to make sure that what we really mean, comes through.

As I am somewhat sarcastic myself, I caught your tone in the debate. Others didn't. And that is when the tone hardened a bit. Personally, I think it spices the debate a little. But others obviously disagree.

Again: Good luck against those Scholars.

[Lhunithiliel]

I still can't understand the phrase "a loose cannon on deck" right.:confused: :o
Can you paraphrase ? I can't understand its meaning.
Or...is it about G-G's comments?:confused:

[Arvedui]

The phrase comes from the old warships.
Can you imagine what happened on deck, if one of the cannons went loose, and started rolling around on the deck? Especially in battle, and when there were some waves?

Yes, it is about Gil-Galad's comments. Not only in this thread.

[Lhunithiliel]

Ah! This is what I thought....Just wanted to be sure...

Anyway, we couldn't possibly expect everyone to be the same, could we?
G-G is just a young wild soul, which explains his reactions. But he's never been offensive to anyone.
There are people on this board who express themselves in a MUCH MORE unpleasant way - offensive, sarcastic-to-hurt, aggressive..... These are the people to take care about. But nobody does! And they are let with the freedom to feel and act like the "masters of the place"....

****shrugs shoulders****

[Arvedui]

***Shrugging too***;)

But if you think that there are people whoose behaviour can go on unnoticed, then there is this option in the bottom of each post: Report this post to a Moderator.

Report it, and explain why you think it deserves extra attention. I can assure you that it will be given the attention you seem to ask for.
But he's never been offensive to anyone.
That is not up to you to decide, but the person(s) he is adressing. And in this case (the judging), he is definately balancing on a very narrow wire between being angry and offensive. At least the way I read it.
If the judges say so the GoP should have been the team which performed better.
What can I say!?The First Round was a total mess if we are talking about judges.The Second Round is a PARODY!!

[Eriol]

Well, if the rules come into effect as they are drafted now, the host will have disciplinary powers over this kind of behavior (whether by Gil-Galad or by anyone else), as well as over any kind of misconduct.

So shrugging won't be the only recourse ;)

I quote here the relevant portions of the rules:

3. DUTIES OF THE HOST
h) To deal out penalties, in accordance with Rule 9.

8. RULES OF CONDUCT IN THE DEBATE
b) Sarcasm and irony are accepted, and perhaps even encouraged ; as long as they are directed to the arguments, and not to the people involved;
c) No posts in the debating thread shall be made in an attempt to influence the judges, either by the debating members or by other members of any Guild; the Judging thread shall be a place in which opinions are set out as simply as possible, and only the Judges shall expound on their reasons for a vote;
d) Any and all “bashings” of any participant (Judges or Host or Members) outside the respective Guild of the person posting the “bashing” shall be subject to penalties according to Rule 9; the provision that a post inside the Guild is exempt of penalty does not apply to directly-related threads (Debate, Judging);
e) All members participating directly in the debate shall be held up to the strictest conditions of courtesy and good sportsmanship;

9. PENALTIES IN THE DEBATE
a) Breach of any of the above rules, and particularly breaches of the Rules of Conduct (Rule 8), shall be subject to penalty;
b) The Host of the Debate is the person in charge of dealing out penalties – no penalty shall be given without his assent;

Of course, this is just a Tournament procedure, and a breach of the TTF rules of conduct (like personal attacks) is still subject to the Moderators.

I think it quite likely that both Guilds would have been blessed with a Warning (at least) if these rules were in effect... :(.

Which, of course, means that perhaps the rules would have prevented it.

[Gil-Galad]

Arvedui,once I told you I don't want to offend anyone.I just say what I'm thinking cause I'm not a hypocritical person.
I said what I think without wishing to offend someone.If somebody felt offended I'm sorry.
But,first of all Arvedui,I believe you should talk about these things with me,
PERSONALLY ,not discussing it with others,cause I can see you are talking about me.
At least you can get my msn............
peace.

[Scatha]

As Glorfindel1187 has left the forum and put me in charge of the Guild, I shall be his replacement for the judging in this here debate.

After spending quite some time reading through both the debate, the discussion and the complaints, I have come to my conclusion for this debate.

Seeing as this vote will not change the outcome, but certainly will be counted in the total score, I will place my vote to be a draw.

Both teams made excellent posts, which were countered by the opponent, until things started to get ugly. Frankly, I think the arguements were taken too far and the mood was allowed to deteriorate too far, without interference by it's host. (no offense meant, just stating my view)

In light of the unusual turn of events within this debate, a draw should have been the only logical outcome of this debate.

[Arvedui]

Gil-Galad:

You are right, I should have contacted you personally.
I didn't, and I was wrong in taking this matter to this thread, or in public anyway.

Unfortunately, I can do no more than say:

I am sorry.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Arvedui
Gil-Galad:

You are right, I should have contacted you personally.
I didn't, and I was wrong in taking this matter to this thread, or in public anyway.

Unfortunately, I can do no more than say:

I am sorry.

Yes,it was a confusing situation.Anyway.
Arvedui,I'm sorry too for all the mess.But the good poin is that everything is ok now.