Debate Tournament - Round 3: Outcasts vs. OiE

[Snaga]

Here is the thread for the third round of the Debating Tournament, which will start on Sunday 15th June.:)

Can the two teams assemble on the starting grid... or at least post who is taking part please.

The topic is chosen and approved... but I will keep that up my sleeve for now.:D

The judges are:

Scatha - Elves/Dwarves
Eledhwen - Tolkienologists
Nenya Evenstar - Scholars
Ciryaher - neutral

and of course myself from the Periaur.

[Nóm]

GoO Team:

Nóm
Sarah
The-Elf-Herself
YayGollum

If another outcast shows up wanting to debate, YayGollum will give up his place.

[Turgon]

The Ost-in-Edhil team is as follows:

Ancalagon,
Chymaera,
Chrysophalax,
Turgon.

[Snaga]

Thanks to both teams.

I have delved deep into a rich but oft overlooked text for our question. And here it is:

From 'The Hobbit':

'Was Bilbo right to offer the Arkenstone of Thrain to Bard?'

The Outcasts will make the opening post....

[Ancalagon]

Excellent, more Dwarves:(

Snaga, Chymaera has agreed to fill our final spot...Chymaera aka 'Ghost!':D

[Snaga]

Thanks Anc...

Dwarves? A hobbit and Man, I thought...;)

[Ancalagon]

...A Manbbit?

Anyhoo, when are the home team going to get this debate on the road or does this one go ever on aswell;)

[chrysophalax]

And we have which side??

[Snaga]

You have to wait to see which side the Outcasts choose: they are the home team. If you spot any Outcasts around, you could remind them to make their opening post! I believe you speak to one of their team quite often.;)

[Nóm]

Bilbo was wrong to offer the Arkenstone to Bard because that was an action with ill effects that could/should have been forseen by him, and there was a better course of action that Bilbo could have thought to take.

Bilbo could have figured that Thorin's foes keeping the Arkenstone from him, and demanding treasure for it's return, would not sit well with Thorin, and would result in the sort of thing that it ended up resulting in.

Thorin had two things on his mind: 1) Finding the Arkenstone 2) Dealing with his emenies. Finding his beloved jewel in the hands of those enemies would be a terrible blow to him and would only anger him which would cause more stubborn actions.

Thorin says to the dwarves while searching the treasure for the Arkenstone, that he'll be avenged for any who finds it and witholds it. It is clearly the withholding that he will avenge, he surely wouldn't mind the finding of it. How would Thorin react if this were withheld by his foes of all people, and a price that he was already dead set againt paying was demanded for it? Anger and resentment, of course.

Bilbo knew how dwarves were, and could have safely assumed that Thorin, with Dain's people on the way, might have decided to do excactly what they did decide to do: fight the people of Bard and Thranduil for the Arkenstone. There was always a chance Thorin would have done this and Bilbo must have known it. It was Bilbo handing the stone over that increased Thorin's bad feelings towards his foes hastend the initiation of battle between the dwarves and the men and elves.

And not least of all this was wrong of Bilbo, because it was a bad plan since Bilbo aimed to go back to the Mountain, and doing so after giving the Arkenstone away damn near got him killed. Bilbo knew he was putting him self in danger in doing this, and he did not know Gandalf would be their to save him.

Bilbo's intention was to buy peace. He should have offered his share of the treasure, in the form of silver and gold, to the people of Bard, and then perhaps snuck back to the mountain and pretend to have found the Arkenstone, and then in Thorin's joy, inform Thorin of his plans for his own share. At worst Bard and Thranduil would have waited in skepticism and Thorin would have thought him a fool.

[chrysophalax]

"Bilbo's intention was to buy peace." I couldn't have said it better myself Nom! This was indeed the intention of this most unlikely of adventurers, someone who valued peace and normalcy as any self-respecting Hobbit would.

Well did he know that Thorin would most likely hate him for using this most coveted of treasures, yet for the sake of peace he was willing to risk their friendship and possibly even more should Thorin have proven totally unreasonable.

To say that his action was wrong would be to ask him him to violate his own sense of right and justice. The fact that he chose to risk that much in order to bring peace shows a person of great character and selflessness. Add to this the aact that his offer brought about the desired effect ...how then could his action could construed as wrong?

[Nóm]

Well did he know that Thorin would most likely hate him for using this most coveted of treasures, yet for the sake of peace he was willing to risk their friendship and possibly even more should Thorin have proven totally unreasonable.

Not only did he risk his own life, but he must have known that he could damage the already dangerous situation between the dwarves and men. He risked making a very likely battle even more likely and the enemies more bitter. Handing over the Arkenstone to Thorin's foes was wrong because it ran a big risk of defeating Bilbo's purpose, considering it had a good chance of making the situation worse by causing exactly what Bilbo was taking the actions to prevent.

Bilbo wanted peace and happiness for everyone. He attempted to accomplish this by having Thorin forced into doing what he so stubbornly refused to do. That is no way to keep peace, and satisfy everyone. It is even worse, when we see what he should and could have done instead: Offer his treasure in metals, or gems other than the Arkenstone, to Bard.

He should have done this instead because it is just as easy to do and the chances of it yeilding the desired results is much better.

The fact that he chose to risk that much in order to bring peace shows a person of great character and selflessness.
Bilbo was of great character, and he was selfless and this is all the more reason he should offered to give up his treasure in the first place.

Add to this the aact that his offer brought about the desired effect ...how then could his action could construed as wrong?

By chance, things did work out okay. However, this was in spite of the ill result of Bilbo's action in giving away the Arkenstone. The means by which the good ending came about, were not those that Bilbo had planned. They came about because of things Bilbo could not have forseen. That is why his choice was not the best one only because things happend to work out anyhow.

Who knows how much beter things might have worked out had Bilbo taken the actions that GoO suggests he should have? But based on what Bilbo knew and should/could have figured, his action was wrong.

To say that his action was wrong would be to ask him him to violate his own sense of right and justice.

I rather think of it as asking Bilbo to have thought a little more, so that he would come up with a better plan. One that he himself would surely have felt better about. Even Bilbo had doubts about the action he took, knowing deep down that he had no right to the Arkenstone, and later calling himself a fool because of the mess he started with the Arkenstone.

Bilbo took an action that ran a big risk that he should have and could have forseen, rather than another more effective action, that would have better served his purpose.

[YayGollum]

Was the evil thief Bilbo Baggins right to offer the Arkenstone of Thrain to Bard? I don't get why you'd think he was. It's now considered a nice thing to take what you know your friend wants because of some sentimental type value it has for the guy? I did not know that. It sounds especially crazy to me since he gave the thing to someone that Thorin wasn't a big fan of. Or are you mostly saying that the evil thief Bilbo Baggins was a great guy because he thought he was doing something that was for everyone's good? Hm. How was that? He didn't accomplish anything by it. Everything was resolved because of the Battle of Five Armies. If that didn't happen and the evil thief Bilbo Baggins still tossed the Arkenstone at Bard, Dain would have shown up and all kinds of good guys would kill each other. If that didn't happen and the evil thief Bilbo Baggins didn't toss the Arkenstone at Bard, they wouldn't be so evil to each other. Noone had been betrayed.

[Chymaera]

I must say that Bilbo was correct in giving the Arkenstone to Bard.

We must look at the situation as Bilbo saw things to understand why he did what he did.

Bilbo had been the savior of the dwarves and learned to act independently ever since Gandalf had left their company.

He had saved them from the spiders and from the Elven halls. He understood that they needed Thorin's key when the secret door revealed itself on Durin's Day. And he had faced the Dragon lived to tell the tale.

But Bilbo had remembered the words of the Smaug:
'I don't know if it has occurred to you that, even if you could steal the gold bit by bit - a matter of a hundred years or so - you could not get it very far? Not much use on the mountain-side? Not much use in the forest? Bless me! Had you never thought of the catch? A fourteenth share, I suppose, or something like it, those are the terms, eh? But what about delivery? What about cartage? What about armed guards and tolls?' And Smaug laughed aloud. He had a wicked and wily heart, and his guesses were not far out.
The Hobbit: Inside Information

This is what Bilbo was thinking about when he came across the Arkenstone. He knew what it was and what it meant to Thorin, but at the time he had no intention not to give it to him. He was just saving it until an opportune moment.

When they heard that the Dragon was dead from Roäc the Raven, Bilbo heard all of what the Bird had to say:
'Your own wisdom must decide your course; but thirteen is a small remnant of the great folk of Durin that once dwelt here, and now scattered far. If you will listen to my councel, you will not trust the Master of the Lake-men, but rather him who had shot the dragon with his bow. Bard is he, of the race of Dale, of the line of Girion; he is a grim man but true. We would see peace once more among dwarves and men and elves after the long desolation; but it may cost you in gold. I have spoken.
The Hobbit: The Gathering of the Clouds

Now when the Elves and the Lake-men came to the Mountain-gates, Bard came as spokesman:
'I am Bard, and by my hand was the dragon slain and your treasure delivered. Is that not a matter that concerns you? Moreover I am by right descent the heir of Girion of Dale, and in your hoard is mingled much of the wealth of his halls and towns, which of old Smaug stole. Is not that a matter of which we may speak? Further n his last battle Smaug destroyed the dwellings of Esgaroth, and I am yet the servant of their Master. I would speak for him and ask whether you have thought for the sorrow and misery of his people. They aided you in your distress, and in recompense you have thus far brought ruin only, though doubtless undesigned'

Now these words were fair and true, if proudly and grimly spoken; and Bilbo thought that Thorin would at once admit what justice was in them, He did not,....
....But also he did not reckon with the power that gold has upon which a dragon has long brooded, nor with dwarven hearts.
The Hobbit: The Gathering of the Clouds

Now for Bilbo the adventure was over once the dragon had been slain. And everyone was settling in for a long siege and a great deal of bloodshed. This most definitely was not part of anything that Bilbo had signed up for!

Yes, Bilbo took a risk. He had to give the Arkenstone to Bard, because it gave Bard the leverage that he needed to talk some sense into Thorin, before the gathering armies clashed.

Remember the councel of Roäc

The armies were coming and Bilbo knew it he could not forsee any other way even Bombur when talking to Bilbo admitted that Thorin was being stiff-necked.

The risk was worth it.

[Nóm]

by OiE
We must look at the situation as Bilbo saw things to understand why he did what he did.
Okay...
by OiE
Bilbo had been the savior of the dwarves and learned to act independently ever since Gandalf had left their company.

He had saved them from the spiders and from the Elven halls. He understood that they needed Thorin's key when the secret door revealed itself on Durin's Day. And he had faced the Dragon lived to tell the tale.
Agree.
This is what Bilbo was thinking about when he came across the Arkenstone. He knew what it was and what it meant to Thorin, but at the time he had no intention not to give it to him. He was just saving it until an opportune moment.
He did not aim to keep the stone forever, but just what moment was he waiting for? He had no reason to think there was going to come a time when he would need to have that stone.

We claim that he pocketed it for it's beauty and regreted that he would have to part with it. This was likely due to the influence of the One Ring. We know it had the effect right from the beginning of causing such an honest hobbit to lie, which was so out of character that it made Gandalf wonder.

Bilbo finds the stone:
The Hobbit
Suddenly Bilbo's arm went towards it drawn by its enchantment. His small hand would not close about it, for it was a large and heavy gem; but he lifted it, shut his eyes, and out it in his deepend pocket.
Drawn by its enchantment. This was an urge on the part of Bilbo... it was without real reason. Why did he shut his eyes? I'm no phsycologist, but this must have been done because he didn't feel right.

continued:
The Hobbit
"Now I am a burglar indeed!"' thought he. "But I suppose I must tell the dwarves about it--some time. They did say I could pick and choose my own share; and I think I would choose this, if they took all the rest!" All the same he had an uncomfortable feeling that the picking and choosing had not really been meant to include this marvellous gem, and that trouble would yet come of it.

He felt like a genuine burglar for this. Now for Bilbo to do such a thing that he felt bad about, is out of character, and again this points to the One Ring. But even if not, it can not be denied that Bilbo was taken by it's beauty and acted out of greed against his own morals. he had 'an uncomfortable feeling' that 'trouble would yet come of it'.
And later on after trouble did come of it... Bilbo tells himself: 'You are a fool, Bilbo Baggins, and you made a great mess of that business with the Arkenstone...' In Hindsight Bilbo thought he was a fool for what he did.

But it sounds to me that he had no good motive in keeping this Arkenstone, and if he was waiting for the right moment, that moment would have to have been when he at last found the strength to hand it over to Thorin, so his keeping it was only done out of his inablity to part with it.

by OiE
When they heard that the Dragon was dead from Roäc the Raven, Bilbo heard all of what the Bird had to say:

Now let's look at the words of Roac again...

'Your own wisdom must decide your course; but thirteen is a small remnant of the great folk of Durin that once dwelt here, and now scattered far. If you will listen to my councel, you will not trust the Master of the Lake-men, but rather him who had shot the dragon with his bow. Bard is he, of the race of Dale, of the line of Girion; he is a grim man but true.'

So Bilbo should trust to Bard, because trouble is brewing.

'We would see peace once more among dwarves and men and elves after the long desolation; but it may cost you in gold.'

Peace may cost Bilbo some gold. Sounds to me that Roac was hinting that Bilbo should offer his part of the treasure, rather than give away Thorin's jewel to be used in attempt to force Thorin into handing over treasure to Bard.

The course of action that GoO suggests Bilbo should have thought to take, and could have thought to take, would have required trusting to Bard and paying in Gold. Roac, if we assume he was right and knew what he was talking about, must have known what Bilbo should have done. Roac's words can easily be interpeted as hinting at what GoO suggests Bilbo should have done, and I dare say the words are more indicative of this than the action Bilbo did take. Too bad Bilbo didn't see this. Agian, perhaps due to the Ring, and perhaps due to his being worried about war and tired of stuck in the mountain with the dwarves like the cram in his throat.
The Hobbit
...he did not reckon with the power that gold has upon which a dragon has long brooded, nor with dwarven hearts.

Bilbo should have reckon'd this. He saw the way the dwarves behaved at the mountain of treasure, heard the way Thorin spoke of the Arkenstone, and knew how stubborn Thorin was. If Bilbo had thought about these things enough he would have concluded that giving the stone to Bard would only make matters worse.

by OiE
Now for Bilbo the adventure was over once the dragon had been slain. And everyone was settling in for a long siege and a great deal of bloodshed. This most definitely was not part of anything that Bilbo had signed up for!
No it wasn't... and Bilbo did want out of the situation. Giving up the Arkenstone was not a better to way to get out of this situation than was offering to give up his treasure. Again we come to a factor in Bilbo's mistaken decision. He was uncomfortable, worried about battle, and had the most powerful evil artifact in Middle-earth, which happend to specialize in having an evil influence on it's keeper.

Yes, Bilbo took a risk. He had to give the Arkenstone to Bard, because it gave Bard the leverage that he needed to talk some sense into Thorin, before the gathering armies clashed.
But it did not give Bard the chance to talk sense into Thorin. Not only that, but based on what Bilbo had seen he should have figured this would be the case, and have not taken that action.
The armies were coming and Bilbo knew it he could not forsee any other way even Bombur when talking to Bilbo admitted that Thorin was being stiff-necked.

He either did not see another way, in which case he failed to consider everything properly. Or saw another way and dismissed it, in which case he was mistaken and took the wrong action.

The risk was worth it.
Not when there was a better way. Heck, doing nothing at all would have been no worse than what Bilbo did considering what his actions were likely to cause and that this could have been forseen.

[chrysophalax]

Shoulda, coulda,woulda...

The fact remains that deep down, Bilbo was not o'er-come by lust for the gem, nor indeed was he bereft of his plain Hobbit-sense. Had he been truly played upon by the Ring this early on, he never would have listened to the wise council of Roac, nor to the innate wisdom of his own heart.

At bottom, Bilbo is not a thief, nor a cheat. His character was quick-witted and bold, despite the fact that he himself was unaware of these facts at first. All people when put to the test, finally reach the point where their true mettle is tested. Giving Bard the Arkenstone was Bilbo's defining moment. He flew in the face of convention, for who among us would act with such bravery when faced with the seeming betrayal of a comrade, fighting your own desire to hang on to a priceless object and the whispered words of a cunning Dragon?

The handing over of the Arkenstone proved to be a pivotal deed not only for the ultimate outcome of the war, but for Bilbo himself, though at the time it grieved him. The only thing he could do was hope he had done the right thing and, in the end, he was justified, for not only was the battle of Five Armies a success, but Bilbo did not lose Thorin's friendship or respect. He retained the ever-lasting friendship of the other Dwarves as well, something that would not have happened had they perceived him to be a traitor.

[Nóm]

The fact remains that deep down, Bilbo was not o'er-come by lust for the gem, nor indeed was he bereft of his plain Hobbit-sense.

He wasn't completely bereft of his sense, but his judgement was not tops. We just showed that Bilbo did not pocket the Arkenstone and keep it from Thorin for the reason that he felt there would come some special moment where he would have to use it, but rather we say that he kept it because of it's beauty and his inability to hand it over quite yet (but I think this matters little in this arguement since we not using it to further our arguement, but only metioned it to counter a claim by OiE which wouldn't have given much weight to your arguement as it was used anyhow). We say the Ring might have been an influence in this, and why not? It had already influenced Bilbo.

Had he been truly played upon by the Ring this early on, he never would have listened to the wise council of Roac, nor to the innate wisdom of his own heart.
While it did not have complete control of him (evident by his good motives and kind actions), it did have an effect on him, as is evident by his lies about how he came by the Ring.

At bottom, Bilbo is not a thief, nor a cheat.
I wont argue that Bilbo was a theif (I guess that is Yay's job? :D Though I think it is not relevant), but he felt like a burglar when he pocketed that Arkenstone with his eyes shut.

His character was quick-witted and bold, despite the fact that he himself was unaware of these facts at first.

He was bold, but he erred.
All people when put to the test, finally reach the point where their true mettle is tested. Giving Bard the Arkenstone was Bilbo's defining moment. He flew in the face of convention...

He did fly in the face of convention, but this does not mean his action was not wrong. Had he offered to give up his treasure, we could still say that thing about him.

... for who among us would act with such bravery when faced with the seeming betrayal of a comrade, fighting your own desire to hang on to a priceless object and the whispered words of a cunning Dragon?
I don't know who among us would, and while his act was not unworthy of some admiration, it was still wrong because he could have forseen the bad results of it, and known the risk was not worth it, and have even come up with a better plan, such as the one GoO suggests.

The handing over of the Arkenstone proved to be a pivotal deed not only for the ultimate outcome of the war, but for Bilbo himself, though at the time it grieved him.
The relatively happy ending did not happen as a result of Bilbo's actions. The Goblins and Wargs showing up was a pivotal thing. What Bilbo aimed to accomplish in handing the Arkenstone over to Thorin's enemies, was not accomplished by his action. His action made matters worse between Bard and Thorin. Lucky the Goblins and Gandalf, both unforseen by Bilbo, brought these enemies together, and luckily the Eagles and Beorn showed up. Those are the things which caused the relatively happy ending, and none of them were part of Bilbo's plan. Bilbo's plan was a bad one.

How exactly was this pivotal for Bilbo himself, and would offering his treasure not have been the same?

I do not judge if his action was right or wrong based on the outcome, but based on how good his decision was. One can do something very wrong, and that bad action can end up contributing to something good, but this does not make that bad action right, the way I see it.

The only thing he could do was hope he had done the right thing...

After the act, yes. But before it, he could have thought of a better plan.

...and, in the end, he was justified, for not only was the battle of Five Armies a success, but Bilbo did not lose Thorin's friendship or respect.
The end can not justify him since he did not know what the end would be. His motives, knowledge, and actions at the time can be the only justification.

He retained the ever-lasting friendship of the other Dwarves as well, something that would not have happened had they perceived him to be a traitor.
The dwarves must have come to see that Bilbo had good motives, but his plan was still a poor one.

Shoulda, coulda,woulda...
We can't say someone did the wrong thing without naming what they could or should have done instead, unless we just say that he should have done nothing, which I dare say would have been just as well if not better than what he did do.

[YayGollum]

Yikes! This thing is going by too fast! oh well. Let me see here. You people say that we should think about the evil thief Bilbo Baggins' intentions. I don't see why. What's wrong with just talking about if his actions were right or not? oh well. I already said why they were wrong. I don't get why you people think that what he did was right. What good came out of his actions? We've pointed out the bad stuff that happened. We've pointed out that the Battle of Five Armies resolved pretty much everything. Right? Is there something I'm missing?

[Chymaera]

The claimed influence of the ring on Bilbo's actions is one point that I find hard to swallow.

First Nóm says that the ring caused Bilbo to lie about the Arkenstone and pursumablely make wrong decisions and then she says the ring didn't have total control.

The ring would only look after itself. The ring was searching for Sauron. If the ring had any influences on Bilbo he would have been walking south, as soon as he could get away from Gandalf and the Dwarves (he had ample opportunity for that before they entered Mirkwood).


Following the Outcasts argument Bilbo either has to offer Bard a big heap of gold to Bard instead of the Arkenstone or do absolutely nothing and let fate take its course.


If Bilbo had a big heap of gold for Bard he would have given it to him (as Smaug said that would have taken years). The Arkenstone was much more efficient to move.

If Bilbo had to just do nothing then maybe he should have done that right from the beginning. When Gandalf first came and talked to him at Bag End. That would have solved all of Bilbo's problems. Just sit at home and do nothing and trust that everything would work out.

Bilbo had Stubborn dwarves (with re-enforcement on the way) and Homeless Men and Elves to deal with, and no obvious solution to a peaceful solution.

Bilbo had his doubts about his actions BUT he still carried through with them because he believed that they would put a halt to the aggression.

If Bilbo had no faith in his actions he would not have returned to the mountain and relieved Bombur on guard duty!

Hindsight is an amazing thing, and all things can be seen and judged from this view. But Bilbo did not have this luxury and he had to act on the information that he had. Therefore to the best of his ability Bilbo was correct in his actions.

And he gave the Arkenstone to Bard because he thought he was right and we will never know if things would gone along the same path if he had not done as he had done.

The Orcs and the Wargs could have come to the battle and found three armies fighting amongst themselves and could have had a grand time slaughtering the survivors and then where would we be.

Bilbo followed Roäc's words to Thorin because Thorin refused to listen. Thorin could have offered gold to Bard and there would have been peace, but Thorin's stubbornness changed the situation and Bilbo had only the Arkenstone to offer to Bard. As Roäc said Bard realizing what was being offered to him used the gem as a hostage for peace and the generator of friendly talks between the Dwarves and Men.

That the talks did not come until after the battles does not lessen the attempts of Bilbo and Bard at coming to a peaceful solution.

[Nóm]

I can't make a full reply at the moment but I must get this point before it goes too far.

OiE
The claimed influence of the ring on Bilbo's actions is one point that I find hard to swallow.
Can you deny the Ring influenced it's keepers?

OiE
First Nóm says that the ring caused Bilbo to lie about the Arkenstone and pursumablely make wrong decisions...
I never said Bilbo lied about the Arkenstone. I did say:

GoO
We claim that he pocketed it for it's beauty and regreted that he would have to part with it. This was likely due to the influence of the One Ring. We know it had the effect right from the beginning of causing such an honest hobbit to lie, which was so out of character that it made Gandalf wonder.
I said likely due to the Ring that Bilbo was moved to stick the Arkenstone in his pocket (with his eyes shut while feeling like a burglar, mind you) and regretted that he would have to part with it.

But, even if the Ring was not a factor in this, we still claim that he kept it for it's beauty and not looking forward to handing it over.

Part in bold was reference to him lying about how he got the One Ring (not lies about the Arkenstone!), and the uneasy feeling this gave to Gandalf, as he tells Frodo in Bag End. Sorry for being unclear... though I did later say:
GoO
While it did not have complete control of him (evident by his good motives and kind actions), it did have an effect on him, as is evident by his lies about how he came by the Ring.

I don't see how this can be argued with. The Ring could have had some influence over him without fully controlling him. So:

OiE
...and then she says the ring didn't have total control.

There is certainly no contradiction, if this is what you are driving at?

But I think the arguement surrounding the possibility of the Ring having played a part in Bilbo keeping the Arkenstone, is a not much relevant, and not necessary to our main arguements. All this was to counter your statement that Bilbo was waiting for the right moment. And we asked you, just what moment was that?

But even if you are right and he was waiting for a moment when he could put the Arkenstone to good use, this does not change that he made the wrong decision in giving it to Bard.

[Ancalagon]

Originally posted by Chymaera

Hindsight is an amazing thing, and all things can be seen and judged from this view. But Bilbo did not have this luxury and he had to act on the information that he had. Therefore to the best of his ability Bilbo was correct in his actions.


Let us not forget foresight either Chymaera my good friend!
"'You are quite right,' I said. 'If I had no other purposes, I should not be helping you at all. Great as your affairs may seem to you, they are only a small strand in the great web. I am concerned with many strands. But that should make my advice more weighty, not less.' I spoke at last with great heat. 'Listen to me, Thorin Oakenshield !' I said. 'If this hobbit goes with you, you will succeed. If not, you will fail. A foresight is on me, and I am warning you.' Unfinished Tales
If Gandalf had the wisdom and vision to send Bilbo upon this mission, then so too was his own foresight in the matter that Bilbo would ultimately prove his worth. " Go your own ways, Thorin Oakenshield, if you will. But if you flout my advice, you will walk to disaster. And you will get neither counsel nor aid from me again until the Shadow falls on you. And curb your pride and your greed, or you will fall at the end of whatever path you take, though your hands be full of gold.' Unfinished Tales I wonder then would the Guild of Outcasts cast dispersions on Gandalf and his choice in Bilbo? Why does Gandalf applaud Bilbo's action when he produces the Arkenstone to Bard and the Elven King?'Well done! Mr Baggins!' he said, clapping Bilbo on the back. 'There is always more about you than anyone expects!' It was Gandalf.The Hobbit Surely by your reckoning, even Gandalf must be mistaken? That the choice Bilbo made was ill-thought out and detrimental! Bilbo's action were both brave and shrewd, for to him this action would allow for bargaining and hopefully a settlement. Gandalf recognised this and applauded him for it! Let us not forget, Bilbo returns to face the music, suffer the wrath of Thorin and company for his actions, and all along this was the plan; deliver a tool for bargaining and rush back into the jaws of the Dragon...so to speak!

[chrysophalax]

Far be it from me to defend the evil nasssty Dragon-slayer (rrrrrrrrrrr)! Yet in this case it must be done...Bilbo knows that trouble is brewing, he also knows that he has the wherewithal to to procure said help via the Arkenstone. Now who better to give it to than the Man of the Hour, Bard! (rrrrrrr)!

He has just slain (sniff) Smaug all by himself, the teeming metropolis of Dale is in love with the guy, so.....who ya gonna call?? The answer is obvious...Bard has the guts, the proven ability and the people's respect and so they rally to him and in doing so, Bilbo's decision is justified. A piece of shrewd, on-your-feet thinking by Master Baggins.

[YayGollum]

Woah! Yikes! About the One Ring messing with the evil thief Bilbo Baggins ---> Do you people really think that the One Ring couldn't have messed with him a little? Especially since that The Hobbit book says that the Arkenstone was already a creepy thing that messed with people's brains. oh well.

What's all of that craziness about things being better if the evil thief Bilbo Baggins just stayed at home? I hope that was just a bunch of evil sarcasm. oh well.

Am I right in assuming that this Chymaera person isn't a big Dwarf fan? Probably. *sniff* Sure, they're stubborn. You don't get their good reason for it? Ack! That has nothing to do with the rightness of the evil thief Bilbo Baggins' actions.

Does the fact that the evil thief Bilbo Baggins thought he was doing the right thing mean that he definitely was? Or the fact that the evil torturer Gandalf thought that, too? What makes you think that the evil torturer was always right? Doesn't make much sense to me. Saying that just because the evil torturer Gandalf thought that the evil thief Bilbo Baggins did the right thing doesn't prove anything. How's about you people prove that it was the right thing? Do you really expect people to trust this one guy's opinions when he never even explains them?

All of that foresight stuff has nothing to do with the Arkenstone. Obviously, the evil thief Bilbo Baggins helped out during the little quest. The quotes say nothing about his decision to toss the Arkenstone at Bard.

Also, what's that craziness about Bard? The good reason for the evil thief Bilbo Baggins to toss the Arkenstone at the guy was ---> The guy killed a dragon? I don't get it. You talk about trouble brewing. Why toss what he knows his good friend Thorin wants at a guy that's making trouble for them? Ack! Please tell me what good came out of the evil thief Bilbo Baggins tossing the Arkenstone at Bard!

The elves were homeless? sorry. I just had to say that.

[Nóm]

OiE
If the ring had any influences on Bilbo he would have been walking south, as soon as he could get away from Gandalf and the Dwarves (he had ample opportunity for that before they entered Mirkwood).

Since Bilbo never in all his years with the Ring 'walked south', then by your reasoning, this means the Ring had no influences on him ever.

But again, I think this aspect about the chance of the Ring influencing him is very small. It could be one of the many factors that caused Bilbo to make a relatively poor decision. It remains that the decision was poor, and this is what counts.
OiE
Following the Outcasts argument Bilbo either has to offer Bard a big heap of gold to Bard instead of the Arkenstone or do absolutely nothing and let fate take its course.
Offering his share of the treasure in silver and gold, would have been a better plan.

You do not agree though. Let's look at why:


OiE
If Bilbo had a big heap of gold for Bard he would have given it to him (as Smaug said that would have taken years).
Smaug and Bilbo were playing games with eachother, and anyone with a 14th of that treasure would easily have the means to pay for transportation of it.
But Smaug said it would have taken years for Bilbo to get his treasure if sneeking it out bit by bit as a burglar, not giving it to Bard with no dragon that has to be snuck past.
But Bilbo need not have taken his 14th out to Bard that night, only to have informed Bard about the plan, and give his word.
The Hobbit, The Clouds Burst
"Now so hasty! said Bard. "We will give you until tomorrow. At noon we will return, and see if you have brought from the hoard the portion that is to be set against the stone.
Bard suggested a day and this seems reasonable since no one objected with cries of 'That will take years!', but if it genuinely required more time if Bilbo was giving away his own in gold and silver, Bard would have waited longer.

And:
OiE
The Arkenstone was much more efficient to move.
Why though?
Physically easier to hand over, but not more effcient only because of this.
It was not efficient since it did not have the desired results, was likely not to, and ran a big risk of making things worse and most of all it was wrong because this could have been forseen by Bilbo.

OiE
If Bilbo had to just do nothing then maybe he should have done that right from the beginning. When Gandalf first came and talked to him at Bag End. That would have solved all of Bilbo's problems. Just sit at home and do nothing and trust that everything would work out.
Well GoO suggests he should have done something, but all the same even if he had done nothing at that moment (and this is not the same as saying he should have done nothing all along!) things might have worked out just as well.

After the false agreement of Thorin regarding the Arkenstone, Bard went to the gate the following day and there was no treasure set out for him, and arrows were fired at his people... the battle was on!

Now why were these arrows fired? Because the dwarves planned to man the mountain and fight to get the stone back.

If instead of Bard having the Stone and the dwarves planning to attack, Bilbo had done what GoO suggests, then Bard would have showed up to collect his treasure from Bilbo. Thorin would have had no reason to attack, being happy to have regained the mountain, have the Arkenstone, and get rid of these men that the foolish hobbit saw fit to pay.

OiE
Bilbo had Stubborn dwarves (with re-enforcement on the way) and Homeless Men and Elves to deal with, and no obvious solution to a peaceful solution.
The best solution was not obvious to Bilbo since he apparantly never thought of it. Too bad he didn't do something like GoO suggests, but luckily things worked out in spite of his bad attempt at a solution and his wrong move.

OiE
Bilbo had his doubts about his actions BUT he still carried through with them because he believed that they would put a halt to the aggression.
This was kind of Bilbo but a bad decision all the same. I wont damn his motives or purpose, but his 'solution' was wrong.

If Bilbo had no faith in his actions he would not have returned to the mountain and relieved Bombur on guard duty!
Bilbo obviously thought his plan could work, but this doesn't mean it ever had any good chance of working, or that he should not have forseen the trouble it was likely to cause.

OiE
Hindsight is an amazing thing, and all things can be seen and judged from this view.
In hindsight Bilbo called himself a fool because of the mess he made with the Arkenstone.
In Hindsight we may say that a thing good or bad (or right or wrong), contributed to a good outcome, or that a relatively good outcome came anyhow... but that alone does not make the decision right, even in hindsight. We must judge a decision based on what was kown at the time of it, since things that happen after could not have been a part of that decision.

OiE
But Bilbo did not have this luxury and he had to act on the information that he had.
GoO explained earlier that Bilbo knew enough that he should have figured his decision was not the best one, and have thought up another.

OiE
Therefore to the best of his ability Bilbo was correct in his actions.
Bilbo wasn't stupid like other hobbits, and he could have thought of something better but did not. As GoO pointed out earlier, his judgement was not at its best at that moment. He was uncomfortable, worried about war, and wanted badly to have this all over with in peace. This would have been a stress on his mind and is probably (and perhaps along with the Ring!) a big part of the reason Bilbo did not think of a better plan.

OiE
And he gave the Arkenstone to Bard because he thought he was right and we will never know if things would gone along the same path if he had not done as he had done.
We can not be sure of how things would have gone if Bilbo had offered his treasure as GoO suggests, but based on what Bilbo knew at the time of his decision and action, this would have been a better choice to take since it ran a smaller risk of failure.

The battle started because Thorin wanted to get his stone back.

So this:
OiE
The Orcs and the Wargs could have come to the battle and found three armies fighting amongst themselves and could have had a grand time slaughtering the survivors and then where would we be.
Most unlikely if Bard never had the stone and was going to collect from Bilbo not Thorin.

OiE
Bilbo followed Roäc's words to Thorin because Thorin refused to listen. Thorin could have offered gold to Bard and there would have been peace, but Thorin's stubbornness changed the situation...
Thorin was wrong, but that is not what we are arguing, and it does not make Bilbo's wrong actions any more right. All this did was cause a situation were Bilbo felt he must do soemthing about it. He just went with the wrong course of action.
OiE
... and Bilbo had only the Arkenstone to offer to Bard.

This is not true.

A 14th of that treasure belonged to Bilbo, and Bilbo could have gave his word. And Bard the kind of guy who would have gave Bilbo the opportunity to keep that word. Bard would not have initiated war after he got a promise from Bilbo that he would get him some gold.

OiE
As Roäc said Bard realizing what was being offered to him used the gem as a hostage for peace and the generator of friendly talks between the Dwarves and Men.
It didn't generate friendly talks.

It lead to a false deal on the part of Thorin and a plan to attack and go back on his word... pretty serious stuff there, backing out of a deal.

But what is important here is that Bilbo had all the information needed to know this decision was bad, but failed to see it. That is important because it is what made his decision bad, and his action wrong... not the bad that happend after (Thorin's plan to attack Bard and back out of the deal) - but the fact that Bilbo should have known this was likely to happen.

OiE
That the talks did not come until after the battles does not lessen the attempts of Bilbo and Bard at coming to a peaceful solution.
But it remains that the peace did not come as a direct result of Bilbo's action, nor did it work out anything like Bilbo had planned, but the opposite. That is why his decision was bad.

[Nóm]

OiE
Let us not forget foresight either Chymaera my good friend!


"'You are quite right,' I said. 'If I had no other purposes, I should not be helping you at all. Great as your affairs may seem to you, they are only a small strand in the great web. I am concerned with many strands. But that should make my advice more weighty, not less.' I spoke at last with great heat. 'Listen to me, Thorin Oakenshield !' I said. 'If this hobbit goes with you, you will succeed. If not, you will fail. A foresight is on me, and I am warning you.' Unfinished Tales


If Gandalf had the wisdom and vision to send Bilbo upon this mission, then so too was his own foresight in the matter that Bilbo would ultimately prove his worth.

Gandalf was foresighted, and Bilbo did prove his worth along the way, however, his bit with the Arkenstone was a poor decision. This poor decision does not undo all the excellent things Bilbo did, so Gandalf was right.

Gandalf says things will work out if Bilbo goes, he does not say, nor does it have to follow, that this is because Bilbo will make the best decision in every circumstance.

OiE

" Go your own ways, Thorin Oakenshield, if you will. But if you flout my advice, you will walk to disaster. And you will get neither counsel nor aid from me again until the Shadow falls on you. And curb your pride and your greed, or you will fall at the end of whatever path you take, though your hands be full of gold.' Unfinished Tales


I wonder then would the Guild of Outcasts cast dispersions on Gandalf and his choice in Bilbo?

But that need not be done to show that Bilbo's decision with the Arkenstone was a bad one and therefore wrong. This error of Bilbo is not enough to make Gandalf's chioce of Bilbo bad.

OiE
Why does Gandalf applaud Bilbo's action when he produces the Arkenstone to Bard and the Elven King?

Surely a good question, and I wondered why it hadn't been brought up yet.
To one such as Gandalf, an Ainu capable of foresight, an action that is not best according to what the person who took that action could have done, may be seen as an element in the bigger scheme of things. Gandalf apparantly thought things would work out okay even though Bilbo could have made a much better decision to take a different action.

But mostly because Bilbo did such generous and brave thing, Gandalf applauded him... who wouldn't applaud his effort and thoughts for the good of all? But I didn't really have to say that, because Anc, you said so yourself:
OiE, Ancalagon
Bilbo's action were both brave and shrewd, for to him this action would allow for bargaining and hopefully a settlement. Gandalf recognised this and applauded him for it!
Gandalf applauded the brave and somewhat shrewd action that was taken to allow the bargaining that would hopefully bring a peaceful ending.

Good intentions, there is no doubt, and even relatively cunning. But it was still not the best course of action given what Bilbo knew at the time the decision was made and action taken.

OiE

'Well done! Mr Baggins!' he said, clapping Bilbo on the back. 'There is always more about you than anyone expects!' It was Gandalf.The Hobbit


Surely by your reckoning, even Gandalf must be mistaken?

It was still a relatively 'well done' thing on the part of Bilbo, for the same reason that he applauded it. But relatively well done or not, it was not the best possible action, and was a bad decision relative to what Bilbo could have done instead. A thing can be well done without having been the best, and since Bilbo's move wasn't the best and he should have known it and came up with a better plan, he was wrong.

Gandalf was not mistaken that there was more about Bilbo than people knew or expected.
But, this does not mean every decision Bilbo would make would be best.


OiE
That the choice Bilbo made was ill-thought out and detrimental!

It was ill-thought out. Whether detrimental or not was yet to be seen at the time of his decision and action. However, based on what Bilbo knew it ran a huge risk of being detrimental, while other course actions did not, and it is for this reason that his decision and action was wrong.

Thorin made the deal then backed on of it. Bilbo could have known this might happen, and that the dwarves might go to battle over it, especially knowing Dain was on his way.

There was always a chance, given the stubborness of Thorin, and his value of the Arkenstone, that Thorin would have refused to bargain with Bard.

What would Bard have done then? Eventualy fought anyhow, or took his business elsewhere. Taking business elsewhere would only cause more trouble, as Thorin would come after Bard for selling the stone to someone else, and whoever he sold it to would have been attacked by the dwarves as well.

These things were big possibilities and Bilbo could have known it.

So why take that risk? Especially when offering his own treasure would have avoided that risk. It is a better plan around, and should certianly have been tried first.

Let us not forget, Bilbo returns to face the music, suffer the wrath of Thorin and company for his actions, and all along this was the plan; deliver a tool for bargaining and rush back into the jaws of the Dragon...so to speak!
Admirable of Bilbo, and I love him dearly, but it was not the best action he could have taken. This does not make his action in giving away the Arkenstone right.

OiE
Far be it from me to defend the evil nasssty Dragon-slayer (rrrrrrrrrrr)! Yet in this case it must be done...Bilbo knows that trouble is brewing, he also knows that he has the wherewithal to to procure said help via the Arkenstone.
He thought, not knew, that he could solve the situation with his action, but was mistaken since the situation was solved because of other things, things unforseen by him. As it turned out, as could have been guessed, Thorin did not handle the Arkenstone business well.

OiE
He has just slain (sniff) Smaug all by himself, the teeming metropolis of Dale is in love with the guy, so.....who ya gonna call?? The answer is obvious...Bard has the guts, the proven ability and the people's respect and so they rally to him and in doing so, Bilbo's decision is justified.
Earlier OiE said it was justified by the fact that the outcome of it all was relatively good.
Now is the claim is that it was justified because Bard was the right person to get the Arkenstone since he was a good guy?
I can not agree if so. The action was still the wrong one because of the risk and Bilbo should have known better.
Also, Bard had no right to the Arkenstone in specific, it belonged to Thorin.

If you mean that Bard could have been trusted with the stone, then perhaps so... sure looks like a good guy. But this is more reason Bilbo could have made an agreement to give him his share of the treasure.

OiE
A piece of shrewd, on-your-feet thinking by Master Baggins.
Not shrewd enough though.

[Snaga]

Just a gentle reminder that this debate will run until 4:52PM GMT tomorrow (Tuesday) due to the slight delay in starting.

I may not be able to get on to call a halt to the debate, but I will rely on both sides to stick to the deadline, and get their concluding posts done in time.:)

OK ... keep going...:D

[Chymaera]

Gandalf patted Bilbo on the back after he gave the Arkenstone to Bard and applauded him. He did NOT say very brave of you Mr. Baggins, but it was a silly and stupid thing that you did.

Gandalf has never been shy about criticizing Hobbits when they have done stupid things.

E.g. When Gandalf called Pippin a Fool of a Took in the Mines of Moria.

To YayGollum: If you think that I am not a big Dwarf fan I would point you to my last debate in round 2. That shows how I feel about dwarves very nicely.:D

The whole problem was that there was a curse on the treasure of Erebor left by Smaug, and this caused Thorin to act the why that he did and that caused Bilbo to act the why that he did.

"You are not making a very splendid figure of a King under the Mountain," said Gandalf. "But things may change yet."

"They may indeed," said Thorin. And already, so strong was the bewilderment of the treasure upon him, he was pondering whether by the help of Dain he might recapture the Arkenstone and withhold the share of the reward.

The Hobbit: The Clouds Burst
You see Thorin was under the Curse of Smaug. Just the presents of a Dragon for a long time in one place cast a shadow of evil that will take time to shake off. This is why Thorin was not acting reasonably. And this too might have effected Bilbo too. Thorin was acting stubborn and greedy;) and Bilbo started acting sensible and practical

Therefore Bilbo's actions might have seemed wrong to the members of the Guild of Outcast teams, but overall what Bilbo did was right. Maybe in the end the arrival of the Orcs was the only thing that would have overpowered the curse and that seems to be what happened.


one last quote:
So began the battle that NONE had expected; and it was called the Battle of the Five Armies, and it was very terrible.

The Hobbit: The Clouds Burst
If Bilbo had known of the Orcs coming Maybe he would have followed the Guild of Outcast advice and sat on his hands, but as the quote above states no one knew(except Gandalf and he wasn't talking;))

[The-Elf-Herself]

Gandalf patted Bilbo on the back after he gave the Arkenstone to Bard and applauded him. He did NOT say very brave of you Mr. Baggins, but it was a silly and stupid thing that you did.

Gandalf has never been shy about criticizing Hobbits when they have done stupid things.

E.g. When Gandalf called Pippin a Fool of a Took in the Mines of Moria.


Yes, but this was different. When Gandalf called Pippin a Fool of a Took in Moria, it was because his actions helped alert some of the other inhabitants of Moria to their presence. In this case, even if Gandalf had not approved of Bilbo's specific actions, it wouldn't make sense for him to criticize him for it, considering that although a different decision might have brought about a better ending, the present course of action didn't exactly cause the annihilation of the beings present. Hindsight it 20/20, does it really make sense to go up and say “Hey Bilbo, pretty good job, but you should have used the treasure, might have worked out much better”? I don’t think so. Gandalf was smart enoughto know that since it turned out okay(not as good as it could have been, as we're arguing, but okay), then it was better not to bring up that stuff, since they couldn’t change the past.

The whole problem was that there was a curse on the treasure of Erebor left by Smaug, and this caused Thorin to act the why that he did and that caused Bilbo to act the why that he did.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You are not making a very splendid figure of a King under the Mountain," said Gandalf. "But things may change yet."

"They may indeed," said Thorin. And already, so strong was the bewilderment of the treasure upon him, he was pondering whether by the help of Dain he might recapture the Arkenstone and withhold the share of the reward.

The Hobbit: The Clouds Burst
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You see Thorin was under the Curse of Smaug. Just the presents of a Dragon for a long time in one place cast a shadow of evil that will take time to shake off. This is why Thorin was not acting reasonably. And this too might have effected Bilbo too. Thorin was acting stubborn and greedy and Bilbo started acting sensible and practical


So, you're saying the thing that had a bad influence on Thorin was a radically good influence on Bilbo? Why? According to that logic, Bilbo would have been a foolish character before this, but as we see from his planned escape from the Elvenking that he in fact was a clever fellow long before that. Otherwise, as your own team said, why would Gandalf had insisted he come along? He was a useful little hobbit, just not quite as clever as he could have been in the case of the Arkenstone.

Therefore Bilbo's actions might have seemed wrong to the members of the Guild of Outcast teams, but overall what Bilbo did was right.


This has already been refuted.

Maybe in the end the arrival of the Orcs was the only thing that would have overpowered the curse and that seems to be what happened.


Now who's talking in might-have-beens? The curse apparently didn't have that much of an effect on Bilbo, according to you it made him more practical: therefore, that's not an excuse for his err in judgement.

[Nóm]

If Bilbo had known of the Orcs coming Maybe he would have followed the Guild of Outcast advice and sat on his hands, but as the quote above states no one knew(except Gandalf and he wasn't talking;))

GoO suggests he offer to give up his treasure, not do nothing.

However, the action he did take, acording to what Bilbo knew at the time of his decision, was as bad if not worse than doing nothing.

Gandalf patted Bilbo on the back after he gave the Arkenstone to Bard and applauded him. He did NOT say very brave of you Mr. Baggins, but it was a silly and stupid thing that you did.

Gandalf has never been shy about criticizing Hobbits when they have done stupid things.
E.g. When Gandalf called Pippin a Fool of a Took in the Mines of Moria.

In addition to the points brought up by my team mate, I'd like to remind that there was a huge difference between the action of Bilbo and that of Pippin in Moria. That is the intentions and purpose behind the actions. Pippin had absolutely No reason to drop a stone other than childish curiosity and even the most foolish of hobbits should have known better, whereas Bilbo had great intentions in giving away the Arkenstone, and it was a plan that at first glance looked good.

One who makes sacrifice to do what he thinks right can not be rightly called "fool of a Baggins!'.


Therefore Bilbo's actions might have seemed wrong to the members of the Guild of Outcast teams, but overall what Bilbo did was right. Maybe in the end the arrival of the Orcs was the only thing that would have overpowered the curse and that seems to be what happened.

Let's see what this 'therefore' follows...
[quote]You see Thorin was under the Curse of Smaug. Just the presents of a Dragon for a long time in one place cast a shadow of evil that will take time to shake off. This is why Thorin was not acting reasonably. And this too might have effected Bilbo too. Thorin was acting stubborn and greedy;) and Bilbo started acting sensible and practical
Thorin's greed caused a situation where Bilbo had to find a solution.... therefore Bilbo's actions might seem wrong?
It is quite a leap, and I do not agree with it.

Bilbo's actions did not seem wrong because of that. Bilbo's action was wrong because it was dangerous and not worth the rsk he took while there was a better course of action to be taken instead.

You say what Bilbo did was right, but how was it right when it was such a bad idea? How right could it possably be when it had such a huge risk of making matters worse... (defeating it's own purpose, mind you!)...and he could have easily done someting much better?

Lets look at some points:

Gandalf said 'well done'.

Bilbo's move of handing the Arkenstone to Bard, was most likely (based on what was known to Bilbo) to have a bad result, even though he ment well.

Bilbo was smart enough, and knew enough to figure that this move would likely have those bad results.

GoO's suggestion has not been shown to be any worse than Bilbo's course of action.

No one has given any reason that GoO's suggestion would not have been the better course of action.

Conclusion: GoO's suggested course of action would have been the better thing for Bilbo to do.

Bilbo was wrong in giving away the stone because it was a bad idea! It was a bad idea with good intentions. Bad idea because of the huge risk it ran that should have been seen by Bilbo. There was a better way and he failed to see it. His action was wrong because of that.

Gandalf saying 'Well done' does not change that.

[Chymaera]

So what the Outcasts suggest instead of giving the Arkenstone to Bard is that Bilbo should have carted down hundreds of tons of gold and silver out of the mountain and over to Bard's camp in the dead of night and handed that to Bard. Without waking up the Dwarves! (The dwarves are not that heavy of sleepers)

The Arkenstone is much lighter and could be easily carried in Bilbo's pocket.:)

Bilbo claimed the Arkenstone as his own in his mind and he claimed it again to Thorin's face.

AND

Thorin accepted this claim (not gracefully, but he accepted it nonetheless).

When under stressful situations Hobbits always become more practical.

I have not seen any quote from the book stating that Bilbo could have done anything different then what he did.

Or that his actions were anything but correct.

Professor Tolkien was writing this story for his sons. If what Bilbo had done was wrong then would not Professor Tolkien not have made a point of pointing this out to his son's as something that they should not do?

[Nóm]

So what the Outcasts suggest instead of giving the Arkenstone to Bard is that Bilbo should have carted down hundreds of tons of gold and silver out of the mountain and over to Bard's camp in the dead of night and handed that to Bard. Without waking up the Dwarves! (The dwarves are not that heavy of sleepers)
Not so.

That is not what the Outcasts have suggested.

We say he should have offered his treasure to Bard, not that he need to sneek it all out to Bard in one night.

We suggested he give the Arkenstone to Thorin, and then inform Thorin of his plans to give away his treasure to Bard (so the treasure would not be handed over in secret). We suggested this in our opening post, and have since said nothing to contradict it, or imply otherwise.

The Arkenstone is much lighter and could be easily carried in Bilbo's pocket.
Bilbo's word would have been just as easy to carry.

Remember, if things had gone as Bilbo wanted, then much treasure would have had to be moved anyhow, so Bilbo giving his own share as we suggest would not change the amount of work to be done.


Bilbo claimed the Arkenstone as his own in his mind and he claimed it again to Thorin's face.

AND

Thorin accepted this claim (not gracefully, but he accepted it nonetheless).

But did he accept it? No, he didn't.

He never accepted that the Arkenstone was Bilbo's, he only made an agreement to hand over Bilbo's treasure for it, an agreement he backed out of, at that.

This is not acceptance.

Bilbo never claimed the Arkenstone, only used it as a rationalization... setting his share of the treasure against it. Had he claimed the stone for his own there would have been no share of his treasure to set against it. The stone itself would have been his treasure.
But even more telling his words in answer to Bard:

A Thief in the Night
"But how is it yours to give?" he asked at last with an effort.
"O well!" said the hobbit uncomfortably. "It isn't exactly; but, well, I am willing to let it stand against all my claim, don't you know.


I have not seen any quote from the book stating that Bilbo could have done anything different then what he did.

We don't have to be told that a character could have taken a different action, it is a given. Bilbo had freewill.

Or that his actions were anything but correct.
It doesn't have to be spelled out, or stated clearly that he was incorrect. We can see the error in his actions by looking at what he knew and should have been able to figure out. We also see that Bilbo felt like a fool what what he did.


Professor Tolkien was writing this story for his sons. If what Bilbo had done was wrong then would not Professor Tolkien not have made a point of pointing this out to his son's as something that they should not do?

In the case of something being morally wrong, or even 'evil', then I agree. However, what Bilbo did with the Arkenstone was not an 'evil' thing. What he did was an act of goodness, generosity and sacrifice, even though his action was the wrong one. We just point out that it was wrong for Bilbo to give away the stone because it was likely to make the matters that he was trying to solve, worse. The error was in Bilbo's judgement, or his failure to think of a better plan, not in Bilbo being a bad person. He's a good guy who did something wrong.

[YayGollum]

Well, I like to think that he was an evil thief for stealing what he knew Thorin had a sentimental value for. *sniff* Poor guy. Thorin is my favorite character in that book. Why did the evil thief Bilbo Baggins have to be so achingly evil?

You people have never said how it was a good thing to steal the Arkenstone and toss it at this human who's been threatening him and his friends. Or did I miss the good reason? Was it supposed to be some achingly obvious thing that never needed to be said? oh well. Please excuse me for needing things spelled out for me.

What have you people said to make us think why it might have been a good thing? You say that it was good because the evil torturer Gandalf said it was? I asked about that. You never answered me. Should we really believe everything this evil torturer says? Or was it just achingly obvious that he was right? Oh, that's me needing things spelled out again. sorry about that. You say that it was good because the evil thief Bilbo Baggins meant the thievery to be a good thing. Ack! There's me needing things spelled out yet again! He meant for it to be a good thing. I don't see the proof that it was a good thing.

Our proof that it was an achingly evil thing to do ---> Poor Thorin! The evil thief Bilbo Baggins knew that this guy wanted the thing. You people say that some creepy dragon spell was on him. Doesn't look like that to me. Where's the proof of that? All I've read about is an achingly cool Dwarf who's being stolen from by a guy he trusted. You can see how the Arkenstone (and maybe the One Ring, too) messed with the evil thief Bilbo Baggins' brain. Thorin didn't even get the chance to be messed with in the brain, so I don't get why you'd say that about the poor guy. How else was it evil? Well, we said that tossing the promise of a fourteenth of the treasure (with the evil torturer Gandalf who you people admire so much to back him up) would be even better. And the evil thief Bilbo Baggins wouldn't be getting the superly cool Thorin mad at him for stealing stuff.

[Ancalagon]

Originally posted by Nóm
In the case of something being morally wrong, or even 'evil', then I agree. However, what Bilbo did with the Arkenstone was not an 'evil' thing. What he did was an act of goodness, generosity and sacrifice, even though his action was the wrong one. We just point out that it was wrong for Bilbo to give away the stone because it was likely to make the matters that he was trying to solve, worse. The error was in Bilbo's judgement, or his failure to think of a better plan, not in Bilbo being a bad person. He's a good guy who did something wrong.

Let us take a look at Bilbo's judgement here and why it was an excellent decision! If we know Thorin had already formed an extremely high opinion of Mr Bilbo, who had saved the Dwarves from considerable evil over the duration of their journey on several occasions, then whether Thorin liked it or not, Bilbo had simply made another clever choice in trying to ensure conflict resolution. Ther Arkenstone was the ultimate bargaining tool in this potential conflict and Bilbo did not hesitate to spot an opportunity immediately, hence the reason he saw fit to give it away. Thorin had taken heart again hearing how the hobbit had rescued his companions from the spiders, and was determined once more not to ransom himself with promises to the king of a share in the treasure, until all hope of escaping in any other way had disappeared; until in fact the remarkable Mr Invisible Baggins (of whom he began to have a very high opinion indeed) had altogether failed to think of something cleverThe Hobbit Bilbo had proved himself worthy over the entire course of this journey, why then should this last act of cleverness surprise even the Outcasts? Well, I guess that is because you have chosen to argue this in a debate, whether or not you beleive your own arguements is another matter entirely!
Thorin is a stubborn dwarf, that we know for certain, his own pride gets in the way of his own better judgement. "So it was that the Quest of Erebor set out. I do not suppose that when it started Thorin had any real hope of destroying Smaug. There was no hope. Yet it happened. But alas! Thorin did not live to enjoy his triumph or his treasure. Pride and greed overcame him in spite of my warning." Unfinished Tales Bilbo served Thorin well, even if Thorin did not like his actions, deep in his heart he knew and understood them, though only coming to this realisation upon his death bed.'Farewell, good thief,' he said. 'I go now to the halls of waiting to sit beside my fathers, until the world is renewed. Since I leave now all gold and silver, and go where it is of little worth, I wish to part in friendship from you, and I would take back my words and deeds at the Gate.' Retracting his words was immensely significant, for he knew the truth of why Bilbo's actions were correct, that no jewl or gem is worth more than life itself, which it was Bilbo's intention to save;'No!' said Thorin. 'There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West. Some courage and some wisdom, blended in measure. If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. But sad or merry, I must leave it now. Farewell!' If one is blinded by their own Pride and Greed, then no action of Bilbo's other than the Arkenstone would have sufficed. You understand that any other part of the treasure would not have sufficed in this matter and the suggestion that Bilbo should offer his share other than the Arkenstone is frankly pathetic. Bilbo was the hero of this story, on every occasion he proved himself worthy, worth his share of the fortune for he worked hardest in the adventure, but conflict resolution with one such as Thorin takes drastic measures, using the Arkenstone was one such measure. Like it or not, he did entirely the right thing and ultimately Thorin forgave him, for he understood him. Now, why is that wrong?

[Nóm]

Let us take a look at Bilbo's judgement here and why it was an excellent decision!
I'll keep an eye open for that.
If we know Thorin had already formed an extremely high opinion of Mr Bilbo, who had saved the Dwarves from considerable evil over the duration of their journey on several occasions, then whether Thorin liked it or not, Bilbo had simply made another clever choice in trying to ensure conflict resolution.

Why clever?
Thorin's dislike of what Bilbo did is not what makes it the wrong action. That Bilbo should have known Thorin would not like it, is part of what does. And Bilbo did know Thorin would not like it, but he hoped it would work out all the same. Here is the problem: why should Bilbo have thought it would work? He was mistaken in thinking it would. Given what Bilbo knew, this was a bad decision... and wrong action.

How clever could it have been then? Not very.


Ther Arkenstone was the ultimate bargaining tool in this potential conflict and Bilbo did not hesitate to spot an opportunity immediately, hence the reason he saw fit to give it away.

The Arkenstone did not lead to a bargain, but a false agreement to bargain. Thorin backed out, as could have been guessed at. There was also the chance Thorin would not have even falsely agreed, and then what? Battle, or Bard going elsewhere to exchance this gem.

So, there was no good reason for Bilbo to give it away.

Bilbo had proved himself worthy over the entire course of this journey, why then should this last act of cleverness surprise even the Outcasts? Well, I guess that is because you have chosen to argue this in a debate, whether or not you beleive your own arguements is another matter entirely!
Yes, that is a matter that has no place here. :D

Still wondering how clever though...

Thorin is a stubborn dwarf, that we know for certain, his own pride gets in the way of his own better judgement.

"So it was that the Quest of Erebor set out. I do not suppose that when it started Thorin had any real hope of destroying Smaug. There was no hope. Yet it happened. But alas! Thorin did not live to enjoy his triumph or his treasure. Pride and greed overcame him in spite of my warning." Unfinished Tales

Bilbo served Thorin well, even if Thorin did not like his actions, deep in his heart he knew and understood them, though only coming to this realisation upon his death bed.

'Farewell, good thief,' he said. 'I go now to the halls of waiting to sit beside my fathers, until the world is renewed. Since I leave now all gold and silver, and go where it is of little worth, I wish to part in friendship from you, and I would take back my words and deeds at the Gate.'


Retracting his words was immensely significant, for he knew the truth of why Bilbo's actions were correct, that no jewl or gem is worth more than life itself, which it was Bilbo's intention to save;

He just came to understand the good movites and values of Bilbo. Bilbo's action would have only been correct had it been a good idea, and we have shown why it was not.

The only way Bilbo's plan would have worked is perhaps if Thorin had knew then what he learned in dying, but had he known those things at the time, there would have been no need to give away the stone because Thorin would have been willing to pay Bard all along.


'No!' said Thorin. 'There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West. Some courage and some wisdom, blended in measure. If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. But sad or merry, I must leave it now. Farewell!'


If one is blinded by their own Pride and Greed, then no action of Bilbo's other than the Arkenstone would have sufficed.

Sufficed for what? To Convince Thorin of Bilbo's good motives and values? Or something you have not said?

However, I see we agree about Thorin's ways. Bilbo knew these ways, and that is why he should have known giving the Arkenstone away was a bad move.

You understand that any other part of the treasure would not have sufficed in this matter and the suggestion that Bilbo should offer his share other than the Arkenstone is frankly pathetic.


How did his giving away the Arkenstone suffice? And in a way that giving up his treasure would not have??

I can not see it, and you did not say it.


...and the suggestion that Bilbo should offer his share other than the Arkenstone is frankly pathetic.
And this is why you think it was pathetic?...

Bilbo was the hero of this story, on every occasion he proved himself worthy, worth his share of the fortune for he worked hardest in the adventure, but conflict resolution with one such as Thorin takes drastic measures, using the Arkenstone was one such measure.

Pathetic because he had earned it? Or pathetic for a reason you did not give?

He had earened that treasure well, but he was willing to give it up.

Bilbo did not need, would/did not take, and was willing to part with a huge majority if not all of his share. So why not have done so earlier instead of giving away Thorin's stone?
Also keep in mind that had he done this, he would surely still have come out with as much as ended up going home with.

You say the resolution of this conflict would require drastic measures be taken, so it must be no bother to you that giving up his treasure would have been drastic? Still seeking why it is pathetic...

Like it or not, he did entirely the right thing and ultimately Thorin forgave him, for he understood him. Now, why is that wrong?
Why the right thing?
That it was the right thing is proven by Thorin later understanding Bilbo's motives and priorities and forgiving him for doing it?
In dying Thorin did come to understand Bilbo's motives, but this understanding of Bilbo's motives and values does not make the Arkenstone give-away a good idea.
Could Thorin's understanding be the mysterious thing sufficed for? No, the Arkenstone give-away did not suffice in this, only facing his own death sufficied to enlighten Thorin.

Now where is that look at why it was an excellent decision? Surely not because he was forgiven by a dying man who wished to part in friendship?

[Snaga]

OK Debate over.

I'll post the judging thread now.:)