Debate Tournament - Round 3: Periaur vs. Elves/Dwarves

[Beleg]

Greetings all.
I am looking forward to hosting a debate between the two respectable Debating Guilds of TTF; Periaur and Elves/Dwarves.

A Topic has allready been selected, approved and has been disclosed on 15th June 2003.

I would like to ask the both participating Guilds to post their teams here.

The topic is,

Published Silmarillion, Of the Silmaril's and Unrest of Noldor.
In those days, moreover, though the Valar knew indeed of the coming of Men that were to be, the Elves as yet knew naught of it; for Manwë had not revealed it to them

Given the circumstances, was Manwë correct in not revealing to the Elves, the forthcoming arrival of men?


The topic has been posted on 8:03 GMT.

The debate shall last for exactly seven days from the time of the first post.

Any complains about the topic should be sent before the posting of the first post.

Good day and debate on!

Edit: The debate started on 15-6-03, with the first post from the host guild, Periaur and will end on 22-6-03.

[The_Swordmaster]

The Guild of Dwarves/Elves team are as follows.

Bethelarien(captain)
The_Swordmaster
Scatha(vice-captain)
Omnipotent_elf

[Snaga]

The Periaur team is in fact a British Army tactical formation... be afraid!:D

Legolam .......aka 'The Lush'
Tookish Girl ..aka 'The Luvvie'
Legoman ......aka 'The Guitar God'
Snaga1 ........aka 'The Aggressive'

We can confidently say, that win, lose or draw, we will have drank more cups of tea than our opposition.;)

[Ancalagon]

Legolam .......aka 'The Lush'
Tookish Girl ..aka 'The Luvvie'
Legoman ......aka 'The Guitar God'
Snaga1 ........aka 'The Aggressive'

Hehe, cool! :D

[Snaga]

Thank you Beleg for an interesting topic.

I will make the opening post as soon as I've bought and read the Silmarillion. OK just kidding... as soon as I've decided what I think.;)

[Scatha]

Thanks for the topic indeed, Beleg.

Snaga, I will personally make sure you will get a handful for a reply. ;)

[Snaga]

Here is the opening post for the Periaur, who are surprised but honoured to be called 'a respectable debating guild'.;)

The topic...

Published Silmarillion, Of the Silmaril's and Unrest of Noldor.
In those days, moreover, though the Valar knew indeed of the coming of Men that were to be, the Elves as yet knew naught of it; for Manwë had not revealed it to them
Given the circumstances, was Manwë correct in not revealing to the Elves, the forthcoming arrival of men?

The Periaur will be demonstrating that Manwe was not correct.

In some debates the first posts have been lengthy affairs. But in this case I will attempt to state our position in a fairly concise and digestible form, and see if our opponents can inflict any damage.

Firstly, lets just establish what those circumstances were.

The elves had awoken by Lake Cuivienen, and been discovered by Orome. He had discovered that they were troubled by the shadow of Morgoth, and so the Valar had decided to do two things.

(1) They fought Morgoth, broke Utumno and captured him. After judgement he was imprisoned 'for three ages'.
(2) They led the elves to Valinor. Not all came of course, but many did.

By the time that this quote occurs in the text, the great march of the elves is over. The elves in Valinor have grown in knowledge and strength. The other key factor is that Morgoth has been release from captivity, and is in Valinor feigning to be a reformed character.

Manwe is deceived:For Manwe was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew that in the beginning, in the thought of Iluvatar, Melkor had been even as he; and he saw not to the bottom of Melkors heart, and did not perceive that all love had departed from him forever. But Ulmo was not deceived, and Tulkas clenched his hands whenever he saw Melkor his foe go by; for if Tulkas is slow to wrath he is also slow to forget. But they obeyed the judgement of Manwe; for those who defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel.

Using this time of proximity with the elves, Morgoth is clever. In those days, moreover, though the Valar knew indeed of the coming of Men that were to be, the Elves as yet knew naught of it; for Manwë had not revealed it to them. But Melkor spoke to them in secret of Mortal Men, seeing how the silence of the Valar might be twisted to evil. Little he knew yet concerning Men, for engrossed in his own work he paid small heed to Third Theme of Iluvatar; but now whisper went among the elves that Manwe held them captive, so that Men might come and supplant them in the Kingdoms of Middle-Earth, for the Valar saw that they might more easily sway this short-lived and weaker race, defrauding the elves of the inheritance of Iluvatar. Small truth was there in this, and little have the Valar ever prevailed to sway the wills of Men; but many of the Noldor believed or half-believed the evil words.

Thus ere the Valar were aware, the peace of Valinor was poisoned.
Now I am not one to argue that the consequences of an action prove a decision necessarily right or wrong. The unexpected may happen, of course, and so to prove the case we have to ask ourselves firstly whether these ill-consequences were so much of a surprise. And secondly we need to consider whether there were other factors weighing heavily with Manwe that meant he was right to withhold this information.

On the first point, it is clear that Manwe had a blind-spot, but that equally he KNEW that others (Ulmo and Tulkas) disagreed. So he should have considered the possibility that Morgoth would revert to type.

Once you consider that possibility, it comes to this: what reason is there for NOT telling the elves about the coming of Men? I can't think of one. Keeping this knowledge from the elves DOES sound like dishonesty. Luckily I don't have to find a reason: I will leave that to the imagination of the Elves and Dwarves.:) But Morgoth used his imagination to come up with a bad reason, and it was utterly predictable that he would do so. Manwe failed to forsee this, because of his own blind-spot and because he failed to act on the warnings of his fellow Valar.

The result was the poisoning of the peace of Valinor. And that was the start of the slippery slope towards the rebellion of the Noldor.

So say the Periaur! What say the Dwarves and Elves?:)

[Scatha]

The Guild of Elves/Dwarves will try to establish that Manwe had made the correct choice, by not telling the elves of the coming of Man.

Once you consider that possibility, it comes to this: what reason is there for NOT telling the elves about the coming of Men? I can't think of one. Keeping this knowledge from the elves DOES sound like dishonesty. Luckily I don't have to find a reason: I will leave that to the imagination of the Elves and Dwarves.


Manwe did foresee trouble for the elves by the coming of Men, thus told them not of their coming. With Melkor's influence still roaming in Arda, where Men would awake, he tried to stop the elves from going there, thus trying to protect the elves from the influence of Melkor.


The result was the poisoning of the peace of Valinor. And that was the start of the slippery slope towards the rebellion of the Noldor.


The poisoning of Valinor was solely due to Melkor, not by Manwe's decision to keep the coming of Men from the elves. His only error lies in the fact that he allowed Melkor to roam among the elves of Valinor. He did not have a blind spot, like the Periaur aim to make us think, but even heeded the warningsigns by Ulmo and Tulkas.

[Snaga]

Originally posted by Scatha
Manwe did foresee trouble for the elves by the coming of Men, thus told them not of their coming. With Melkor's influence still roaming in Arda, where Men would awake, he tried to stop the elves from going there, thus trying to protect the elves from the influence of Melkor. But that isnt logical at all. If he WAS worried about Melkor, and wanted to protect the elves from his influence, why let him roam around in Valinor? Why let him converse freely with the elves?

But As the quote I gave before shows, Manwe thought that Melkor had reformed. This is not his reasoning at all.

Originally posted by Scatha
The poisoning of Valinor was solely due to Melkor, not by Manwe's decision to keep the coming of Men from the elves. His only error lies in the fact that he allowed Melkor to roam among the elves of Valinor. He did not have a blind spot, like the Periaur aim to make us think, but even heeded the warningsigns by Ulmo and Tulkas.So we agree it was a mistake to let Melkor wander freely, because it sowed seeds of evil amongst the elves. Yes, that was Melkor's doing... but Manwe gave him the opportunity. You say there is no blindspot but I gave a quote that proves the point. You say he heeded the warning signs... but you havent given any evidence to back that up. Is that because there isnt any, perhaps?:)

[omnipotent_elf]

On the first point, it is clear that Manwe had a blind-spot, but that equally he KNEW that others (Ulmo and Tulkas) disagreed. So he should have considered the possibility that Morgoth would revert to type

remember, heinsight (sp?) is a wonderfull thing, but mistakes do happen.

For Manwe was free from evil and could not comprehend it,

how can someone be held accountable for something when they cannot even comprehend it. He could not understand the concept of evil?

(2) They led the elves to Valinor. Not all came of course, but many did.

this is apathy on the part of the elves. The elves, a populous race, did not hold power at the time. Why should they know of something which could have caused panic. As Scatha rightly stated, Manwe did foresee trouble for the elves by the coming of Men, thus told them not of their coming. To save from panic, and generally to ensure the happy and well-being of the elvish people, it was right of Manwe not to tell of the coming of the man.

The overall result was the poisoning of the peace of Valinor. And that was the start of the slippery slope towards the rebellion of the Noldor. Peace is to the elves one of the most important aspects of their lives. To try and maintain that, Manwe did infact keep information from the elves. This is indeed a noble intention.Noble, in that he felt the peoples well-being more important then himself. As such given the circumstances, is indeed the correct one

Manwe, for reasons which are probably his own, did not trust the information with the elves. He obviously thought revealing the information would have caused more harm then good. If he didnt, he would have revealed it. So as the question asks, given the circumstances, manwe's descision, for him, would have been right.

But that isnt logical at all. If he WAS worried about Melkor, and wanted to protect the elves from his influence, why let him roam around in Valinor? Why let him converse freely with the elves?

ahh, but it is logical. If your loved ones were threatened with danger, you would try to prevent it. EVEN IF YOU DIDNT UNDERSTAND THE DANGER you would try to protect your loved ones from it. An unseen danger is indeed the worst kind.

Manwe did not understand evil, not being affected by it. Yet elves were. HE wanted to protect them, but this danger was unseen. He had no solid proof to prevent Melkor, just his own personal feelings. As such, he had no grounds to actually prevent Melkor from roaming in Valinor, and conversing with the elves.

[Legolam]

Time for my intervention I think …;) Sorry it's taken so long to post this. I couldn't get online yesterday and this might be a little late now. However, the points are still relevant.

Time for my intervention I think …;) I just wanted to highlight what Snaga said in a bit more detail. I don’t think the Elves/Dwarves team have really addressed any of the issues raised in it yet. Here’s the quote from the question:

In those days, moreover, though the Valar knew indeed of the coming of Men that were to be, the Elves as yet knew naught of it; for Manwe had not revealed it to them.

And the very next sentence in the Silmarillion:

But Melkor spoke to them in secret of Mortal men, seeing how the silence of the Valar might be twisted to evil.

So Melkor knew of the Valar’s decision not to tell the Elves in Valinor about the coming of men and twisted it to his own purpose. Perhaps if Manwe had been honest with the Elves (and, as Snaga points out, why shouldn’t he have been?), Melkor would have been denied the chance to sow these seeds of doubt in the Elves’ minds. But, I hear you ask, surely the Elves would have seen through this and were strong enough of mind to resist Melkor:

… but now the whisper went among the Elves that Manwe held them captive, so that Men might come and supplant them in the kingdoms of Middle-earth ... defrauding the Elves of the inheritance of Iluvatar.

So, because of Manwe’s failure to tell the Elves of the coming of Men, Melkor had the chance to corrupt the Elves against Men. He whispers in their ears that men were brought into this world to replace the First-born. What were the consequences of this?

…the peace of Valinor was poisoned

Look at the language Tolkien uses here. “Poisoned” conjures up images of betrayal, of incurable damage done. From such a tiny drop of poison as Manwe’s failure to tell the Elves of the coming of Men, comes the death of the Elves’ innocence and the end of peace in Valinor. For Feanor, arguably the proudest of the Elves and the one most likely to take offence at this perceived slight by Manwe, was the one most poisoned by Melkor’s whisperings. From this, the saga of the Silmarils, and all the hurt these brought to Middle Earth, unfolds.

So far, I have just mentioned the fate of the Elves. But what of Men? What consequences did Manwe’s decision have for them?

… they called them also … the Usurpers, the Strangers

So the Elves were already discriminating against Men, because of their ignorance of the race of Men, brought about by Manwe’s failure to tell them of the Second-born’s coming. In my opinion, this ignorance created a rift between the races, which was never fully healed, even by the Third Age and the passing of the last of the Elves into the West. Maybe if Manwe had explained to the Elves what exactly the nature of Men was … who knows?

~ The Lush xx

PS Just a small point from Omnipotent_Elf's post...

Manwe, for reasons which are probably his own, did not trust the information with the elves. He obviously thought revealing the information would have caused more harm then good

Maybe if you could give some theories on what "more harmful" thing than the poisoning of the peace of Valinor could have taken place had Manwe told the Elves of the coming of Men? I'd love to hear those ...

[Bethelarien]

And now it's my turn to butt in...;)

how can someone be held accountable for something when they cannot even comprehend it? He could not understand the concept of evil.
My teammate is exactly correct. Manwe was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew that in the beginning, in the thought of Iluvatar, Melkor had been even as he...
Therefore, Manwe had no concept of evil. He was entirely good. Jealousy is an evil; therefore, Manwe could not conceive of jealousy either. He wouldn't consider that the Elves would be jealous, because he didn't know what jealousy is. Do we hold small children responsible for things they do wrong, when they have no concept of what right or wrong is? No. Neither can Manwe be held responsible for the jealousy the Elves bore toward Men.

"My heart feels, and my wisdom tells me," said he, "that no great age of time will now elapse ere those other Children of Iluvatar, the fathers of the fathers of Men, do come into the world..." HoME v.1 "The Theft of Melko" [Manwe speaking to the Elves]

The Elves were told of the coming of Men.

[Snaga]

I think in fairness Beth, that we can discount that last quote. HoME 1 contains Tolkien's earliest writings, which were revised several times. In the published Silmarillion Manwe does tell the elves, so that quote doesnt disprove the question.

So let us continue...

Originally posted by Omnipotent_Elf
remember, heinsight (sp?) is a wonderfull thing, but mistakes do happen.Yes... and Manwe made it. I am glad we agree it was a mistake. Your admission that it is a mistake is a concession that it Manwe was not correct. That settles it... doesnt it?

I know you don't think so, so lets discuss what is NOT relevant to whether or not Manwe was correct.

Originally posted by Omnipotent_Elf
how can someone be held accountable for something when they cannot even comprehend it. He could not understand the concept of evil?Originally posted by Bethelarien
Do we hold small children responsible for things they do wrong, when they have no concept of what right or wrong is? No. Neither can Manwe be held responsible for the jealousy the Elves bore toward Men. Accountability is not at issue. Responsibility is not an issue. Blame is not at issue. People can mistakes without it reflecting on them. It is still a mistake. Example: a child has never been taught how to add up. You ask him/her what two plus two equals. He/she says five. Is the child wrong? Of course! Is the child to blame? Nope. Is the child less wrong, because its not to blame? Unfortunately not.

Of course, I am sure I am not alone in thinking that comparing Manwe with a child is somewhat bizarre!

Originally posted by Omnipotent_Elf
To try and maintain that, Manwe did infact keep information from the elves. This is indeed a noble intention.Noble, in that he felt the peoples well-being more important then himself.Neither is intention relevant to correctness. If I am trying to find my way to Hobbiton, and take a wrong turn and end up in Mordor, I still made a mistake. I can't say... but it was correct because I meant to get to Hobbiton.

In fact of course, its precisely the gap between his intentions and the outcome that prove his decision to be incorrect.

[legoman]

Just to add a little point to our arguement (mainly cos I havent yet and I want to have had some input :) )

You seem to be arguing that because Manwe didn't know certain facts his decision in its self is correct, which, as I think snaga1 has duely argued, that is not the case, but anyway, your arguement still relies on the fact that Manwe chose to not tell the elves and you claim this was right because he didn't know Melkor was evil.

But so what, as you said yourself 'hindsight is a wonderful thing', but if he didn't know Melkor was evil why did he still not tell the elves of the coming of man. You don't seem to have answered that point, which was put forth by snaga1 at the beginning.

Did he actually think that not telling the Elves that a large race of people not totally unlike themselves was coming later, a race which he'd known about for ages, was a good idea?
I can't see how this could be, surely it would be better for them to know about men so they could, as Legolam (kindof) pointed out, understand their situation better.

As far as I can see the decision was not a good one whether Melkor was evil or not, it just so happens that he was, so things turned out very nasty indeed.

~ the guitar (I don't like to use the word god to describe myself but...)

[Beleg]

Only four hours left.

[Snaga]

As the time elapses let us review all that has been said.

I opened the debate by saying, on behalf of the Periaur, that Manwe was wrong not to tell the Elves of the coming of Men. I showed that the consequence of this was that Melkor was able to tell the Elves himself, and twist this around to sow distrust. And I showed that Tolkien says that the peace of Valinor was poisoned as a result.

In response, Scatha makes three points.
(1) That Manwe forsees trouble for elves as a result of the coming of Men.
From the Published Silmarillion: Of Men
Yet it is told that ere long they met Dark Elves in many places, and were befriended by them; and Men became the companions and disciples in their childhood of these ancient folk, wanderers of the Elven-race who never set out upon the paths to Valinor, and knew the Valar only as a rumour and a distant name.So it seems there is no problem between Elves and Men, and actually they will in great probability get on very well, if they are allowed to.
(2) That Manwe tries to stop the elves going back to Middle Earth, because he fears the influence of Melkor.

We’ll return to this point…

(3) That the poisoning of Valinor was Melkor’s fault and not Manwe’s.

Of course it was Melkor’s doing…. But Manwe failed to prevent it. Lets face it: the whole purpose of bringing them to Valinor was to protect them from evil. But they let Melkor roam freely, and gave him the opportunity to spread lies and falsehoods, by withholding this knowledge.

We need to accept that this was an exception. The Valar were happy to instruct and teach the elves, in most matters.

From the Published Silmarillion: Of Eldamar
the Noldor were most beloved of Aule, and he and his people often came amongst them. Great became their knowledge and their skill…
From the Published Silmarillion: Of Eldamar
Here must be told how the Teleri came at last to the land of Aman…. Therefore Ulmo, submitting to the will of the Valar, sent Osse their friend, and he though grieving taught them the art of ship-building…
From the Published Silmarillion: Of Eldamar
…but Celegorm went rather to the house of Orome, and there he got great knowledge of birds and beasts, and all their tongues he knew.. So we can see that the Valar were happy to impart knowledge as a rule, but decided to withhold knowledge of Men to the Elves.

Next we have the reply by Omnipotent Elf who tells us:
remember, heinsight (sp?) is a wonderfull thing, but mistakes do happen. And of course this is the admission that it was indeed a mistake not to tell the Elves about the coming of Men.

Of course the point is true: we are judging this with hindsight. But how else would you judge if you did the right thing, except by the outcome?

Why should they know of something which could have caused panic. he asks. But why would the Elves panic? The elves are not at all given to panic! I struggle to recall an instance of elvish panic in the whole history of Middle-Earth. I certainly don’t believe that the elves would have panicked upon being told of the coming of Men. Curiosity is possible, but panic? Hardly! If panic was a possible reaction, you can be pretty sure that Morgoth would have tried to induce it.

He continues: Peace is to the elves one of the most important aspects of their lives. To try and maintain that, Manwe did infact keep information from the elves. This is indeed a noble intention.Noble, in that he felt the peoples well-being more important then himself. But intent is not at issue. The Periaur do not say that Manwe was ill-intentioned. The fact that Manwe meant to maintain the peace of Valinor is actually highly damning. Why? Because the outcome was the exact opposite. His intentions were laudable, but withholding knowledge did not achieve it.

In the next post Legolam goes on to show how in fact the decision leads to the estrangement of the two kindreds. Whereas in Middle Earth, the Avari who didn’t get exposed to this, are getting on very well with Men.

Bethelarian extends the point of Manwe’s inability to understand evil to the question of the jealousy that Melkor instills into the hearts of the elves. Manwe had no concept of evil. He was entirely good. Jealousy is an evil; therefore, Manwe could not conceive of jealousy either. He wouldn't consider that the Elves would be jealous, because he didn't know what jealousy is.But this really doesn’t help. Again it tells us WHY Manwe got it wrong, it doesn’t prove him right. It means he didn’t consider the possible consequences of his actions, it means he thought he was doing the right thing. But its results that count here… the result was the poisoning of the peace of Valinor.

So finally we return to the question of wishing to prevent the elves from going back to Middle Earth, Scatha's point. Of course, we know that this strategy was a catastrophic failure. The Noldor did go back. But in what circumstances? Not an orderly journey to go and meet the second kindred, after which they might have returned to Valinor. No. Thus ere the Valar were aware the peace of Valinor was poisoned. The Noldor began to murmur against them, and many became filled with pride, forgetting how much of what they had and knew came to them in gift from the Valar. Fiercest burned the new flame of desire for freedom and wider realms in the heart of Feanor; and Melkor laughed in his secrecy, for to that mark had his lies been addressed, hating Feanor above all, and lusting ever for the Silmarils. And that is the start of Feanors proud words and thoughts, that led eventually to his rebellion and the Flight of the Noldor. So if they wished to keep the elves from harm in Middle Earth, this hardly achieved it.


No, really, there can be no room for doubt. Manwe meant well but we know he got it wrong. We know that Tulkas and Orome were not deceived about Melkors apparent repentance, but we also know that Manwe was and ignored their misgivings. The Periaur have shown how Melkor twisted this to his own end, and that all Manwe’s good intentions failed. He wanted to save the elves from peril and evil, but in the end not telling the Elves allowed Melkor to sow more evil and imperil the elves far more than telling them would have done, There can be only one conclusion: the decision was not correct.

[Scatha]

First of all, sorry for the rather late reply, but the sudden departure of our guildmaster at the GoE caused a slight delay, with Beth not present I had very little time to prepare my post.

Here goes:

On behalf of the guild of elves/dwarves, I will try to sum up our points. (God knows I wish Beth was here, as she is much better at this then I am.)

We have tried to prove that Manwe, on his own accord and with the knowledge he possessed, made the correct choice by not telling the elves of the coming of Men.

Our first attempt to this point, was not the strongest, but seemed strong enough to be in need of several posts to undo them.

Manwe did foresee trouble for the elves by the coming of Men, thus told them not of their coming. With Melkor's influence still roaming in Arda, where Men would awake, he tried to stop the elves from going there, thus trying to protect the elves from the influence of Melkor.

Our second point raised was to counter the arguements provided by the Periaur, by Omnipotent_Elf:

ahh, but it is logical. If your loved ones were threatened with danger, you would try to prevent it. EVEN IF YOU DIDNT UNDERSTAND THE DANGER you would try to protect your loved ones from it. An unseen danger is indeed the worst kind.

Manwe did not understand evil, not being affected by it. Yet elves were. HE wanted to protect them, but this danger was unseen. He had no solid proof to prevent Melkor, just his own personal feelings. As such, he had no grounds to actually prevent Melkor from roaming in Valinor, and conversing with the elves.


Followed by a point raised by Beth:

Therefore, Manwe had no concept of evil. He was entirely good. Jealousy is an evil; therefore, Manwe could not conceive of jealousy either. He wouldn't consider that the Elves would be jealous, because he didn't know what jealousy is. Do we hold small children responsible for things they do wrong, when they have no concept of what right or wrong is? No. Neither can Manwe be held responsible for the jealousy the Elves bore toward Men.


Now the Periaur make the following suggestion:

Accountability is not at issue. Responsibility is not an issue. Blame is not at issue. People can mistakes without it reflecting on them. It is still a mistake. Example: a child has never been taught how to add up. You ask him/her what two plus two equals. He/she says five. Is the child wrong? Of course! Is the child to blame? Nope. Is the child less wrong, because its not to blame? Unfortunately not.


For someone that is totally void of evil in all it's forms, Manwe made a decision based on what his knowledge allowed him to, one void of cruelty and without any doubt a correct one in his mind, namely to keep the coming of Men from the elves and to allow Melkor to roam among the elves, for locking him away for three ages, would have been cruel. For a demi-god who makes his decisions according to what he knows, his choice was not a bad one, but neither was it perfect.

Legoman's reply (or addition) to the next post made by snaga, tops the bill.

But so what, as you said yourself 'hindsight is a wonderful thing', but if he didn't know Melkor was evil why did he still not tell the elves of the coming of man. You don't seem to have answered that point, which was put forth by snaga1 at the beginning.


Hindsight is a marvellous thing, as my teammate omnipotent_Elf pointed out, but it is not the hindsight of Manwe, but more ours, as Manwe had to cope with the facts he possessed at the time. It is easy to say that he made a bad choice, but given the circumstances he made them under and the facts he had at the time of making them, he made the right choice.

That we later find a lot wrong with it, does not say the choice at the moment was a wrong one.

Snaga then makes the closing statementsfor the Periaur, closing off with this:

No, really, there can be no room for doubt. Manwe meant well but we know he got it wrong. We know that Tulkas and Orome were not deceived about Melkors apparent repentance, but we also know that Manwe was and ignored their misgivings. The Periaur have shown how Melkor twisted this to his own end, and that all Manwe’s good intentions failed. He wanted to save the elves from peril and evil, but in the end not telling the Elves allowed Melkor to sow more evil and imperil the elves far more than telling them would have done, There can be only one conclusion: the decision was not correct.


If Manwe according to the Periaur did not make the correct decison, then it should have been both Tulkas' and Orome's obligation to enlighten Manwe, in reegards of Melkor, but they didn't. So the failure made according to the Periaur, is not Manwe's, but instead falls on Tulkas and Orome, for keeping information from Manwe, where he could have needed it most. For if he had known about evil, which was in Melkor's heart and soul, the dicision made would have been a different one.

Thus Manwe made the best decision he could have, based on the knowledge he possessed at the time. Meaning his decision could not have been wrong despite what Periaur leads us to believe.