The Silmarillion Ch. #11:Of the Sun and Moon and Hiding of Valinor

[Maeglin]

I would like to apologize in advance for not having any additional readings, I only own 3 HOME books and they are the "History of Lord of the Rings ones," so they don't concern the Sil. Also, I just read the chapter I'm about to post on about 3 minutes ago.:o I'm not sure exactly how I am supposed to post the intro, but I'll go by what I've seen on the other chapters, so here goes, just bear with me if I'm confusing..........

Thus they held vigil in the night of Valinor,and their thought passed back beyond Ea and forth to the End ; yet neither power nor wisdom assuaged their grief, and the knowing of evil in the hour of its being.

End as in what? The end of time? The boundaries of the world? I'm a little lost on where the thoughts of the Valar actually were.

for the Sun was set as a sign for the awakening of Men and teh waning of the Elves, but the Moon cherishes their memory.

The only thing I found strange about that was that the Elves were not even beginning to wane, it was still their time in Middle-Earth, men were just awakening and had no power yet.

Arien the maiden was mightier than he, and she was chosen because she had not feared the heats of Laurelin, and was unhurt by them, being from the beginning a spirit of fire, whome Melkor had not decieved nor drawn to his service.

This sounds like its implying that Melkor had drawn just about every other spirit of fire to his service, mabye not, but it seems like it. Would these other fire spirits be the Balrogs, perhaps?

Then he assailed Tilion, sending spirits of shadow agaisnt him, and there was strife in Ilmen beneath the paths of the stars; but Tilion was victorious.

What kinds of spirits were being sent to attack Tilion? They must have been rather weak if they lost in a many-to-one fight. I would assume that the spirits would be Maiar, but Tilion was not all that powerful of a Maia himself, so I would think he'd be beaten by several of his own kind.

Thus it was that as Mandos foretold to them in Araman the Blessed Realm was shut against the Noldor; and of the many messengers that in after days sailed into the West none came ever to Valinor- save one only: the mightiest mariner of song.

I have no question or point to make with that quote, I just think that it is an extremely powerful quote, I got chills when I read it. If you know the story then you know that it is a great piece of foreshadowing, and just sets up for one of the greatest moments in the history of Middle-Earth.

Okay thats all I have for now, maybe I'll try to add some more later when I'm done studying for finals.;)

[BlackCaptain]

As for your first observation, I have no clue as to what this End could be... Perhaps it's just metephoricaly speaking?

For your second observation, I think that we need to look at the Sil as memiors of some sort. Tolkien makes alot of foresightings in the Sil about what is to come, and this could just be looked at as another one.

3rd) Dragons, Balrogs, Other unmentionable demons, it's all good.

4th) Well even though this seems like a question for some HoME people, it would probably be a swarm of those unmentionable demons that I mentioned above

5th) Oh man that Mandos! He's always saying, foreboding, condemning, and laying othes on everything! He's one of my favorites...

[Ithrynluin]

1.

Originally posted by Glorfindel1187
End as in what? The end of time? The boundaries of the world? I'm a little lost on where the thoughts of the Valar actually were.

Their thoughts passed beyond the very beginning of the Universe (for they are older than the world itself) and even to the very 'end' of the world - perhaps referring to the Dagor Dagorath, when Melkor will be annihilated and after which the world will be made whole again.

I guess the passage means that they sought counsel in all possible directions but found no consolation for the destruction of the Two Trees.


2.

The only thing I found strange about that was that the Elves were not even beginning to wane, it was still their time in Middle-Earth, men were just awakening and had no power yet.


That is why it is said that the Sun was a sign not an immediate indicator of the fading of the Elder race and the Dominion of the Younger. The time when this prophecy would come true was the 4th Age.


3.

This sounds like its implying that Melkor had drawn just about every other spirit of fire to his service

Not necessarily. It could mean that, but then again not really. :)

Would these other fire spirits be the Balrogs, perhaps?

Most definitely yes!

4.

What kinds of spirits were being sent to attack Tilion? They must have been rather weak if they lost in a many-to-one fight. I would assume that the spirits would be Maiar, but Tilion was not all that powerful of a Maia himself, so I would think he'd be beaten by several of his own kind.

I don't think we'll ever know for sure. Possibly they were - what other creature could reach the heights where Tilion was set to roam?

As usual, I'll add some of my own observations:

6.

Moreover it was not revealed to Manwë where the beginning of Men should be, north, south, or east.

According to Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, the life-span of Men was shortened through Melkor's influence. Why was this not revealed to Manwë then? Why not give this knowledge to the Valar, so that they could secure the area of the awakening of Men and deliver the Aftercomers from the marring of Melkor? Or was this another one of those evil-will-only-enrich-Arda-in-the-end situations?

7.

Arien the maiden was mightier than he, and she was chosen because she had not feared the heats of Laurelin, and was unhurt by them, being from the beginning a spirit of fire, whom Melkor had not deceived nor drawn to his service. Too bright were the eyes of Arien for even the Eldar to look on, and leaving Valinor she forsook the form and raiment which like the Valar she had worn there, and she was as a naked flame, terrible in the fullness of her splendour.

If her eyes were too bright for the Eldar to look on, why did she wear such a form in Valinor then, since the Ainur could choose how they would appear to the eyes of Elves and Men? Or could she not appear any other way even if she wanted to, since she was such a bright and strong spirit of fire?

8.

Tilion had traversed the heaven seven times, and thus was in the furthest east, when the vessel of Arien was made ready. Then Anar arose in glory, and the first dawn of the Sun was like a great fire upon the towers of the Pelóri: the clouds of Middle-earth were kindled, and there was heard the sound of many waterfalls

The clouds were kindled? How do you interpret this? That the heat of the 'newborn' Sun squeezed all the water from the clouds?;)

P.S. For additional readings, you can also check out the Sun and the Moon part of Myths Transformed, HoME X.

[Beleg]

For additional reading I'd like to recomend Annals of Aman, HOME#10, specially the Sixth and last part.

This sounds like its implying that Melkor had drawn just about every other spirit of fire to his service, mabye not, but it seems like it.

Actually It doesn't to me. It merely mentiones that Morgoth converted some of the spirit of fires (e.g: Balrogs) towards his side.
What kinds of spirits were being sent to attack Tilion?

Spirits of shadows, probably phantoms under the sorcery of Sauron.



but Tilion was not all that powerful of a Maia himself,

No he was not. He would be a pretty strong Maia, specially in fight and magnitude of wrath, since he belonged to the company of Orome. He might be less in power compared to Aerin, but he was still pretty powerful or else the Valar wouldn't have choosen him as the Anor guardian. so I would think he'd be beaten by several of his own kind.
Remember that the servants of Morgoth feared the Sun and the Moon and whilst attacking the attackers would be rather fearful of what might be in store for them. They would be apprenhensive and Tilion would have a nice edge upon them on his own teritory.
But the above part is just speculation.

Here is the full prophecy given in HOME#10, Annals of Aman.

All halted and stood still, and from end to end of the
hosts of the Noldor the voice was heard speaking the Prophecy of the North and the Doom of the Noldor. 'Turn back! Turn back! Seek the pardon of the Valar lest their curse fall upon you!' So the voice began, and many woes it foretold in dark words, which the Noldor understood not until the woes indeed after befell them. 'Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; but if ye go Further, be assured that the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains.
$153 'Lo! on the House of Feanor the wrath of the gods
lieth from the West into the uttermost East, and upon all that
will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by the treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass.The Dispossessed shall they be for ever.
$154 'Behold! Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred
unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death's shadow.For know now that though Eru appointed unto you to die not in Ea, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain may yebe, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and bygrief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos.There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies and findlittle pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you.And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos, they shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and Shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.'

[Beleg]

Irthyluin posted while I was typing my post.

According to Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, the life-span of Men was shortened through Melkor's influence. Why was this not revealed to Manwë then?

Do we have any evidance that Manwe didn't know about it?

Why not give this knowledge to the Valar, so that they could secure the area of the awakening of Men and deliver the Aftercomers from the marring of Melkor?

Valid Question, to which I have no firm answer.

Or could she not appear any other way even if she wanted to, since she was such a bright and strong spirit of fire?

I agree with this. After all she was a spirit of fire, and fire was an essential part of her essence, in whatever raiment she might be. Remember further on she is described as a "naked flame", in both cases fire being an essential element of her being. Perhaps It was a thing which came naturally to her and was part of her identity.

The clouds were kindled? How do you interpret this? That the heat of the 'newborn' Sun squeezed all the water from the clouds?

The Sun seemed to radiate heat, so it may be possible that due to intense heat of the sun all the clouds evaporated....which frankly sounds weird---the usage of the word "Kindled" confuses me.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
Do we have any evidance that Manwe didn't know about it?


No, I was referring to the location of the awakening of Men, which Manwë wasn't familiar with. Whether he know of the impact Melkor had upon Men is irrelevant, since he couldn't really do anything about it anymore. Too bad for the race of Men!