Debate Tournement - Round 3: Scholar's Hall vs. Tolkienology [Archive]

Inderjit S

06-17-2003, 01:31 PM

The Scholars are arguing for Finrod and Nargothrond having the more effective role in the War of the Jewels as a instrument to counter Morgoth.

Intro

Now it is obvious that Finrod had the greater role in the history of Beleriand, but how is this reflected in Ulmo's dreams to him and his building of Nargothrond then the answer is of course!

First of all lets get a little description of Finrod’s character:

From the People of Middle-Earth: The Shibboleth of Fëanor

Finrod was like his father in his fair face and golden hair, and also in noble and generous heart, though he had the high courage of the Ñoldor in his youth their eagerness and unrest ; and he had also from his mother a love of the sea and dreams of far lands that he had never seen.

So already we can see that he was a extremely wise and noble elf, and is held to be the ‘wisest of the Exiles’ (‘Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth’) therefore his actions can be seen as a reflection of his wisdom and therefore we can immediately see that they may have had a better course in the war on Morgoth since he is the one with the greatest inherent wisdom and foreknowledge and this will greatly effect his judgement.

There are several factors that are relevant regarding Finrod’s rôle in the Story:

He welcomed men to Beleriand, and it was he who gained leave for the Haladin to dwell in Brethil, if that didn’t happen then they would have dwindled in the wilds.
Then we have, the biggest factor of all, which is Beren and Lúthien’s Quest of the Silmaril, in which Finrod and Nargothrond played a substantial part.
Why is the Quest for the Silmaril so important? It is because it was a hopeless War, the Ñoldor couldn’t beat Morgoth by force of arms as they attempted to do. Only the Valar could

From the Letters of JRRT: 131

The fall of the Elves comes about through the possessive attitude of Feanor and his seven sons to these gems. They are captured by the Enemy, set in his Iron Crown, and guarded in his impenetrable stronghold . The sons of Feanor take a terrible and blasphemous oath of enmity and vengeance against all or any, even of the gods, who dares to claim any part or right in the Silmarilli. They pervert the greater pan of their kindred, who rebel against the gods, and depart from paradise, and go to make hopeless war upon the Enemy.

But this provides the solution: Elwing casting herself into the Sea to save the Jewel comes to Eärendil, and with the power of the great Gem they pass at last to Valinor, and accomplish their errand – at the cost of never being allowed to return or dwell again with Elves or Men. The gods then move again, and great power comes out of the West, and the Stronghold of the Enemy is destroyed

As JRRT states, it is the power of the Silmaril that allows Eärendil to reach Valinórë, and that was possible because of the Quest of Beren and Lúthien.
Lets look with detail at the actions of FF:
First of all Beren went towards Nargothond because of Barahir’s oath to Finrod, and he knew that he needed help:

From the Published Silmarillion: Of Beren and Lúthien

It is told in the Lay of Leithian that Beren passed through Doriath unhindered…thence he looked westward and he descried the highlands of Taur-en-Faroth that rose above Nargothrond. And being destitute, and without hope or counsel, he turned his feet hither
It is plain the Beren knew that in his present plight that Finrod the great was the only person who could offer him any help. So therefore he went to Nargothrond. Imagine what would have happened if he hadn’t gone there? He would have wondered wild and distraught, and without hope (Except for a false one) with no help in the world and how would Lúthien find him? It is obvious that Finrod played a primary role in the Quest, and he was one of the main reasons it succeeded, and the recovery of the Silmaril was the very downfall of Morgoth.

1. He sacrificed his life to save Beren’s. With Beren dead the quest was fruitless. His sacrifice in fighting the wolf meant that Beren could live and the Quest could continue.

2. It was obvious to him that this was ordained, note his words to Galadriel and his realisation that this quest would lead to his death, but to the eventual downfall of Morgoth and enrichment of Arda. Therefore one can immediately see his important role in the fate of the WoTJ.

From the Published Silmarillion: Of Beren and Lúthien

But Felagund hear his tale in wonder and disquiet and he knew that the oath that he had sworn was come upon him for his death, as he long before foretold to Galadriel.

3. The fulfillment of the Quest led to the eventual downfall of Morgoth. Without the Silmaril, there would be no Quest of Eärendil, which renders Turgon’s most important rôle, him being father of Idril, mother of Eärendil impotent. Sure Eärendil could go round cruising the seas till he died, but this would achieve nothing without Silmaril and therefore without Finrod’s help the Elves and Men would never over-come Morgoth. So one can see his important role in the whole quest, as the instigator and catalyst of the Quest of the Silmaril.
From the Published Silmarillion

And the wise have said that it was by reason of the power of that holy jewel that they came in time to waters that no vessels save those of the Teleri had known; and they came to the Enchanted Isles and escaped their enchantment; and they came into the Shadowy Seas and passed their shadows, and they looked upon Tol Eressëa the Lonely Isle, but tarried not; and at the last they cast anchor in the Bay of Eldamar, and the Teleri saw the coming of that ship out of the East and they were amazed, gazing from afar upon the light of the Silmaril, and it was very great.

We can also see Nargothrond plays a central role in the whole quest as well. The Published Silmarillion tells us that Celegorm and Curufin fled to Nargothrond, and this proved extremely important for several reasons.:

1 They kidnapped Lúthien and got her acquainted with Huan. Without Huan the quest would have failed. Who would have killed Carcaroth? Or slew the wolves of Tol Sirion that would have killed Lúthien and Beren in the pits and allowed for Lúthien to throw down a huge enemy fortress in Tol Sirion and he fought Sauron off Lúthien thus allowing for her to vanquish him.

2 They tarnished the relationship between the people of Nargothrond and the Fëanorians. This is important as in the Nirnaeth if Nargothrond had been fully involved in it, then Nargothrond would have been destroyed.

From the Published Silmarillion

Yet neither by wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men.

Inderjit S

06-17-2003, 01:32 PM

3 The Fëanorians fleeing to the wilds of Beleriand also led to the Second and Third kinslayings and thus Eärendil quest, and there could have been further strife if they had been victorious, as Celegorm stated that if they were victorious then they would ravage Doriath, and this would have been a disaster.

4 Nargothrond also acted as a refuge for the Sindar and Ñoldor of Dorthinion after the Bragollach, whilst Gondolin closed it’s doors to all. Therefore we can see that Nargothrond was a brilliant refuge for any wild or homeless elves-unlike Gondolin and it allowed for many lives to be saved.

Others took refuge in Nargothrond

From the Published Silmarillion. Do you ever see Gondolin open it's doors to Elven refugees? No. They shut their doors on them. both kingdoms were 'hidden' yet only one allowed for people to come into it. As the quote that Chymaera supplies says, they were made to 'establish a retreat, lest Morgoth should burst from Angband and overthrow the armies of the North' this is a reference to Braggolach and it's after effects, yet did Gondolin fulfill this objective? No. Did Nargothrond? Yes.

And where would Túrin go with no Nargothrond? And how would he slay Glaurung? With his slaying of Glaurung the people of Beleriand were freed from a great evil and it was a amazing achievement for him. Túrin’s’ life would therefore have panned out differently and many of his feats wouldn’t happen, with no Gwindor he probably would have been killed by the Ork’s.

The important thing to remember is that it was the Silmaril that proved unvaluable in the end. No Silmaril, no reaching Valinórë, No Valar, No defeat of Morgoth = Defeat.

gate7ole

06-18-2003, 12:53 AM

The Tolkienologists will argue that it was Turgon and his kingdom that was the most effective instrument in Ulmo’s plan to counter Morgoth.

First of all let us understand fuller the topic. The question is not which one of the two realms influenced more the events of Beleriand throughout the 550+ years of First Age. The question is which one of the two was more effective as an instrument for Ulmo. This is very important to understand, since Ulmo had a much different idea of fighting Morgoth than the Noldor had. His hope was not in arms, since he knew that Morgoth was undefeatable by the Eldar alone.

To understand better the role of each one of the two realms, let us see their actions during the last crucial years of First Age:
(taken from the Grey Annals – The War of Jewels)
455 – Dagor Bragollach
465 – Finrod dies to save Beren’s life
472 – Nirnaeth Anroediad
490-5. During this time Turin dwelt in Nargothrond… And in that time the folk of Nargothrond forsook their secrecy, their war of ambush and hunting, and went openly to battle. Thus Nargothrond was revealed to the wrath and malice of Morgoth.
495 – Sack of Nargothrond
510 – Fall of Gondolin
Also, we read about the situation in Nargothrond:
Chapter 19 Of Beren and Lúthien:
And after Celegorm Curufin spoke, more softly but with no less power, conjuring in the minds of the Elves a vision of war and the ruin of Nargothrond. So great a fear did he set in their hearts that never after until the time of Túrin would any Elf of that realm go into open battle; but with stealth and ambush, with wizardry and venomed dart, they pursued all strangers, forgetting the bonds of kinship. Thus they fell from the valour and freedom of the Elves of old, and their land was darkened.
So, from 465 FA when Finrod was slain, till 490, Nargothrond was not a very “active” realm. In fact, it was decaying by the ruling of Orodreth and the involvement of Celegorm and Curufin. Only during the 5 years that Túrin dwelt there did Nargothrond gain some power – which can hardly be considered am achievement of Finrod’s realm; anywhere he might go, Túrin would establish a powerful realm. Nargothrond’s contribution to the War of the Jewels finished with the death of Finrod.

Let us see now the situation of Gondolin.
Chapter 23 Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin.
Gondolin was as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and Turgon trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength
…
and after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad the people of that city desired never again to mingle in the woes of Elvesand Men without, nor to return through dread and danger into the West
Gondolin had become powerful and beautiful, yet hidden. Someone might argue that they did not aid the other Eldar in the war against Morgoth, especially after Nirnaeth. And I answer, what did the other realms succeed, expect for being destroyed quicker?
Gondolin survived and became the last realm to defend its land against Morgoth. It was the last place where the Noldor could rest safe. We should not forget also that it was the place where much of the lore of the Old Days was preserved (through Pengolod the sage). After the sack of Doriath, Gondolin was the only realm that opposed to Morgoth. And after its fall, it formed the core of the remnants that dwelt at the Mouths of Sirion with Círdan. With its written lore, it preserved not only their existence but also their culture.
Besides, let us not forget that we seek here: which one of the two realms was a better instrument in Ulmo’s plans. There was no hope in war since Ulmo had seen Morgoth’s full power. Only in secrecy and trying to get the help of the Vala would they defeat Morgoth. And Turgon was the only one of the princes to understand this and continuously try to obtain the grace of the Valar:
Chapter 18 Of the Ruin of Beleriand. Now when Turgon learned of the breaking of the leaguer of Angband he would not suffer any of his own people to issue forth to war; for he deemed that Gondolin was strong, and the time not yet ripe for its revealing. But he believed also that the ending of the Siege was the beginning of the downfall of the Noldor, unless aid should come; and he sent companies of the Gondolindrim in secret to the mouths of Sirion and the Isle of Balar. There they built ships, and set sail into the uttermost West upon Turgon's errand, seeking for Valinor, to ask for pardon and aid of the Valar; and they besought the birds of the sea to guide them. But the seas were wild and wide, and shadow and enchantment lay upon them; and Valinor was hidden.
and
Chapter 20 Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad
And when Turgon heard of this he sent again his messengers to Sirion's mouths, and besought the aid of Círdan the Shipwright. At the bidding of Turgon Círdan built seven swift ships, and they sailed out into the West; but no tidings of them came ever back to Balar.
Just this would convince the least faithful; that Turgon was at least following the plan of Ulmo to gain the grace of the Valar. But the time was not yet. It should wait for the greatest mariner of all, Eärendil.
So, now we come to a crucial point. Gondolin was the place of birth for Eärendil and Turgon was his grand-father. Through Eärendil, came the final attempt to gain the help of the Valar and it succeeded. It was the ending point of Ulmo’s plan, the conclusion and the bringing of salvation.

gate7ole

06-18-2003, 12:55 AM

The main argument of the Scholars is that without Finrod there would be no Silmaril. And from our point we could say that without Turgon there would be no Eärendil! Which one is most necessary I will not say. I guess both. But who says that Finrod played the most important role in regaining the Silmaril?! What Finrod did, was only to save Beren’s life. If Finrod acted wiser, who knows, maybe he would have planned a more hopeful plan to gain the Silmaril. But blindly following Beren and an oath and sacrifising his life, did not help Beren at all to find the Silmaril. It was mostly Lúthien who regained the Silmaril. What I say is that even without Firnod’s sacrifise, the events might be different and still would Beren fulfill his mission.
On the other hand, Turgon and/or Gondolin was necessary for the birth of Eärendil. And to Inderjit’s quote:
posted by Inderjit S
Without the Silmaril, there would be no Quest of Eärendil, which renders Turgon’s most important rôle, him being father of Idril, mother of Eärendil impotent. Sure Eärendil could go round cruising the seas till he died, but this would achieve nothing without Silmaril and therefore without Finrod’s help the Elves and Men would never over-come Morgoth.
we answer:
“Sure the Silmaril would stay forever hanging in Elwing’s neck, waiting for an unborn Eärendil to come.”
The main argument of the Scholars, thus stands void. Also:
posted by Inderjit S
So one can see Finrod’s important role in the whole quest, as the instigator and catalyst of the Quest of the Silmaril.
…
We can also see Nargothrond plays a central role in the whole quest as well. The Published Silmarillion tells us that Celegorm and Curufin fled to Nargothrond, and this proved extremely important for several reasons.:

1 They kidnapped Lúthien and got her acquainted with Huan. Without Huan the quest would have failed. Who would have killed Carcaroth? Or slew the wolves of Tol Sirion that would have killed Lúthien and Beren in the pits and allowed for Lúthien to throw down a huge enemy fortress in Tol Sirion and he fought Sauron off Lúthien thus allowing for her to vanquish him.

2 They tarnished the relationship between the people of Nargothrond and the Fëanorians. This is important as in the Nirnaeth if Nargothrond had been fully involved in it, then Nargothrond would have been destroyed.
Sure, Nargothrond and Finrod played the most important role in the gaining of the Silmarils. Not Doriath and Thingol who requested it. Not Beren and Lúthien who got it.
What if Huan was never given to Celegorm. That makes Oromë the catalyst of the Quest of the Silmarils! Let’s not be naïve. Many things worked for the Quest of the Silmaril. Finrod played his part only. He will not be given the credit for the whole thing.

posted by Inderjit S
Nargothrond also acted as a refuge for the Sindar and Ñoldor of Dorthinion after the Bragollach, whilst Gondolin closed it’s doors to all. Therefore we can see that Nargothrond was a brilliant refuge for any wild or homeless elves-unlike Gondolin and it allowed for many lives to be saved.
Let’s see:
many were received into Doriath, and the kingdom and strength of Thingol grew greater in that time, for the power of Melian the queen was woven about his borders and evil could not yet enter that hidden realm.
Doriath was the main realm that received the Eldar that fled away. Sure, Nargothrond got some, but it was far from the “brilliant refuge”. And still it didn’t manage to keep them long save, since it soon was destroyed by Glaurung. I repeat, Gondolin’s strength was not in rescuing a few lives here and there and postponing their death, but in forming the cultural remnant that would also bring hope out of Eärendil.

posted by Inderjit S
And where would Túrin go with no Nargothrond? And how would he slay Glaurung? With his slaying of Glaurung the people of Beleriand were freed from a great evil and it was a amazing achievement for him. Túrin’s’ life would therefore have panned out differently and many of his feats wouldn’t happen, with no Gwindor he probably would have been killed by the Ork’s.
I think I answered this before. Túrin would do a great job, wherever he went. And if I remember correctly, it was at Brethil that Glaurung was killed and not at Nargothrond ;) . Does that make Brethil the centre of opposition against Morgoth? :D

And if there are still doubts:
Chapter 20 Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad
Morgoth dwelt ever upon Turgon; for Turgon had escaped him, of ail his foes that one whom he most desired to take or to destroy. And that thought troubled him, and marred his victory, for Turgon of the mighty house of Fingolfin was now by right King of all the Noldor; and Morgoth feared and hated the house of Fingolfin, because they had the friendship of Ulmo his foe, and because of the wounds that Fingolfin gave him with his sword. And most of all his kin Morgoth feared Turgon; for of old in Valinor his eye had lighted upon him, and whenever he drew near a shadow had fallen on his spirit, foreboding that in some time that yet lay hidden, from Turgon ruin should come to him.
From Turgon and not from Finrod, ruin should (and did) come to Morgoth.

Maedhros

06-18-2003, 07:09 AM

It is very interesting to see what really is the Published Silmarillion.
From the Book of Lost Tales I: Prologue
'Christopher Tolkien has helped us in this instance by honestly pointing out that The Silmarillion in the shape that we have it is the invention of the son not the father', and this is a serious misapprehension to which my words have given rise.
Again, Professor Shippey, while accepting (p. 169) my assurance that a 'very high proportion' of the 1937 'Silmarillion' text remained into the published version

It is very important to make some distinction between JRRT texts and the Published Silmarillion. The only completed narrative of the Silmarillion is the Quenta of The Shaping of Middle-Earth, with a newer version Quenta Silmarillion which is in The Lost Road and Other Writtings, which is dated in 1937 (it reaches only to chapter 17 and then goes to the End of the Quenta).

Now let’s examine the quote provided to us by gate7ole:
From the Published Silmarillion: Chapter 20 Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad
Morgoth dwelt ever upon Turgon; for Turgon had escaped him, of ail his foes that one whom he most desired to take or to destroy. And that thought troubled him, and marred his victory, for Turgon of the mighty house of Fingolfin was now by right King of all the Noldor; and Morgoth feared and hated the house of Fingolfin, because they had the friendship of Ulmo his foe, and because of the wounds that Fingolfin gave him with his sword. And most of all his kin Morgoth feared Turgon; for of old in Valinor his eye had lighted upon him, and whenever he drew near a shadow had fallen on his spirit, foreboding that in some time that yet lay hidden, from Turgon ruin should come to him.
With the Lost Road and Other Writtings: Quenta Silmarillion:
§20 But the Orcs went freely through all the North and came ever further southward into Beleriand. Doriath yet remained, and Nargothrond was hidden; but Morgoth gave small heed to them, either because he knew little of them, or because their hour was not yet come in the deep purposes of his malice. But the thought of Turgon troubled him greatly; for Turgon came of the mighty house of Fingolfin and was now by right the lord of all the Gnomes. And Morgoth feared and hated most the house of Fingolfin, both because they had scorned him in Valinor, and because of the wounds that Fingolfin had given him in battle.
And the note also:
This chapter appears in subsequent amanuensis typescripts, but my father never changed them or corrected them in any way.
So the bold part of the quote given by gate7ole is not the work of JRRT, but is the editorial work of Christopher Tolkien and Guy Kay.

Originally posted by gate7ole
Gondolin survived and became the last realm to defend its land against Morgoth. It was the last place where the Noldor could rest safe. We should not forget also that it was the place where much of the lore of the Old Days was preserved (through Pengolod the sage). After the sack of Doriath, Gondolin was the only realm that opposed to Morgoth. And after its fall, it formed the core of the remnants that dwelt at the Mouths of Sirion with Círdan. With its written lore, it preserved not only their existence but also their culture.
This is not necessarily true. Look at this:
From The War of the Jewels: Tale of Years
510: Elwing and company come to the New Havens at the mouths of Sirion with the Silmaril.
511: Tuor, Idril, Earendil &c. reach Sirion, which now prospers in the power of the Silmaril.

There were exiles too from Doriath in the Havens of Sirion too. They too had a culture to preserve as did Galadriel too, which was the daughter of Finarfin.

Let’s see the hidden rôle of Turgon, that the Tolkienologist avoid mentioning:

1 From The War of the Jewels: The Wanderings of Húrin
Then Húrin looked up to the grey sky, thinking that by fortune he might once more descry the Eagles, as he had done long ago in his youth. But he saw only the shadows blown from the East, and clouds swirling about the inaccessible peaks; and wind hissed over the stones. But the watch of the Great Eagles was now redoubled, and they marked Húrin well, far below, forlorn in the failing light. And straightaway Sorontar himself, since the tidings seemed great, brought word to Turgon.
But Turgon said: 'Nay! This is past belief! Unless Morgoth sleeps. Ye were mistaken.'
'Nay, not so,' answered Sorontar. 'If the Eagles of Manwë were wont to err thus, Lord, your hiding would have been in vain.'
'Then your words bode ill,' said Turgon; 'for they can mean only that even Húrin Thalion hath surrendered to the will of Morgoth. My heart is shut.' But when he had dismissed Sorontar, Turgon sat long in thought, and he was troubled, remembering the deeds of Húrin. And he opened his heart, and he sent to the Eagles to seek for Húrin, and to bring him, if they could, to Gondolin. But it was too late, and they saw him never again in light or in shadow.
For Húrin stood at last in despair before the stem silence of the Echoriad, and the westering sun, piercing the clouds, stained his white hair with red. Then he cried aloud in the wilderness, heedless of any ears, and he cursed the pitiless land: 'hard as the hearts of Elves and Men'. And he stood at last upon a great stone, and spreading wide his arms, looking towards Gondolin, he called in a great voice: 'Turgon, Turgon! Remember the Fen of Serech!' And again: 'Turgon! Húrin calls you. O Turgon, will you not hear in your hidden halls?'
But there was no answer, and all that he heard was wind in the dry grasses. 'Even so they hissed in Serech at the sunset,' he said. And as he spoke the sun went behind the Mountains of Shadow, and a darkness fell about him, and the wind ceased, and there was silence in the waste.
Yet there were ears that had heard the words that Húrin spoke, and eyes that marked well his gestures; and report of all came soon to the Dark Throne in the North.

So you see, it was because of Turgon himself, his pettiness, that Morgoth first knew of his Kingdom of Gondolin. If he would have had a pure heart, and remembered the feats of Húrin in the Nirnaeth at first, then Morgoth would have had no knowledge of it.

2 The Importance of the Silmail.
It is interesting that it is Turgon himself who makes the Silmaril fundamental to the defeating of Morgoth. Consider the Following:
In 495 FA, Tuor reaches Gondolin and it is there that he gives Turgon, the message of Ulmo to depart Gondolin and go to Sirion and to the Sea. It was then and there that Ulmo’s purpose was. But because of the pride of Turgon and the beauty of Gondolin, he would not hear Ulmo.
From The Shaping of Middle-Earth: The Quenta: 16 QII
But there they were made captive by the guard of the gate and led before the king. Tuor spoke his embassy to Turgon in the great square of Gondolin before the steps of his palace; but the king was grown proud and Gondolin so fair and beautiful and he was so trustful of its secret and impregnable strength, that he and the most of his folk wished no longer to trouble with the Gnomes and Men without, nor did they long more to return to the lands of the Gods.
It was in 502 FA that Thingol was slained in Doriath with the Silmaril. It is in 503 FA that Eëarendil and Elwing are born.
If Turgon had been the wise Elf that Finrod was then, he would have heeded the advice of Ulmo and departed from Gondolin. Then the force of the Valar of the West would have come much sooner, instead of the 545 FA when the war started. That is indeed a difference of 50 years.
Obviously, in that Scenario, Turgon would have become the real instrument of Ulmo in the War against Morgoth, but unfortunately for us, he was overcome by his pride, and the sad thing is that Turgon himself knew that the only hope laid on the West. Therefore, making the Silmaril of Beren and Lúthien instrumental in the saving of ME. Remember Eärendil reaches Valinor in 542 FA, but he began his voyages in 534 FA. He is allowed to come to Valinórë because he had the Silmaril that Elwing saved during the raid of the Sons of Fëanor in the Havens of Sirion.
Also consider that Idril, the daughter of Turgon didn’t even trust his own father with their plans on the Way of Escape. His own flesh and blood distrusted him.

Inderjit S

06-18-2003, 11:20 AM

This is very important to understand, since Ulmo had a much different idea of fighting Morgoth than the Noldor had. His hope was not in arms, since he knew that Morgoth was undefeatable by the Eldar alone.

Yes-hence the Silmaril, which Finrod helped win and without him and his realm it wouldn't be won.

So, from 465 FA when Finrod was slain, till 490, Nargothrond was not a very “active” realm. In fact, it was decaying by the ruling of Orodreth and the involvement of Celegorm and Curufin. Only during the 5 years that Túrin dwelt there did Nargothrond gain some power – which can hardly be considered am achievement of Finrod’s realm; anywhere he might go, Túrin would establish a powerful realm. Nargothrond’s contribution to the War of the Jewels finished with the death of Finrod.

It was more active then Gondolin., or to be accurate it adopted a Gondolin policy for 30 odd years. But wait didn't you say 'This is very important to understand, since Ulmo had a much different idea of fighting Morgoth than the Noldor had. His hope was not in arms, since he knew that Morgoth was undefeatable by the Eldar alone' so aren't you contradicting yourself by in one place criticizing Nargothrond's lack of activity and beforehand posting that Ulmo didn't believe that arms were the way in which the WoTJ could be won? Why use it in your argument when you state that it wasn't part of Ulmo's plans in context of them establishing their realms?

anywhere he might go, Túrin would establish a powerful realm.

Really? Wow...Doesn't it help that Nargothrond was one of the largest elven realms? Anyway, read my post that isn't the argument. The argument is that without Nargothrond Turin wouldn't have slain Glaurung-a great achievement for him, ridding the world of this terrible beast.

Gondolin survived and became the last realm to defend its land against Morgoth. It was the last place where the Noldor could rest safe

Yeah the Noldor who were given the 'privilege' to join Gondolin, and the remnants of Fingon's men after the Nirnaeth. Wait--what about the Elven-women of Hithlum? They were left in the lurch and were slain so that Gondolin could remain secret.

We should not forget also that it was the place where much of the lore of the Old Days was preserved (through Pengolod the sage).

Sirion's mouth was also a refuge for lore, hence the Narn I Hin Hurin written by Dirhavel the Hadorian poet. And how exactly would lore help Ulmo's purpouse anyway?

After the sack of Doriath, Gondolin was the only realm that opposed to Morgoth

And what did it do exactly to oppose Morgoth? Due to his pride and folly Turgon allowed Gondolin to be a sitting duck. In the end his disobeyed Tuor's summons from Ulmo-what does that say about him?

Just this would convince the least faithful; that Turgon was at least following the plan of Ulmo to gain the grace of the Valar. But the time was not yet.

Thanks for providing a quote showing Turgon acting against Ulmo's wishes. In sending ships to Valinor, he was frittering away lives since he should have known that Mandos's doom meant that the Noldor could never go to Aman since they were banned from going there.

So, now we come to a crucial point. Gondolin was the place of birth for Eärendil and Turgon was his grand-father. Through Eärendil, came the final attempt to gain the help of the Valar and it succeeded. It was the ending point of Ulmo’s plan, the conclusion and the bringing of salvation.

That’s nice, but what is the point of Earendil when there is no Silmaril? And who helped win the Silmaril, without whom the quest would have failed? Finrod of course. Earendil's role is rendered impotent without the Silmaril that Finrod helped win. Sure he might be the 'ending point' of Turgon’s plans but who caused it to be? Who started it all and made it all possible? Finrod
Note the fact that due to his service in the WoTJ Finrod was held in honor and re-incarnated, doesn't this show you how good and selfless a role he played in the WoTJ? It was because of him that it was won.

Sure, Nargothrond and Finrod played the most important role in the gaining of the Silmarils. Not Doriath and Thingol who requested it. Not Beren and Lúthien who got it.

I really dont understand your warped logic. After admitting 'Sure, Nargothrond and Finrod played the most important role in the gaining of the Silmarils' you then claim 'But who says that Finrod played the most important role in regaining the Silmaril'-well you do. :p Sure there were other factors in the Quest of the Silmaril but if it wasn't for Nargothrond it would have failed.

Doriath was the main realm that received the Eldar that fled away

By Eldar do you mean Sindar? Or at least Elwe wouldn't accept Feanorians into his realm and many other Noldor, heck the Noldorin tounge wasn't even allowed never mind the Noldor themselves.

I think I answered this before. Túrin would do a great job, wherever he went. And if I remember correctly, it was at Brethil that Glaurung was killed and not at Nargothrond . Does that make Brethil the centre of opposition against Morgoth?

Well it was due to Turin's going to Nargothrond that caused him to meet Glaurung which led to his slaying at it was Finrod's plee to Thingol which allowed for the Haladin to move to Brethil. Also
Of Dwarves and Men states that the Haladin upon entry to Beleriand were hostile to each other and therefore Finrod's allwoing for the Haladin to live in Brethil, thus saving them had a part in Ulmo's plans since he loved men and desired their peace and freedom.

the events might be different and still would Beren fulfill his mission.

REALLY? So how do you suppose Beren would've went to Anagband by himself and got past Saurons' isle of Werewolves and many other dangers (Even with Luthien wiyh him and the possbility of the was small). Eru ordianed the Quest of the Silamril to work as it did for a reason-it was the only way of success.

Beleg

06-18-2003, 05:03 PM

For the satisfaction of Mister Meadhros, I would like to provide Quote's from Grey Annals, NOT a work edited by Guy Kay or Christopher, and I believe is a later work then that of Lost Road.

Moreover of old his eye had lighted on Turgon, and a dark shadow fell on his heart, foreboding that, in some time that lay yet hidden in doom, from Turgon ruin should come to him.

Originally posted by Meadhros[/]
There were exiles too from Doriath in the Havens of Sirion too. They too had a culture to preserve as did Galadriel too, which was the daughter of Finarfin
The number of exiles from Gondolin was greater then the number of exiles from other Kingdoms. Besides what has Galadriel to do with the exiles of the Heaven's of Sirion? Which culture would Galadriel represent? The Noldo culture of Tirion? But that was only preserved truly in Gondolin.

Meadhros posts,

So you see, it was because of Turgon himself, his pettiness, that Morgoth first knew of his Kingdom of Gondolin. If he would have had a pure heart, and remembered the feats of Húrin in the Nirnaeth at first, then Morgoth would have had no knowledge of it.

And basically says that Turgon should have given Húrin admittance to Gondolin. But he convienently forget's to give any attention to Turgon's most legitimate statement,
[I]WOH, WOTJ
But Turgon said: 'Nay! This is past belief! Unless Morgoth sleeps.
So Is Morgoth so kind as to release his most prized prisoner and one of his biggest enemy without thinking of gaining any advantage through that release?
The answer certainly is No!
From the Published Silmarillion

But if this Quote from Quenta Silmarillion is not approved by you then I would like to further forward some evidance,
[QUOTE]From the Wanderings of Húrin, WOTJ
for Morgoth had news of all his movements, and though for a while he was hidden in the mountains, his coming down was soon espied. Thereafter he was followed and watched, yet with such cunning that he seldom got wind of it. All the creatures of Morgoth avoided his sight, and he was never waylaid or molested.

You say that It was due to Turgon's pettiness that Morgoth knew of Gondolin's location.
I ask what is Turgon's fault in all this? You seem to suggest that Turgon was wrong in not admitting Húrin to Gondolin.
I say that was a very wise move on his part. Gondolin was the last hope of the Eldar, and Morgoth as of yet didn't knew about It's location. Húrin every movement was being watched and If Turgon had sended eagles down to bear Húrin or Elves to take in him, then the location of Gondolin would have been confirmed at the moment. Turgon did what was right; for the better future of all the dwellers of ME.
It was folly on Húrin's part to go to Carasgerim not folly on Turgon's part not to grant him admittance.

Meadhros posts,
If Turgon had been the wise Elf that Finrod was then, he would have heeded the advice of Ulmo and departed from Gondolin. Then the force of the Valar of the West would have come much sooner, instead of the 545 FA when the war started. That is indeed a difference of 50 years
Earendil was born in 503. You admit that. Now even if he had heeded Ulmo's advice, who knowns how much trouble he had to go through before reaching the sea. Besides Morgoth would have thrown all of his forces against him to destroy his party, It would have been with great loss and a much, much diminished party that he would have reached Sirion, if at all he would have reached there. And even still they would have never reached Aman.
You are basically saying that by bowing to Ulmo's advice Turgon would have been able to,
a. Reach Valinor and call the Valar in 495 F.A
laying aside all other objections/questions, I ask you, without the Silmaril how would Turgon be able to reach Aman?
For it to be worked, every event in Beleriand will have to be reversed back twenty years!
Pretty scenrio but un-workable whatever might be tried!
Meadhros posts,
Also consider that Idril, the daughter of Turgon didn’t even trust his own father with their plans on the Way of Escape. His own flesh and blood distrusted him.
Might I give the reaction of Orodeth and the Nargothrondians when Finrod asked them for help in the Quest of Silmaril's!
Scared off by threats of sons of Fëanor!!

Beleg

06-18-2003, 05:06 PM

Inderjit S posts,
which Finrod helped win and without him and his realm it wouldn't be won.
Grey Annals, WOTJ
Now Beren went west to Nargothrond, and sought out King Felagund. And when Felagund heard of the quest he knew that the oath he had sworn was come upon him for his death (as long before he had said to Galadriel). But he kept his oath, and would have mustered all his host for the service of Beren, vain though all his strength must be in such a venture

Inderjit S posts,
So already we can see that he was a extremely wise and noble elf, and is held to be the ‘wisest of the Exiles’ (‘Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth’) therefore his actions can be seen as a reflection of his wisdom and therefore we can immediately see that they may have had a better course in the war on Morgoth since he is the one with the greatest inherent wisdom and foreknowledge and this will greatly effect his judgement.

But you are forgetting that Finrod was slain (needlessly) in F.A 464, and that the ruler's after him sadly didn't inherit Finrod's great wisdom, and failed to comply with Ulmo's plan, thus bringing it's own wreckage.

Inderjit S posts,
Why use it in your argument when you state that it wans't part of Ulmo's plans in context of them establishing their realms?
Arms may not be the way by which Morgoth can be routed completely but arms were essential in maintaining the soverignity of the Kingdom. Do you think that the Kingdoms should have sit forlornly, sending all the emmesieries to Valinor, sitting idly, hoping for the Valar to come, doing nothing to maintain their integrity and survival.Adeptness in arms were essential for the survival of the races till the coming from the help from the west.
Arms might not win the game, but they were essential in keeping the contestants running.
Inderjit S posts,

Wow...Doesn't it help that Nargothrond was one of the largest elven realms?
In area yes, in power no. After the Nirneath orcs wandered freely in the Western Beleriand and in area's within the rule of Nargothrond and Nargothrondians could do nothing to hinder it. Infact in the last few years of it's existance The rule of Nargothrond became limitied to the gorge of Narog and the immediate surroundings, while as long as Gondolin lasted, not one enemy creature could defy it's bound.
As for you're claim of largest,
It took one dragon to completely wipe out Nargothrond from existance, (except for a small remnant of people) It took a lot of Dragons, few Balrog's and other foul creatures to destroy Gondolin and still a considerable party escaped, even though the enemy took Gondoldrim at unawares.

Inderjit S posted,
Yeah the Noldor who were given the 'privelge' to join Gondolin,
The wonderful Nargothrondians felt it against their pride to attend the deciding battle of Beleriand offically, oh sure! they housed so many of the remnants of Hithlum!
Inderjit Posts,
Wait--what about the Elven-women of Hithlum? They were left in the lurch and were slain
Could you provide any quote concerning the Elvish women? And besides Nargothrondians had no task at hand, If they had wanted they could have atleast saved the Grey Elves of Mithrim and women(sp?) of Hithlum, since they were aware of secret paths in Mountains.
Inderjit S jolts down,
Do you ever see Gondolin open it's doors to Elven refugees? No. They shut their doors on them
The purpose of creating Gondolin was to create a seperate city state that could remain hidden from the eyes of Morgoth and through it stlealth help the Noldor in any possible way. Gondolin didn't want to make itself public; by making it's public It would become just an ordinary Elvish Kingdom about which Morgoth knew and had decisive information about it---while Gondolin was a secret--a troublesome whisper in Morgoth's ears--and a continuous worry for him.
Inderjit Posted,
both kingdoms were 'hidden' yet only one allowed for people to come into it.
Nargothrondians took up stealth after Nirneath,

Grey Annals
Thereafter the Elves of Nargothrond were yet more wary and secret, and would not suffer even Elves to stray in their lands.

The true hope of the Noldor lieth in the west,
the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and cometh from the Sea
Ulmo had hinted that help can come from the West and it was in his plan that some sort of effort should be made to gain the pardon and help of the Valar.
Finrod being such a wise guy should have been aware of it. But did he make any efforts to send any tokenbearers to Valinor?
The answer is no.
On the other hand, Turgon provth wise, and keeping in mind the council of Ulmo,

Grey Annals
he[Turgon=added by Me for clarification] sent secret messengers to the mouths of Sirion and to the Isle of Balar and there they endeavoured to build ships that might sail into the uttermost West on Turgon's errand, seeking for Valinor, there to ask for pardon and the aid of the Valar. But the Noldor had not the art of shipbuilding, and all the craft that they built foundered or were driven back by the winds. But Turgon ever maintained a secret refuge upon the Isle of Balar, and the building of ships was never wholly abandoned.

The people affiliated with both realms.

In this part also, Gondolin has the mastery. For Gondolin had the honor of being the birthplace of Earendil, from the seed of Tuor, who had Ulmo's backing.
And It was Earendil on whom the final fate of elves, men and middle earth depended upon. Gondolin was ruled by King Turgon, whom Melkor most feared, Gondolin was ever, the biggest threat to Melkor, for it possessed the elements of strength, useful stealth and surprise. In it dwelt Morgoth's chief hater's and Morgoth knew that his ruin shall come from Morgoth, if it ever be.
As my friend has already clarified,
No Earendil=No freedom.

Beleg

06-18-2003, 05:08 PM

Inderjit did you edit you're last post?

Lhunithiliel

06-18-2003, 05:35 PM

Beleg was swifter than me in posting his arguments but as i have worked on my points of view on the matter of this debate, here is what I'd like to say:
*******

The topic of our debate runs like this:
” Considering their future kingdoms, and the people that they gathered to themselves. Who was the more effective instrument of Ulmo, in the war against Morgoth, Finrod or Turgon?”
I deliberately highlighted one certain part of the question, because to my understanding it is there where the answer should be looked for and it is this part that is in fact one of the most essential issues of the whole subject we are now debating on, although the subject is large and has many sides.
IMHO,
It is not a question of how good Turgon or Finrod were as kings.
It is not a question of what one did and the other did not.
It is a question of Ulmo’s plan and how important was the role of each one in this plan

This issue has already been viewed briefly by my team-mate gate7ole, but allow me to express some of my thoughts too.

The year is 30-th of the rising of the Sun. A new Age had just begun and it had begun not easily for the Elves in ME. The exiled Noldor were just establishing themselves in the vast new territories, fighting back Orcs and evil creatures, trying to settle conflicts with the local Elves, trying to put up with the quarrels among themselves….

And there came the dream where Ulmo “instructed” two of the most important Noldor, to go and find some suitable places and build there hidden cities.

1/ Point first: Why did he turn to Turgon and Finrod in particular?
The answer is – to the one for his diligence, love and respect for Ulmo and patience (Turgon) and to the other for his wisdom and love for Men and for his tendency to rather find reasonable solutions than catch the arms (Finrod).

Why not send a dream to one of the Feanoreans? Wasn’t Maedhros dignified enough? Weren’t they strong enough as to fulfill his plans?
Wise was the mighty Vala! Too hot-tempered were the sons of Feanor and on the other hand, they were most strongly bound to the Curse Mandos set upon them.

No one else could become a better “instrument” for Ulmo’s plans than these two – both Elven Lords, both - in lead of strong hosts of Elves, both – with great strength and wisdom yet each one of them separately – “valuable” to him in his own way.

The point is that Ulmo:
>> being a God, endowed with the foresight of what was to befall on ME,
>> knowing well the course of the events that lead the Noldor to ME
>> lead by his love for the Children of Iluvatar, both – Elves and Men,
devised a plan for the salvation of the races from the great misfortunes that were to come.

A war between Elves and Men against Morgoth was not the solution!
They could have never gained a victory against the mightiest Vala alone by themselves even if they united.

Strategy was necessary – wise, well thought of and prepared from early times.
And the strategy was simple enough – to make the Valar rise again in united forces against Melkor for the sake and for the salvation of the Children of Eru.
But the Valar were angry and they had shut their ears to the cries from ME! Someone had to “shake” them out of this delirium and this one had to represent BOTH races – Elves and Men!
A Messenger would be most needed for this purpose!

Ulmo just needed “devices” to fulfill this plan and Turgon and Finrod were his perfect choice.

Turgon – he was to bring to the world the Messenger.
Finrod – he was to provide aid to the Messenger’s quest.

tbc

Lhunithiliel

06-18-2003, 05:37 PM

2/ Point Second : How much did Ulmo count on each one of his “devices” ? How much did he take care of the fulfillment of his “instructions”? Which one of these two was more important to him?
This is already coming close to the matter and the purpose of the present debate itself.

If from the explained in Point One above might seem that both – Turgon and Finrod, were equally important in Ulmo’s plans, here we start witnessing the differences. Differences that start speaking for themselves in favour of Turgon as the more important “instrument” in the Vala’s plan.

I can easily see Ulmo’s greater concern about Turgon’s deeds just by remembering that he instructed and helped Turgon more often and kept a close eye on his safety and on the favourable outcome of the building of his city!

First, it was by Ulmo’s lead that Turgon found the hidden valley of the future Gondolin and Ulmo was right there to instruct him.
Tolkien several times explicitly pointed out that Ulmo guided Turgon and was right beside him all the way!
But Turgon remembered the city set upon a hill, Tirion the fair with its tower and tree, and he found not what he sought, but returned to Nevrast, and sat in peace in Vinyamar by the shores of the sea.

And in the next year Ulmo himself appeared to him, and bade him go forth again alone into the Vale of Sirion; and Turgon went forth, and by the guidance of Ulmo he discovered the hidden vale of Tumladen in the Encircling Mountains, in the midst of which there was a hill of stone.
Silmarillion; Return of the Noldor

It has been told how by the guidance of Ulmo Turgon of Nevrast discovered the hidden vale of Tumladen; and that (as was after known) lay east of the upper waters of Sirion, in a ring of mountains tall and sheer, and no living thing came there save the eagles of Thorondor.
Silmarillion; Of the Noldor in Beleriand
Ulmo closely protected even the construction works with utmost vigilance!
… and there they began the building of the city that Turgon had devised; and they set a watch all about it, that none might come upon their work from without, and the power of Ulmo that ran in Sirion protected them

Later, when Gondolin was ready and Turgon and his people were about to leave Nevrast, Ulmo spoke to Turgon again:
. Then Turgon prepared to depart from Nevrast and leave his halls in Vinyamar beside the sea; and there Ulmo came to him once again, and spoke with him. And he said: 'Now thou shalt go at last to Gondolin, Turgon; and I will maintain my power in the Vale of Sirion, and in all the waters therein, so that none shall mark thy going, nor shall any find there the hidden entrance against thy will.
Longest of all the realms of the Eldalië shall Gondolin stand against Melkor. But love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and cometh from the Sea.

And Ulmo warned Turgon that he also lay under the Doom of Mandos, which Ulmo had no power to remove. 'Thus it may come to pass,' he said, 'that the curse of the Noldor shall find thee too ere the end, and treason awake within thy walls. Then they shall be in peril of fire. But if this peril draweth nigh indeed, then even from Nevrast one shall come to warn thee, and from him beyond ruin and fire hope shall be born for Elves and Men.
Leave therefore in this house arms and a sword, that in years to come he may find them, and thus shalt thou know him, and not be deceived.' And Ulmo declared to Turgon of what kind and stature should be the helm and mail and sword that he left behind.
This time Ulmo spoke directly, not in the mist of a dream. The plan he had devised he – the Vala, plainly and openly lay before the wise Elf-Lord Turgon in the very smallest details!!

To me all these facts speak clearly :
Ulmo had planned a more important role for Turgon in his plans than for Finrod.

Why? Why not go and speak to Finrod the wise, Finrod the mighty Lord of all Elves?
For Turgon was to bring to the world THE MESSENGER – the crucial point in the Vala’s plan.

The facts that I have provided and the quote Gate7ole has already given – the prophecy that Turgon was to become the reason for the downfall of Morgoth, speak for themselves.

Yes, Turgon obviously was meant to be the more important “device” in Ulmo’s plan.

Lhunithiliel

06-18-2003, 05:38 PM

Point Three: Here I’d like to address some of the arguments provided by our opponents.

1/ One of the major arguments brought so far was that Finrod provided the Silmaril through helping Beren – the Silmaril without which Earendel’s (the Messenger!!!) Quest would have not had a success.

A lot of quotes have been provided to back up this argument.
It has been several times stated by our opponents that Finrod helped Beren to gain the Silmaril and that this was of utmost importance for the further events.
Is it really so?

There is a simple fact that has been left aside – a fact, however, which IMHO, proves that Finrod’s aid in the gaining of the Silmaril was only in fulfillment of the lesser role he had been given by Ulmo for the final and most important purpose - the downfall of Morgoth.

This is the fact that Beren went out on his quest for the Silmaril NOT for ANY other “high” purposes, but for the only one – most personal – to gain Luthien from Thingol.

The quest of Beren itself was a folly – a folly in the name and for the sake of love and for defending dignity of Beren’s lineage.
No one could possibly say that what he and Luthien did was of no importance! They recovered a Silmaril!!! Right out from Morgoth himself!!!
But it were THEY who did it! NOT Finrod!
And the most important thing is to remember that they did it for their love!

What was Finrod’s role in these events?
Help!
This was what he was expected to provide according to the plan of Ulmo and this is what he provided.

Remember! He knew nothing of Ulmo’s plan! Ulmo had never more spoken to him after that dream and had not explained to him any details of the great plan and had NOT instructed him on his role in all that!

I really can’t see why Finrod’s role in Beren and Luthien’s deeds is so highly praised!
Wise as Finrod was, at hearing Beren’s story, he recognized NOT the importance of Beren’s quest for some high purposes.
All he could recognize was that the Curse of Mandos was at work again and this time it involved the race of Men!
But Felagund heard his tale in wonder and disquiet; and he knew that the oath he had sworn was come upon him for his death, as long before he had foretold to Galadriel. He spoke then to Beren in heaviness of heart. 'It is plain that Thingol desires your death; but it seems that this doom goes beyond his purpose, and thatthe Oath of Fëanor is again at work. For the Silmarils are cursed with an oath of hatred, and he that even names them in desire moves a great power from slumber; and the sons of Fëanor would lay all the Elf-kingdoms in ruin rather than suffer any other than themselves to win or possess a Silmaril, for the Oath drives them.
Then we learn the true reason of his decision to follow Beren:
And now Celegorm and Curufin are dwelling in my halls; and though I, Finarfin's son, am King, they have won a strong power in the realm, and lead many of their own people. They have shown friendship to me in every need, but I fear that they will show neither love nor mercy to you, if your quest be told. Yet my own oath holds; and thus we are all ensnared.'
Oath – what oath? The oath he gave to Beren’s father. And this oath he went to fulfill.

However, wise as he was, Finrod knew what role was given to him in the fate of the world!
Then King Felagund spoke before his people, recalling the deeds of Barahir, and his vow and he declared that it was laid upon him to aid the son of Barahir in his need, and he sought the help of his chieftains

Clear stuff!
As I pointed out at the very beginning of my post (for which length I apologize!):
Turgon – was meant to provide the most crucial “instrument” in Ulmo’s plan – the Messenger = Earendel.
Finrod – was meant to provide aid.

Besides, Finrod realized that he had lost his power and authority among his own people.
And Felagund seeing that he was forsaken took from his head the silver crown of Nargothrond and cast it at his feet, saying: 'Your oaths of faith to me you may break, but I must hold my bond. Yet if there be any on whom the shadow of out curse has not yet fallen, I should find at least a few to follow me, and should not go hence as a beggar that is thrust from the gates.'
Only 10 followed! What an end of a mighty king when the Curse of the High Powers of the world was at work!

The rest was left to fate and circumstances.

To sum it up, Finrod did not play the crucial role in the gaining of the Silamril. Luthien and Beren did!

2/ Another of the arguments considred as crucial by our opponents is the Turin – Glaurung issue.
But wait a minute!
What is so important here for the final purpose???
Turin did not kill Glaurung because of some “special” merit of Finrod or of Nargothrond!
In fact, Turin’s presence and open war against the orcs of Melkor was the reason Nargothrond to be discovered and destroyed!
Where is the positive here?

3/ One last thing before I tire the readers of my post to death ;)

Inder, Gate7ole’s words:
Sure, Nargothrond and Finrod played the most important role in the gaining of the Silmarils. Not Doriath and Thingol who requested it. Not Beren and Lúthien who got it.
What if Huan was never given to Celegorm. That makes Oromë the catalyst of the Quest of the Silmarils! Let’s not be naïve. Many things worked for the Quest of the Silmaril. Finrod played his part only. He will not be given the credit for the whole thing.
are to be understand as a sarcastic view to a imagined “what if”- scenario. Read it carefully and you’ll understand it!
There is NO contradiction!
******

baragund

06-18-2003, 08:27 PM

gate7ole made a good opening post, and Lhunithiliel made a super follow-up but I think they are only addressing 1/3 of the issue at hand. Let's take another look at the question:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Considering their future kingdoms, and the people that they gathered to themselves. Who was the more effective instrument of Ulmo, in the war against Morgoth, Finrod or Turgon?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GoT gave excellent discussions of Turgon as an instrument of Ulmo. (Although by reading Lhunithiliel's post, one could come to the conclusion that it was Earendil, not Turgon, was the instrument of Ulmo.), but their opening post really didn't address "...their future kingdoms, and the people that they gathered to themselves". When one considers the question precisely as it is worded, Finrod was more effective in the war against Morgoth than Turgon.

Both Finrod and Turgon become instruments of Ulmo as described in the following passage from "Of the Return of the Noldor" in the Published Silmarillion which takes place 30 years after the Mereth Atherdad:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But Ulmo coming up the river laid a deep sleep upon them and heavy dreams; and the trouble of the dreams remained after they awoke, but neither said aught to the other, for their memory was not clear, and each believed that Ulmo had sent a message to him alone, But unquiet was upon them ever after, and doubt of what should befall, and they wandered often alone in untrodden lands, seeking far and wide for places of hidden strength; for it seemed to each that he was bidden to prepare for a day of evil, and to establish a retreat, lest Morgoth should burst from Angband and overthrow the armies of the North.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So Ulmo plants the same seed of foresight in both Finrod's and Turgon's mind. The question becomes what do these two do with this foresight and which policy would be most effective in the war against Morgoth.

Turgon, by the guidance of Ulmo, discovers the hidden vale of Tumladen, the site of the city of Gondolin. And because of the "unquiet" that was set in Turgon's heart by Ulmo's initial foresight, he decides to build a new city there, remove his people to this city and adopt a policy of isolation. It should be made quite clear here that Ulmo did not tell Turgon to lock himself and his people in Gondolin, he only guided Turfon to Gondolin's location. Under Ulmo's guidance, he only leaves behind in Nevrast armor and a sword for one person who would bear the hope of elves and men. This isolation extends to all peoples of Middle Earth, not just the Enemy.

Finrod builds a hidden stronghold in Nargothrond as well but he establishes a policy of aiding and abetting the other free peoples of Beleriand, coupled with what I'll call hit-and-run tactics against the forces of Morgoth.

My esteemed colleague Inderjit describes Nargothrond as a refuge of the other elven peoples during the war against Morgoth but I would like to discuss what I think is an even more important contribution to the struggle against Morgoth, his encounter with the first Men to enter Beleriand, which lead to Finrod being dubbed "Friend of Men".

The first three pages of "Of the Coming of Men into the West" in the Published Silmarillion gives the account of Finrod chancing upon Beor's people while he is out on a hunting trip with Maglor and Maedhros (that's the real one, not my debating partner ). This is a classic "First Encounter" sort of situation where so much of how these two races will interact with each other depends on how Finrod conducts himself in this first meeting. You know, first impressions are the the most important. He could have been haughty, like a Caranthir, looking down on this new race as crude and unrefined. He could have been isolationist, like Turgon, who would have simply ignored this new race, leaving them susceptible to corruption by the forces of evil. But no! Finrod engages these new creatures in the most graceful, compassionate, and elegant way possible, by communicating to them through music played on one of the Men's harps. This ultimately had such a profound effect on these Men that the leader of the men begged to accompany Finrod with his people and to remain in the service of of the King of Nargothrond. Indeed, the leader changed his name from Balan to Beor which means "vassal" in the language that these men used at the time. These actions by Finrod are the essence of "considering their future kingdoms, and the people that they gathered to themselves". Compare this to the stick-your-head-in-the-sand approach of Turgon! If Beor's people were found wandering anywhere near Gondolin by Turgon's people, they would have been slain without a thought!

These actions by Finrod set the stage for the good will that evolved between the Men of the Three Main Houses and the Eldar. Without this foundation, none of the other events of Men's heroic deeds in the war against Morgoth would have happened. All the detailed discussions over who did what in the Quest for the Silmaril and the voyage to Valinor would be moot. There may have been none of the alliances between elves and men which proved so crucial in the later events of the ages, if it weren't for the wise and compassionate acts of outreach made by Finrod on that fateful night in Ossiriand.

Elendil3119

06-18-2003, 10:16 PM

originally posted by Lhun
It is a question of Ulmo’s plan and how important was the role of each one in this plan
Exactly…
originally posted by Lhun
to the one for his diligence, love and respect for Ulmo
Which was, of course, reflected later when:
But there they were made captive by the guard of the gate and led before the king. Tuor spoke his embassy to Turgon in the great square of Gondolin before the steps of his palace; but the king was grown proud and Gondolin so fair and beautiful and he was so trustful of its secret and impregnable strength, that he and the most of his folk wished no longer to trouble with the Gnomes and Men without, nor did they long more to return to the lands of the Gods.
:rolleyes: I think our ‘diligent and respectful’ Turgon had become rather uninterested in the Gods by this time. He was proud and overconfident of his strong-hold, so that even when he heard this command from Ulmo, one of the Valar, he refused. Respect for Ulmo indeed.
originally posted by Lhun
Why? Why not go and speak to Finrod the wise, Finrod the mighty Lord of all Elves?
For Turgon was to bring to the world THE MESSENGER – the crucial point in the Vala’s plan.
I fail to see how Turgon brought this Messenger to the world. Turgon was the father of Idril, who married Tuor. I do not see how Turgon is more important in the birth of Earendil than Tuor. We may as well say that Tuor was the most important instrument of Ulmo.
originally posted by Lhun
Turgon – was meant to provide the most crucial “instrument” in Ulmo’s plan – the Messenger = Earendel
Turgon 'provided' the Messenger (in a secondary sense), but his own daughter, the mother of the Messenger, did not even trust him! The point of this is that Turgon's character was flawed as a consequence of his blind faith in Ulmo, and this lead to the death of his people unnecessarily.
originally posted by Lhun
It has been several times stated by our opponents that Finrod helped Beren to gain the Silmaril and that this was of utmost importance for the further events.
Is it really so?
But when the wolf came for Beren, Felagund put forth all his power, and burst his bonds; and he wrestled with the werewolf, and slew it with his hands and teeth; yet he himself was wounded to the death. (Published Silmarillion, ‘Of Beren and Lúthien’)
What if Finrod had not been there? The wolf would have attacked Beren, and most likely wounded him ‘to the death’. Thus, the Quest for the Silmaril would have failed. As has been shown by my team-mates, the Silmaril was absolutely necessary for the Quest of Earendil. Thus, Finrod was of “utmost importance for the further events”. Quoting Inderjit, “what is the point of Earendil when there is no Silmaril”?
originally posted by Lhun
Remember! He knew nothing of Ulmo’s plan! Ulmo had never more spoken to him after that dream and had not explained to him any details of the great plan and had NOT instructed him on his role in all that!
But why then did Turgon later refuse to heed Ulmo?
But love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart
This is exactly what Turgon did, and this is why he rejected Ulmo’s command.
originally posted by Lhun
Oath – what oath? The oath he gave to Beren’s father. And this oath he went to fulfill.

However, wise as he was, Finrod knew what role was given to him in the fate of the world!
Remember, we are discussing who was the more important instrument of Ulmo, whether they realized it or not. So what the Finrod may not have known what his actions would eventually lead to, but that does not make him or his actions any less important!
originally posted by Lhun
Turgon – was meant to provide the most crucial “instrument” in Ulmo’s plan – the Messenger = Earendel.
As I pointed out above, Turgon’s role in the birth of Eärendil was not a primary one. Even if it was, Earendil would have got nowhere without the Silmaril.

gate7ole

06-19-2003, 01:59 AM

Reading all the posts of the worthy opponents, I see no new point raised in favor of Finrod. Only trying to diminish the worthiness of Gondolin. Which? The city that resembled Tirion!
Chapter 15: Of the Noldor in Beleriand
But behind the circle of the mountains the people of Turgon grew and throve, and they put forth their skill in labour unceasing, so that Gondolin upon Amon Gwareth became fair indeed and fit to compare even with Elven Tirion beyond the sea.
If I have to defend Turgon I will do it with pleasure! Just remember the discussion with Húrin at Nirnaeth:
Chapter 20: Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad
Then Húrin spoke to Turgon, saying: 'Go now, lord, while time is! For in you lives the last hope of the
Eldar, and while Gondolin stands Morgoth shall still know fear in his heart.'
But Turgon answered: 'Not long now can Gondolin be hidden; and being discovered it must fall.'
Then Huor spoke and said: 'Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and from me a new star shall arise. Farewell!'
He was not naïve or arrogant. Later, he became prouder and believed still in the defense of this city, but who can accuse someone who saw ALL elvish realms to fall one after the other whenever they openly attacked Morgoth?
And to respond to Maedhros’ post about why didn’t Turgon take the Silmaril himself and make to Valinor, the answer is in Ulmo’s message to him, which of course Turgon remembered:
Chapter 15: Of the Noldor in Beleriand
'Thus it may come to pass,' he said, 'that the curse of the Noldor shall find thee too ere the end, and treason awake within thy walls. Then they shall be in peril of fire. But if this peril draweth nigh indeed, then even from Nevrast one shall come to warn thee, and from him beyond ruin and fire hope shall be born for Elves and Men. Leave therefore in this house arms and a sword, that in years to come he may find them, and thus shalt thou know him, and not be deceived.'
Yes, he had made also some mistakes, but I wonder if there is any elven prince that can be considered flawless.
The only truth about Turgon and his kingdom is that he founded the most lasting realm, which resembled even Tirion, where elves dwelt in bliss and safety and from which came the hope for both Elves and Men. The fact that they avoided open fights cannot be considered a flaw, at least not in the context of Ulmo’s plan we’re discussing here. We said it many times, Ulmo believed not that any weapons could destroy Morgoth.

On the other hand, how did Nargothrond aid the Eldar especially after Firnod’s death? Probably if he was alive, he might play a most important role than Turgon, we just can’t say. But his sacrifise, however noble, did nothing to continue Ulmo’s plan, except this long-discussed Silmaril.
posted by Elendil 3119
What if Finrod had not been there? The wolf would have attacked Beren, and most likely wounded him ‘to the death’. Thus, the Quest for the Silmaril would have failed. As has been shown by my team-mates, the Silmaril was absolutely necessary for the Quest of Earendil. Thus, Finrod was of “utmost importance for the further events”.
Right. And what about the whole chain of events that followed after Finrod’s sacrifise? They aren’t of outermost significance? And what about Thingol’s request for it? That makes him the key character in the Quest for the Silmaril, since there would be no Quest.
It just doesn’t work this way. You don’t isolate a single event from a whole story and attribute to it the significance of the whole story. Finrod was not responsible for the regaining of the Silmaril. Please, find other arguments for us to counter ;) .

The only new thing I heard which gives a new boost at the discussion is bagarund’s reference to Firnod’s assistance to Men.
It is true that Finrod played a most important role in the acceptance of Men in Beleriand. And to go with my team-mate Lhunithiliel here, maybe this was the plan that Ulmo had for Finrod. It was crucial for the development, none can deny it, but eventually it was but a part of the whole plan, which ended in Turgon’s house. And let’s not forget that Finrod helped the Edain much, but he was not alone. Fingolfin and Fingon also accepted them nicely and only the stubborn Thingol was at first opposed to them. Even the Fëanoreans made use of them later.

posted by bagarund
He could have been isolationist, like Turgon, who would have simply ignored this new race, leaving them susceptible to corruption by the forces of evil.
…
Compare this to the stick-your-head-in-the-sand approach of Turgon! If Beor's people were found wandering anywhere near Gondolin by Turgon's people, they would have been slain without a thought!
You seem to confuse Turgon with Thingol.
Chapter 18:Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin
There Turgon the King received them well, when he learned of their kin; for messages and
dreams had come to him up Sirion from the sea, from Ulmo, Lord of Waters, warning him of woe to
come and counselling him to deal kindly with the sons of the house of Hador, from whom help
should come to him at need. Húrin and Huor dwelt as guests in the King's house for well nigh a
year; and it is said that in this time Húrin learned much lore of the Elves, and understood also
something of the counsels and purposes of the King. For Turgon took great liking for the sons of
Galdor, and spoke much with them; and he wished indeed to keep them in Gondolin out of love,
and not only for his law that no stranger, be he Elf or Man, who found the way to the secret
kingdom and looked upon the city should ever depart again, until the King should open the leaguer,
and the hidden people should come forth.
I think this small description is far from Turgon’ s character you described before.

baragund

06-19-2003, 05:29 AM

Gate7ole said in his last post:
You seem to confuse Turgon with Thingol.
regarding my assertion that strangers would be slain if they were caught wandering near Gondolin. I don't think I'm too far from the mark. Turgon's law was stated rather clearly when Tuor and Voronwe were halted by guards as they were trying to enter Gondolin. In "Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin" from Unfinished Tales, we have the following statement from one of the guards.
'Then Voronwe will remember also the laws of his land,' said the voice. 'Since by command he went forth, he has the reight to return. But not to lead hither any stranger. By that deed his right is void, and he must be led as a prisoner to the king's judgement. As for the stranger, he shall be slain or held captive at the judgement of the Guard. '
Compare this, well, xenophobic policy to the leap of faith that Finrod made when he decided to engage the people of Beor. In Turgon's world, anybody who is not one of his people is considered an enemy. I am not aware of any instruction given to Turgon by Ulmo to treat all other peoples this way.

Now let's redirect gate7ole's last reference to Turgon's hospitalilty toward Hurin and Huor. Hurin and Huor were cut off from their comrades during a battle with orcs after the Dagor Bragollach, but they were rescued by two of Thorondor's eagles. The eagles bore them to Gondolin "...which no Man yet had seen." From that point picks up the quote by gate7ole.

Let's stop and thinks about this situation. What is Turgon to do, when two of Thorondor's eagles, emmisaries of none other than Manwe himself, deposits a couple of refugees on his doorstep? You bet he is going to think twice before he blindly follows his own policy of not allowing any stranger to enter his land.

Compare this to Finrod's approach to the establishment and administration of his kingdom. From "Of Beleriand and Its Realms" in the Published Silmarillion:
...and Finrod became the overlord of all the Elves of Beleriand between Sirion and the sea, save only in the Falas. There dwelt the Sindar who still loved ships , and Cirdan the shipbuilder was their lord; but between Cirdan and Finrod there was friendship and alliance, and with the aid of the Noldor the havens of Brothombar and Eglarest were built anew.
This passage goes on to say:
With the aid of the Elves of the Havens some of the folk of Nargothrond built new ships, and they went forth and explored the great Isle of Balar, thinking there to prepare a last refuge, if evil came; but it was not their fate that they should ever dwell there.
Thus the realm of Finrod was the greatest by far, though he was the youngest of the great lords of the Noldor..."

This passage illustrates two things. First, it further identifies Finrod's tendency to build alliances and friendship among the races, that "people that they gathered to themselves" thing central to the debate question. Second, consider Finrod's exploration of Balar. It was on Balar with the aid of Cirdan that Earendil built Vingilot for his famous journey to Valinor. Whoaaaa! Is this coincidence or is it Finrod, acting as an instrument of Ulmo, setting in place alliances and events that would be taken advantage of by Cirdan and Earendil centuries later? Can you hear The Twilight Zone music playing in the background?:)

Maedhros

06-19-2003, 06:21 AM

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
The number of exiles from Gondolin was greater then the number of exiles from other Kingdoms. Besides what has Galadriel to do with the exiles of the Heaven's of Sirion? Which culture would Galadriel represent? The Noldo culture of Tirion? But that was only preserved truly in Gondolin.
Actually, one of the great influences of the Ñoldor intrusion in ME, was the enrichment of the Sindarin tongue, because of their facility to learn it rapidly and their inventiveness in language matters. But because Gondolin was an almost pure Ñoldorian realm, quenya was the language of daily use, so no great advances in the improving of the Sindarin.
How do you know the numbers of the Exiles of Gondolin? How do you know the number of exiles from the other kingdoms? How do you know that the number of exiles of Gondolin is greater than that of the other kingdoms?
Galadriel is a special case. She was the only Ñoldorian princess that came out of Valinor in the revolt of the Ñoldor that remained in ME. She of course was a reservoir of knowledge and wisdom that had long consequences even after the FA.

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
I ask what is Turgon's fault in all this? You seem to suggest that Turgon was wrong in not admitting Húrin to Gondolin. I say that was a very wise move on his part. Gondolin was the last hope of the Eldar, and Morgoth as of yet didn't knew about It's location. Húrin every movement was being watched and If Turgon had sended eagles down to bear Húrin or Elves to take in him, then the location of Gondolin would have been confirmed at the moment. Turgon did what was right; for the better future of all the dwellers of ME.
My question is this then, if Turgon was right in not bringing Húrin to Gondolin, why then did he changed his mind later, and tried to bring him there. Is he half wise then? It appears that he is so.

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
Besides Morgoth would have thrown all of his forces against him to destroy his party, It would have been with great loss and a much, much diminished party that he would have reached Sirion, if at all he would have reached there. And even still they would have never reached Aman.
So Ulmo’s advice and guidance is what foolish? So, Ulmo’s advice to Turgon to built Gondolin was foolish too? That would mean that Ulmo’s sending of Tuor to Gondolin was foolish too because it was his advice too? It must be the Turgon half wise policy then.
Originally posted by
You are basically saying that by bowing to Ulmo's advice Turgon would have been able to,
a. Reach Valinor and call the Valar in 495 F.A
laying aside all other objections/questions, I ask you, without the Silmaril how would Turgon be able to reach Aman?
Who is it again the Vala of the Realm of the Waters? It was the same Vala who had been helping the exiled Ñoldor in ME. The vessels were unable to reach Valinórë because of the obstacles of the Seas, but if you had the blessing of the Vala of the Seas then, those obstacles are no more.

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
Might I give the reaction of Orodeth and the Nargothrondians when Finrod asked them for help in the Quest of Silmaril's!
Scared off by threats of sons of Fëanor!!
Which prevented the destruction of Nargothrond in the Nirnaeth and the prevention of the dead of Beren with Finrod’s life, and instrumental in getting the Silmaril which achieved the salvation of ME, which you point out as being fundamental in reaching Aman?

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
But you are forgetting that Finrod was slain (needlessly) in F.A 464, and that the ruler's after him sadly didn't inherit Finrod's great wisdom, and failed to comply with Ulmo's plan, thus bringing it's own wreckage.
Finrod was slained needlessly, but with his action Beren was allowed to live and the quest was achieved thanks to Lúthien and Huan. (who was brought to Nargothrond by Celegorm). And this is the same silmaril that you point out as being fundamental for a ship to reach Valinórë.
Wasn’t Turgon himself the one who didn’t follow Ulmo’s advice directly? Turgon directly failed to comply with Ulmo’s plan, thus bringing ruin to Gondolin.
Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
In it dwelt Morgoth's chief hater's and Morgoth knew that his ruin shall come from Morgoth, if it ever be.
This doesn’t makes snese. Morgoth was destroyed by Morgoth? Well, I guess that it doesn’t pay to be evil.

Originally posted by Lhun
The facts that I have provided and the quote Gate7ole has already given – the prophecy that Turgon was to become the reason for the downfall of Morgoth, speak for themselves.
Let’s look at this in detail.
From The War of the Jewels: GA
And Ulmo warned Turgon that he also lay under the Doom of Mandos, which Ulmo had no power to remove. 'Thus it may come to pass,' he said, 'that the curse of the Noldor shall find thee too ere the end, and treason shall awake within thy walls. Then shall they be in peril of fire. But if this peril draweth nigh then even from Nivrost one shall come to warn thee, and from him beyond ruin and fire hope shall be born for Elves and Men.

The messenger is of course Tuor. Tuor came to Gondolin in 495 FA. And what is the message of the messenger? To leave Gondolin and go to the Sea. And what does Turgon does with the message? He says, no thanks, I will hide forever in Gondolin.
Originally posted by Lhun
Turgon obviously was meant to be the more important “device” in Ulmo’s plan.
Then why did Turgon didn’t heed the Plan of Ulmo? He had all of the means to deliver the plan of Ulmo and he just wanted to hide in Gondolin forever, then in the end he realizes that he is wrong of course.
From The Book of Lost Tales II: The Fall of Gondolin
But Turgon said: "Evil have I brought upon the Flower of the Plain in despite of Ulmo, and now he leaveth it to wither in the fire.

Originally posted by gate7ole
Yes, he had made also some mistakes, but I wonder if there is any elven prince that can be considered flawless.
Probably the closest is Finrod Felagund.

Originally posted by gate7ole
The fact that they avoided open fights cannot be considered a flaw, at least not in the context of Ulmo’s plan we’re discussing here. We said it many times, Ulmo believed not that any weapons could destroy Morgoth.
You mean the same plan that Ulmo provided which was discarded by Turgon? I thought that Ulmo made his plan for Turgon to follow, not for Turgon to disregard.

Originally posted by gate7ole
You seem to confuse Turgon with Thingol.
Lets see: Thingol was an isolationist, and so was Turgon. Thingol did not even had the courtesy of talking with the non Finarfins of the Exiles (who were the sons of his friend Finwë), Turgon rejected the man who saved his life and Kingdom in the Nirnaeth, but to Turgon’s credit he changed his mind but it was too late. Thingol rejected the advice of his wife Melian, Turgon rejected the Plan of Ulmo. Seems very similar to me.

Originally posted by gate7ole
Right. And what about the whole chain of events that followed after Finrod’s sacrifise? They aren’t of outermost significance? And what about Thingol’s request for it? That makes him the key character in the Quest for the Silmaril, since there would be no Quest.
It just doesn’t work this way. You don’t isolate a single event from a whole story and attribute to it the significance of the whole story.
Hehe, and I thought that the story was called the Quenta Silmarillion, or story of the Silmarils. It is interesting in JRRT works the acts of love through the story. The most notable of them is the story of Beren and Lúthien, and how there union would change the fate of the World. The whole book revolves about the Silmarils, and the fact is that Beren had to gain one to consume his love, and without the aid of Finrod, Beren would have died. The purpose of Ulmo was to achive the pardon of the Valar on the exiled Ñoldor, and ironically Turgon refused the counsel of Ulmo, he rejected it. In order to be the instrument, you have to carry out the plan, if you do not, then you are not the instrument. Because of that, Eärendil could not reach Valinórë until Elwing went to him with the Silmaril.

Lhunithiliel

06-19-2003, 09:13 AM

A few more comments before we bring forward our new points:

Baragund: I think they are only addressing 1/3 of the issue at hand.
It is not that we are not going to address the other two issues, Baragund ;) But imagine how long my post (for example) would be if I went on with them :)
Anyway, I’d like to comment on some of the things said in counter to our arguments:
1/ Baragund: (Although by reading Lhunithiliel's post, one could come to the conclusion that it was Earendil, not Turgon, was the instrument of Ulmo.)
Oh, yes, he was! We can’t expect the Vala’s plan to involve only two elves, no matter how great they were! Many were the elements and the “devices” in Ulmo’s plan and this, btw answers also Elendil’s statement that Tuor was even one of these. Ha! In the case of Tuor I’d say it is more than obvious how Ulmo used the figures on the “chess-board” of his devised plan!
But we are here speaking not about the other of Ulmo’s “marionettes”, but about only tow of them – Turgon and Finrod.
2/ Baragund: The question becomes what do these two do with this foresight and which policy would be most effective in the war against Morgoth.
EXACTLY!!!
But which war? Do you mean the self-destructive-right-from-the-beginning war of the Noldor against Melkor?
I am not inclined to think THIS war meant !
In my post, in “Point First” I commented on Ulmo’s plan and I now see that in fact we agree on it – Ulmo knew Melkor was to be downthrown by war but not a war led by the Elves and Men because it would have been a simple massacre and disaster (as it turned to be!).
The war we should be having in mind is the War the Valar made against Melkor!
And in the light of THIS war, we should take into consideration the role of the two Elven Lords.
3/ Also I see the following subject widely discussed: “Which city was more closed and guarded against visitors?”
Our opponents show that Gondolin was sealed and did not receive anybody while Nargothrond was open and friendly.
Is it so?
First of all, we should not mistake the times!
The realm of friendship and prosperity that you often describe, was Nargothrond from BEFORE the misfortunate two latest wars of Belleriand.
Whith Morgoths victory, the vast territories this kingdom once had, were no more a safe and desirable place for fugitives.
In the times of full destruction and ruin all over Beleriand, Finrod gathered what was left from his people around the hidden city and to enter those regions was no more a pleasant experience and no friendly welcome was to meet the casual passers-by.In fact, the lands around the hidden city were always well protected!
Let’s remember how Beren was received in the lands of Nargothrond EVEN before the great disasters:
From the Silmarillion, Of Beren and Luthien:
Upon all that plain the Elves of Nargothrond kept unceasing watch; and every hill upon its borders was crowned with hidden towers, and through all its woods and fields archers ranged secretly and with great craft. Their arrows were sure and deadly, and nothing crept there against their will. Therefore, ere Beren had come far upon his road, they were aware of him, and his death was nigh. But knowing his danger he held ever aloft the ring of Felagund; and though he saw no living thing, because of the stealth of the hunters, he felt that he was watched, and cried often aloud: 'I am Beren son of Barahir, friend of Felagund. Take me to the King!' Therefore the hunters slew him not, but assembling they waylaid him, and commanded him to halt. But seeing the ring they bowed before him, though he was in evil plight, wild and wayworn; and they led hi northward and westward, going by night lest their paths should be revealed. For at that time there was no ford or bridge over the torrent of Narog before the gates of Nargothrond; but further to the north, where Ginglith joined Narog, the flood was less, and crossing there and turning again southward the Elves led Beren under the light of the moon to the dark gates of their hidden halls.

And now let’s go years after and remember how Túrin and Gwindor were met in these lands:
From the Silmarillion; “Of Túrin Turambar”:
And now they arose, and departing from Eithel Ivrin they journeyed southward along the banks of Narog, until they were taken by scouts of the Elves and brought as prisoners to the hidden stronghold. Thus did Túrin come to Nargothrond.
Well, I see no difference in the attitude of the Nargothrondians to unexpected “visitors” than as it was in Gondolin reagions.
The SAME policy!!
And there is nothing so surprising! The times were perilous!

The point is that to distinguish the two cities on this feature is meaningless as practically there is NO difference in their policy as far as they wanted to stay hidden as they had been long ago devised to be.

A sub-issue: I can’t omit also the point put forward by our opponents that Nargothrond was more active in the Wars of Beleriand than Gondolin.

Turgon knew what was expected from him and his city! He was not supposed to risk it. He was supposed to guard his people and to save in his city what was to be saved from the once glorious Elven might and lore! He was NOT supposed to go to war!
Yet, we should not forget that in fact both the Kings did take part in battles. To what end? To find out that leading a war against an Enemy like Morgoth is a folly that brought only misfortune to their people!

However, Turgon at least held cool reason for much longer time-period!

While Finrod threw his people into war much earlier, hence bringing destruction and downfall of his once mighty kingdom.
I know no one can accuse Finrod for doing so! Dignity and loyalty– at first place!!! Alas! Even he, the wise Finrod, could not recognize the peril of the Noldorian policy of war and even if he did, he did not oppose to it.

I would not accuse Turgon of being unloyal or a coward for not letting his people go to sure death and for protecting the secrecy of his kingdom as long as he could.
I wouldn’t call cool reason treachery, as our opponents seems to tend to call Gondolin’s policy in the Wars of Beleriand.

tbc

Lhunithiliel

06-19-2003, 09:15 AM

4/ A lot has also been said about Turgon’s folly when he received the warning from Tuor – thus accusing him of failing to fulfill the plan of Ulmo.

But in fact the plan had already been carried on!
I can’t speak for the Vala ;) but one is for sure:
Even though not successful till the very end, Turgon did meet Ulmo’s expectations for him.

>> He was to build a hidden city to protect as long as possible the Elven race – he did it.
>> He was supposed to provide all the necessary conditions to preserve Elven lore as high-leveled as it used to be in the Blessed Realm – he did it.
(I will come to the point of the importance of Gondolin later)
>> He was supposed to provide all the necessary conditions for the birth of the Messenger – he was the Messenger’s grandfather!

The point is that it was not Turgon’s personality that mattered much in the general plan of the Vala. Turgon was instructed what to do and he did it, although at the end he almost jeopardized the plan itself by refusing to follow Ulmo’s advice.
Yet the plan succeeded as the Messenger was born and saved for his mission.

Had Turgon ever completely understood his contribution and importance to this crucial point of Ulmo’s plan? I doubt it! This is why he gave to his folly at the end!

But did Finrod realized the real cause of his involvement into the quest of Beren and Luthien? I doubt it too!

The Gods had the power to direct events and lives!
What both kings did was only in fulfillment of the God’s will and their personal behaviour and deeds on this “road” were of no much importance from the point of view of the general plan, as far as the final aim was to be achieved.
Sad, as far as free will is concerned… but true nonetheless !

So, to judge Turgon’s refusal to follow Ulmo’s advice for leaving Gondolin as a failure of the Vala’s plans, we should first of all ask – WAS THERE really a failure?
For Turgon personally – yes.
For Gondolin’s fate – yes.
And even the quote my dear “sonny” Maedhros ;) :D provided:
From The Book of Lost Tales II: The Fall of Gondolin
But Turgon said: "Evil have I brought upon the Flower of the Plain in despite of Ulmo, and now he leaveth it to wither in the fire.
shows that he had understood his own mistake!
But for Ulmo’s general plan – THERE WAS NO FAILURE! (in spite of the difficulties on the road of fulfillment of the plan itself!)
Ulmo got the Messenger he needed ! THAT was the aim! And it was achieved!

5/ Now we come again to comment upon the crucial argument of our opponents, so very often brought by them:

”No Silmaril - no meaning of Earendil’s quest”’ – say you!

Well at first I could also put it the other way around: No Earendil as a representative of both the races – no quest to Valinor, no coming of the Valar to ME, no downfall of Melkor…etc.
Then the recovery of the Silmaril becomes completely void of essence or/and importance!

Yet, our opponents have built the portrait of the valiant Finrod without whose aid the Silmaril would have never been recovered.
I will not argue about the valiant deeds of Finrod , nor shall I refuse the glory of his heroism. A lot of episodes were provided by our opponents to demonstrate this.
So what?
It only speaks of how valiant he was.
From this point onward we could start building so many “What if”-scenarios, that at the end you yourselves will see that in fact the Silmaril, that Earendil needed, could have been recovered in many ways even without Finrod’s presence.

All I see is Finrod, helping the quest of Beren and Luthien. This was his task and he knew it and he fulfilled it!
That’s it!
He himself never aimed at recovering and getting into possession of a Silmaril !!! We shall have to admit this truth!
And let me again remind you of one little extract where Finrod himself speaks about his role in all these events:
… and [color=red]he declared that it was laid upon him to aid the son of Barahir in his need….

6/ A very interesting observation made by Baragund:
It was on Balar with the aid of Cirdan that Earendil built Vingilot for his famous journey to Valinor. Whoaaaa! Is this coincidence or is it Finrod, acting as an instrument of Ulmo, setting in place alliances and events that would be taken advantage of by Cirdan and Earendil centuries later? Can you hear The Twilight Zone music playing in the background?
It IS a very interesting observation, yet a pure SPECULATION. Sorry! No facts to prove that this part of Finrod’s activities, in the times of the prosperity of his kingdom, was a part of Ulmo’s plans.
Let’s stick to facts or otherwise we are in danger of unleashing our imagination and this will not aid us much in deciding the truth about the matter of this debate.

Inderjit S

06-19-2003, 02:18 PM

But you are forgetting that Finrod was slain (needlessly) in F.A 464, and that the ruler's after him sadly didn't inherit Finrod's great wisdom, and failed to comply with Ulmo's plan, thus bringing it's own wreckage

Needlessly? So you except him to tell Beren to take a hike when 1. He had sworn a oath to his father, Barahir, that he would help him at every need, after Barahir had saved him in the Bragollach.

2. His natural instincts, brought on by his wisdom/foresight showed him that his role in the quest for ordained for him, and that he would die as a result of his selfless sacrifice in order to save Middle-Earth. If he had lived- Beren would have died.

failed to comply with Ulmo's plan, thus bringing it's own wreckage.

Yes-and this was it's fate. Look at it this way, Nargothrond falls, Hurin gets the Naglaumir, Hurin brings the Naglaumir to Doriath, Elwe asks the Dwarves to place the Silmaril in the Naglaumir-the Fall of Doriath, Dior re-establishes Doriath, the Second Kinslaying, Elwing flees to the Haven WITH the Silmaril. Do you see the bigger picture now?

Arms may not be the way by which Morgoth can be routed completely but arms were essential in maintaining the soverignity of the Kingdom. Do you think that the Kingdoms should have sit forlornly, sending all the emmesieries to Valinor, sitting idly, hoping for the Valar to come, doing nothing to maintain their integrity and survival. Adeptness in arms were essential for the survival of the races till the coming from the help from the west.

Yea, that’s nice-but I didn't say that Arms weren't in Ulmo's plans, your team-mate gate7ole did. Note my wording, I was merely correcting a insistency and contradictory remark he made. (BTW, thanks for making that post-you saved me some work.)

In area yes, in power no. After the Nirneath orcs wandered freely in the Western Beleriand and in area's within the rule of Nargothrond and Nargothrondians could do nothing to hinder it. Infact in the last few years of it's existance The rule of Nargothrond became limitied to the gorge of Narog and the immediate surroundings, while as long as Gondolin lasted, not one enemy creature could defy it's bound.

Oh my dear Beleg-I must thank you AGAIN for supporting my argument and contradicting Gate7ole's when you say that Nargothrond wasn't very powerful, since Gate comments 'anywhere he might go, Túrin would establish a powerful realm.' (Yeah like his 'Wolf-group') it really wasn't a very powerful realm at all! But I could argue that Nargothrond didn't have the power to get rid of so many Ork's-their numbers were just too large for anyone to deal with.

It took one dragon to completely wipe out Nargothrond from existance, (except for a small remnant of people) I

Yeah-one dragon and a innumerable multitude of Ork's. Remember afterwards, the whole of Beleriand was clear of Ork's-showing how many Ork's their were at the battle. Morgoth had to muster all his strength.

Thus late in the year, having mustered great strength Morgoth assailed Nargothrond

And they were kinda caught by surprise too:

But greater by far was the host of Morgoth then any scouts had told

Plus the fact that Glaurung was one of the if not the most powerful dragon ever, and all the dragons involved in the Fall of Gondolin together may have been no match for his strength. As we can see from the Fall of Gondolin (BoLT 2) and Of Tuor (U.T) Gondolin may have been easier to defend then Nargothrond when under attack, due to the way it was built. Plus the people of Gondolin had a way of escape. (Note also, as Maedhros points out-this was built by a daughter who didn't trust her father-the very man you are arguing for!)

Oh and what about this statement:

And thus the realm of Finrod was the greatest BY FAR Published Silmarillion

Therfore Finrod had the most powerful realm.

The wonderful Nargothrondians felt it against their pride to attend the deciding battle of Beleriand offically, oh sure! they housed so many of the remnants of Hithlum!

Oh-so you wanted them to send a great host into Hithlum to rescue the women, it would have been too late as they were too far away! Surely Gondolin could have done it easier since they were situated closer. But that is not the point-the point is that the men of Fingon who went with Turgon were forced to abandon their wives, sisters etc!

Could you provide any quote concerning the Elvish women?

Beleg-everything doesn't have to be backed up by quotes , sometimes common sense is needed, :rolleyes: Well since not every Elven man in Hithlum was a eligible bachelor one can assume they had wives-wives that they left behind to go to the Nirnaeth, and then abandoned to die when Hithlum was ravaged and Elves were slain, for the most part by the Easterlings!

The wonderful Nargothrondians felt it against their pride to attend the deciding battle of Beleriand officially, oh sure

So you want them to attend a battle in behalf of a group, of which some threatened to slay Nargothrond's closest ally,

Maedhros made no answer for he had now begun to devise a league and union of the Elves; but Celegorm anc Curufin vowed openly to slay Thingol and destroy his people if they came victorious from war, and the jewel were not surrendered of free will. Of the Fifth Battle; Published Silmarilion

And who had tried to kill their king and founder and usurp his throne and bring ruin to the realm by kidnapping their nearest allies princess and forcing her to marry one of them!

Inderjit S

06-19-2003, 02:20 PM

The purpose of creating Gondolin was to create a seperate city state that could remain hidden from the eyes of Morgoth and through it stlealth help the Noldor in any possible way. Gondolin didn't want to make itself public; by making it's public It would become just an ordinary Elvish Kingdom about which Morgoth knew and had decisive information about it---while Gondolin was a secret--a troublesome whisper in Morgoth's ears--and a continuous worry for him.

Yet Nargothrond was hidden for a long time-and it accepted people into it's realm.

Ulmo had hinted that help can come from the West and it was in his plan that some sort of effort should be made to gain the pardon and help of the Valar.

No-read it in the context, by which Ulmo said those words. the Noldor's hope lies in the West-which is true-it did lie in the west, but Ulmo didn't say 'Send some ships of to Valinor' when it was futile to do so. Firnod didn't send any ships because he knew it was futile and a waste of precious lives to do so.

In this part also, Gondolin has the mastery. For Gondolin had the honor of being the birthplace of Earendil, from the seed of Tuor, who had Ulmo's backing.

Yeah, startling revelation. Gondolin had the mastery? Because Earendil was born there?

No Earendil=No freedom.

Yeah and no Finrod=No Silmaril=No point of Earendil=No freedom. :rolleyes: :p

For the satisfaction of Mister Meadhros, I would like to provide Quote's from Grey Annals, NOT a work edited by Guy Kay or Christopher, and I believe is a later work then that of Lost Road.

Yes-but Maedhros was forced to quote form there since Tolkien didn't deal with it elsewhere.

A new Age had just begun and it had begun not easily for the Elves in ME. The exiled Noldor were just establishing themselves in the vast new territories, fighting back Orcs and evil creatures, trying to settle conflicts with the local Elves, trying to put up with the quarrels among themselves

Yeah the oh so many Ork's who were afraid to leave Angband for a long time, the non-existent quarrel with 'local Elves' (Sindar) and that terrible Mereth Arthedad. Oh the poor Noldor! So, so bad for them, I mean all the free land, with no prevelant enemies!

diligence, love and respect for Ulmo and patience (Turgon) and to the other for his wisdom and love for Men and for his tendency to rather find reasonable solutions than catch the arms (Finrod).

Yeah Finrod 'loved men' a race that they hadn't even met yet. Firnod took a more active part in 'catching the arms' (If you mean fighting) then Turgon.

A war between Elves and Men against Morgoth was not the solution!

Look at the whole role of the Noldor in the war:

If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm. Myths Transformed

So another point of the Noldorin exile was to hold Morgoth abay and stop him from destroying Beleriand and M-E. And of course this would have been in Ulmo's plans since his closest ally Manwe was supposed to have taken this in cosideration when 'exiling the Noldor' (With Namo of course, who knew what would happen.)

Even so, and on the grounds of the stories as received, it is possible to view the matter otherwise. The closing of Valinor against the rebel Noldor (who left it voluntarily and after warning) was in itself just. But, if we dare to attempt to enter the mind of the Elder King, assigning motives and finding faults, there are things to remember before we deliver a judgement. Manwe was the spirit of greatest wisdom and prudence in Arda. He is represented as having had the greatest knowledge of the Music, as a whole, possessed by any one finite mind; and he alone of all persons or minds in that time is represented as having the power of direct recourse to and communication with Eru. He must have grasped with great clarity what even we may perceive dimly: that it was the essential mode of the process of 'history' in Arda that evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come. Myths Transformed

Turgon – he was to bring to the world the Messenger.

Exactly-without Finrod's help thus starting everything off Turgon's role was futile.

This time Ulmo spoke directly, not in the mist of a dream. The plan he had devised he – the Vala, plainly and openly lay before the wise Elf-Lord Turgon in the very smallest details!!

Yeah a plan which Turgon convenintly forgot to carry out. Whoops. :rolleyes:

Gonoldin was simply harder to find then Nargothrond. Nargothrond was known to Elwe and was a previous petty-dwarvish realm. What do you want Ulmo to do instruct Finrod on how/where to find a realm, that he knows where it is situated.

Remember! He knew nothing of Ulmo’s plan! Ulmo had never more spoken to him after that dream and had not explained to him any details of the great plan and had NOT instructed him on his role in all that!

Ys-because his own wisdom/foresight meant he knew that this was his role in the war-to assist in the saving of M-E!

are to be understand as a sarcastic view to a imagined “what if”- scenario. Read it carefully and you’ll understand it!

Really! Like Oh-my-god! Wow, hilarious sarcasm. Oh I understand Lhun-I understand that you are defecting from what I saw as a contradiction :rolleyes:

Right. And what about the whole chain of events that followed after Finrod’s sacrifise? They aren’t of outermost significance? And what about Thingol’s request for it? That makes him the key character in the Quest for the Silmaril, since there would be no Quest.

Why-so you can make a adequate countering of the arguments for once? I did not say Finrod was the sole person in helping the Quest (I belive you stated something similair though)
but that if it wasn't for him the quest would have failed.

While Finrod threw his people into war much earlier, hence bringing destruction and downfall of his once mighty kingdom

Finrod never 'threw his people into war'. He went with a sortie after the Barggolach, to save his brothers (Something that Turgon didn't consider, even though he was next to Dorthinion.)

He was to build a hidden city to protect as long as possible the Elven race – he did it.

Yeah he sure 'protected it' when he didn't heed Ulmo's plans and he allowed for it's destruction.

>> He was supposed to provide all the necessary conditions to preserve Elven lore as high-leveled as it used to be in the Blessed Realm – he did it

Eh? Quendi and Eldar tells us that finrod and many other lords of Nargothrond were great scholars.

But did Finrod realized the real cause of his involvement into the quest of Beren and Luthien? I doubt it too!

Well, yes, he knew the war had no hope, and he knew that beren and Luthien's quest would save them.

Ulmo got the Messenger he needed ! THAT was the aim! And it was achieved!

Yeah Ulmo sure didn't want to save all those Elven lives lost due to Turgon's pride/greed in it's fall.

Then the recovery of the Silmaril becomes completely void of essence or/and importance!

Yeah, even though the only reason he got there was because of the Silmaril.

He himself never aimed at recovering and getting into possession of a Silmaril !!! We shall have to admit this truth

A very selfless act, IMO .How many other Elven Kings would pass up the chance to get the Silmaril, instead deciding to die for a greater cause so others could win it? None-thats why the selfless Finrod was Ulmo's perfect weapon here, and why he was chosen.

It IS a very interesting observation, yet a pure SPECULATION. Sorry! No facts to prove that this part of Finrod’s activities, in the times of the prosperity of his kingdom, was a part of Ulmo’s plans

And how can you assume it wasn't since your side claims that all things were set up by the Valar?

Lhunithiliel

06-19-2003, 04:05 PM

THE IMPORTANCE OF THE CITIES

As 1/3 of the subject of the topic concerns the importance of the cities of Gondolin and Nargothrond in the and for the grand plan of Ulmo we should address this issue with care.

The aim will be, I guess, to find out which of these two cities was of greater importance for the final aim – the downfall of Morgoth.

But I also see it important to prove which of them had a greater importance for the preservation of the Elven race in the general course of the historical events in ME in the First Age.
And this, in its turn involves the 2-nd third of the subject of the present debate.

I see no other way except by providing a closer look at each one of the cities.

And as our team defends Gondolin, here I’ll provide a more or less detailed picture of this city. IMO, it is essential to know these details.
One thing is to just state: ”Gondolin was hidden” or “Gondolin was closed”…
It is important to see the city from inside in order to understand its importance.
It is enough to see Gondolin through the eyes of its friends and enemies, through the eyes of its creator – J.R.R. Tolkien and of some critics of his writings, in order to become fully convinced in the greatest importance this city had in the history of ME – an importance which is unmatched by any other Elven city!

I don’t see any need for myself to even provide any comments on what you’re going to read, for what Tolkien wrote about the city speaks for itself!
I have just picked up a few extracts from a few sources.

Lo,
I give you the glory of

GONDOLIN

Location

From the Silmarillion, Of the Noldor in Beleriand:
It has been told how by the guidance of Ulmo Turgon of Nevrast discovered the hidden vale of Tumladen; and that (as was after known) lay east of the upper waters of Sirion, in a ring of mountains tall and sheer, and no living thing came there save the eagles of Thorondor. But there was a deep way under the mountains delved in the darkness of the world by waters that flowed out to join the streams of Sirion; and this way Turgon found, and so came to the green plain amid the mountains, and saw the island-hill that stood there of hard smooth stone; for the vale had been a great lake in ancient days. Then Turgon knew that he had found the place of his desire, and he resolved to build there a fair city, a memorial of Tirion upon Túna.

Name

From HoMe II; The fall of Gondolin:
The City of Seven Names where all who war with Melko may find hope."
Then said Tuor: "What be those names?" And the chief of the Guard made answer: "'Tis said and 'tis sung: 'Gondobar am I called and Gondothlimbar, City of Stone and City of the Dwellers in Stone; Gondolin the Stone of Song and Gwarestrin am I named, the Tower of Guard, Gar Thurion or the Secret Place, for I am hidden from the eyes of Melko; but they who love me most greatly call me Loth, for like a flower am I, even Lothengriol the flower that blooms on the plain.' Yet," said he, "in our daily speech we speak and we name it mostly Gondolin."

tbc

Lhunithiliel

06-19-2003, 04:10 PM

Construction and views of Gondolin:

From Parma Endorion:
Tolkien's vision of Gondolin changed through the years, but in some ways it persisted as a vibrant dream. He never abandoned the idea that it was built on a great hill in the circular valley of Tumladen; that there were many high towers, great fountains, houses built all around, and fields of crops spreading across the valley to feed the city.
The entrance to Gondolin lay through a dried river bed that flowed under the mountains at one time. There were seven gates constructed there by the Eldar: The Gate of Wood, The Gate of Stone, The Gate of Bronze, The Gate of Writhen Iron, The Gate of SIlver, The Gate of Gold, and The Gate of Steel. The first six gates were built when Gondolin itself was built, but Maeglin, Turgon's nephew, built the Gate of Steel after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.

From From HoMe II; The fall of Gondolin:
But Tuor looked upon the walls of stone, and the uplifted towers, upon the glistering pinnacles of the town, and he looked upon the stairs of stone and marble, bordered by slender balustrades and cooled by the leap of threadlike waterfalls seeking the plain from the fountains of Amon Gwareth, and he fared as one in some dream of the Gods, for he deemed not such things were seen by men in the visions of their sleep, so great was his amaze at the glory of Gondolin.
Now the streets of Gondolin were paved with stone and wide, kerbed with marble, and fair houses and courts amid gardens of bright flowers were set about the ways, and many towers of great slenderness and beauty builded of white marble and carved most marvellously rose to the heaven. Squares there were lit with fountains and the home of birds that sang amid the branches of their aged trees, but of all these the greatest was that place where stood the king's palace, and the tower thereof was the loftiest in the city, and the fountains that played before the doors shot twenty fathoms and seven in the air and fell in a singing rain of crystal: therein did the sun glitter splendidly by day, and the moon most magically shimmered by night. The birds that dwelt there were of the whiteness of snow and their voices sweeter than a lullaby of music.
On either side of the doors of the palace were two trees, one that bore blossom of gold and the other of silver, nor did they ever fade, for they were shoots of old from the glorious Trees of Valinor that lit those places before Melko and Gloomweaver withered them: and those trees the Gondothlim named Glingol and Bansil.

Importance and purpose:

These are rather comments by various characters in the books as well as of Tolkien himself as a narrator of the story of Gondolin. I have also included an outer opinion, too.

From HoMe II; The fall of Gondolin:
There he (Tuor) heard concerning that city of Gondolin and how unstaying labour through ages of years had not sufficed to its building and adornment whereat folk' travailed yet; of the delving of that hidden tunnel he heard, which the folk named the Way of Escape, and how there had been divided counsels in that matter, yet pity for the enthralled Noldoli had prevailed in the end to its making; of the guard without ceasing he was told, t