Judgment--Round 3: Periaur vs Elves/Dwarves.

[Beleg]

Greeting's All.

Here is the judgement thread for the Debate held between the teams of Periaur and Elves/Dwarves.

The judges are as follows,


1. Beleg_strongbow (Host--Tolkienology)

2. The-Elf-Herself (Guild of Outcasts)

3. Ancalagon (Guild of Ost-in-Ehdil)

4. baragund (Guild of Scholar's Hall)

5. Ithrynluin (Independent)


A poll is included, but would not account as an offical vote.

Other members are also welcome to post their views concerning the debate.



Thanks.

[Scatha]

When will the judging finally start?

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Scatha
When will the judging finally start?

Well when you asked the question the judging hardly even BEGAN, so a little patience would be due. I'll post my judgement soon.

[The-Elf-Herself]

I guess I'll be the first to post my judgment. First of all, let me say that this was a very interesting topic and both sides did well in debating their case. In my review I'll be paraphrasing the points I thought had the most relevance.

The GoP opens with a good argument, blaming Manwe's blind spot in being unable to discern evil, but in doing so not even allowing himself to consider the possibility. Raised some interesting questions

The GoE/D counter with a sort of confusing argument stating that Manwe was trying to protect the elves from Melkor, but they acknowledge his shortcoming in allowing Melkor free roam among the elves in Valinor

The GoP then bring up that the opposing side gave a concession that Manwe had a blind spot, but didn't give any evidence to back up their claim of him heeding the feelings of Ulmo and Tulkas. Good point.

The GoE/D then state that Manwe didn't want to cause panic among the elves. As the have already conceded that perhaps it was Melkor who had insinuated any sort of panic with his lies, this argument is weak. However, they introduce a fair rebuttal, saying that Manwe didn't have any solid proof against Melkor, only his own misgivings, so he couldn't take any action against them. This would have held more weight had the earlier defense of his silence been stronger.

The GoP refutes this by saying that had Manwe told the elves of the coming of men, it would have denied Melkor the opportunity to be the sole information source of this and rendered his plans of corruption null. They also give good evidence of the consequences of Melkor's lies. They then bring to light the unfavorable monikers the Elves gave to men due to these lies and note that if Manwe had given them knowledge about men, the rift betwen men and elves would not have existed.

The GoE/D come back saying Manwe couldn't possibly conceive of evil. This was brought up before and refuted, rendering it weak.

The point I thought the GoP brought against this that was most effective was their statement of Manwe being considered innocent as a small child bizarre.:D In their closing, they bring up that although Melkor caused the poisoning of Valinor, Manwe failed to prevent it. They then point to the good relationship between the Avari and men, who weren't exposed to Melkor's lies. They finish with in essence saying that the road to this bad decision was paved with good intentions by Manwe.

The GoE/D then close with a summary of their argument. However, they do note that Manwe's decision "was not perfect" even though it "wasn't a bad one." This is confusing, perhaps it would have been better to never concede that at all. They also say that the blame properly falls on Ulmo's and Tulkas's shoulders, as they failed to warn Manwe of their misgivings. While this could have been a potent argument, it comes too late and without enough evidence. Plus, earlier they had already stated that he had heeded the warnings of those two, so this new statement ruins consistency.

I had a difficult time deciding, but my vote goes to the Guild of the Periaur.

[baragund]

First of all, let me thank GoP and GoE/D from the bottom of my heart for being not so long-winded as my fellow Scholars and our esteemed colleagues at the Tolkienologists.;) I pity the poor souls who have to plow through the tomes we wrote in our debate!

The position argued by GoE/D was exceedingly difficult in my opinion. As I read through the debate question, I found myself wanting to level the playing field by making sure GoP was not committing the error of "20-20 hindsight" and even lowering the bar for GoE/D to casting a reasonable doubt on the Periaur's arguments as opposed to proving their own case.

Still, Snaga posted a concise (Thank God!) opening statement that the Elves and Dwarves were not able to counter, nor were they able to offer a alternative explanation. I kept asking myself "Why wouldn't Manwe tell the Elves about the coming of Men, and GoE/D just couldn't offer anything plausible. There were some allusions to "trouble for the Elves by the coming of Men", and "the information would have caused more harm than good" and that the information of the coming of Men would somehow cause panic among the Elves, but there was no explanation how any of that would happen.

One argument the GoE/D could have made was to stress the basic differences between Elves and Men, how Manwe could have considered them incompatible, as evidenced by the Third Theme of Music in the Ainulindale, and a desire to keep the two races separated, but I must admit that would not be an easy argument to make, either.

Nonetheless, I have to say the Periaur won this debate decidedly. I sure hope GoE/D gets a better draw with the next debate question!

[Scatha]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
Well when you asked the question the judging hardly even BEGAN, so a little patience would be due. I'll post my judgement soon.


Sorry Ith, but I posted my question, when the judging thread was open for nearly two days, if you check the dates at the bottom of them.

[Ancalagon]

Please forgive my delay in responding but I am still on holiday and will only be snatching a few minutes at a time on the forum! I shall reply in full upon my return next week, so please be patient.

Beleg, send me another PM to remind me:)

[Ithrynluin]

I enjoyed reading this debate - it wasn't too packed with a multitude of quotes, but still offered enough food for thought.

***

Manwë's words were twisted by Melkor only later on, and we should not doubt that his intentions of not telling the Elves about Men were pure, like Omnipotent_Elf says. Manwe not being able to comprehend evil is a tricky thing, but it helped the GoE/D a little in their struggle.
But, as Legolam and snaga said, what exactly were Manwë's reasons for keeping the coming of Men hidden from the Elves?

***

by Legolam
So, because of Manwe’s failure to tell the Elves of the coming of Men, Melkor had the chance to corrupt the Elves against Men.

Manwë could not have known this. He was devoid of evil, and being completely and totally good, he would of course hope for (or even be sure of) Melkor's full recovery to good.

***

… they called them also … the Usurpers, the Strangers

by Legolam
So the Elves were already discriminating against Men, because of their ignorance of the race of Men, brought about by Manwe’s failure to tell them of the Second-born’s coming.

A good point.

by Legolam
In my opinion, this ignorance created a rift between the races, which was never fully healed, even by the Third Age and the passing of the last of the Elves into the West.

I don't think we should go so far as to say that the rift 'never fully healed'. Elves and Men being alienated after the Last Alliance cannot be blamed on Manwë. But this is only a side note.

***

by snaga1
Accountability is not at issue. Responsibility is not an issue. Blame is not at issue. People can mistakes without it reflecting on them. It is still a mistake. Example: a child has never been taught how to add up. You ask him/her what two plus two equals. He/she says five. Is the child wrong? Of course! Is the child to blame? Nope. Is the child less wrong, because its not to blame? Unfortunately not.

This quote was one of the deciding factors that helped me pick the winner. The line separating an action being (in)correct and whether the person who committed this action was (not) to blame, may be a thin one, but it's still there.

***

by snaga1
In the next post Legolam goes on to show how in fact the decision leads to the estrangement of the two kindreds. Whereas in Middle Earth, the Avari who didn’t get exposed to this, are getting on very well with Men.

I strongly disagree. The Noldor got along with Men JUST as well, or even better, than the Sindar or the Silvan Elves did. We don't get to hear many tales of the Avari at all, let alone any mingling of theirs with Men.

***

At the beginning of the debate both teams held a relatively equal argument. However, the Elves/Dwarves steadily began to lose their grasp (a lack of participation being not the least of reasons for this!), but Scatha tried to salvage his team by a last reply. It was a good attempt and he raised several interesting points (Tulkas and Ulmo being to blame for keeping Manwe in the dark regarding Melkor). Unfortunately I don't think this was quite fair enough as the debate was at an end, and some more time might have been needed for the Periaur to reply and for the Elves/Dwarves to further develop their argument. That is why I give my vote to the British lads and lasses. ;)

[Nóm]

I am dying for all the judgements to be in so I can give my view!

Oh this topic, I adore it beyond belief!

(Is this spam? Someone report this post so we can find out ;))

[Ithrynluin]

No it's not spam. ;)

It's a pity you weren't one of the judges in the first place. It's always good to have judges that are passionate about a certain topic!

[Nóm]

Sure it is spam. It was a useless post.

Now let's keep chit-chatting back and forth until we (oops - brb got an Instant Message from ithrynluin on MSN) get in trouble for junking up the judgement thread.

;) Muahahaha!

(*whipsers* 'I didn't really have an IM... shhh')

[Scatha]

Frankly Nom, I'd love to hear what you have to say on this debate. :)

[Nóm]

I am not a judge in this.
The Host have given me permission to post my thoughts on this debate.

The Periaur's arguements were reasonable and strong, with an excellent opening post that really came to say it all for their side. Those points were not brought into doubt.

They also had a much easier side to argue. This is in my opinion the most one-sided debate I have saw at TTF. I have thought often about the question: Why didn't Manwe tell the elves of men, or what moment in time was he waiting for to tell them?
I have found no answer that satisfies me, or even comes close to it. I also think the GoE/D side could only be won with excellent speculations and suppositions.

While GoE/D brings up what I view as one of the strongest possible points for the side they had to argue: 'Manwe did the best according to what he knew', this is not enough to make Manwe's decision right. It alone can hardly cast doubt on the side of Periaur.

GoD/E suggests that Manwe kept this from the elves out of thinking they might wish to return to Middle-earth. Periaur argue this shouldn't have been a bad thing, and that the elves may have returnd to Valinor anyhow.

GoD/E also uses Manwe's inabilty to comprehend evil as an excuse for his apparant folly.

I think the biggest miss for the GoD/E side of the arguement is they failed to make a point of showing and then further exploring that Manwe was doing the will of, closest in thought with, and working most directly under Iluvatar. This point would justify an assumption that there was some high reason beyond our knowledge for the withholding of the information. For the debate, it would have been good to offer some ideas as to what that reason might have been. But they never had a chance of being able to explore this as far as I know. I think (correct me if I am wrong) the GoD/E team have not read enough of the writings that give information that can best be use for that purpose. Knowledge of some other writings would have better armed the team who had to argue this most difficult side.

I'd like to hear the opinions of our topic guys as to why this was possibly correct of Manwe. I also wonder which books GoE/D have read, and if they ever had a chance.

[Scatha]

Well Nom, thanks for the fair view of this debate.

I have read the Sil, the hobbit and LOTR. Neither of these give sufficient material to even start to counter the opening post by the Periaur, even though I gave it a good try.

With my last post and closing statement, I tried to cause more doubt, into an indeed rather one-sided debate. Despite my (several times) reading of the books listed above, we basically lost this debate from the opening post onwards.

There hardly was a way for us to win this debate, due to it's one-sided nature.

[Beleg]

My vote goes to Periaur.

Periaur started very well. Their opening post was consise and too the point and adressed there points adequately, but It wasn't the best post ever and their were points which could have been utilized by the GOD/E but weren't utlized.

Originally posted by Snaga
Once you consider that possibility, it comes to this: what reason is there for NOT telling the elves about the coming of Men? I can't think of one. Keeping this knowledge from the elves DOES sound like dishonesty. Luckily I don't have to find a reason: I will leave that to the imagination of the Elves and Dwarves. But Morgoth used his imagination to come up with a bad reason, and it was utterly predictable that he would do so. Manwe failed to forsee this, because of his own blind-spot and because he failed to act on the warnings of his fellow Valar.

This I feel was the paragraph that contained the gist of Periaur's arguement in the debate and the future posts made by Legolam and Legoman all revolved around these arguments.

Now It was time for Elves/Dwarves to counter Periaur's post.

I have to say that Scatha's first post wasn't the bestest counter post Yet it raised points of interests, although I think that Scatha failed to define them properly.
Posted by Scatha
With Melkor's influence still roaming in Arda, where Men would awake, he tried to stop the elves from going there, thus trying to protect the elves from the influence of Melkor.

This I feel was a weak element in Scatha's post and was grasped upon and utilized by the Half-olds.

I don't think that In the first post Elves/Dwarves clarified their viewpoint properly. They failed to back their claim with any kind of material or theory.

Snaga countered by grasping upon Scatha's mistake.
And In his response to the second point made by Scatha, Snaga provided what I felt was the strongest point of Periaur.
Posted by Snaga
Yes, that was Melkor's doing... but Manwe gave him the opportunity.

Omnipotent elf in his posts tried to counter some of the side points Periaur's had made in their post. Yet he failed to adaqutely adress Periaur's main claim, "By not telling the Elves, Manwe gave Morgoth the chance to create a rift".

Legolam's post was the best post IMO for it explained, in a great detail, their main point and possible faults of Manwe's action.

Meanwhile during these posts, the debate whether Manwe was correct or not in pardoning Melkor continued as a Side-issue.

Beth presented a Quote from BOLT1...but Snaga's answer to it was perfectly legtimate.

The last posts of both teams were good, but afterthe debate I knew without any contemplation, whose arguement had swayed me most.
It was Periaur. They presented their case better then Elves/Dwavres, were most consise and were also more sharp in picking up Elves/Dwarves mistakes and using them for their own benifit.

I have heard people say that this topic was very one-sided.
It might have favored the Periaur's a little bit, but to say It was completely one-sided would not be fair IMO.


My vote though goes to Periaur.

[Ancalagon]

Arrgghhh! I have just lost an entire judgement I had almost completed on this debate as my computer has crashed:(

Anyway, the outcome was a win for the Periaur, not because there is any easy or difficult side in this particular debate, simply that they made the stronger arguements. For the GoE, the position that Manwe knew nt evil in his heart was not substantial enough, more focus could have been given to 'not interfering in the fates of the Children of Eru', 'knowing most closely of all the Valar the thoughts and intentions of Eru' and whether this was a defining reason for his choices! Whether he might have been subject to the same fates and dooms and therefore unable to make such an informed decision as it may have been placed in his heart by Eru himself!! There are many avenues open to you in this debate that you did not grasp and the Periaur being more shrewd with every debate did make it any easier.

Anyhoo, this was not anywhere near all that I wanted to add, but I am angry and frustrated at losing my original post, so well done to both (Elves, you have come on leaps and bounds since your first debate with OiE) but the winners are the Periaur for a superior, highly organised defence. Snaga, you need to let your team-mates do more work!

[Snaga]

I hereby grant them permission!:D

Anyway a couple of judges have pointed to Legolam's posts as being critical... we're not a one-man band!

Thank you to the judges for their votes, and to our opponents for a good contest.:)

On the question of fairness I didnt find it too difficult to pick which side to debate. But its hard to know in retrospect whether the opposite side could have won the day... there's usually some strange logic that you can use.;)

[Legolam]

Legolam's post was the best post IMO for it explained, in a great detail, their main point and possible faults of Manwe's action Yay me!! No-one's ever said I was a good debater! Seriously, though, I had fun with this one as i didn't know the topic beforehand, and thanks to the Elves/Dwarves for giving us a run for our money :)

~The Lush ;)

[omnipotent_elf]

*curiously*
what money was that?