The Scholar's opinion of the LOTR Films

[baragund]

There is a specific reason I am putting this post here rather than the Movies Section. I humbly request the powers that be to allow this thread to remain here, for a little while anyway.

After weeks of nagging, I broke down and allowed my 9 year old to watch New Line's FOTR with me. Trying not to shock the poor guy too much, I skipped over the more graphic fight scenes. Still, he got pretty bug-eyed when he saw the Balrog.

But I'm going off on a tangent. It was the first time in a while that I watched the movie and it got me wondering what serious Tolkien scholars (in the general sense, not just our Guild:)) thought about the films so far.

As for me, I thought Peter Jackson and New Line did a wonderful job of bringing Middle Earth to life. It was remarkably close to the vision of Middle Earth I had in my mind's eye. The only differences I had were I pictured the elves to be a lot less solemn, more fun-loving; and I pictured the orcs to be not so hideous. Visually, I found both films simply stunning. Also, it was the films that caused my current streak of interest in JRRT's writings. Before the films came out, I hadn't picked up the books for around 8 years.

I enjoyed FOTR also for the treatment Mr. Jackson gave the story line. I was able to forgive his omission of Tom Bombadil and the other tweaks he made to the plot because he simply could not cram everything into a film of any reasonable length.

On the other hand, I think Mr. Jackson messed with the story line of TTT more than he needed to. Here, he not only omitted things that would make the film too long, but he changed things around that, to me, didn't add a whole lot to the film, even if you are not a Tolkien scholar. Faramir's ability to resist the allure of The Ring when Frodo revealed it to him seemed to me some of the best drama in the story. I really don't understand why Mr. Jackson decided to have Faramir cave in to the temptation and then take Frodo and Sam on some detour to Osgiliath. Also, Mr. Jackson really mangled the whole story line with the Ents and I am hoping that the extended edition of the DVD will restore enough material to make the Ents part of the film at least sort of coherent.

What do my fellow Scholars think? Did Mr. Jackson walk on water? Do you want to burn him in effigy? Or somewhere in the middle?

[Maedhros]

I enjoyed FOTR also for the treatment Mr. Jackson gave the story line. I was able to forgive his omission of Tom Bombadil and the other tweaks he made to the plot because he simply could not cram everything into a film of any reasonable length.
I was ok with FOTR, there were some changes that I was not too thrilled with, the omission of Glorfindel, but overall it was ok.
Now TTT, I really disliked it. The hell is wrong with PJ. I was really dissapointed with the Faramir thing, the other alliance of elves and men, Theoden not following the advice of Gandalf.
Shameful. At the end of the movie, I was looking at my watch to see when it would end.

[BlackCaptain]

I picked Something Else... Well I've given it alot of thought and:

I don't mind Tom not being in it. It would've been nice to have him, but the limitations on time just don't allow it, and he was home to one of the more un-esential themes of the books. However if that scene with the falling stair-case in Khazad-Dûm was totaly un-nesescary. They could have used that time for the Barrow Wights, which was more essential to the Eerieness of the plot. It was an adventure! Mabey without much help towards the story-line, but a great adventure none-the-less.

And all of the excess scenes with Arwen were just terrible. They could've gone thru the entire movie giving Aragorn quick visions of her and still got thru to us that they were in love.

Well... I'm not going to go through everything that PJ changed, but my point is:

Some of the things that he did were just so achingly un-nesecary and so innacurate that he can't use the excuse "You can't go EXACTLY by the book." The change of Faramir's mind and the Entmoot's descision was a perfect example. They did not go by the books AT ALL, and used just as much time as if they were to do it the right way. It's just totaly innacurate and unacceptable.

But I don't want to hurt PJ or anything... While I'm mad at him for making up complete BS about not going by the book, then goes and completely changes characters around and give lines to people they aren't suposed to be given to, it just makes me mad. The ONLY reason to have done that would have been to build suspense for better reviews.

One can praise PJ for so beautifuly bringing ME to life, and I will. It amazes me how acurate all of the locations are. That took hard work. But when it comes down to the stoy and actualy bringing the story to the viewers right, PJ just missed, and it wasn't on accident

I don't see why so many people complain about Tom Bombadil not being in the movie. I really don't mind. But when he adds bogus love scenes just to boost raitings, and takes away from the story, it bugs me. Mabey that's why I'm mad the Barrow Wights weren't in the movie. Leaving one thing out is ok... but when you leave two out because you spent all of your extra time on action scenes and love scenes, it'll bug me.

[Elendil3119]

I also picked Something Else.

FotR was good considering the limitations, but I did have a beef with one thing: the removal of Glorfindel. Arwen was not a warrior elf like PJ made her out to be. Tolkien says somewhere (HoMe 10?) that elven women would fight in time of need, but there was no need for Arwen to go and 'rescue' Frodo. Just about any male elf could have done it, and it should have been Glorfindel. Besides that, I thought FotR was great. :)

TTT, on the other hand, strayed unnecessarily far from the storyline, with results that there were many holes left in the theatrical version. So many holes, in fact, that I don't even regard it as a good movie apart from the books. Hopefully the EE will be better, though I doubt PJ can redeem himself with only 30 minutes of extra time. We shall see about RotK...

[Nenya Evenstar]

Hmm . . . here is my humble testimony. :D

In the fall of 2001, I was extremely excited to hear about FotR being made into a movie. I had been reading the books since I was about 8, and I adored them. I picked them up again and read them all before the release of the first film, and when I saw the movie I was stunned. I will always say that PJ did an absolutely wonderful job with FotR! That movie gives me the chills!

You can imagine my excitement when TTT came out. I was so extremely excited to see the epic continue, for I thought that PJ would continue on the path he had been on. However, when I got to the movie theatre, what started out as a good movie quickly turned sour. I can remember this growing feel of disgust in my stomach as I watched TTT, and then, when Faramir said, "A chance for Faramir Captain of Gondor to show his quality," and in my mind I automatically recited, "Not if I found it on the road would I take it. . . ." (or something similar ;)) and then I heard Faramir saying from the screen "The Ring will go to Gondor!" My mouth fell open in disbelief and I stared at my brother, gaping. I was literally shocked. Other things had built up to that point, but that was my breaking point. I have so many pet-peeves with that film . . . grrrr!

The thing with me though is that I do not mind deviations from the story line as long as they keep what I see as the true goodness behind Tolkien's works (and as long as I can see a conceivable reason for them). Like I was saying in a different thread, as a reader of Tolkien we know there is true good and we know when the characters mess up. There is no room for halfway good characters who can get away with lying and cheating and bickering. In FotR the characters were true, and this was the reason I loved it. In TTT, however, this truth behind the characters was lost. We saw Arwen deciding to forsake her promise to Aragorn to save herself, we saw Elrond trying to convince his daughter to save herself because of his own pain, we saw the Ents make a selfish decision because the war was "not their war," we saw insulting scenes where Gandalf, Legolas, and Aragorn fight and never come to an agreement with Theoden. We also see instances where Theoden, who was so extremely brave in the books, gives up entirely. And then we see Faramir forsake the goodness that was in his heart for greed and lust of the Ring. Where has the integrity of Tolkien gone? This is the heartbreak to me . . . the alliance of Men and Elves did not even bother me, because there was no loss of integrity. It's these underlying things that were missing that just rip me apart. I see very little hope for PJ to redeem himself. I must admit that when I go into the theatre for RotK I will be going in with a rather pessimistic attitude. What I saw in TTT was Tolkien without the things that make people love Tolkien. It was made instead into a film devoid of principles and truth . . . I truly think that the Professor would be disgusted.

[baragund]

Nenya, I think you hit the nail right on the head. Mr. Jackson captured the spirit of FOTR beautifully but he just mangled TTT. I would love to hear his thoughts on why he felt he needed to mess with the story so much.

I must say I am rather pessimistic about how ROTK will turn out. Oh, I'm sure it will be visually stunning like the other two but there is an awful lot of ground to cover in the last installment and I am afraid that there will be some parts of the book we all hold dear that will be edited to make it fit into a 3 hour movie or mangled to make it supposedly more marketable to a wider audience.

I wonder if anybody at New Line looks at any of these web sites, and takes our feedback to their management?

[Elendil3119]

Great post, Nenya.
The thing with me though is that I do not mind deviations from the story line as long as they keep what I see as the true goodness behind Tolkien's works (and as long as I can see a conceivable reason for them).
I agree with this. Bombadil and the Old Forest needed to be cut because of time restraints: I can understand that. But the whole Aragorn-falling-off-cliff sequence in TTT was completely unnecessary. It added nothing to the storyline, and it was a complete waste of screen time that could have been used to show the Huorns at Helm's Deep. (Where did the 8,000 odd remaining orcs go? :rolleyes: )

I also am pessimistic about RotK. I'm sure they'll do a great job with making the battle of the Pelennor and the destruction of the Ring etc. look 'cool', but I can't see how they will be able to fit all of the remaining storyline in a 3 1/2 hour film. It might be possible if they extended it to 4 hours, but even then I think they left too much to pack into RotK. Hopefully some of the loose ends left in TTT will be explained in the Extended Edition, though I'm afraid that they will waste the 30 minutes on trivial things and not expand on some of the greater parts of the storyline. We shall see...

[Nenya Evenstar]

I agree with you completely on Aragorn, Elendil! I don't see any necessary reason for that part . . . I wasn't too happy about that in the movie theatre either. It was mostly just the fact that Arwen and Aragorn didn't agree about where Aragorn was supposed to go . . . that whole thing bothered me!

I'm pessimistic too. :( Baragund, I've also often wondered if anyone on the movie staff ever looks in places like this to see the main consensus from Tolkien fans. I don't think they'd like what they find!

Ah well, such is life! :p

[Eöl]

I saw a quote from Peter Jackson once saying something along the lines of "People will completely understand why we chose to cut Shelob from the first movie, where we will end on The Two Towers is perfect."

How can he say that?!? Frodo being taken captive and Sam falling unconscious at the doors would have been a perfect ending. The thing that bothered me most though, is the addition of unnecessary elements in the story. The love between Arwen and Aragorn was given way too much of a sensual feel, and the Elves at Helm's deep were not necessary at all. FotR simply removed some things because of time constraints, and the plot advanced easily without Tom Bombadil. TTT, on the other hand, added things that made no sense and had no point at all. Why would viewers enjoy the movie more with a selfish Faramir, or a cowardly Theoden? There is no answer to those questions.

[Elfarmari]

I also chose 'something else'. I agree that the films did a great job of depicting ME. As Nenya and others have also said, I do not like the unnecessary plot and character changes. The one major problem I had with FotR was with the Frodo-Arwen scene. In the book, while Glorfindel does save Frodo (Frodo is on Glorfindel's horse, and Glorfindel drives the Nazgul into the water), Frodo is given a chance to show his strength of character. Faced by the Nazgul and weakened by his wound, he still has the courage to face them and order them to return to Mordor. Unlike in the movie, Tolkien's Frodo does not have repeated scenes of him moaning in anguish after being wounded. This is one character change I didn't like in either movie. I am sure there is a way Arwen could be given a larger part without making Frodo look like a weakling. . .
Had I seen the Two Towers without ever reading the books, I think I might have liked it a lot. However, knowing the story and characters as Tolkien intended them, I could not stand the changes Peter Jackson introduced. Faramir is one of my favorite characters, and I was very angry to see him portrayed as selfish, not the noble, honorable character I admired. Aragorn and Arwen's decisions also upset me, and I didn't see any reason for Aragorn's apparent death. . .

One of my friends suggested that the changes were made to make the characters seem more 'real'. At least IMHO, Tolkien was not writing a story with characters who would seem 'real' today. Especially today meaning 2003. In Tolkien's ME characters were noble, true love was possible, and sacrificing your immortality for love without second-guessing happened. People made decisions for the greater good, not just for immediate advantages. Faramir saw the evil of the ring and did not wish to take it, and Aragorn was willing to wait for the best time to reveal his lineage, meaning he was willing to endure scorn and contempt. Arwen and Aragorn did not 'date' as people do today, they fell in love more or less at first sight, and felt their fates intertwined. These things do not seem very 'real' today, but that does not mean they would make a bad movie!

[Kelonus]

TFOTR and TTT's were great! I understand why some of you say PJ screwed TTT's somewhat, but look at it this way if he couldn't do it the exact way, would he have done it worse, from how it is now, which is good enough?

[Nenya Evenstar]

One of my friends suggested that the changes were made to make the characters seem more 'real'. At least IMHO, Tolkien was not writing a story with characters who would seem 'real' today. Especially today meaning 2003. In Tolkien's ME characters were noble, true love was possible, and sacrificing your immortality for love without second-guessing happened. People made decisions for the greater good, not just for immediate advantages. Faramir saw the evil of the ring and did not wish to take it, and Aragorn was willing to wait for the best time to reveal his lineage, meaning he was willing to endure scorn and contempt. Arwen and Aragorn did not 'date' as people do today, they fell in love more or less at first sight, and felt their fates intertwined. These things do not seem very 'real' today, but that does not mean they would make a bad movie!This is why the books are so wonderful . . . we can all learn from them, as they shine with an inward truth. :)

Kelonus, PJ could have done better, IMO. That is one of the frustrating things about TTT. It has such potential! Some parts still give me the goosebumps! Look at the Storming of Isengard! Look at the culture of Rohan! Look at the speach that Sam gives to Frodo in Osgiliath! It has such potential, and I think PJ could have made it wonderful. Only he chose to twist . . . so he chose worse over better.