Judging: Round 3 Scholar's Hall vs. Tolkienology

[Chymaera]

Congratulations to the Guild of Scholar's Hall and to the Guild of Tolkienology.

You have taken the question I had formulated for you and ran!

I could not be more pleased with the resulting debate.:)

I am sure that you will understand that the judging will require deep deliberation so patience will be needed. :D ;)

The Judges for this Round are:

The_Swordmaster for the Guild of Elves/Dwarves

Rhiannon for the Guild of Outcasts

Aerin will be the Neutral judge

Wonko the Sane for the Guild of the Periaur

And Chymaera for the Guild of Ost-in-Edhil :D

For the Judges please do not feel rush to come to a decision, but you should make as much effort as the contributing debaters:)

I would suggest that you print it out, and read it that way (( 99pages off the printer!! ))

[Chymaera]

Just to let you know. I should have my judgement posted late tonight or early tommorrow.

Thank you for your patience so far.:)

This might be harder to due then I thought(I want to do justice to the whole work)

[Rhiannon]

Well, that was a fascinating debate. Congratulations to both teams for your excellent arguments!

Both teams had strong opening statements, and articulated their arguments well during the body of the debate.
The Scholar's extremely effective closing arguments are what swayed my opinion, however; and so, by only a hair, I give my vote to the Scholar's Hall.

[Aerin]

When I agreed to help judge this debate, I had no idea how hard it would be to choose between the two teams and their well-stated arguments. I echo Rhiannon's statement: Congratulations to both teams!

Both the Scholars and the Tolkienologists were very convincing in their arguments, and made many strong points. It was difficult to read the debate and not be swayed, to either side, by the clear arguments presented by both sides. I believe, however, that my vote must go to the Guild of Tolkienology for their convincing (if not succinct ;)) argument.

[Chymaera]

And when again thirty years had passed, Turgon son of Fingolfin left Nevrast where he dwelt and sought Finrod his friend upon Tol Sirion, and they journeyed southward along the river, being weary for a while of the northern mountains; and as they journeyed night came upon them beyond the Meres of Twilight beside the waters of Sirion, and they slept upon his banks beneath the summer stars. But Ulmo coming up the river laid a deep sleep upon them and heavy dreams; and the trouble of the dreams remained after they awoke, but neither said aught to the other, for their memory was not clear, and each believed that Ulmo had sent a message to him alone. But unquiet was upon them ever after, and doubt of what should befall, and they wandered often alone it untrodden lands seeking far and wide for places of hidden strength; for each was bidden to prepare for a day of evil, and to establish a retreat, lest Morgoth should burst from Angband and overthrow the armies of the North.

The Silmarillion: Of the Return of the Noldor
Considering their future kingdoms, and the people that they gathered to themselves. Who was the more effective instrument of Ulmo, in the war against Morgoth, Finrod or Turgon?


I first of all want to congratulate both teams on their performance in this debate. I had spent most of a week formulating that question for you. And 2 weeks judging it! You have justified the faith I had in you to give it the attention it deserved. I thought that I had you comparing apples and apples. And that the question covered a significant part of the Quenta Silmarillion, which I felt was necessary to make both sides of the question as equal as possible.


All notes in italics are my own observations and understandings that I formed while reading this debate.

I started to do a point by point dissection of the debate and found that that will not work and be done before the end of the tournament:)

So I will try to round up the MAJOR points from both teams and work from there.


Scholar's Hall: for Finrod and Nargothrond

Finrod found and welcomed the Three Houses of Men to Beleriand. And facilitated the settlement of the Haladin in Brethil.
Finrod's important part in Beren's quest for the Silmaril
And that the recovery of the Silmaril would promote the overthrow of Morgoth
Nargothrond welcomed Celegorm and Curufin, and this brought about the joining of Lúthien and Huan, which was another important component in the Quest.
Nargothrond acted as a refuge before and after the Bragollach.
for each was bidden to prepare for a day of evil, and to establish a retreat,
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Finrod was the Great Unifier. Bringing together Elves, Men, and Dwarves to battle Morgoth. Even trying to reconcile with the Sons of Fëanor (Welcoming Celegorm and Curufin and their people to Nargothrond.)

I also note that Finrod found out about the Caverns of Narog from Thingol after Finrod related his dream to him. This is where he established Nargothrond.



Tolkienologists: for Turgon and Gondolin
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Ulmo had a much different idea of fighting Morgoth then the Noldor had. His hope was not in arms, since he knew that Morgoth was undefeatable by the Eldar alone.


Gondolin survived and became the last realm to defend its land against Morgoth. It was the last place where the Noldor could rest safe. We should not forget also that it was the place where much of the lore of the Old Days was preserved.
Now when Turgon learned of the breaking of the leaguer of Angband he would not suffer any of his own people to issue forth to war; for he deemed that Gondolin was strong, and the time not yet ripe for its revealing. But he believed also that the ending of the Siege was the beginning of the downfall of the Noldor, unless aid should come; and he sent companies of the Gondolindrim in secret to the mouths of Sirion and the Isle of Balar. There they built ships, and set sail into the uttermost West upon Turgon's errand, seeking for Valinor, to ask for pardon and aid of the Valar;
Gondolin was the place of birth for Eärendil and Turgon was his grandfather. Through Eärendil, came the final attempt to gain the help of the Valar and it succeeded. It was the ending point of Ulmo's plan, the conclusion and the bringing of salvation
Ulmo appeared to Turgon numerous times, showing him the location of Gondolin, and helping to protect it, and telling of the signs he should leave in Nevrast that he should know that Tuor was Ulmo's.




I have read the debate (multiple times J) and I have reviewed the book and I have looked for missed arguments.


'Hear the words of the Lord of the Waters!' said they to the King. 'Thus he spoke to Cirdan the Shipwright: "The Evil of the North has defiled the springs of Sirion, and power withdraws from the fingers of the flowing waters. But a worse thing is yet to come forth. Say therefore to the King of Nargothrond: Shut the doors of the fortress and go not abroad. Cast the stones of your pride into the loud river, that the creeping evil may not find the gate."'
Orodreth was troubled by the dark words of the messengers, but Túrin would by no means hearken to these counsels,
The Silmarillion: Of Túrin Turambar
This was Ulmo's warning to Nargothrond and this would have been a good response for the Tolkienologist against the Scholar's argument that Turgon ignored Ulmo.


The one mistake that I think that Turgon made while he ruled Gondolin is that he let his sister Aredhel leave the kingdom. And compounded this mistake by letting her return with her son Maeglin, the Bane of Gondolin. The Exile of Aredhel in the first place would have solved this problem. (Of course I had a very bossy little sister myself, so perhaps I am bias)J;)

I was looking for the Scholar's to bring up this point in some form. And was disappointed when the only mention of Maeglin came in the Tolkienologists closing post just to dismiss it.

As I am typing this, the debate is a close to even as a debate can be.
I could vote for a draw and walk away and feel that I had judged the debate fairly. Each post was seductive and persuasive but the one post that has finally swayed me comes from baragund:


Originally posted by baragund
Finrod, on the other hand, was busy doing the mundane things of building a community, of creating fellowship with other Elven societies like Thingol in Doriath and Cirdan in Brithombar and Eglarest. He reached out to the other free peoples. We already established the bedrock relationship with Men, but don't forget the Dwarves as well! Inderjit and Maedhros touched on this but let me expand a little on this. From "Of the Return of the Noldor" in the Published Silmarillion, there is the description of how Finrod reaches out to the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains, seeking their aid in building Nargothrond, and then in the construction of the Nauglamir. One does not entrust the construction of your capitol and the creation of the most precious heirloom of your kingdom to just strangers. A good bit of outreach had to have taken place and a relationship established first.

These are the events that are not sexy and they don't make exciting reading in a novel, but without Finrod doing his darndest to hold together the community of peoples in West Beleriand, there would not have been much for the Valar to save. If Earendil's voyage is the church steeple, then Finrod's accomplishments are the bedrock on which the church sits. Without that bedrock, that foundation, the church will fall over and collapse.

Oh, I can't resist one bit of point-counterpoint. Lhun indicated I may have gotten carried away by my imagination engaged in too much speculaiton when I established a link between the Noldor's exploration of Balar and Cirdan's settlement of that island after the fall of Gondolin. But take another look at the passage I quoted. "...they went forth and explored the great Isle of Balar,
thinking there to prepare a last refuge, if evil came..." (Emphasis added).

Doesn't that sound a lot like the first communication to Finrod and Turgon by Ulmo? And doesn't it sound a lot like the later instruction that Turgon received from Ulmo when he was directed to Tumladen?

My vote goes to the Guild of Scholar's Hall

If I had full foresight I would have seen that any fault in this debate come from the question.
In hindsight the question was phrased wrong. But it was a Catch-22 situation. Both teams surpassed this problem and have given the best debate in the tournament (in my unbias opinion ;):D)

If parts of this appear incoherante it is because I have written this over the last 2 weeks and cannot edit it again.

[Elendil3119]

So, are we going to call this a 2-1 win for the Scholars? ;)

[Chymaera]

Our last two judges are even now working on the debate and have indicated to me that they will be posting their judgements in the not too distant future.;)

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Elendil3119
So, are we going to call this a 2-1 win for the Scholars? ;)
:mad: :mad: :mad:

Elendil!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

[Elendil3119]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
:mad: :mad: :mad:

Elendil!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:
Whoa there, wraith! :D Twas simply a subtle joke designed to remind the last two judges that their judgements are overdue. ;)

[Aulë]

Could Wonko and SM please hurry up with their judgements?
This debate is holding up my scoreboard :)

[The_Swordmaster]

I would first like to apologize for my lateness in judging for this debate. I would like to thank you all for your patience.

Secondly I would like to, congratulate both The Guild of Scholar's Hall and The Guild of Tolkienology on a superb job debating. But I do find that one guild had a more convincing arguement. That guild is The Guild of Tolkienology. I thought they had a better argument and beaten the Scholar's Hall very slightly. Once again I would like to congratulate both guilds on a outstanding job.

[Wonko The Sane]

Alright, first of all I apologise for taking so long here to pass my judgement.
I've not only been sick but swamped with about a million papers to write for school.
And though I read the debate and made my decision the thought of writing out the kind of post I usually make in my judgements was so daunting I kept putting it off.

In order to save time now (It's 4:30 and I'm writing a paper on Pope, Fielding, and Milton) I'm just going to post the team I voted for. Any questions as to why can be directed to me later and if I find the time I'll post a more extensive reasoning.

I like, Rhiannon, was swayed a lot by the Scholar's closing post, and the convincing if often multiply-posted views the Tolkienologists put forth, but to me there was more conviction and a greater overall strength of argument for the side of Finrod and the Scholar's Hall.

My vote goes to the Scholars. This is mainly because I was unfamiliar with the Silmarillion and it's stores therein and coming from a perspective without any prior opinion or knowledge I felt the Scholars did the better job of winning me to their side.

So my vote goes to the Scholars. Congratulations to both teams on your efforts. This was the hardest debate I've judged in a long time. :)

Congrats!