A skeptic's view of Christianity (debate between Thôl and Eriol)

[Celebthôl]

Here is why i think Christianity is illogical...

An all powerful God Kills the entire planet because they are "They had become wicked and disobedient towards God: deserving of death." in the most stupid way possible...

Lets pull out an old fav for this:

"Many that live deserve death, and some that die deserve life, can you give it to them?"

If a human who is supposibly "not as high as God" (in any sence) can think this up, then im pretty sure that God can aswell, and i can guarantee that he sticks to it :rolleyes:

Next point:

The so called God that you believe in, condemns babies before they are even old enough to realise what "sin" is, all because some moron of a guy ate some apple.

Im gonna be blunt in answer, any God that is going to condemn like that can go screw himself and i dont want to go to his heaven it would seem like hell!

The bible requires miracles to work, my belief does not, no which is more believeable?

Why should we have to work to get to God? Where did this idea come from?

(WOW this was a lot (sorry), but they are questions and situations that have been bugging be for a while :rolleyes: )

~ Thôl ~

(also, i am no opener)

[HLGStrider]

Is this just for you and Eriol or can I jump in. . .? I'll jump in and then this can be deleted later if you don't want me (If it is only for you and Eriol, it might be better suited for PM).


If a human who is supposibly "not as high as God" (in any sence) can think this up, then im pretty sure that God can aswell, and i can guarantee that he sticks to it

Well, if a human thought it up and isn't as high as God and God said something different, then I would say God is right. You're arguement depends on Tolkien being more right than God.

It also didn't stop Gandalf from killing evil-doers when they were harmful. Gollum was apparently, at this time, harmless (as was Saruman when Frodo showed him mercy). So we have to assume that the men that God punished were also harmless, that they were weak, pitiful things who would've just gone on deserving death without harming the ones who were good (Noah and his family). This was probably not the case.

While these men existed good was not possible on earth. Man deserved a chance to start again. Really, it was quite merciful of God. He wiped out the bad people, who probably would've eventually destroyed themselves anyway, violence was very common in this time and highly glorified (if you read a few chapters back). This gave the human race the ability to start again.

The so called God that you believe in, condemns babies before they are even old enough to realise what "sin" is, all because some moron of a guy ate some apple.

Actually, here we are dealing with the age of accountability arguement. . .According to Christian beliefs children who are too young to know right from wrong are not accountable eternally for their actions but it is the duty of parents to teach them right and wrong and one of the greatest sins to make a child do wrong or to teach them to do so. I don't know what the age of accountability is (the age that a child can die "unsaved" and still be saved before due to the fact that he was too young to understand), but I am pretty sure that by the time the child has reached that age they would've already started sinning so original sin isn't that big of arguement.

The bible requires miracles to work, my belief does not, no which is more believeable?

And why are miracles illogical? By their very nature they are hard to believe, but if you have an all powerful God (which you acknowledge in your belief system) why is it unbelievable that he would use his power? I find it more unbelievable that a powerful God would not use His power than that He would use it.

God uses miracles mostly to proove His power. Mostly he uses normal, natural methods.

If you look at the times miracles are used in the Bible they are normally to prove something. Jesus used miracles to prove he was the Son of God. Moses used miracles to prove to Pharoh that God wanted him to let the Isrealites go. God used miracles to bring the Isrealites to his side when they wanted to rebel in the desert and were starting to doubt Moses was their God appointed leader.

Miracles are proof of God, and if God can make miracles (if he's all powerful he obviously can) it is not illogical that he would use them. . .

Why should we have to work to get to God? Where did this idea come from?

This isn't a Christian belief. All we have to do in Christianity is BELIEVE and accept Christ. Belief isn't a work. It is laying yourself at God's feet and saying, "Save me." Then God saves you. Not much work at all. . .It is easy enough that children can be saved. I think it is harder for people to be saved because our inborn pride wants us to save ourselves and not be dependent on God. We want to work for it and don't believe that we don't have to.

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by HLGStrider
Well, if a human thought it up and isn't as high as God and God said something different, then I would say God is right. You're arguement depends on Tolkien being more right than God.

It also didn't stop Gandalf from killing evil-doers when they were harmful. Gollum was apparently, at this time, harmless (as was Saruman when Frodo showed him mercy). So we have to assume that the men that God punished were also harmless, that they were weak, pitiful things who would've just gone on deserving death without harming the ones who were good (Noah and his family). This was probably not the case.

While these men existed good was not possible on earth. Man deserved a chance to start again. Really, it was quite merciful of God. He wiped out the bad people, who probably would've eventually destroyed themselves anyway, violence was very common in this time and highly glorified (if you read a few chapters back). This gave the human race the ability to start again.



Actually, here we are dealing with the age of accountability arguement. . .According to Christian beliefs children who are too young to know right from wrong are not accountable eternally for their actions but it is the duty of parents to teach them right and wrong and one of the greatest sins to make a child do wrong or to teach them to do so. I don't know what the age of accountability is (the age that a child can die "unsaved" and still be saved before due to the fact that he was too young to understand), but I am pretty sure that by the time the child has reached that age they would've already started sinning so original sin isn't that big of arguement.



And why are miracles illogical? By their very nature they are hard to believe, but if you have an all powerful God (which you acknowledge in your belief system) why is it unbelievable that he would use his power? I find it more unbelievable that a powerful God would not use His power than that He would use it.

God uses miracles mostly to proove His power. Mostly he uses normal, natural methods.

If you look at the times miracles are used in the Bible they are normally to prove something. Jesus used miracles to prove he was the Son of God. Moses used miracles to prove to Pharoh that God wanted him to let the Isrealites go. God used miracles to bring the Isrealites to his side when they wanted to rebel in the desert and were starting to doubt Moses was their God appointed leader.

Miracles are proof of God, and if God can make miracles (if he's all powerful he obviously can) it is not illogical that he would use them. . .



This isn't a Christian belief. All we have to do in Christianity is BELIEVE and accept Christ. Belief isn't a work. It is laying yourself at God's feet and saying, "Save me." Then God saves you. Not much work at all. . .It is easy enough that children can be saved. I think it is harder for people to be saved because our inborn pride wants us to save ourselves and not be dependent on God. We want to work for it and don't believe that we don't have to.

You can jump in :)

With Gandalf it was either him or them, that makes it different, with God he killed defensless people for no reason

So what happens to all these people that died? Good isnt ever possible, there is no good or bad even nowadays...
Why not let them destroy themselves? God has all the "time" in the Universe to wait.
Why kill them in that way? Why not click his fingers and restart them?

Ok i have nothing to come back at this with :o (i think it was Roman Catholick)

Because in my belief, God refuses beyond doubt to not interfier with our lives, that is a real God
Why should he have to proove his power at all?

Yes Jesus performed miracles but not in the way the Christians believe and teach.
It is illogical that God would use miracles, why should he?

Why should you have to throw yourselves at his feet and beg to be saved? Im not going to a God who wants me to do that, that is what a tyrant would do, NOT an all loving all forgiving God.

[Elendil3119]

Why should we have to work to get to God? Where did this idea come from?
Isaiah 45:22 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.


Why should you have to throw yourselves at his feet and beg to be saved? Im not going to a God who wants me to do that, that is what a tyrant would do, NOT an all loving all forgiving God.
Because we are all fallen sinners, and in need of salvation.
Romans 3:10-18 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

[HLGStrider]

What's Roman Catholic? (I'm Baptist. . .Eriol is Catholic, so maybe he can tell me).

He used miracles to prove who he was. If someone comes up to you and preaches things that you think are good, then you think he is a good philosopher. If that person is really the son of God and wants to prove it, what does he do? He can't just say, "I'm the son of God." Most people won't believe him. Miracles will prove it to most people. Of course, he could snap his fingers and make them believe it, but then we lose the freewill and choice. They had no choice but to believe he was the son of God so they had no faith.

You're going on the assumption that there is no right and wrong. I believe that there is. That God made rules, just like your parents make rules. These rules are partly to protect us (Don't run out in the street because you will be hit by a car.), partly to stop us from hurting others (Don't hit your little sister), and partly to please him which was one of the things we were made to do (Give mommy a big kiss).

To live apart from God's rules is to face disorder, terrible consequences, and spiritual harm.

Most of God's rules are pragmatic. You aren't to steal because in an orderly society if people steal you get disorder.

As I said, God uses miracles to prove that He is God, the way we show ID to prove we are who we say we are. A lot of people needed miracles to believe. Some still do.

Why in your belief system doesn't he interfere? Why would you want a big powerful guy just sitting there watching? Not much point to it.

Why should you have to throw yourselves at his feet and beg to be saved? Im not going to a God who wants me to do that, that is what a tyrant would do, NOT an all loving all forgiving God.

Why should we have to ask someone to give us something? Why can't we just take it?

Let's say there is a man who owns all the gold in the world, and he realizes that people need gold to survive. Then he puts up a sign that says "FREE GOLD: ASK AT THE FRONT GATE" so that he can help the other people.

A man passes by on the street looking for gold. He sees the sign but quickly grows indignant:

"WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO ASK FOR GOLD? I'LL JUST TAKE WHAT I WANT!" So he climbs in the back gate to steal the gold.

This man could have Gold by just asking but since he climbed in the back gate he didn't find the gold and got very mad the stingy owner of the gold.

Was the owner stingy just because he wanted to give away gold instead of have it stolen from him?

Salvation doesn't belong to us. It is Gods. He created it. He is offering to give it to us. The only condition is for us to ask.

[Celebthôl]

God does NOT care that we Sin he is ll forgiving whether we want him to or beg him to or not, and i refuse to beg to be forgiven for something i havent done, and God does NOT want you to at all a Tyrant would! NOT our God, if God wanted us to beg for forgeness then he sucks and i hate him (see ur God now wants me to beg to be forgiven, mine does not)

[HLGStrider]

A list of what God hates includes a proud look. God hates pride because it drives a stake between him and men.

"I don't need God. Who does God think he is telling me I need to accept him before he'll accept me?"

You didn't answer my gold analogy.

You're assuming that God is all hunky-dory with sin (I don't know if Hunky-dory is acceptable language. . .it means a-ok). He hates it. He wants to clense us from it, somethign we can't do ourselves.

Why should God accept us if we won't accept him?

Which is what you are doing. Rejecting him and his offer to save you.

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by HLGStrider
What's Roman Catholic? (I'm Baptist. . .Eriol is Catholic, so maybe he can tell me).

He used miracles to prove who he was. If someone comes up to you and preaches things that you think are good, then you think he is a good philosopher. If that person is really the son of God and wants to prove it, what does he do? He can't just say, "I'm the son of God." Most people won't believe him. Miracles will prove it to most people. Of course, he could snap his fingers and make them believe it, but then we lose the freewill and choice. They had no choice but to believe he was the son of God so they had no faith.

You're going on the assumption that there is no right and wrong. I believe that there is. That God made rules, just like your parents make rules. These rules are partly to protect us (Don't run out in the street because you will be hit by a car.), partly to stop us from hurting others (Don't hit your little sister), and partly to please him which was one of the things we were made to do (Give mommy a big kiss).

To live apart from God's rules is to face disorder, terrible consequences, and spiritual harm.

Most of God's rules are pragmatic. You aren't to steal because in an orderly society if people steal you get disorder.

As I said, God uses miracles to prove that He is God, the way we show ID to prove we are who we say we are. A lot of people needed miracles to believe. Some still do.

Why in your belief system doesn't he interfere? Why would you want a big powerful guy just sitting there watching? Not much point to it.

Why should we have to ask someone to give us something? Why can't we just take it?

Let's say there is a man who owns all the gold in the world, and he realizes that people need gold to survive. Then he puts up a sign that says "FREE GOLD: ASK AT THE FRONT GATE" so that he can help the other people.

A man passes by on the street looking for gold. He sees the sign but quickly grows indignant:

"WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO ASK FOR GOLD? I'LL JUST TAKE WHAT I WANT!" So he climbs in the back gate to steal the gold.

This man could have Gold by just asking but since he climbed in the back gate he didn't find the gold and got very mad the stingy owner of the gold.

Was the owner stingy just because he wanted to give away gold instead of have it stolen from him?

Salvation doesn't belong to us. It is Gods. He created it. He is offering to give it to us. The only condition is for us to ask.

He shouldnt have to proove who he was.

Jesus uses miracles to proove what humans can become, yes we can all perform miracles we just havent awoken to it yet, we are all in the process of learning.

There is no right or wrong.

God made no rules, ever, humans made rules, if God made rules we would stick to them no matter what because they would touch us spiritually.

Do we all follow the 10 commandments 100% no not one person has ever done that and no one ever will.

He wont interfier because if he did it defeats the purpose of our lives, we live to learn, we learn to awaken, we have chosen to forget him and we must learn (but only by living our lives) who he is again, if he interfiered you see it is rendered obsilete.

He forgives unconditionally, we dont have to ask beg or sneek anywhere (even if we did sneek we still get it), may i point out

'FREE GOLD: "ASK" AT THE FRONT GATE'

We shouldnt have to ask, if he sees the world needs gold he will give it out without having to be asked.

Salvation is Gods yes, but he gives it UNCONDITIONALLY, this means we dont have to ask beg or anything else, it is ours whatever...

Now let me ask this, whos belief sounds better now?

[HLGStrider]

He shouldnt have to proove who he was.
No, he shouldn't have had to from a ideal point of view. Humans should've just believed and recognized him. However, we are falible and didn't recognize so he met us on our terms for our sake.

You make a lot of statements. Now you need to prove them.

There is no right and wrong for instance. I've heard this a lot and normally the only reason people can give for it is "We can't prove it" but this doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I can't prove there is a God. You can't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt anything. It could all be a dream. It could all be a holoprogram. We could all be in the matrix! You can't prove anything. That doens't make it any less real.

Why shouldn't we have to ask? If someone has something I want can I just take it if it belongs to them? Why do I have a right to do that? So that man is greedy? Very harsh view. Most people will give to a begger but still will have that begger locked up when he steals from them. Think of the difference.

How do you know God made no rules?

Mine still sounds a lot better. Yours sounds very proud and very arrogant, actually. You sound like your trying to shove yourself down God's throat:
take me as I am on my terms without question or I will not believe in you.

Parents love you but they make rules. They'll spank you if they go bad, and after awhile, sometimes, the most loving thing a parent can do for their kid is to throw them out on their ear. . .even if it doesn't seem loving at the time.

I suppose you think the father of the prodigal son was stingy because he didn't run after his son and beg him to come back and take all he owned rather than let the son learn his lesson?

You seem to think God owes you something. I really don't think he does.

[HLGStrider]

You know, it is almost funny, but very few of these arguements are dealing with "logic" in the traditional sense. Most of them are emotional or moralistic with a tinge of bias on both sides.

[Celebthôl]

OK people suck, but our teachings teach two different things...

(You bin watchin to many movies :D)
But the matrix is so VERY close to what our real life is...there is an outside conciousnes (sp) and we are in it and are unware of it.

Im not saying you dont have to ask, but im saying it makes no difference if you did.
You cannot steal forgivness and whatever from anyone, so any ammount of stealing wont help here.

He said he didnt!

You choose to make it sound like that, but really yours just sounds humble and weak as though you should fear God and not love him. I speek like i do because I am equal to God, so are you everybody is, because we are all God.

Parents contol their childrens wills by doing that and it is somthing that i dont and will never believe in, its like if God came down and spanked us because we did a "bad thing"

God owes me nothing and i owe God nothing we are equal, where do i seem to think he owes me somthing


(If your going to ask how can we be God, then think about this, God is everything and nothing, therefore he is the computer you are on the food you eat the toilet you sit on, and yes YOU!)

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by HLGStrider
You know, it is almost funny, but very few of these arguements are dealing with "logic" in the traditional sense. Most of them are emotional or moralistic with a tinge of bias on both sides.

LOL i was thinking the same, but this is where i want the thread to go :)
Hey you changed ur picker :D its not a cat :)

[Eliot]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
Parents contol their childrens wills by doing that and it is somthing that i dont and will never believe in, its like if God came down and spanked us because we did a "bad thing"

You know, I was spanked all my life, until about three years ago. I'm not hurt, I'm not angry, and it taught me not to do things. It's not going to hurt your kids mentally, and it'll only leave your rear-end a little tingly for a couple minutes anyway. So, I'm glad I was spanked.

[Elendil3119]

The Bible says about spanking children that
Proverbs 22:15 Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

[Sarah]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
God does NOT care that we Sin he is ll forgiving whether we want him to or beg him to or not, and i refuse to beg to be forgiven for something i havent done, and God does NOT want you to at all a Tyrant would! NOT our God, if God wanted us to beg for forgeness then he sucks and i hate him (see ur God now wants me to beg to be forgiven, mine does not)

You don't need to beg forgiveness from Him. You don't even need to ask for it. He loves you even if you don't love Him back. He forgives you for your sins, He loves you more than you could ever imagine.

[Athelas]

When Jesus saved Mary Magdalene from stoning, there was no miracle; just a man forcing the mob to face up to their own inhumanity. She did not wash his feet with her tears and dry them with her hair because she was impressed by a miracle. He opened her heart with love, courage, and mercy. THAT is a greater miracle than parting the Red Sea.

Namaste

[Eriol]

Ok, first of all -- everyone is welcome in this thread, in spite of the title :D

"Roman Catholic" and Catholic mean almost the same thing, as almost all the Catholics you are likely to have met (including me) belong to the "Roman rite" of the Catholic Church. There are other rites (Copta, greek, things like that). But all Catholic rites are, well, Catholic :) -- i.e., they follow the same doctrine. The differences are in rituals and traditions (with a small "t"). For instance, the Greek Catholic rite is exactly like the Greek Orthodox (for all of you who have seen "Big Fat Greek Wedding", you know what I'm talking about), but Greek Catholics accept the authority of the Pope, which is almost the only doctrine separating Orthodox and Catholics.

Now, for the subject at hand.

Thôl, let's see what we agree on before we zoom in Christianity, ok?

Let me see -- you agree that there is a God, and that he is All-Powerful, All-Good, All-Knowing, right?

But then again, you think that this God = Everything... right?

Christians would not agree with that. They believe that God created everything, and sustains everything's existence through his Will -- but not that He IS everything. That's called "pantheism" (believing that God IS everything).

So this is the first hurdle, the essence of God, before we begin to examine Jesus Christ. Who is right, pantheists or monotheists?

So I ask you a question. Is there evil?

(I know your answer... but let me enlarge this question by including in "evil" all of your "bad" words -- sick, for instance. You once said rape is "sick". What is the difference between evil and "sick"?)

So -- is there evil, or "sick-ness", or "wrongness", or "falsehood"?...

I'll wait for your answer. Think about it.

[Celebthôl]

Firstly, that whole spanking with the "rod of correction" is absoloutly digusting, and i now hate ur version of God so bitterly now! :mad:

Anyways...

Well my belief which isnt easy for most to grasp is that, God is everything and he is nothing, he is up and he is down, he it left and he is right, he is what you call "bad" and "good", that is the first thing you have to grasp here...

I will tell you what causes rap (right from God himself)

"In any society where producing offspring at a young age is not concidered "wrong" - because the tribal elders (the oldest and wisest) raise them and there is, therefore, no sence of overwhelming responsibility and a burden - sexual repression is unheard of, and so it rape, deviance, and social-sexual dysfunction."

You see it is society that has created the rapists, the rapist doesnt create himself. And i can guarantee if we let the elders of society raise the young and let the young people have sex freely then there would be no more rape.

(Just had to clear that for earlier Eir)

There is no evil, only what we percieve to be evil, ill use Hitler again...

What he did to the Jews, he never thought was evil or else he would not have done it, he had so many supporters that he believed that he was right.
We may judge it to be "bad" nowadays though, but if you said something that seemed evil to you, yet 10,000,000 people agreed with you, you would soon stop thinking it was evil, even if it seemed evil at first.

We judge things to be "Evil", "Bad" or "Wrong" it as, our own views and opinions, they change, they always will.

e.g.

if i offened you, its your choice to take offence.

but like i said before, if we believe two opposite things, which one of us is right?
Both of us are, there is no right or wrong there cannot be, only what we set up to be...

Also do you believe all tht stuff with the Pope? (him being elected and all?)

[Eriol]

Thôl, you promised you'd be logical. Unless your God commanded you to not be logical, it is your duty to accept logic.

If your God did that, I don't see why we are arguing. Logic must be assumed as right.

About the origin of rape. It is completely unrelated to whether it is evil or not. "Society creates the rapists" -- so what? IS IT EVIL OR NOT?

I don't care who created the rapists, I'm not discussing sociology here.

See, under logic, if you say that rape is not evil, you say that a man can rape another person at will. And then you raise the question: why don't you? It seems quite enjoyable. Most rapists do it for pleasure. Why don't you rape, Thôl?

This is the situation you've got in your hands if you say that rape is not evil, or "sick", or wrong, or whatever word you want to choose for it.

I'll give you another example: pain. Is pain evil? Or can you inflict pain with no second thought?

And I'll give you the third example: is "our God" evil? You just called Him disgusting. Does that mean he is evil?

All these examples point at the question you have not answered yet -- IS THERE EVIL?

Finally -- don't confuse perception with reality. You have already agreed that people can make mistakes in ADDING, remember? How can you logically say that people can make mistakes in adding two numbers and claim that they CAN'T make mistakes in other areas?

Sure, Hitler thought he was right. BUT HE WAS MISTAKEN. Just as the guy who adds 28745938 and 983464782 and finds something different than 1012210720. (Not all additions are as obvious as 2+2=4, just as not all moral judgments are not as easy as rape and Hitler).

So, summing up:

Is there evil? (You answered about the origin, not about evil itself)

Can people make mistakes regarding the truth? (the Fact x View controversy we had on the other thread)

Answer the questions before you write anything else :D.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Elendil3119

The Bible says about spanking children that


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Proverbs 22:15 Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Bible also condones slavery, eating clam chowder makes you an abomination before God; your wife, sister, female co-workers who wear pants are abominations before God, and if you happen to be wearing any kind of poly-blend fabric, you are an abomination before God, and if any woman talks in Church, well . . . you get the idea.

Surely you abide by all that then?

If you interpret the Bible as being accounts of the way certain individuals, influenced by, and products of, their own particular cultures, geographical locales, motives, and cirumstances, were inspired by the Holy Spirit to describe how God was at work in their lives and their world - then you'll understand that we are to take different passages in different contexts, and not as literal guidelines for life in today's world. But, if you believe that every specific word in the Bible is an eternal and absolute How-To manual, ever applicable, such as in the case of woman as priests, then, you have to support slavery, too, as you can't just pick and choose.

[Celebthôl]

No there is no evil!

People can make mistakes with the truth, such as Chritsianity has done, I know what you are trying to do...

There.

Here is the explination.

There are different levels of development...we (as in non rapists) are on a higher evoloutional level we respect other people
Rapists do not they have not evolved to that stage yet, that is why they do it. It is who they are. We see passed it.

Pain is not evil, there is no evil

Who says Hitler was a bad person?

Did you know that when you die it is the happiest time of your life, the best moment, Hitler was the cause of millions of deaths, but they got released from the confines of their bodies, they got total knowledge etc, how can that be a bad thing to happen? only the people left here who miss them are sad, they sure as heaven werent.

Yes your God is evil, and he can be because you allow it, we can call all we want "Evil" it doesnt mean that it is...

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
No there is no evil!

Yes your God is evil

:confused:

How can our God be evil if there is no evil?

If we "allow him to be evil", it must be because there is evil, right? How can you "allow something" to be what does not exist? Can you allow something to be white if there is no whiteness?

There are different levels of development...we (as in non rapists) are on a higher evoloutional level we respect other people.

Is "being on a higher state of development" good? Desirable? Something we should aim for?

If it is, how can you avoid the conclusion that NOT being on a higher state of development is something we should avoid, undesirable... evil?

[Lifeling]

For all those who believe christianity to be illogical, I challenge you to read C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity". If you can still say that Christianity is illogical, then I suggest you read everything else C.S. Lewis ever wrote.

[BranMuffin]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
The Bible also condones slavery, eating clam chowder makes you an abomination before God; your wife, sister, female co-workers who wear pants are abominations before God, and if you happen to be wearing any kind of poly-blend fabric, you are an abomination before God, and if any woman talks in Church, well . . . you get the idea.

Surely you abide by all that then?

If you interpret the Bible as being accounts of the way certain individuals, influenced by, and products of, their own particular cultures, geographical locales, motives, and cirumstances, were inspired by the Holy Spirit to describe how God was at work in their lives and their world - then you'll understand that we are to take different passages in different contexts, and not as literal guidelines for life in today's world. But, if you believe that every specific word in the Bible is an eternal and absolute How-To manual, ever applicable, such as in the case of woman as priests, then, you have to support slavery, too, as you can't just pick and choose.

Seems as if someone has not read the Bible completely. Jesus clarified most of what you stated. You also contradicted yourself by stating the Bible condones slavery then stated later that it supports it(or is it just the way I read it).

Did you know that when you die it is the happiest time of your life, the best moment, Hitler was the cause of millions of deaths, but they got released from the confines of their bodies, they got total knowledge etc, how can that be a bad thing to happen? only the people left here who miss them are sad, they sure as heaven werent.

How do you know that when you die it is the happiest time of your life? Have you experienced this personally? I don't think so, or else you wouldn't be here. We're trapped in our bodies? Just what exactly is trapped our soul, spirit, or a younger better looking you(in just minutes)? I am sad when people close to me pass away but only because I can not enjoy their company anymore. I also feel joyful that I will be re-united with them later.

[Eriol]

Psst, BranMuffin... "condoning" and "supporting" are synonyms. Perhaps you are confusing "condoning" with "condemning". (Remember, I agree with your main point).

And Lifeling, you are absolutely right. But Thôl does not want to read C.S. Lewis, so I guess I'll have to do the hard work for Lewis.

:)

[BranMuffin]

Originally posted by Eriol
Psst, BranMuffin... "condoning" and "supporting" are synonyms. Perhaps you are confusing "condoning" with "condemning". (Remember, I agree with your main point).

And Lifeling, you are absolutely right. But Thôl does not want to read C.S. Lewis, so I guess I'll have to do the hard work for Lewis.

:)

Oops, your right I was confused I guess I read it wrong. And I know you agree with my main points. Finer details though.....well on some things anyway.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by BranMuffin
Jesus clarified most of what you stated.

Clarification? Oh yes the things I enumerated are oh so blurry that they need to be 'clarified'. But I would just luuuv to see these clarifications. I'm sure they make as much sense as the rest of it.

[Elendil3119]

And I'd be more than interested to see some that support these statements;):
The Bible also condones slavery, eating clam chowder makes you an abomination before God; your wife, sister, female co-workers who wear pants are abominations before God, and if you happen to be wearing any kind of poly-blend fabric, you are an abomination before God, and if any woman talks in Church, well . . . you get the idea.
The Bible does not condone slavery as it is commonly perceived. I'll try to look up some passages later to explain Biblical "slavery" better...

[Ithrynluin]

Oh I see...Not all forms of slavery are bad. You know, I don't think there's any need for you to dig for those quotes. We're disagreeing from the get-go.

And I'd be more than interested to see some that support these statements:

I thought as a Christian you knew them? :confused:

[Elendil3119]

No, in fact, I never knew they existed. From the wording of your statements, it would seem that a few of those (women wearing pants, poly-blend fabric, clam chowder) are from OT Levitical (ceremonial) law, which was later done away with at Christ's coming. Still, I'd be interested to see the passages that 'support' those statments.

[BranMuffin]

Were are you getting your information from, Ithrynluin? Slavery was a very common thing long ago. Yes the Bible talks of owning slaves but in the sense of hired workers. The Bible clearly states that "slaves" had rights too. Exodus 21:1-11. Many of these laws set a new standard of morality: societies of that day oppressed aliens, mistreated slaves, exploited the poor, and awarded lost animals to their finder. The Israelites' rules governing slavery, for example, were enlightened for their time. Other anchient societies treated slaves as things rather than persons; Israelites were the first to honor them with formal rights. By beginning with laws protecting the lowest on the social scale, God was teaching the value of every human being. All throught the New Testament both Peter and Paul speak about slavery.

In Mark 7:19 Jesus declared all foods clean. They were labelled as unclean in the Old testament(Leviticus) due to unrefined methods of cooking and cleaning. If the food is not properly prepared then you had the problem with germs that they did not know about then, but God did and so declared them unclean at the time.

The sexist attitude that you found is mainly in the Old Testament. Even in the Old Testament women played major roles both for good and bad. In Romans Paul sends women to churches as help labelling them fellow workers-equals. Galations 3:26-28 states that all who are in Christ are equals male-female, Jew-Greek, and slave-free.

The references you talk of about clothing were to guard and protect women. To not be vain or gaudy. Remember they didn't have pants back then for women it was traditional to wear a skirt or dress.

[Thorin]

Originally posted by BranMuffin
In Mark 7:19 Jesus declared all foods clean. They were labelled as unclean in the Old testament(Leviticus) due to unrefined methods of cooking and cleaning. If the food is not properly prepared then you had the problem with germs that they did not know about then, but God did and so declared them unclean at the time.
Careful now. Mark 7:19 is not talking about clean and unclean meats from a Levitical perspective. The point Jesus was trying to make was that what we produce morally is worse than what we eat. He was not sanctioning all unclean "meats" which is another word for "food"as clean. The issue here was not clean and unclean meats, but the Pharisees' emphasis on ritualistic cleansing of their food so they wouldn't be defiled. You could say that Jesus was making a case against not worrying about whether your food was "ceremonially" cleansed or washed before you eat it. Hence the need for an analogy. In Paul's day the issue wasn't clean or unclean meats either from a Biblical perspective, but the Pharisees' emphasis on not eating food sacrificed to idols.

It is actually a misconception to assume that what meats were clean and unclean were only part of the ceremonial law done away with at the cross. And it had nothing to do with how well you cooked it. God allowed the Hebrews to eat meat after the flood but stated how it was to be cooked (no blood). They were still not allowed to eat unclean meats. How a pig became clean through Jesus dying on the cross is beyond me.

[Athelas]

>The Bible also condones slavery, eating clam chowder makes you an abomination before God; your wife, sister, female co-workers who wear pants are abominations before God, and if you happen to be wearing any kind of poly-blend fabric, you are an abomination before God, and if any woman talks in Church, well . . . you get the idea.<

Yes, this silliness and worse things are in the Bible, which is why I just smile when someone says "It's either all true or none of it is true!"

Hey

Eriol

Evil Exists! Now go ahead and make your point already.

>How do you know that when you die it is the happiest time of your life? Have you experienced this personally?<

As a matter of fact, I have. The memory is quite vivid. Out-of-body-Experiences are actually quite common throughout human history. The accounts of people who have been clinically dead and then revived are strikingly similar. My own experience was absolutely blissful and joyous.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Athelas


Hey

Eriol

Evil Exists! Now go ahead and make your point already.



I'm glad you feel this way, Athelas. However, in a coherent discussion, you don't build upon an argument before the other side agrees with it. Celebthôl has not agreed with it, and so I can't proceed.

If you really want to talk about it, we have our very own thread, remember? Bring the Incarnation thread up and we'll talk. But the focus with you is quite different than with Thôl -- as witnessed by the fact that you take evil for granted, and he doesn't.

Biblical issues, and historical issues, and the examination of Christ's role can't proceed before we establish the nature of God. It's no good trying to convince an atheist that Jesus is the Son of God if he does not believe there is a God!

Thôl believes in a God, but it is not the same God as Christians believe. So I have to show him he is wrong before I proceed.

This is not to say you all should stop talking about the Bible, and the old Law, slavery, out-of-body experiences... I don't mind off-topic.

But my focus here is Thôl, and while he does not agree with the point of Evil I can't go on.

[Jesse]

Hi,
As an ex-Christian and a teen philosopher, I too have a hard time with the belief of Hell and the whole Christian theology. Believe it or not, Hell is HERE. Earth is Hell. Ever heard the phrase Hell on Earth? Well...it's true. Let me explain what I mean by posting my statement of faith:

I do not believe in a Hell, for my belief on this is Hell is HERE. Earth is Hell. Millions of innocent people die believing in a Hell when Hell is just a place they made up. In the mind, Hell is confusion, "Satan's Realm", etc. There are many examples to back up the statement that Hell is here. Some are as follows:


-Earth has violence

-Earth is a planet bent on destruction

-Earthlings do not appreciate the blessings they've gotten from the Creator

-Earth has lots of diseases

-We humans all go through series of what Jesus said Hell was like "The biting and gnashing of teeth". What I mean by this is we all go through Hell in our lives on time or another.

-If Hell existed below Earth, as the common belief goes, no-one, not even the dead would be able to survive the heat that's found in the Center of the Earth. Now, for more evidence to support this belief, see below:

The Great Spirit (according to my own beliefs on this issue done through extensive research, and pondering the world as it is today,) did not make Satan. My belief on Satan is we ARE Satan. We destroy this beautiful Earth and it's wildlife without thinking about the consequences of our actions. Satan is us, we are Satan. We ask the Great Spirit for guidance and the guidance it gives us we refuse to follow, thus we are a demon. We are our own Satan, our own serpent. Our own tempter.

The mind is an amazing thing. No one as of this day can tell if there is a Devil. We have never seen a "Satan, Luicfer, Angel of Light", etc. as of 6/25/03. The mind makes us think that Satan is tempting us to do something. In reality, we only do what our mind tells us to do. With this being said, how can Satan tempt us? We don't do things on our own. OUR MIND tells us to do things. Right now, my mind is saying to my brain, explain your case with detail. Well, I am doing what my mind says.

So, if this is true, Satan is our mind. Our sense of Evil is far off course. There is no such thing as good, & no such thing as evil. After examining the belief on Evil, Satan, & Hell, is that they do not exist. I've spent 2 weeks thinking on this very issue and after looking at how the world is today, I came to this conclusion. Now I expect some resistence from the Christians, & I welcome that.

One thing we must remember is the only thing that exists in this world is the Creator, Animals, & our choices Everything else is an illusion, for the world we've created was made by our choices. Look at Adolf Hitler for example. He could've not destroyed 3,000 Jews. Yet, his mind told him it was necessary in order to restore Germany. So, he made the choice to kill dozens of Jews.


MY POINT IN THIS LONG POST IS SIMPLE:


Evil, Satan, & Hell do not exist. We must learn that it is our choices that determine our future. The only "real" things in the world are Animals (this includes all living things), our choices, & the Creator. Everything else is an illusion, a "make-believe" world if you will. The reason we are here is to make harmony with animals, the Creator, the world, & the universe. Other than that, life is pointless. And when we die, we ALL go to new world where the Creator, the animals, & the peoples of Earth live in harmony forever. That is why we are put on this Earth. It does not matter which religion you are, you must accept all faiths. There is no "ONE WAY to the Creator".

[HLGStrider]

I think Eriol already sort of pointed this out, but I thought I'd elaborate.

You have a major double standard/inconsitancy/illogical bit in your faith system.

A. Evil is nonexistant. Good is nonexistant. It is a matter of opinion.
B. Death is good (How can it be good if there is no good?).
C. God is evil because he killed people in the flood (How can he be evil if there is no evil and how can this be evil if death is good?).

My conclusion on your belief system: God cannot be evil and cannot be good and everything he does is arbitrary and doesn't really matter so if he decided to kill off all those people it was AOK. If he decides to torture us in Hell it is his right just as it is your right to, by your system, rape. What's the difference?

Personally I'm glad I don't go by your belief system. I'd rather have a good God who doesn't like evil than an arbitrary god.

Now you say that we are god. What is your proof of that? My proof that we are not god is that we are under so many things that an all powerful god wouldn't be under (and you say god is all powerful). We are under nature in many cases. We can't bend it to our will except with temporrary scientific intrusions. We are under laws. We can't fly. We can't live forever.

So you think your parents were wrong (or would be wrong) if they punished you for hitting your sister?

I think they would be right. For one thing it teaches you there are consequences to hitting your teacher and makes sure you don't grow up to hit whoever you want and get in trouble when one day you get A. arrested B. sued C. beat up by the guy you hit who is stronger than you.

They did you a big favor.

You know, I have two words for someone who does wrong and doesn't think it is wrong: Mentally ill.

Hitler was undeniably mentally ill. He used to insist his bodyguards search under his bed for monsters before he went down for the night and suffered from other symptoms of madness.

[HLGStrider]

Sorry, didn't notice your post Jess. Posted over it. . .

I just wanted to say you're a bit off topic. This isn't about Hell or the Devil at the moment, though those can be debated (wouldn't it be better to debate it in the Hell debate thread?).

Now, you say there is no one way to Heaven. Why do you believe this? Because it is a nice belief? What happens if you do not accept all faiths?

The reason I don't is because they say different things and not all can be true.

Some of the things they are different in aren't that important. I don't think it eternally matters if the son Abraham almost sacrificed was Ishmel as the Muslims say or Isaac as the Christians and Jews say. . .but one of them is obviously wrong. It is possible both are wrong.

On bigger issues, they also differ. One says Jesus is the son of God. The others don't.

Again, someone's wrong and someone's right.

Isn't it the truth that matters? Who is right?

They can't all be. That would be contradictory. . .so who is? That's what truly matters.

[Eriol]

Jesse, you have the exact opposite belief from Thôl. I'd like to talk with you about it, but on another thread. Open it if you want. But while Thôl believes that there is no evil, you believe that there is no good -- at least not on this Earth, which is Hell. Both of you contradict yourselves in your statements, by the way. But I'm addressing Thôl's beliefs in this thread.

To discuss your beliefs in the same thread as Thôl's would be quite confusing.

And by the way, don't you think it is odd to say that "...not even the dead could survive..."?

:confused:

What does the word "dead" means in that sentence? Of course they can't survive, they're dead.

[Jesse]

Like I said before,
I welcome your response. My belief is, on the subject of death and the Creator, is that death is just the beginning of a new life. For the Christian, it is the next step. Death is neither good nor bad. Death is netural, for Death is part of the Creator's plan. We all will die. The true question is...are we fearful of death? Most Christians are afraid of death. Why is this so? If death is merely coming to see Jesus Christ, why are they afraid? Also, if God wants to destroy the Earth, that is HIS business.

We have no right to question God. "Do not test the LORD your God". Remember that verse? We are basically saying "God, you are evil for you killed the world with the Flood. Your word says you are holy, but how can this be true?" See my point? We are testing God. And people wonder why God hasn't "talked" to mankind in a long time....sheesh...:rolleyes: Here is what I believe in:


1.) I believe in Science, not traditional beliefs (mind you I believe in the Native American God whose name is the Great Spirit. This is the only exception for me. I put my belief in facts, truth, and Science.)

2.) I believe in Evolution. (Why is it there is more evidence for Evolution than Creationism? Could it be that the Creator actually did use Evolution to create the human race? Why can't Christians accept fact, even if it goes against Genesis 1-12? The peoples of Earth have many creation stories. How do we know which one is the truth? WE DON'T KNOW!)

3.) I put my trust in the Great Spirit (I see HIS creation every minute, day, month, week, & year. I do not see Jesus Christ anywhere in the world. Not even in "His flock". AKA Christians. Most Christians I've met are FAR TOO judgmental "Judge lest ye be judged as well".)

4.) I believe we are Satan (Look at the things mankind has done and you are bound to see this is true! We destroy the Earth without even thinking. Humans are stupid, ignorant, and pigs, and also, we have our own inner-demon. AKA our Anger.)

5.) I believe the Creator is neither good nor evil. I believe that good and evil do not exist. (If Good and Evil existed, half the world would be good, the other half would be Evil. Also, Evil would theoretically (sp?) reign over the Earth for there would be more Evil than Good.)

6.) I believe Hell is here. (As I have stated, Hell is here. Hell is a state of mind. I encourage you to read the book Conversations With God for Teens. Most of my beliefs are backed up by this book. What suprises me, is Christians cannot accept this because of traditional theology. Man-made theology, nontheless.)

That is what I believe in. I also believe in questioning other faiths, having FUN in life, magick, judging others (it's fun, and the commandments I live by do not say "Thou shall not judge"). If we look at judging in general, we judge each other daily. HGLStrider, I strongly encourage you to read the book Conservations With God for Teens.

What is my proof we are God? God is in us, we are in God. We create, God creates. I've already stated the purpose of life, but I want to add this:

3 Main Purposes In Life:


1.) Have FUN

2.) Share Love

3.) Believe in God

As a teen philosopher and ex-Christian, I understand your feelings towards this issue. I have, however, come to a higher spiritual level. Christianity is NOT the only faith on Earth, and even though that maybe hard to accept, we must accept it. HGLStrider, I thank you for pointing those things out to me. Oh, but we do live forever. Our flesh and bone bodies die, but our soul moves on, so thus, we live forever. I thought you were a Christian?

You surely must know the belief of Heaven & Jesus Christ then. Why do you say we do not live forever if you believe in him? Strange thing...hmmm...oh well, it doesn't matter. I've made my point loud and clear now. I'll check back tomorrow. :)

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Jesse
Like I said before,
I welcome your response.

That's nice of you. However, I ask you again -- please open another thread if you want to discuss your beliefs. And do it only if you want to DISCUSS your beliefs, not to simply state them. For a philosopher you seem to KNOW a lot of things. Philosophy is the search for wisdom, Jesse, not the possession of it.

You are messing a LOT of different issues in your posts. It is impossible to address them properly. So please, for the sake of order in this thread, open another.

If you really mean the words I quoted you'll do it.

[Jesse]

Alright then. I agree with you that I did mess a lot of issues into one post, and I apologize. I guess I was trying to get my feelings out. Oh, and as for me being a philosopher, that is true. Over the years, I have FOUND wisdom in many things. I still am looking for wisdom, and the purpose of life. :) I'll leave this topic now.

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by Eriol

How can our God be evil if there is no evil?

If we "allow him to be evil", it must be because there is evil, right? How can you "allow something" to be what does not exist? Can you allow something to be white if there is no whiteness?

Is "being on a higher state of development" good? Desirable? Something we should aim for?

If it is, how can you avoid the conclusion that NOT being on a higher state of development is something we should avoid, undesirable... evil?

I was taking it from your point of view, not mine.

Your belief is that there is evil, so you can allow for it (i.e. the Devil (i will explain where he came from in my belief later)), mine is there is no evil.

Yes, well, we live our life, and gain experience, and each time we gain good experience, we progress (i.e. we realise rap is not "right" (im tired and cant think of a better word, please dont bring that "right" up) we bring that to our next state of being, and each time we learn somthing of value we progress. So yes it is very desierable, it brings us closer to ultimalte knowledge.

It is not evil to be on a lower level, it is a process of learning.

[Eriol]

You hit in on the nail, Thôl, when you say that "right" is the wrong word. The thing is, whatever word you choose, you accept that some things are better than others. To rape is better than to not rape. To have experience is better than to not have it. To be "closer to ultimate knowledge" is better than to be away from it.

If some things are better than others, how do you sort between them? When you say "I prefer", whatever you do to finish up the sentence, you are saying that one alternative is better than another.

You prefer visiting TTF than not visiting it, right?

That means you think that absence from TTF is an evil compared to presence in TTF.

When you deny evil, you deny preferences, and you reach the position that, say, logging on to TTF is just as good as not logging on it. But your everyday behavior clearly denies that.

So you believe that there is, in fact, evil. All humans do, don't be bothered by it. You are just being misled by the word "evil" here.

IF YOU PREFER SOME THING OVER ANOTHER, YOU THINK THE SECOND THING IS WORSE THAN THE FIRST.

"Worse". "Evil". "Undesirable". "To be avoided".

All synonyms. Do you deny them all? Then you must agree that logging on to TTF is as good as not logging on to it.

Now, I don't think you will agree with that last sentence, if you are honest.

:D

Now you are saying, in your last post, that Experience = Good. (Look it yourself, I'm not making it up ;) ). That must be discussed afterwards, but you must agree first that Good and Evil exist, since you choose between alternatives throughout your life. If you don't like the words, change them. In Portuguese it is "Bem" and "Mal". Sounds good to you?

[Celebthôl]

This is what i mean

"There is no such thing as "wrong". There is only that which does not serve you; does not speek the truth about Who You Are, and Who You Choose to be."

That is what i mean, that quote came from God himself.

I choose to come on TTF because i enjoy it, it doesnt mean it either "good" or "bad" for me.

We have prefereces, God does not.

Just because i do not choose something it doesnt mean that the thing i dont choose is undesierable.

i.e.

Cream bun or Donut, i wouldnt mind either, but i can only choose one, does that mean if i pick the cream bun that the donut is undesierable?

Yes experience is good, but it is not necissary.

I will never agree that "good" and "bad" exist, because they dont. As prooven in my quote.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
[B]This is what i mean

"There is no such thing as "wrong". There is only that which does not serve you; does not speek the truth about Who You Are, and Who You Choose to be."

That is what i mean, that quote came from God himself.

Is this a fact or a view? :D

I choose to come on TTF because i enjoy it, it doesnt mean it either "good" or "bad" for me.

Enjoy -- what is the difference between "enjoyable" and "good"?

We have prefereces, God does not.

But I'm talking about we, not about God.

Just because i do not choose something it doesnt mean that the thing i dont choose is undesierable.

i.e.

Cream bun or Donut, i wouldnt mind either, but i can only choose one, does that mean if i pick the cream bun that the donut is undesierable?

Sure it does. Otherwise you'd have picked it. See: if it is desirable, you desire it; if you desire it and can get it, you get it. Simple as that. It is "less desirable" than cream bun, perhaps, but that's enough to rank it as "undesirable" in the presence of cream bun.

Just as not logging on to TTF is "undesirable" if you have the time and a computer to do it. It does not mean that going to the beach is evil, just because you will not be on TTF. It means that if you have the opportunity, and do it, it is because you desired it. And therefore it is desirable.

Yes experience is good, but it is not necissary.

I will never agree that "good" and "bad" exist, because they dont. As prooven in my quote.

Quotes don't prove anything, Thôl... this is not a battle of quotes, you see I have not offered one yet. Logic proves. Quotes are the meat of logic, perhaps, but they are not logic itself.

And if experience is "good", then good exists.

You may wriggle, but you can't escape this fact. That's the difference between a fact and a view :D. You can call good anything you want, but it exists. You choose between good and bad every day, at every moment in your life. You may decide to abandon logic now and deny it, and then our discussion will end -- but if you do it, it is because you will have thought that abandoning logic was GOOD.

There is no way out. You can run but you can't hide.

;)

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by Eriol
Is this a fact or a view? :D



Enjoy -- what is the difference between "enjoyable" and "good"?



But I'm talking about we, not about God.



Sure it does. Otherwise you'd have picked it. See: if it is desirable, you desire it; if you desire it and can get it, you get it. Simple as that. It is "less desirable" than cream bun, perhaps, but that's enough to rank it as "undesirable" in the presence of cream bun.

Just as not logging on to TTF is "undesirable" if you have the time and a computer to do it. It does not mean that going to the beach is evil, just because you will not be on TTF. It means that if you have the opportunity, and do it, it is because you desired it. And therefore it is desirable.



Quotes don't prove anything, Thôl... this is not a battle of quotes, you see I have not offered one yet. Logic proves. Quotes are the meat of logic, perhaps, but they are not logic itself.

And if experience is "good", then good exists.

You may wriggle, but you can't escape this fact. That's the difference between a fact and a view :D. You can call good anything you want, but it exists. You choose between good and bad every day, at every moment in your life. You may decide to abandon logic now and deny it, and then our discussion will end -- but if you do it, it is because you will have thought that abandoning logic was GOOD.

There is no way out. You can run but you can't hide.

;)

It is a fact

Good is a word that has been attatched to enjoyable

But we are all God (as i have said) so im talking about us and God.

No we want both, but we can only afford one, on one day we may pick the donut, on the other day we may pick the cream bun and on another we may not have either. Our desires change, so do our views, so they cant be bad or wrong if one day we go by them.

Lets talk about logical

Is spanking ur child logical?
Is a God who hates you and throws you to the "devil" if you dont go to confession etc and the poor inocent baby who dies has to go to purgatory because it is to young to even have started to sin, is that logical?

How is that logical?

Good only exists in our minds, nowhere else, i have explained about why there is no "good" and "bad", but you wont accept it.

[Sarah]

Originally posted by Celebthôl


Is a God who hates you and throws you to the "devil" if you dont go to confession...logical?


I do not believe that there is a devil, even tho it says so in the bible. I believe that we do wrong things out of our own free will, the devil doesn't tempt us, we just do it. It's good to confess your sins to God, but He will forgive you even if you don't. He loves you too much to ever "throw you to the devil."

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by Sarah
I do not believe that there is a devil, even tho it says so in the bible. I believe that we do wrong things out of our own free will, the devil doesn't tempt us, we just do it. It's good to confess your sins to God, but He will forgive you even if you don't. He loves you too much to ever "throw you to the devil."

Thank you, that is exactly how it works, doesnt make a difference if we confess or not...

[Eliot]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
Is spanking ur child logical?

Of course it is! If I was spanked by my parents for 11 years, and I'm personally glad they did, then I think spanking is logical. If you don't spank, your children won't be afraid to do wrong in the parents presence because they know there won't be consequences.

Sure, maybe the Mom will say "No TV for an hour!", and then the spoiled little brat will start screaming and wailing. That's how it usually works. ;)

[Eliot]

Let me just ask you this, Sarah. Are you a Christian?

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
Good only exists in our minds, nowhere else, i have explained about why there is no "good" and "bad", but you wont accept it.

Hey, this is the first time you admitted to it, Thôl! So there IS good, right? After all, EVERYTHING that you know exists "in your mind".

It's not about accepting or not accepting. I never denied ANYTHING you said. I'm just delving into it.

So, let's see: there is good, in our minds, right? Or else we would never choose between two things.

Don't change the subject. (Spanking).

Don't "read my mind" and assume I am accepting or rejecting something. If I accept or reject anything, I'll let you know.

Read only my words, and that's enough ;).

If you agree that there is good (and, of course, evil), we can proceed.

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by Eliot
Of course it is! If I was spanked by my parents for 11 years, and I'm personally glad they did, then I think spanking is logical. If you don't spank, your children won't be afraid to do wrong in the parents presence because they know there won't be consequences.

Sure, maybe the Mom will say "No TV for an hour!", and then the spoiled little brat will start screaming and wailing. That's how it usually works. ;)

But as i have said before, its like God coming down and spanking every person that has done a bad thing, we all act like kids with the big wars n stuff going on, why doesnt he spank G.Bush or T.Blair? or even S.Hussain?

[Eliot]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
why doesnt he spank G.Bush or T.Blair? or even S.Hussain?

Because they were given a free will by God. In His word, God instructs parents to spank. At least that's how I interpret that verse from Proverbs.

I thank my parents for how they brought me up, even though the spanking hurt for a couple of minutes.

[BranMuffin]

Shomebody needsh a shpanking!

I beleive S.Hussein did get a spanking.

I don't think spanking is the topic though.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by BranMuffin
I don't think spanking is the topic though.

Hear, hear...

Focus, Thôl.

Let the others get off-topic if you want, but you are supposed to be here to examine your beliefs.

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by Eriol
Hey, this is the first time you admitted to it, Thôl! So there IS good, right? After all, EVERYTHING that you know exists "in your mind".

It's not about accepting or not accepting. I never denied ANYTHING you said. I'm just delving into it.

So, let's see: there is good, in our minds, right? Or else we would never choose between two things.

Don't change the subject. (Spanking).

Don't "read my mind" and assume I am accepting or rejecting something. If I accept or reject anything, I'll let you know.

Read only my words, and that's enough ;).

If you agree that there is good (and, of course, evil), we can proceed.

There is only "good" and "bad" in our minds, not in reality.

No we choose between things to suit our situation at that moment.

I shall never agree there is good and evil.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
There is only "good" and "bad" in our minds, not in reality.

No we choose between things to suit our situation at that moment.

I shall never agree there is good and evil.

A pity, but there's nothing I can do. You chose to renounce logic. Since you can't refute the reasoning, nor avoid changing the subject, it is clear that you abandoned logic. If you still held on to logic, you would try to refute the reasoning by logic instead of proclaiming its falsehood without any argument.

If you will never agree, even when it is proved, the discussion is over.

And rest assured -- good and evil will go on existing even if you don't agree with them. For your disagreement was decided by you because you think it is the best course for you -- in other words, because it is good. You decided that lack of logic is better than logic.

Good luck.

[Celebthôl]

No it is not proven.

Please use quotes to proove it if you will, and im sorry for going off topic :(

Please proove that good and evil exist, and make it unrefutable.

Then i will aknowledge it

[Eriol]

No quotes, sorry, just logic:

1) You choose between two alternatives;
2) You are guided in your choice by some gradation of preference.

See what follows from denying any of the premises:

DENYING PREMISE 1:

You do not Choose. Therefore, there is no free will.

DENYING PREMISE 2:

You choose randomly. So you may rape someone tomorrow. And even more importantly, if you rape someone tomorrow, you won't realize whether it is good or not.

(Remember, you already acknowledged that rape is "sick". If you deny premise 2 you have to deny your own admission of the "sickness" of rape).

Now it is a FACT that you choose between alternatives, and that your preference is something more stable than randomness. You do not abhor TTF one day, and love it in the next.

This preference is called goodness.

I don't care whether you believe that it exists in your mind, or in reality, or in any other form -- but it exists. Else you would not choose. In fact, if it did not exist you would not act at all. Even when you get up from bed you do it because you think waking up is better than sleeping -- see? there comes that wily word, "better", to shatter your speculation that "there is no good".

And this speculation was just PROVEN wrong -- right now. Believe it if you like -- but your belief can't touch the proof. Refute it if you can, and we will go on. But believing that it is false and refuting it is very different, Thôl...

[Celebthôl]

Fine ok, there is good and bad, but i WILL not admit that there is sin, that is one thing i wont bend on!

Now can we proceed?

[Eriol]

Sure... who's talking about sin?

:D

Now, Thôl, can you define good for me? What is that thing that makes something good, and another thing evil?

Goodness?

Begging the question, you may have noticed.

What is it?

[Celebthôl]

To be good means you dont do evil things :D

anyways

Good, Dont rape, murder etc u forgive unconditionally

Evil, Do rape murder etc you forgive condtionally

[Eriol]

Those are examples. I asked for a definition.

If I asked you for the definition of a man you would not say, "Me!".

Likewise, I don't want examples of good and evil. I want to know whether you can define them.

I don't think you'll be able to do it, because as I see it, good is undefinable. But you should not accept it on my word -- try to find some definition of good that encompasses all of your examples.

If you fail at that, we can proceed. Remember, my goal at this moment is to show that your version of God is wrong, and the Christian version of God is right.

[Celebthôl]

But that wont work, because it requires me to go against my belief for you to go on, i already have and so your asking me to believe in what ur God says which is something i cant do.

They cannot be defined as well im right nothing is good and nothing is bad...

But continue anyway

Ah ha

Good = something that pleases you

Bad = something that displeases you

[Eriol]

No, I can't continue if you won't agree to bend your beliefs to logic. Right now none of us has the right to call on our beliefs to defend ourselves -- we serve only logic and Reason. That's how an argument works.

If you won't discard a belief that has been proven wrong by logic, why should I spend my time on it? Remember what I told you before you opened this thread -- you should do it only if you really wanted to examine your beliefs.

It seems you do not want to do it. Good luck -- again.

[Celebthôl]

I do, but i also want to open ur eyes to my belief along the way...

I will bend to allow the good and bad thing,

Ok did you get my definition of good and bad?

I have followed your God for quite a while and i never felt comfortable with its teachings...

[Eriol]

My eyes are quite open to your belief. You explained it, and I got it. What you really mean is that you want to convince me that your belief is correct -- to do that, it must pass the test of logic.

You are not making a generous concession in this "bending". You are forced to do it, by your reason. Or you must throw your reason away.

Let's see your definition -- is there nothing good and displeasing, then? And there is also nothing evil and pleasing? Is that it?

[Celebthôl]

I havent explained it fully yet.

Ok, i shall bend, and make a consession.

If murder pleases me then its good but if it displeases you at the same time it is also bad.

It depends whos eyes you are looking through...

[Eriol]

And what about the answer to my questions?

And example -- rape pleases the rapist. Is it good then? Are you refusing your own admission that rape is "sick"?

[Celebthôl]

Rape does not please me, but i can assure you that the rapist is pleased.

In my view rape is sick and wrong.

In a rapists view rape is not sick and it right.

which of us is correct?

Im not sure that i understand your question (sorry :o) can you please elabourate it :o

[Eriol]

You are falling back on the view x fact controversy. We had established before that a view can be wrong. So the fact that the rapist's views are that rape is correct has no bearing.

He can be mistaken, since it is only a view.

My question is -- can you imagine anything unpleasant and good?

Also -- Can you imagine anything pleasant and evil?

Rape was one example of the latter. I'll give you another, of the former -- work. Work is unpleasant to some, and yet they do it. Presumably they do it because it is good. So we have something unpleasant and good -- contradicting your definition.

[Celebthôl]

No, i cant think of anything :confused: do you?

[Eriol]

Ah, I can think of many -- I already gave you two examples. What do you want, pleasant evil things or unpleasant good things? I can give you quite a long list for each.

But the two examples are good enough for starters.

Rape and work; how do you make them agree with your definition?

[Celebthôl]

People can enjoy their job so that one wont work.

Rape, well its the view, its always the view. The rapist thinks its good the raped thinks its bad.

Thats the only way i can...

[Eriol]

People can enjoy their jobs -- but sometimes they don't, and keep on working anyway.

If your definition was correct, EVERY instance of a pleasant event would be a good event; every instance of an unpleasant event would be an evil event. Regardless of the "views" involved (You don't see anything about "views" in your definition).

So, if that is the best you can do, I must tell you that your definition does not pass the test.

Let us see what we have established so far, a quick review:

1) View x fact. We have seen that people can be mistaken. Therefore, to say that the perception of an event by someone is automatically correct is wrong -- we must check whether that person is mistaken or not, using logic.

2) Good x evil. We have seen that people act, and in acting they choose among alternatives. In this free choice they follow a gradation of preferences which runs from Good to Evil, going through Indifferent.

3) (Not as established as the others, but we're getting to it) Good is undefinable (and of course this means Evil is equally undefinable). We have not reached any clear criterion to say that something is good or bad. People choose according to this gradation of preferences, but this gradation has no explanation and no link to any perceptible characteristic (as pleasure).



Now, let's imagine that (3) is established in your mind. Explain to me, Thôl, how can your God be evil. For he must be -- there is evil (Finding N. 2), and you say your God is EVERYTHING. So he is evil also.

Pantheism -- your belief -- always comes to this conclusion, that evil is part of nature, part of God. Yin/Yang, you know. How Brahman is intrinsic to demons and gods alike. Etc.

Explain that to me. How can a world created by a God have evil if that God is Everything. You see, your beliefs differ from, say, Hinduism because Hinduism does NOT have a Creator, while your beliefs have a God who is a Creator and at the same time is Everything. You are mixing two opposite systems. If God creates, he is not the same as the creatures; if God is the same as the creatures, he does not Create.

Read this post slowly before you answer to it. I put a lot of stuff here :).

[Celebthôl]

God is evil, but he is all loving and love come before any other emotion, he wont be evil to us, he loves us, are you evil to the people you love? he has evil in him, he just doesnt show it.

Brahmin, is someone to the like of me, he was correct about God.

We are God everything is God, we are free to experience evilness, but it isnt the quickest path to ultimate knowledge...

Im pushed with many other things, but that is the best i can do...sorry if it sucks

[Eriol]

"God is Evil"

"Evil is undefinable"

Don't you see what those two established premises entail? I'll tell you. You are judging God by an undefinable standard, and finding he is wanting. He is worse than this standard.

Your God is no God, since he is worse than a standard.

God is perfect; you said that. Perfection means that he can't be compared with something else and be found wanting. YOU are more a God than your God, since you are aware of the standard and you can see that he is worse than this standard.

Summing up: your belief is not that Everything is God -- it is rather that Nothing is God. You are an atheist, my friend. You just choose to use the word "God" as a substitute for "everything". But "God" is not a word -- God is God; and He is lacking in your system of beliefs.

You worship Everything, good and bad, perfect and imperfect, true and false, equally. That's not a Deity. That's nothing.

Now, we can explore that further of you wish. But I will have to begin at the very beginning, at showing how there is, in fact, a God, because in reality you do not believe in one.

There is no rush, by the way. You can take as long as you want to answer... don't worry about the time.

[Celebthôl]

Firstly, please dont tell me what i believe.

I do believe in a God, but he does not in the smallest way interfier in our world and he never has and never will!

The God i believe in is EVERYTHING and NOTHING, how a God should be.

God is perfect, and so are we, whether you choose to see it or not.

I am God, you are God the rapist down the street is God, the screen you are looking at is God all the space between your eyes and the screen is God, the black void of space is God.

If you can come up with a better way for God to experience himself other than making us and blocking our ultimate knowledge form us for the 80 years we are here for, please tell me...

My God is all those things, so i worship that, but i dont even worship it, he does not require it, he knows i love him, he doesnt want me to waste a sunday at church to proove it.

I know there is a God, my God i do believe in him, but i forgive you because that is what is proper.

[Eriol]

I'm not telling you what you believe -- you are telling me what you believe. I'm just describing your own beliefs.

Your God is no God. Sorry if it bothers you, but that's how it is. Just as if you said you believe that 2+2=5. You can believe it, but you can't make it be so.

And that discovery that your God is no God was not forced upon you by me, either. It was forced upon you by the argument.

Look at what you are saying, Thôl. A God who is evil is, perforce, a God worse than something. Otherwise he could not be evil (we have seen that this works as preferences, so if you say something is evil, it is because there is something better than it).

You say that you worship good and evil, true and false. That is the same as worshipping nothing -- or everything.

You are an atheist, it's a fact as sure as the fact that you typed that post. For you do not worship any God. That is the definition of an atheist. The only difference is that you have a fondness for the word "God" and prefer to worship that instead -- worshipping a word instead of the real thing.

I don't want to upset you, so again, I call your attention that what is forcing this conclusion is you, yourself, with the data you have provided. You have followed the argument from the beginning. If you don't like to be called an atheist, well, find a flaw in the argument.

If you don't refute the argument, I'm sorry, but the conclusion will stand. For Perfection can't be flawed -- and that is what you believe. As logical as 2+2=7.

By the way, being an atheist is not an insult, or demeaning. I know a lot of atheists. I don't mean you are a bad guy. I only mean that you do not worship any God...

A word is not a god, even if it has the letters G, O, D.

[Celebthôl]

No i dont worship any God at all, but that isnt to say there is no God he is there alright, i dant care if you cant see it the same as me, but he is as i have said Everything and Nothing, that is the only thing he can be whether you agree or not.

I am not an atheist as they believe there is no God, i know there is a God but he doesnt need worshipping only a insucure tyrrant does needs to be worshipped!

How is saying that i dont worship a God saying that 2 + 2 = 7?

One is spiritual the other is earthly...

[HLGStrider]

Let's take that statement:
Only an insecure tyrant needs worshipped.

Worshipping is showing honor to and praising.

If you do something well, let's say you build a house, and you show it to someone, it is often to get that person to tell you what they think of it. If you did a good job, they'll tell you so. If you didn't they'll tell you how to make it better (idealy).

Now, let's say you make a perfect house. You make a house so perfect that no one, after going over it with a fine tooth comb, can find a single thing wrong with it. A person says, "Great house." They are just stating a fact.

Most worshipping involves phrases like, "I love you lord because you are perfect. You are great. You did this for me."

And if God is perfect and great and did that for him, the worshipper is just stating truth. Praising what deserves to be praised. . .so worshipping is paying tribute to something that deserves to be paid tribute to. God doesn't fish for our compliments, but he likes them. Just like you'd like it when the person said, "Great house."

My view is that not worshipping something greater than you are is an act of an insecure person who can't stand to admit something is greater than they are.

I see this a lot (not on the worshiping level). I know a LOT of people who can't say something good about you without adding something bad because they are insecure. I have a heck of a time dealing with people like this. It seems there only instinct is to put you down.

On the other hand a secure person will tell you if you do a good job because it doesn't threaten them.

[Sarah]

Originally posted by Eliot
Let me just ask you this, Sarah. Are you a Christian?

I am a Messianic Jew.

[HLGStrider]

Want me to add my input on the devil?

I believe he is a weak little worm who was once a very beautiful angel who can tell people lies but that's about it. He's been fatally wounded by Jesus's death and now is sulking about trying to convince himself that he will recover.

Yes, he can say things to us (as can our own desires). No, he can't make us do anything. He can't even make us want to do something.

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by HLGStrider
Want me to add my input on the devil?

I believe he is a weak little worm who was once a very beautiful angel who can tell people lies but that's about it. He's been fatally wounded by Jesus's death and now is sulking about trying to convince himself that he will recover.

Yes, he can say things to us (as can our own desires). No, he can't make us do anything. He can't even make us want to do something.

No he cant, he isnt real, he was created by males (yes males) when the females ruled the social order of things, they created him, scared the females and it has made a lasting impression, and that is the origin of the devil (ill explain better tomorrow, im pressed for time right now)

Elgee, i can admit if somthing is greater than myself and in my current state the God (the outside guy who made everything) is better than me (as in he can crush my shell body) like an ant), i can admit it, but doesnt it show that he is better to not worship him? You dont worship the bully who is twice ur hight and strenght (sp) do you? I hope not, and that is all it is, a bully God need worship and a secure God needs nothing he knows his power, why need to be worshipped?
We are all God, so worshipping him for creating me is in essence worshipping myself and i WILL NOT do that.

[HLGStrider]

You don't worship the bully because the bully has done nothing worth worshiping. He may be bigger than you in that he has more power, but he didn't create you. He didn't do you any favors. He is simply bigger than you. . .and he isn't perfect.

Well, I don't believe that God is everything, so you'll have to go on arguing that with Eriol. . .You two seem to be doing fine together.

You know your posts would be a lot easier to understand if you used more puncuation. . .
In that one sentence you should've used a : instead of a ,. . .BLAH! I'm starting to sound like an English teacher.

You didn't seem to get the idea behind my post. Worshipping God isn't bowing to his power. It is acknowledging it. It is giving God what he deserves for being what he is.

[Eliot]

Originally posted by Sarah
I am a Messianic Jew.

I know, I know. I'm dumb. Just what is a Messianic Jew?

[Talierin]

A Messianic Jew is a jew who's become a Christian

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by HLGStrider
You don't worship the bully because the bully has done nothing worth worshiping. He may be bigger than you in that he has more power, but he didn't create you. He didn't do you any favors. He is simply bigger than you. . .and he isn't perfect.

Well, I don't believe that God is everything, so you'll have to go on arguing that with Eriol. . .You two seem to be doing fine together.

You know your posts would be a lot easier to understand if you used more puncuation. . .
In that one sentence you should've used a : instead of a ,. . .BLAH! I'm starting to sound like an English teacher.

You didn't seem to get the idea behind my post. Worshipping God isn't bowing to his power. It is acknowledging it. It is giving God what he deserves for being what he is.

God is perfect, we are perfect, everything is perfect, except in humanities eyes (not Gods). We are all God because he created us from himself his very essance, therefore a perfect being created us, we MUST be perfect or else he would not be perfect as it isnt a good reflection on him/her-self. That is why the Noah flood is illogical, God made perfect beings (humanity) only to destroy it.
God can see the past, present and future (time is of course only movement of the planet Earth), so there is no real thing as "time", so he knew right from the start everything that would happen to every being that ever came on Earth ever, so why should he destroy all humanity even though he knew they were going to be that way from the beggining.
He would not let them be like that.

But it works the same as the bully, if you dont worship them then you get beaten up/killed, whatever you want to call it.

If God isnt everything; where the heck did everything come from?
You cant just create a whole universe from nothing, it had to come from somewhere, and God was the only thing there was, ergo: God it everything...

But I know Gods power, and I acknowledge it, but that doesnt mean i have to go to church every Sunday and waste my time a a boring sermon (no offence)

Sorry about the lack of punctuation :o im no good at English (even though i am English :confused: )

[Eriol]

Thôl, I will spell out -- again -- the contradiction in your ideas. It is your ideas who sound like 2+2=7. Look:

1) There is imperfection
2) God is everything
3) God is perfect

How can you combine these sentences?

If there is imperfection, and God is everything, God is imperfect. It's as simple as that.

2+2=4 -- A perfect addition

2+2=7 -- An imperfect addition

The Christian God is pleased when you do the first, and not pleased when you do the second. Your God does not care.

Not rape -- good behavior

Rape -- bad behavior

The Christian God is pleased when you do the first, and not pleased when you do the second. Your God does not care.

If your God does not care, he is beneath even you, who recognises that rape is bad behavior, and that 2+2=7 is wrong. Thôl, you know more than your God!

That's what I mean when I say you have no God. When the word "God" leaves your lips, it means nothing. And everyone of us is better than your God, because we can detect error and evil -- your God can't even do that.

No big surprise, since your God is nothing. And don't bother stating -- AGAIN -- that your God is everything and nothing and that everything is perfect. Your beliefs will not disturb the argument. No matter how many times you state it, and no matter how much you believe in it, it will remain false, as the argument shows. The best you can do is to refute the argument -- can you?

Sorry about that. But that's how it is. You are trying to convince me that 2+2=7, and your argument for it is that you are SURE of it, that God told you that, etc. Well, not even with these arguments, I'm going to believe it. And if you entered this thread with the spirit of examining your beliefs instead of just stating them, you won't believe it either.

[Celebthôl]

No, what i am saying is that my God doesnt care if we do 2+2=7.

He has no judgement on our lives, we are him so all we are doing to living him.

Your God judges us, mine just watches and waits for us to return to him.

Let me ask you this:

If a little baby grows up in the forrest and just bes himself, does God send him to Hell/Purgatory?

How is that fair, your God is NOT fair at all! And an unfair God is no God at all, but a farse!

My God is all loving and puts it into practise by letting all souls go to heaven indeed there is no other place for them to go, that is a real God!

Yes my God is both perfect and imperfect and i can see you cant handle that and cant comprehend it, but lucky for you, you dont have to, you will go to him no matter what!

I have already told you that rapists are around due to our society, NOT due to God he will never interfier with our lives, to do defeats the purpose of existance, and altars our free will.

I am examining them, but you cant accept them, you have to accept them before we can continue, i had to with yours, and you have to with mine.

[Eriol]

Sigh...

you have to accept them before we can continue, i had to with yours, and you have to with mine.

No, Thôl. If you tell me that 2+2=7, I don't have to accept it. You keep on hammering that it is right BECAUSE you believe it, when it is the other way around -- you should believe it BECAUSE it's right.

Your beliefs are self-contradictory. Your God does not exist. You concluded this, not I! It may come as a shock to you, but I only used the information you provided in the reasoning. If you don't refute it, it's game over.

Note how you use a standard of fairness to say that our God is not fair. That is well and good. But YOUR OWN GOD does not recognise your standard of fairness! He does not care. So you are calling on a non-existent authority to uphold a standard that is not even cared for by this non-existent authority. Who is decreeing that "it is not fair"? Surely not your God, he does not acknowledge "fairness". Then it must be you. See? YOU ARE AN ATHEIST. You define fairness and say that some things are fair or not, depending on your own standard, which is based only on yourself, not on a higher power. That's atheism.

Checkmate; game over, Thôl. You either CHANGE your beliefs, or refute the reasoning, or give up logic. My own beliefs have nothing to do with it.

[Celebthôl]

*Sigh*

What is more important your imortal soul, or your earthly body?

Your not listening, or choosing not to, my God does NOT care that 2+2=7

[Eriol]

Which of the three options you chose, Thôl?

I'll answer you when you answer me.

[Celebthôl]

None of them as none of them are what i believe...

[Eriol]

I'm not talking with your God, Thôl, I'm talking with you. YOU care about whether 2+2=7, right?

As I said, you can either refute my reasoning, change your beliefs, or abandond logic. It seems you chose the third option. The discussion is over, we can't argue anything without logic.

It was fun... thanks and good luck.

[Celebthôl]

I am not refuting logic, that is how you interperate it, i cant help you there.

First explain what refute means please...then i can decide properly

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
I am not refuting logic, that is how you interperate it, i cant help you there.

First explain what refute means please...then i can decide properly

Refute = detect an error. Refuting the reasoning means you detect an error in the reasoning.

And the interpretation is provided by you only, my friend. I did not interpret anything -- I just asked you questions.

Your beliefs are just as correct as 2+2=7. No interpretation is needed to see the error.

[Celebthôl]

I still cant see how that is the case?
I am talking spritual, that is very much earthly...

I believe i refute (i think) and i dont think i have explained fully. Ask me any question on my belief and i shall answer it full (but PLEASE not that rape one coz its annoying me now)

[HLGStrider]

I see another bit of illogic in Pantheism in general. Can God fight against himself?

According to Christian logic (and Abraham Lincoln) a house divided against itself cannot stand. Is this true or not?

As I see it, a pantheistic god as Cel describes would be constantly divided.

Humans fight against each other. Forces fight against each other. Opinions fight against each other.

How can this god stand and be anything?

Mathematically 1 and negative one added together is nothing. . .if we go by the same logic, two opposites produce nothing. . .That's why Pantheism seems to lead to a nothing to me. . .Does God have to be logical, Cel? Eriol is stating that yours isn't and yet you accuse him of thinking "earthly."

Yet, you started this thread to argue that Christianity is illogical. According to your views on your faith it doesn't matter if your faith is illogical, but it does if Christianity is. . .?

How do you find truth if you can't use logic?

I believe in revelation, but my revelation and yours are different, so we have a conflict of revelations there.

[Celebthôl]

Ok...

The souls of us that are the very essence of God, they NEVER fight, and no, God doesnt fight against himself, that would be the same and myself fighting myself, what possible purpose is there in it.

Our minds and bodies fight because of a little thing called "free will", our emotions that we cannot control (the mutated ones (for want of a better word)), Anger, Hate, Jealousy, they all cause fighting, but why should God show these emotions? What would it serve to do? He can as he is everything, but he does not because well, it is folly.

[Eriol]

You have not shown any error in the reasoning, Thôl. Here is the reasoning:

Originally posted by Eriol
Thôl, I will spell out -- again -- the contradiction in your ideas. It is your ideas who sound like 2+2=7. Look:

1) There is imperfection
2) God is everything
3) God is perfect

How can you combine these sentences?

If there is imperfection, and God is everything, God is imperfect. It's as simple as that.

2+2=4 -- A perfect addition

2+2=7 -- An imperfect addition

The Christian God is pleased when you do the first, and not pleased when you do the second. Your God does not care.

Not rape -- good behavior

Rape -- bad behavior

The Christian God is pleased when you do the first, and not pleased when you do the second. Your God does not care.

If your God does not care, he is beneath even you, who recognises that rape is bad behavior, and that 2+2=7 is wrong. Thôl, you know more than your God!

That's what I mean when I say you have no God. When the word "God" leaves your lips, it means nothing. And everyone of us is better than your God, because we can detect error and evil -- your God can't even do that.

No big surprise, since your God is nothing. And don't bother stating -- AGAIN -- that your God is everything and nothing and that everything is perfect. Your beliefs will not disturb the argument. No matter how many times you state it, and no matter how much you believe in it, it will remain false, as the argument shows. The best you can do is to refute the argument -- can you?

Sorry about that. But that's how it is. You are trying to convince me that 2+2=7, and your argument for it is that you are SURE of it, that God told you that, etc. Well, not even with these arguments, I'm going to believe it. And if you entered this thread with the spirit of examining your beliefs instead of just stating them, you won't believe it either.

Now show me the error. Do not simply state that it is wrong -- show me the error in the reasoning.

Stating that something is wrong does not make it wrong -- just as stating that something is right does not make it right.

That train of thought that Elgee is embarking on is another major problem with Pantheism. But you do not even follow pantheism -- you follow yourself, and call your opinions "God".

Pantheists deny that there is good or evil, they say that it is all illusion. You had that belief in the beginning of the thread, but as we explored it, you agreed that there is good/evil, since people act. One way or another, you have a problem. You can either choose between atheism's problem (which is that there is no God) or pantheism's problem (which is that there is no Good).

You seem attached to the word "God", so I guess you will choose the second option. But we will have to get back to the point when you said there was no Good/Evil, and I argued against it.

As we are now in the argument, Good/Evil is a given. If you choose to retract your steps, you will have to reread and refute the arguments about good/evil.

[Celebthôl]

I still believe that there is no "right/good" or "wrong/bad" (whatever you want to call it) Ionly said there was to let the discussion go ahead!
But as i have quoted, there is only that which serves us and that which does not.

Yes God is everything, and that encompassed perfection aswell as imperfection.

We are all perfect, as we were made by God in his likeness, and you have to admit we are perfect, or else you are not agreeing with your version of God.

Now we all have the power to be either "good" or "evil" (your words not mine), so does God, you yourself do to, but are you ever "evil"? from what i have seen of you, you dont evn come close to it, and it is the same with God, he can if he wanted reign bolts of lightning on us all and make this world hell if he wanted to, i daresay any all powerful God could, but what woud be the purpose of that?

He is an all loving God and therefore loves and does not hate, all his children on this earth.

No this stupid equasion thing (which is annoying me)

When does 2+2=7?

When it serves you to be.

I choose neither option as neither of them describe my beliefs, though the second one is closer, but i also believe that there is no "evil" aswell.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Celebthôl

When does 2+2=7?

When it serves you to be.

I choose neither option as neither of them describe my beliefs, though the second one is closer, but i also believe that there is no "evil" aswell.

Good for you, Thôl -- but it means that the discussion is over. You have abandoned logic. 2+2=7 is ALWAYS wrong, no matter whether it serves you or not. So if you believe that it can be right when it serves you, you have abandoned logic. Once again, good luck.

As for "choosing neither", that is also not logic. It is as if you said that 2+2=7 is both right AND wrong, or neither. It's logically impossible. You MUST choose one option -- the only way out is by abandoning logic.

Since you did that, it is over.

He is an all loving God and therefore loves and does not hate, all his children on this earth.

No, he is NOT an all-loving God, because he does not care. My God is an all-loving God, which means that he does, indeed, HATE something -- he hates error and sin. Precisely because he is all loving.

Your God does not care -- therefore he does not love. Can you love without caring, Thôl?

[Celebthôl]

Your God is not all loving, because he send your souls to Hell if you do not believe in him.

My God doesnt care what we do on this planet or what we think, but when we die we go to him no matter what, it is our souls he accepts. Therefore he does care, because he does not try to control us in the slightest little bit.

When we die we loose our minds and bodies and only our soul is left. Our minds and bodies make us different from being just God and knowing everything, (How can we experience at all we if we know everything?) therefore the parts of us that make us "bad" are gone, we are no longer males looking for a cheap victim to rape (we rise above sexual fun), and we dont kill etc.

How have i abandoned logic? Numbers exactly 0 to God.

No please answer my question...

"What is more important, your earthly body, or your imortal soul?

[Anamatar IV]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
Your God is not all loving, because he send your souls to Hell if you do not believe in him.


Contrary to that, the Christian God chooses the people that go to Heaven not Hell...

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by Anamatar IV
Contrary to that, the Christian God chooses the people that go to Heaven not Hell...

And they say Christianity is logical with an all loving God :rolleyes:

See my God lets EVERY soul into Heaven, that includes all nationalities all babies that die say at birth, all the muggers murderers and rapists.

Not because of what they did on Earth (they chose to experience that before they were born), but because they are all God, and it would be like you throwing part of your mind away.

[Elendil3119]

Originally posted by Anamatar IV
Contrary to that, the Christian God chooses the people that go to Heaven not Hell...
...and this is because [Christianity teaches that] we are all fallen sinners, deserving of eternal damnation. God doesn't condemn certain people to hell; rather, before the beginning of the world He preordained who would be saved.