Númenórean long lifespan - A mistake?

[gate7ole]

We read from Myths Tranformed (passage XI):
But let us suppose that the 'blessing of Aman' was also accorded to Men. What then? Would a great good be done to them? Their bodies would still come swiftly to full growth. In the seventh part of a year a Man could be born and become full-grown, as swiftly as in Aman a bird would hatch and fly from the nest. But then it would not wither or age but would endure in vigour and in the delight of bodily living. But what of that Man's fëa? Its nature and 'doom' could not be changed, neither by the health of Aman nor by the will of Manwë himself. Yet it is (as the Eldar hold) its nature and doom under the will of Eru that it should not endure Arda for long, but should depart and go elsewhither, returning maybe direct to Eru for another fate or purpose that is beyond the knowledge or guess of the Eldar.
Very soon then the fëa and hröa of a Man in Aman would not be united and at peace, but would be opposed, to the great pain of both. The hröa being in full vigour and joy of life would cling to the fëa, lest its departure should bring death; and against death it would revolt as would a great beast in full life either flee from the hunter or turn savagely upon him. But the fëa would be as it were in prison, becoming ever more weary of all the delights of the hröa, until they were loathsome to it, longing ever more and more to be gone, until even those matters for its thought that it received through the hröa and its senses became meaningless. The Man would not be blessed, but accursed; and he would curse the Valar and Aman and all the things of Arda.
Especially the second paragraph refers to the effects of long-livety of Men. The natural question that rises is whether that happened to the long-lived Númenóreans. They were given even 400 years of life. Is this time long enough for the fëa to become tired of life? Did the hroa drag the fëa too long and imprison it in Valinor? Maybe this was the source of the unrest of the Númenóreans, who wanted to live forever. The hroa prevailed over the fëa.
If this is correct, then wasn’t it wrong to give to the Númenóreans such a long span-life? I’m not sure if it was an action from the Valar or Eru himself, but if it was the Valar’s choice, maybe they erred at this point and should never give to the mortals such life span that the fëa wasn’t able to endure.
Opinions?

[Ithrynluin]

Is this time long enough for the fëa to become tired of life? Did the hroa drag the fëa too long and imprison it in Valinor?

I don't think this was a mistake on the part of the Valar (or whoever it was that granted them such a long life span, possible Eru himself) to prolong their lives. There were those Men who lived long and were content with their lives - look at Elros who lived to be 510 years old and gave up his life 'when the time came' - this weariness' was somehow felt, and it was up to every single individual to make a choice:

[list=1]
Either relinquish life willingly, and die still in vigour of body and mind

Or refuse to give it up and come into a decrepit and dishonourable state, and die in pain and bitterness
[/list=1]

The second was a sign of the marring and malcontent brought about by Sauron who poisoned the minds of the Numenoreans - or at least those who would hearken to his whisperings (and they were numerous).

[gate7ole]

What if it was not Sauron that poisoned their minds, but it was Arda Marred caused by Morgoth, that finally came to Numenor again? Because the way I see it, it was not the mind that made the Numenoreans feel unrest, it was their body- the body that suffered the marring of Morgoth.
You spoke of Elros and the first line of Numenorean kings that gave their life freely. Maybe (I'm not sure at all if what I say sounds at all correct) the elvish strain was too powerful in Elros and the first descendants - which probably made their fea (though mortal) more powerul (and we know that the Elves could control their hroa better). Of course, we can't deny that the first kings seemed more wise and probably they understood their gift from Iluvatar.
But reading the passage that I quoted before, it seems that prolonging life does not have good effect on mortals, which is very much like the Numenorean case (at least of the later kings).

[Ithrynluin]

What if it was not Sauron that poisoned their minds, but it was Arda Marred caused by Morgoth

I thought about this too. Was Numenor part of Arda Marred? It was raised out of the Great Sea. Now we know that Morgoth poured his malice and his very being into all the continents of Arda (save Aman), but did he have power over the ocean floor? I would think not (?). But perhaps there was a Melkor element even in the air they breathed, and even though he was confined to the Void he could perhaps still put subtle whispers of evil and malcontent into their ears.

Maybe the elvish strain was too powerful in Elros and the first descendants - which probably made their fea (though mortal) more powerul

An interesting theory. Indeed it may have been a strong Elvish strain that made the first Kings of Numenor more patient, wise and content with their fate. But as the Elvish strain became diluted, so the life-span shortened...

But reading the passage that I quoted before, it seems that prolonging life does not have good effect on mortals, which is very much like the Numenorean case (at least of the later kings).

Granting the Numenoreans long life was a reward from Eru. If you do good, you shall be rewarded for your deeds. The Men that fought on Melkor's side during the First Age (and later on Sauron's side) were not allowed passage to Numenor, but continued living in the twilight of Middle Earth, their judgement and wisdom clouded by the lies that have been sown into their races by Melkor and Sauron. The Men of the three races were accordingly rewarded with a new home far from the troubles of Middle Earth.

[Nóm]

I think the lifespan was lengthend by the removal of men to a less marred land, causing the hroar of men to last longer, but having less effect on their fear. I'd guess Numenor's level of marring was in between that of Aman and Middle-earth, but Numenor can not have been entirely unmarred, because in it were people made of the fabric of Arda Marred. Though it must have been more marred than Aman, otherwise it would be the exact same as Aman in effect on men, would it not?

Had the life span been increased by the only other means I can think of: that is by giving men more control over their hroar with their fear, then this malcontent probably not have happend.

I think it could be a mistake if viewed a certain way. One could say that the Valar might have guessed long life would have this effect on men (see quotes below).
In this light the Valar might have been mistaken. But I am inclined to say that they may not have been, because much good ended up coming of Numenoreans anyhow. The remants of them later mingling in Middle-earth, and taking with them not only a longer life span but wisdom and knowledge of the Valar and Eldar. If this was done under Iluvatar's will then was Manwe mistaken? Look around at all the other times bad things came of the Valar's action or inaction. Maybe the Noldor should have never been brought to Aman? Yet, much good came of it anyhow, though we can be sure what would have happend had they not.


From Letter 131, also found in preface of the Second edition of The Silmarillion.

Reward on earth is more dangerous to men than Punishment!
and...

Their reward is their undoing - or the means of their temptation. Their long life aids their achievements in art and wisdom, but breeds a possessive attitude to these things, and desire awakes for more time for thier enjoyment. Forseeing this in part, the gods laid a Ban on the Numenoreans....

and..
The Downfall is partly the result of an inner weakness in Men - consequent, if you will, upon the first Fall (unrecorded in these tales), repented but not fully healed.

I believe this first fall did something to the fear of men which caused them to be unable to deal with the amount of time granted to their hroar in Numenor.

another from that letter:
In the second stage, the days of Pride and Glory and grudging of the Ban, they begin to seek wealth rather than bliss.

It could also be the result of the first fall of men that they would seek wealth rather than bliss. Wealth is really just power. Now maybe they wanted this power so they might prolong their life or even so they might be ready to fight with the Valar if it came to it. But most likely, I think, they sought wealth because it was all they could seek while experiencing the malcontent... simply gluttony. Then they also placed much wealth in tombs. As if to surround the dead in the things of life. I think this when viewed with their fear of death shows just how vital wealth had become to them in their eyes.

I think the first fall of men and Arda Marred effected the hroar and fear of men, and that the very nature of men was changed. This removal to a less marred land could undo some of the intial marring but not change the nature of men as they came to be with the first fall. So I think men were maybe lessend in body and spirit, and then later on when strengthend in body, the spirit couldn't handle it. If this is the case and the Valar knew it beyond a doubt, then it would seem a mistake. Though, maybe the Valar were ignorant of this.

But as the quote above shows, men had repented the first fall, though they were not healed. Should they not have had a chance after they repented? It could be that the Valar, or some of them guessed what the effect of this longer life would be on men, but gave the benefit of the doubt. Is it better to deprive the worthy or reward the unworthy? Yet, in this case if they were unworthy.. it would be the death of them, a punishment ultimately and not a reward. So, what really was the risk in trying?

But then the question becomes: were men really unworthy if they had truly repented? Unworthy of Numenor maybe, but unworthy enough to be punished as they were? I do not think so. But as I said above, much good spread through the race of men because of Numenor... so the race on the whole punished or rewarded? If the race on the whole is rewarded... where is the mistake?

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Nóm
I think it could be a mistake if viewed a certain way. One could say that the Valar might have guessed long life would have this effect on men (see quotes below).
In this light the Valar might have been mistaken. But I am inclined to say that they may not have been, because much good ended up coming of Numenoreans anyhow. The remants of them later mingling in Middle-earth, and taking with them not only a longer life span but wisdom and knowledge of the Valar and Eldar. If this was done under Iluvatar's will then was Manwe mistaken? Look around at all the other times bad things came of the Valar's action or inaction. Maybe the Noldor should have never been brought to Aman? Yet, much good came of it anyhow, though we can be sure what would have happend had they not.

Yes, much good was caused by the Numenoreans, but I don't think this is the way the Valar did (or should) think. I have the opinion that the downfall of Numenor was one of the few direct interventions of Eru and was not fortold in the Vision. Besides, the Atani were not limited by the Vision, but could change their lives hoever they wanted. So, my guess is that the Valar had no idea that Numenor would fall.
Of course, even if it hadn't fallen, the Numenoreans would bring much wisdom to the coasts (during their famous voyages). But is this the correct way of thinking? Shouldn't the Valar at least be able to understand that the prolonging of the life of Men would eventually cause the catastrophe? They could still give to the Numenoreans much wisdom without giving them 4 times longer life span (e.g. to pass wisdom to them through the Elves of Tol Eressea - which they actually did)

This removal to a less marred land could undo some of the intial marring but not change the nature of men as they came to be with the first fall. So I think men were maybe lessend in body and spirit, and then later on when strengthend in body, the spirit couldn't handle it.
I don't think that they were lessened in spirit at the first fall. I think that only the hroa was diminished, since Morgoth had only powers over the hroa (the fea coming directly from Eru). We read in various places (Myths Transformed, Osanwe Kenta - I think) that Morgoth could only cause fear to his slaves, by the torment of hroa (such as the threatening of death).
Also, in Athradeth, Finrod doubts whether Morgoth could change the nature of a whole race. The hroa, yes he could change, since he poured his powers on all Middle Earth. And all humans born carried his marring. But the fea? Could he alter the fea of a whole race (and make it an inheritable characteristic), so that the fea would become less strong and endurable? Firnod says no, and I have to agree with him.

But then the question becomes: were men really unworthy if they had truly repented? Unworthy of Numenor maybe, but unworthy enough to be punished as they were? I do not think so. But as I said above, much good spread through the race of men because of Numenor... so the race on the whole punished or rewarded? If the race on the whole is rewarded... where is the mistake?
I agree that none should be judged by the actions of the past. A new chance should be given. I don't say that they should be left in Middle Earth. But I disagree with the reward of long life span (or better, I don't disagree, I seek if it was correct).
You give another solution:
Had the life span been increased by the only other means I can think of: that is by giving men more control over their hroar with their fear, then this malcontent probably not have happend.
But is it possible? To give to men more control over the hroa? Doesn't it mean that they come closer to become "elvish"? Isn't is a slight alternation of their nature?
So, since they could not get more control ober the hroa and their hroa would imprison the fea after many years, I can't find any way of keeping this gift to the Numenoreans, but without its side-effects.

[Nóm]

On your first point:

I agree that just because something good came of it anyhow, does not make the Valar right in having done it. But, since Manwe is working under Iluvatar, there is a chance this was the will of Iluvatar. That aside, it could not seem like anything other than a mistake, to me.

Second point:

I agree with Finrod too.
I do not think Melkor changed the fear of men, if anyone did it was Iluvatar.

Perhaps I was not clear enough, but when I put 'the fall of men' and 'Arda Marred' together as the causes of 'the lessening of the hroar and fear of men' I ment that Arda Marred would lessen the hroa and that the lessening of the fea would be the fall.

gate7ole

Had the life span been increased by the only other means I can think of: that is by giving men more control over their hroar with their fear, then this malcontent probably not have happend.



But is it possible? To give to men more control over the hroa? Doesn't it mean that they come closer to become "elvish"? Isn't is a slight alternation of their nature?
I would say it was not possible for the Valar to do this, only Eru.

I can't find any way of keeping this gift to the Numenoreans, but without its side-effects.
If you believe Eru changed the nature of men in any way during the first fall, then him resoring that orginal nature would be the only way I can imagine.

Doesn't it mean that they come closer to become "elvish"? Isn't is a slight alternation of their nature?

Alteration - yes it would be. More elvish? I guess you could say that.
And is not the ability to die of one own's freewill a part of the fea's control over the hroa? I imagine men would have this ability if not for the fall. That they would have more control over the hroa with the fea, but would weary and give up life before they could live long enough for the power over the hroa with the fear to increase to the masterful point it does with elves.

[Eriol]

Very interesting topic. Let me give you a few bits of information about Catholic doctrine on immortality. Why? Because I think that Tolkien spent most of his later philosophical musings trying to "adapt" his legends to Catholicism. (I got that impression from some letters, I think -- I can't quite put my finger of it. Perhaps I'm dreaming). And one of the thorniest problems in this adaptation is this mortality/immortality conundrum.

According to Catholicism, Man is not naturally mortal. Death was a result of the Fall, a result of Man's disobedience and refusal of God. (Andreth would like to hear that :D). And death will be vanquished after the Resurrection (which would be Arda Restored), never to be seen again.

Also, according to Catholicism, man is both body and soul. This means that the soul MUST have a body to be in the natural state -- disembodied souls are "unnatural", and this is a source of unhappiness for the soul. There is no fight between soul and body before the Fall; and even after the Fall, the soul's natural state is with a body.

I think the Athrabeth is heavily influenced by these two Catholic doctrines.

Now. Even if Tolkien wanted to make his legend coherent with Catholic doctrine, it does not mean that Catholic doctrine can shed any light on the legends themselves. And this topic is a case in point, as I see it. For if Catholicism were accepted as true in Tolkien's world, it would mean that the longevity of Numenoreans is closer to the natural state of mankind. Clearly Tolkien did not intend that, as the quotes by Nóm show. In his mind, the "gift" of the Numenoreans was the reason for their second Fall ("reward is more dangerous than punishment").

So how do we look at the question gate7ole proposed then?

I think that the most important point in man's spiritual constitution in Arda is that their fëar do not belong in Arda. This would be so even if there had been no Marring. The fight between hröa and fëa that is the result of the Marring (or at least of the First Fall of men) is not the reason behind this incompability of men's fëar and Arda. It aggravates it; it makes the life of men more miserable and painful; but even in Arda Unmarred, men would die*.

Men die naturally; their hröa and fëa, however, are not "natural enemies" -- they have become enemies as a result of the Fall.

Given these two facts, what is the bearing of the specific gift of longevity (considered apart from wisdom, a nice island, etc.)? What is the result of the greater span? Quite obviously, unless the enmity between hröa and fëa is amended, the result is a longer "warfare". But this would mean a quicker tiring of life, wouldn't it? This is exactly what did not happen. The Numenoreans were enamored of long life -- not tired of it. So I don't think we can ascribe their Second Fall to an enmity between hröa and fëa.

But let us look now at the evolution of the Numenorean "shadow". As the years went by, their lifespans became shorter, and they began to die "unwillingly", clinging to their lives. This is indicative that the fëa has grown enamored of Arda, which is NOT the natural state. And this, I think, is the major deleterious effect of the increased lifespan. The fëa was DESIGNED to abandon Arda after a while -- by staying on for longer, it became more engrossed with it. So in the end I don't think that it had anything to do with their hröar; I think that the second Fall was the result of "too much bliss", longevity PLUS all the other gifts. In other words, if all Numenoreans lived like Aragorn (from danger to danger) they would not grow as enamored as they did.

And this would mean that the error of the Valar, if there was any, was magnified by their throwing in wisdom, a nice island, etc. in the gift package.




*if we accept the Elvish legendarium as true, which is a thorny issue. I've read the Athrabeth closely to check on this matter. It is quite likely that Tolkien intended it to mean precisely that -- that the Elvish legends of Man's innate mortality are wrong, and that the lore of Andreth is the true story -- therefore making it compatible with Catholicism. The allusion to Eru "entering Arda" is quite telling.

[Ithrynluin]

by Nóm
Though it must have been more marred than Aman, otherwise it would be the exact same as Aman in effect on men, would it not?

So is the level of taintedness the only thing that makes Aman different from Middle Earth? I would think there's more to it - the very presence of the Ainur dwelling there...

by Nóm
I think the first fall of men and Arda Marred effected the hroar and fear of men, and that the very nature of men was changed.

Who exactly was responsible for lengthening the life-span of the Numenoreans? I would assume it was Iluvatar, that he was the only one who could change the very nature of the children, and not even the Valar could do that. But then we have the first fall of Man, of which we only hear distand rumours in the Athrabeth (HoME X). Clearly Melkor was the one who caused this fall - but how can he have altered this?

by gate7ole
Shouldn't the Valar at least be able to understand that the prolonging of the life of Men would eventually cause the catastrophe? They could still give to the Numenoreans much wisdom without giving them 4 times longer life span (e.g. to pass wisdom to them through the Elves of Tol Eressea - which they actually did)

But was there time to accumulate all this knowledge and wisdom in the ordinary life-span of Men (cca 100 years)?

by gate7ole
I don't think that they were lessened in spirit at the first fall. I think that only the hroa was diminished, since Morgoth had only powers over the hroa (the fea coming directly from Eru). We read in various places (Myths Transformed, Osanwe Kenta - I think) that Morgoth could only cause fear to his slaves, by the torment of hroa (such as the threatening of death).

Yes, I think I read this too - In Myths Transformed. So what did Morgoth do to their hroa? Did he shorten its life span? How long were Men supposed to live before Melkor's intervention? Maybe as much as the Numenoreans later on - so Eru giving Numenoreans prolonged life could perhaps be viewed as a restoration of their original life-span.

[gate7ole]

For Nom's last post:
You suggest that Eru lessened the power of the fea of the Atani, because of their first fall? So, in a way, you accept Andreth’ s suggestion that they were actually “punished” by the One, although you point this change in the fea and not the hroa as their tales say.
It is possible, but I have some strong objections against it:
First, it is not according to how Tolkien pictures Eru. He is not a “revenge” god, punishing its creations for their sins. We read:
Silmarillion Ch.1
But Ilúvatar knew that Men, being set amid the turmoils of the powers of the world, would
stray often, and would not use their gifts in harmony; and he said: ''These too in their time shall find
that all that they do redounds at the end only to the glory of my work.'
Ilúvatar knows that Men will stray often. Actually, [i]he[/]I made them like this, being independent of the Music. This quote doesn’t sound that he would punish them, but that from their sins, new unforeseen better things would arise (e.g. Numenorean realms in Exile).

Second, this lessening of the fea of Men would mean a change in the nature of the race, inherited through the ages. We don’t doubt that only Eru can do it. But would he punish so hard a race because of the sins of the Fathers? Remember that the First Fall comes very early, at the first generation of Men. It would be unjust to punish all the descendants for these sins.
Let’s compare it with the punishment of Númenor. They were utterly destroyed. But the heirs (Elendil) survived and they did not bring along the punishment – it did not touch the later generations (like the change of fea you suggest). It doesn’t sound right, to punish a whole race for their first 60 years of behaviour so severely and punish lighter the Númenóreans, who also had the etaching and guidance of the Elves (and Eönwë).

Because of those two reasons, I don’t find it very possible that Eru would go that far. Of course we can’t know for sure. And the passages of Silmarillion referring to this (like the quote I provided), are two times away from the truth (spoken from Valar to Elves and from Elves to Men). It is not impossible that this “optimistic” view that whatever Men do they “in their time shall find that all that they do redounds at the end only to the glory of my work”, is rather the hope of Men and they that [i]didn’t[/] actually fall from the grace of Ilúvatar.

[Lhunithiliel]

Gate7ole: If this is correct, then wasn’t it wrong to give to the Númenóreans such a long span-life? I’m not sure if it was an action from the Valar or Eru himself.
I think that was a “gift” from Manwe. I can assume, however, that such an authority must have been granted to him by Eru.

But then a question arises: If Eru had permitted such an act, was it meant to :

A/ just to thank Men for what they did for the Elves? If so, then the belief that Eru loved BOTH his children equally becomes somewhat “shaky”. Don’t you think so? Why would he be so generous at that point and not ever before and not ever after? But on the other hand, when else in the story do we see the direct intervention of Eru to praise or punish the Elves as he did it with Men?
In very plain words… Which of the two races – Elves or Men – as children of the One, was his favourite, taking into consideration what he did and did not for the ones and what – for the others?
Or
B/ was it a method that Eru had chosen to show to Men that immortality is not a gift they should mourn about? Could it be a “lesson” by Eru, taught to Men in order to help them understand the great gift they had received from him? In other words – an opportunity for the fear of Men to “show up” finally its true power and meaning.

Try to descend to the very low, everyday level of the very long life of the Numenoreans. They were normal Men with all their joys and grieves, with all the successes and mistakes they had achieved in their lives, with all the feelings and thoughts but also with all the questions about the universe they lived in, about the ways of the world, about their fate, about the Gods and the Elves…
All these came from the mind. The mind however comes from the fea… And what if the fea had found these answers and wanted to accomplish what was meant for it by its creator?
And what if the fea got tired of being enclosed in the “shell” of the hroa? What if the fea of the first-generation - Numenoreans had reached these heights of its existence? Then it surely must have controlled the bodies.
It seems simple – in one moment the fea decides to do what it was meant for and commanded the mind to let the body die and free it.
From outside, it all may have looked as some very special deed done by the Numenorean himself. But was it so, I wonder?

As for the “misbehaviour” of the Numenorean fear in later times, I here agree with Eriol, although myself being almost ignorant on religious matters and didn’t know too much about the doctrines of Catholocism.
Eriol: As the years went by, their lifespans became shorter, and they began to die "unwillingly", clinging to their lives. This is indicative that the fëa has grown enamored of Arda, which is NOT the natural state. And this, I think, is the major deleterious effect of the increased lifespan. The fëa was DESIGNED to abandon Arda after a while -- by staying on for longer, it became more engrossed with it. So in the end I don't think that it had anything to do with their hröar; I think that the second Fall was the result of "too much bliss", longevity PLUS all the other gifts. In other words, if all Numenoreans lived like Aragorn (from danger to danger) they would not grow as enamored as they did.

Gate7ole: Is this time long enough for the fëa to become tired of life? Did the hroa drag the fëa too long and imprison it in Valinor? Maybe this was the source of the unrest of the Númenóreans, who wanted to live forever. The hroa prevailed over the fëa.

Because the way I see it, it was not the mind that made the Numenoreans feel unrest, it was their body- the body that suffered the marring of Morgoth.
Ah! See……If the body is just a “shell”, what decisions could it have taken? To take a sensible decision a mind is needed and the mind IS a characteristic or a feature of the fea. The way I see it is that it had ever and always been the fea that controlled the life of Men and it was its underestimating or rather its not-understanding that caused all their troubles.
Hence, I too agree that Melkor could not have done much in these matters.
Eriol: but even in Arda Unmarred, men would die*.
(Eriol, I started quoting you as if you were Tolkien himself! ;) :D )

Summarizing all the above (I hope it made sense), I’d say that if there was a mistake to be looked for on behalf of the Valar, then it must have been that they poured too much good and bliss to Men’s lives – thus causing the fear of the later Numenoreans to sort of “forget” its purpose and true predestination.

*******
I would like to add that this is a very good topic and there is much to think about ... or to speculate.. ?

:rolleyes: :confused:

[gate7ole]

posted by Eriol
But let us look now at the evolution of the Numenorean "shadow". As the years went by, their lifespans became shorter, and they began to die "unwillingly", clinging to their lives. This is indicative that the fëa has grown enamored of Arda, which is NOT the natural state. And this, I think, is the major deleterious effect of the increased lifespan. The fëa was DESIGNED to abandon Arda after a while -- by staying on for longer, it became more engrossed with it. So in the end I don't think that it had anything to do with their hröar; I think that the second Fall was the result of "too much bliss", longevity PLUS all the other gifts. In other words, if all Numenoreans lived like Aragorn (from danger to danger) they would not grow as enamored as they did.
For me it is fundamental to understand that there was no change it the fea of Men. The effects you describe seem to have roots in the fea, but I think that their root is to the prolonging of the life of fea in Arda, which has ultimately to do with the hroa.
But since I reject the change of the fea after the first fall, and since the change in the hroa is not only concerning Men but the whole Arda, it seems to me that I don’t propose any special concequence of the first Fall. My best guess is that the hroa of Men is eventually much more altered than that of the rest Arda. It becomes much more dominant, pressing the fea to seek immortality, so that death would be seen as a punishment and not as a gift.
if we accept the Elvish legendarium as true, which is a thorny issue. I've read the Athrabeth closely to check on this matter. It is quite likely that Tolkien intended it to mean precisely that -- that the Elvish legends of Man's innate mortality are wrong, and that the lore of Andreth is the true story -- therefore making it compatible with Catholicism. The allusion to Eru "entering Arda" is quite telling.
We seem to redefine the writing much different, but in a sense the same. You say that maybe the tales of Elves are wrong and lore of the Men was correct (at least concerning the nature of Men). My suggestion is that Men changed the tales (on purpose or unconsciously) to a more “optimistic” fate (see my previous post). To be honest, I didn’t like the “Christianic” enter of Eru in Arda. Maybe Tolkien had in mind only to give to the Atani “Christian”-like religion, although it may be wrong in the context of Arda, so that to bring them to the current situation of real life.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by gate7ole
For me it is fundamental to understand that there was no change it the fea of Men. The effects you describe seem to have roots in the fea, but I think that their root is to the prolonging of the life of fea in Arda, which has ultimately to do with the hroa.
But since I reject the change of the fea after the first fall, and since the change in the hroa is not only concerning Men but the whole Arda, it seems to me that I don’t propose any special concequence of the first Fall. My best guess is that the hroa of Men is eventually much more altered than that of the rest Arda. It becomes much more dominant, pressing the fea to seek immortality, so that death would be seen as a punishment and not as a gift.

I agree that there was no change in the fëa of men. What I think happened was that that fëa, which was originally designed to leave Arda after a while, "forgot" this fundamental fact of its nature, due to the many blessings and power of the Numenoreans. This lack of self-knowledge doomed the Numenoreans. It is not Melkor's mischief, but the failings in the Numenoreans themselves who doomed them. Sure, these failings were originally spawned by Melkor's mischief, but it is not "a change in the fëa" -- only a change in the self-knowledge of the fëa.

In other words, they believed in Melkor's lies of immortality -- which of course prepared them for Sauron's lies of immortality. (Assuming the Elvish legends are right!)

We seem to redefine the writing much different, but in a sense the same. You say that maybe the tales of Elves are wrong and lore of the Men was correct (at least concerning the nature of Men). My suggestion is that Men changed the tales (on purpose or unconsciously) to a more “optimistic” fate (see my previous post). To be honest, I didn’t like the “Christianic” enter of Eru in Arda. Maybe Tolkien had in mind only to give to the Atani “Christian”-like religion, although it may be wrong in the context of Arda, so that to bring them to the current situation of real life.

Yes, we have two conflicting accounts of Men's nature here. Which one is correct? From the point of view of readers, informed mostly by Pengolodh & Co., surely the Elves, for they got the information from the direct sources -- the Valar, which in turn got it from Eru himself.

However, there is the word of Tolkien himself claiming that "God is the Lord of angels, men -- and Elves", and that his myth is believable by one who "believes in the Blessed Trinity". I think it was very clear in Tolkien's mind that Eru was God -- the Christian God, the God that he worshipped every sunday. Arda, to him, was our Earth -- that is also clear to me. So that to imagine he gave the Atani a Christian-like hope does not make sense if this hope was a false hope. It only makes sense if it is true -- for Tolkien himself believed it was true.

The "Andreth lore", unbelievable to a Finrod, is more compatible with Tolkien's own ideas about the nature of Eru. This may be seen as a sort of "cheating" -- using Tolkien's personal beliefs to strengthen a position. I don't know.

I just imagine that if I asked Tolkien whether Finrod was right or not at that point, he (Tolkien) would be silent. But in his mind I think he would agree with Andreth.

An interesting thought is that perhaps the blunder of the Valar is a hint showing that Andreth is right (I believe it was a blunder, and my main reason for that is the extreme remedy necessary -- Eru's direct intervention in the world and its laws, the only case recorded). For the Valar thought that Numenoreans would live as "little elves", be nice and happy forever. They thought that Men were resigned to their mortal destiny. But if Andreth is right and death is NOT their destiny, then the Valar can be excused through their own ignorance of men's nature.

An interesting aside is that Eru never said anything about "death". He always used the word "Gift'. Can it be that the Valar misinterpreted him to mean "death"? And the "Gift" of men would be something completely unlike that, like that ability to break fate, or perhaps the Incarnation of Eru himself.

I am just letting my mind roam here. I don't have access to the books right now to check these other two speculations.

[Eriol]

Sure it is speculation... just as you are speculating that Tolkien did not want to mix the "somewhat strange Catholic doctrines" with his myth. It is as if you think Tolkien was a "non-believer in the closet".

But my speculation is corroborated by the many instances in which Tolkien referred to his myth as related to our Earth, and to the many instances of true Catholic faith reported in the Letters. I'm sure you know them and do not want me to go digging for them :D. They show that (1) Tolkien was a real believer and (2) that he wanted his myth to "agree" with the real world as closely as possible. "Real world", to a believer, includes the Christian God.

I find it funny that people who do not like Catholicism usually try to ascribe it to a lack of education. So Tolkien was trying to reconcile his "educated intellect" with the "strange Catholic doctrines", is it?

:rolleyes:

Let's get on merrily speculating then :D.

This is one point raised, whether Tolkien was a true Catholic. The other point is whether the Valar did a mistake -- and that question must build upon our theories about the fëar and hröar of men, of which, as Walter said, there is little information. In fact only the Athrabeth deals with it specifically as far as I'm aware (i.e., of men's souls and bodies as distinct from those of Elves). There are some clues in Myths Transformed, and Laws and Customs. Not enough to be certain of anything.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Walter
However, what I seem to notice frequently here is, that Catholics try to "kidnap" Tolkien and/or his epos to support Catholicism, something I am not very partial of and - honestly - I don't think Tolkien ever intended that with his sub-creation.

Well then, both of our "partialities" have been exposed, cordially :D What do you think of the question of the thread? Was it a mistake by the Valar? Or an effect of the marring that they had no chance or opportunity to foresee?

[gate7ole]

OK, back in topic then :D
I simply cannot just reject Numenor as part of Tolkien's mythology, as something not consistent. It is true that he did not come back to the tale of Numenor after the cosmological changes made at the later stage of his work. I may try to explain scholarly something that Tolkien himself never gave much thought - that's the risk of studying a fictional world. But I will try my best, even though there may be no answer.

Any other views on the matter?
I think that in order to understand whether the Valar did a mistake in giving longer life span, we must first understand what was the First Fall of Men. And then link it to the late passage concerning the "inability" of Men to live in Aman (given in the opening post).

[Eriol]

I agree that whatever the origin of Númenor in Tolkien's myth, it has no bearing on its place in the mythology. In other words, even if Tolkien did build upon the story of Atlantis and of a Golden Age, it does not look very "Tolkienish" to leave that "graft" without fine-tuning. It would be very hard to convince me that Tolkien did not try to adapt the story of Númenor to his later conceptions.

(In fact, the first quote of this thread shows that he was thinking in that direction).

I also agree with gate7ole that the answer, if there is any, goes through the First Fall of men. And this is the choice: we have two accounts of this Fall, the Elvish and the Mannish, and they are fairly contradictory (as seen in the Athrabeth). So we have to choose between one or the other.

It is at this moment that our "partialities" take over ;).

But according to which side we choose as ultimately correct, we will have a different scenario:

If the Elves are correct, then the Second Fall was mainly the result of the fëa becoming over-engrossed with Arda, beyond what is natural for her. The mistake would then to make Men's lives more blessed than they naturally would be. In this "natural" state Men would be glad to leave Arda; in the Númenorean state, they were angry to be leaving. A cause at odds with the cause of the First Fall, in an odd way -- the first fall would be caused by a greed for something that Men could not have (Melkor's power); the second fall would be simply a greed for MORE of what they already had.

If Men are correct, the Second Fall is a direct consequence of the First Fall, and could happen even outside Numenor -- it is a consequence of the unnatural state in which Men were leaving, a state with death. The effect of Numenor would be simply to give to Men the means to achieve the undoing of the first fall -- they believed that by invading Valinor they would have the bliss that was originally theirs.

In other words -- if Elves are correct, the Second Fall is clearly the fault of the Valar; if Men are correct, the Second Fall was bound to happen, either militarily or scientifically or in some other way. Men were bound to yearn for immortality, since it is the natural state of mankind. The Valar would be blamed simply as "facilitators", and not as direct cause.

[Eriol]

Some quotes that may be of interest to our discussion.

This is the excerpt from the 1951 letter (Letter 131) which was mentioned by Walter:

For reasons which I will not elaborate, that [inclusion of Christian religion – inserted by Eriol]seems to me fatal. Myth and fairy-story must, as all art, reflect and contain in solution elements of moral and religious truth (or error), but not explicit, not in the known form of the primary ‘real’ world. (I am speaking, of course, of our present situation, not of ancient pagan, pre-Christian days...)

An excerpt from a draft which is probably from around 1958 (from Letter 212):

“In this mythical ‘prehistory’ immortality, strictly longevity co-extensive with the life of Arda, was part of the given nature of the Elves; beyond the End nothing was revealed. Mortality, that is a short life-span having no relation to the life of Arda, is spoken of as the given nature of Men: the Elves called it the Gift of Ilúvatar (God). But it must be remembered that mythically these tales are Elf-centred,* not anthropocentrric, and Men only appear in them, at what must be a point long after their Coming. This is therefore an ‘Elvish’ view, and does not necessarily have anything to say for or against such beliefs as the Christian that ‘death’ is not a part of human nature, but a punishment for sin (rebellion), a result of the ‘Fall’. It should regarded as an Elvish perception of what death – not being tied to the ‘circles of the world’ – should now become for Men, however it arose. A divine ‘punishment’ is also a divine ‘gift’, if accepted, since its object is ultimate blessing, and the supreme inventiveness of the Creator will make ‘punishments’ (that is changes of design) produce a good not otherwise to be attained: a ‘mortal’ Man has probably (an Elf would say) a higher if unrevealed destiny than a longeval one. To attempt by device or ‘magic’ to recover longevity is thus a supreme folly and wickedness of ‘mortals’. Longevity or coutnerfeit ‘immortality’ (true immortality is beyond Eä) is the chief bait of Sauron – it leads the small to a Gollum, and the great to a Ringwraith.

In the Elvish legends there is record of a strange case of an Elf (Míriel mother of Fëanor) that tried to die, ,which had disastrous results, leading to the ‘Fall’ of the High-elves. The Elves were not subject to disease, but they could be ‘slain’: that is their bodies could be destrtoyed, or mutilated so as to be unfit to sustain life. But this did not lead naturally to ‘death’: they were rehabilitated and reborn and and eventually recovered memory of all their past: they remained ‘identical’. But Míriel wished to abandon being, and refused rebirth.**

I suppose a difference between this Myth and what may be perhaps be called Christian mythology is this. In the latter the Fall of Man is subsequent to and a consequence (though not a necessary consequence) of the ‘Fall of the Angels’: a rebellion of created free-will at a higher level than Man; but it is not clearly held (and in many versions is not held at all) that this affected the ‘World’ in its nature: evil was brought in from outside, from Satan. In this Myth the rebellion of created free-will precedes creation of the World (Eä); and Eä has in it, subcreatively introduced, evil, rebellions, discordant elements of its own nature already when the Let it Be was spoken. The Fall or corruption, therefore, of all things in it and all inhabitants of it, was a possibility if not inevitable. Trees may ‘go bad’ as in the Old Forest; Elves may turn into Orcs, and if this required the special preversive malice of Morgoth, still Elves themselves could do evil deeds. Even the ‘good’ Valar as inhabiting the World could at least err; (...)”

NOTES BY TOLKIEN:

*In narrative, as soon as the matter becomes ‘storial’ and not mythical, being in fact human literature, the centre of interest must shift to Men (and their relations with Elves or other creatures). We cannot write stories about Elves, whom we do not know inwardly; and if we try we simply turn Elves into men.

** [A note apparently added later:] It was also the Elvish (and uncorrupted Númenórean) view that a ‘good’ Man would or should die voluntarily by surrender with trust before being compelled (as did Aragorn). This may have been the nature of unfallen Man; though compulsion would not threaten him: he would desire and ask to be allowed to ‘go on’ to a higher state. The Assumption of Mary, the only unfallen person, may be regarded as in some ways a simple regaining of unfallen grace and liberty: she asked to be received, and was, having no further function on Earth. Though, of course, even if unfallen she was now ‘pre-Fall’. Her destiny (in which she had cooperated) was far higher than that of any ‘Man’ would have been, had the Fall not occurred. It was also unthinkable that her body, the immediate source of Our Lord’s (withour other physical intermediary) should have been disintegrated, or ‘corrupted’, nor could it surely be long separated from Him after the Ascension. There is of course no suggestion that Mary did not ‘age’ at the normal rate of her race; but certainly this process cannot have proceeded or been allowed to proceed to decrepitude or loss of vitality and comeliness. The Assumption was in any case as distinct from the Ascension as the raising of Lazarus from the (self) Resurrection.

Now, some comments by Christopher Tolkien about the Athrabeth (which he dates to around 1960):

Comments on the Athrabeth by Christopher Tolkien

It seems to me therefore that there are problems in the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth for the interpretation of my father’s thought on these matters; but I am unable to resolve them. It is unfortunate that the questoning with which this slip of paper begins are so elliptically expressed, especially the words ‘Already it is (if inevitably) too like a parody of Christianity’. Obviously, he was not referring to the legen of the Fall: he was saying clearly that the introduction of such a legend would make ‘it’ – altogether into ‘a parody of Christianity.’

Was he referring then to the astonishing conception in the Athrabeth of ‘the Great Hope of Men’, as it is called in the draft A (p.352), ‘the Old Hope’ as it is called in the final text (p.321), that Eru himself will enter into Arda to oppose the evil of Melkor? In the Commentary (p.355) this was further defined: ‘Finrod . . . probably proceeded to the expectation that “the coming of Eru”, if it took place, would be specially and primarily concerned with Men: that is to an imaginative guess or vision that Eru would come incarnated in human form’ – though my father noted that ‘This does not appear in the Athrabeth’. But this surely is not parody, nor even parallel, but the extension – if only represented as vision, hope, or prophecy – of the ‘theology’ of Arda into specifically, and of course centrally, Christian belief; and a manifest challenge to my father’s view in his letter of 1951on the necessary limitations of the expressions of ‘moral and religious truth (or error)’ in a ‘Secondary World’.

I think the letter of 1958 (Letter 212) was written with the Athrabeth in mind, even if it was not already written (and we do not know that for sure). Tolkien was already toying with the idea of bringing the Christian myth into his own myth (I know, I am partial :D). I think that the mention of the “elf-centredness” of the story, especially considering that the person to whom he was writing this letter had not asked about it at all – she was just asking questions of interest for general Tolkien fans, such as what is the meaning of some elvish expressions, or “how could Ar-Pharazôn defeat Sauron when Sauron had the One Ring”, and such -- is telling. I think Tolkien was already shifting his ground to the Andreth position. And this would mean that the Mannish account is correct, and that the Valar were as ignorant as we were about this -- before we read the Athrabeth!

But this is only speculation, of course :D.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Walter

I apologize again for being guilty - in part - of having "kidnapped" this thread with just another - dispensable - "religious" discussion...


Nah, if it is anything, it is my fault. But I think it is pertinent, not really "dispensable". You are only guilty of mixing the two discussions, that's it -- my last post was NOT about Catholicism, it was about Tolkien and his views on Man's nature in his myth. The focal point of this thread, I believe.

I did not quote from letter 211 for the very good reason that I did not read it yesterday :D. I looked for references to mortality by the index. When I found Letter 212 (I began at the end, because I wanted to get an updated view, not one from the 1930's in which Tolkien surely agreed with what you are saying), I was satisfied. And I think that's how it should be, by the way -- you find quotes supporting your position, and I find quotes supporting mine. It is only when we abandon honesty that this system breaks up. I am not convinced of what I am defending (and if I were I would say so -- being honest), and so rest assured that this discussion will be worthwhile. Perhaps we will approach the truth by it.

To the business at hand, then. I don't see how one letter negates the other, by the way... the fact that Letter 212 was written but not sent reinforces the opinion that Tolkien avoided including those ideas in his mythology out of respect for Christianity and personal humility, not because he disagreed with them. Or did he write long drafts for fun? No, the very fact that he wrote a draft and then chose to not send it shows that these ideas were in his mind, but he did not want to divulge them. His reluctance to use the Athrabeth is also indicative of this -- it is clearly a fantastic work, and it remained hidden until after his death. Why? I submit that it was out of respect and personal humility. What do you think?

Your emphasis touches on Tolkien's dislike of Allegory. We have many examples of Tolkien's dislike of Allegory. And how can the Athrabeth be considered an Allegory? As Christopher Tolkien said, it is an extension, only represented as a hope. Tolkien's views on allegory don't have much bearing, I think, on this curious fact, "the dog that did not bark" -- why was the Athrabeth never published or divulged?

I don't want to repeat that Tolkien was Catholic, Walter -- it is you who are repeating that his myth is not Catholic. My last post, the one with the quotes, did not mention Catholicism once. It mentioned "the Christian myth" as shorthand for the Andreth position, of man's innate immortality. Its goal was to point out that perhaps Tolkien was shifting to the Andreth position as true in his myth, i.e., the position that the Valar and Elves were wrong concerning Man's innate nature. Don't use the word "Catholicism" if you don't want to (after all, I didn't), but let's discuss whether this speculation (;)) of mine is correct. I had already dropped the Catholicism discussion, but if you want to drag it out... unless you think that Catholics, being hopelessly biased, can't discuss the subject. :D

[Beleg]

To the Original Questions,


Is this time long enough for the fëa to become tired of life?

No. If such had been the case then none would have been happy and satisfied in Numenor. Did the hroa drag the fëa too long and imprison it in Valinor?


When talking about Numenoreans we have to regard the fact that Numenorean's weren't Normal men. Should I say their fea was tuned in such a way that It would stick to the hror for a longer time.
I don't think hror has the power of dragging the fea and restricting it to Arda. If that hadn't been the case then I don't think most of the Numenorean Kings would have died since they were "assialed by no sickness save death only". Fea has an appointed time to live in Middle-Earth and after as the appointed time runs by the fea becomes restless and if too long a time elapses and the hroa still doesn't want to let go of the fea then the fea automatically leaves the hroa.
Well that's my theory.

Maybe this was the source of the unrest of the Númenóreans, who wanted to live forever. The hroa prevailed over the fëa.

Yes probably. Since the bodily form, the hroa was benifitting and It wasn't in any pain (I think Numeneor was partially marred.) The hroa wanted to enjoy the bodily luxeries but the time of the fea was running out.
The unrest came when their started an subconcious struggle between the two items.
The Numenorean's started clinging onto their life more desperately, perhaps under the infuence of the marred Arda.
The fea as a result was affected by this and was consumed and It's time of departure started coming earlier because of the inevitable effects of the marness of hroa on it. That might account to the shortening of the lives of the Numenoreans.

If this is correct, then wasn’t it wrong to give to the Númenóreans such a long span-life?

Wrong....I personally think that the lives of Men in the start were greater then they became in Beleriand (I am with Andreth here) and It was only the corrupting and marring of Morgoth that decreased the life span of Men.
Once men reached Numeneor, a contrastingly less marred state, the marring lessened and their original life span came back which would be greater then the diminished one they possessed in Beleriand.
I don't say that Vala or Eru (Probably Eru since Vala didn't seem to meddle in the affairs of men too often) didn't have any part in the lengthening of the spans of Numenoreans. It is quite clear they had, But my point is it wasn't the only cause. The lessening of the effect of Morgoth was also a point in it.
I’m not sure if it was an action from the Valar or Eru himself, but if it was the Valar’s choice, maybe they erred at this point and should never give to the mortals such life span that the fëa wasn’t able to endure.

You are supposing that It was only in Numenorean's that the lust of long age creeped in. It was also in the lesser men or the other men, since some of the words of Andreth vieled in her bitterness imply that. I still think that Eru did anything to the hroa of a man, as the Valinor part of you're quote suggests that man's hroa would have able to lived untroubled in Valinor and Arda Unmarred if It had been let so to live. Eru altered the life of the fea, extending it so that It would stay for a longer time.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
[B]Fea has an appointed time to live in Middle-Earth and after as the appointed time runs by the fea becomes restless and if too long a time elapses and the hroa still doesn't want to let go of the fea then the fea automatically leaves the hroa.
Well that's my theory.

Let me see if I understood you correctly Beleg -- do you ascribe a will to the hröa? When you talk about the hröa "letting go of the fëa" it seems like you do. Is that so?

So there is a will, probably an unconscious will, in the body, as you see it -- right?:

Also: you say that the fëa has an appointed time. But then this appointed time was stretched by the Gift of the Valar (or of Eru), since they did not feel tired at the same age (and matured more slowly, too) as normal men. I think the longer time of maturation shows that the change was a very deep change in their nature -- and one that did not happen over generations, but almost instantly after Númenor was raised. We don't see any accounts saying that first-generation Númenóreans were only slightly more longeval than normal men -- that I remember.

You address this matter when you say that:

I don't say that Vala or Eru (Probably Eru since Vala didn't seem to meddle in the affairs of men too often) didn't have any part in the lengthening of the spans of Numenoreans. It is quite clear they had, But my point is it wasn't the only cause. The lessening of the effect of Morgoth was also a point in it.

But then you have a Morgoth with power enough to change the nature of Men, and make this change inheritable -- that's not the Melkor of the Silmarillion, that's the Melkor that Tolkien was devising in the little text Melkor Morgoth in HoME X. It is the Melkor of Andreth, not the Melkor of Finrod. But if you have this Melkor, and agree with Andreth, what is to prevent you from accepting Andreth's lore that men were originally immortal?

It seems you have an intermediate position between the "Elves are right" and the "Andreth is right" dilemma -- is that it?

[gate7ole]

by Beleg_strongbow
I don't think hror has the power of dragging the fea and restricting it to Arda. If that hadn't been the case then I don't think most of the Numenorean Kings would have died since they were "assialed by no sickness save death only". Fea has an appointed time to live in Middle-Earth and after as the appointed time runs by the fea becomes restless and if too long a time elapses and the hroa still doesn't want to let go of the fea then the fea automatically leaves the hroa. Well that's my theory.
I think that the following quote gives us no room for speculation. Tolkien described precisely what would happen to that case (sorry for repeating the quote I posted at the opening of the thread):
Very soon then the fëa and hröa of a Man in Aman would not be united and at peace, but would be opposed, to the great pain of both. The hröa being in full vigour and joy of life would cling to the fëa, lest its departure should bring death; and against death it would revolt as would a great beast in full life either flee from the hunter or turn savagely upon him. But the fëa would be as it were in prison, becoming ever more weary of all the delights of the hröa, until they were loathsome to it, longing ever more and more to be gone, until even those matters for its thought that it received through the hröa and its senses became meaningless. The Man would not be blessed, but accursed; and he would curse the Valar and Aman and all the things of Arda. And he would not willingly leave Aman, for that would mean rapid death, and he would have to be thrust forth with violence. But if he remained in Aman, what should he come to, ere Arda were at last fulfilled and he found release? Either his fëa would be wholly dominated by the hröa, and he would become more like a beast, though one tormented within. Or else, if his fëa were strong, it would leave the hröa, Then one of two things would happen: either this would be accomplished only in hate, by violence, and the hroa, in full life, would be rent and die in sudden agony; or else the fëa would in loathing and without pity desert the hroa, and it would live on, a witless body, not even a beast but a monster, a very work of Melkor in the midst of Aman, which the Valar themselves would fain destroy.
It is beyond doubt that mortal (in the means of mannish) fëa and immortal (or long lasting) hroa could not be co-existent. The case is not whether this would happen. It would sometime, despite the wisdom of the person – although it might come later to the more wise.
The possibility that the Núnemóreans had a “better” fëa, I reject it utterly. It would be unjust for the other offsprings of the though of Eru (Ainur, Elves) that Men would have an improved fëa (not to say for the lesser Men). No, the fëa must be dogmatically considered the same. Combined with the above quote, the Núnemóreans were at the same peril with all men about the disharmony of an immortal body – what changes is probably the time it takes to reach to the comflict.
by Beleg_strongbow
Wrong....I personally think that the lives of Men in the start were greater then they became in Beleriand (I am with Andreth here) and It was only the corrupting and marring of Morgoth that decreased the life span of Men.
Once men reached Numeneor, a contrastingly less marred state, the marring lessened and their original life span came back which would be greater then the diminished one they possessed in Beleriand.
I don't say that Vala or Eru (Probably Eru since Vala didn't seem to meddle in the affairs of men too often) didn't have any part in the lengthening of the spans of Numenoreans. It is quite clear they had, But my point is it wasn't the only cause. The lessening of the effect of Morgoth was also a point in it.
Yes, I agree that the less marred Númenor also played its role in the longer life of the Númenóreans, but (as Eriol said in his post) here we have a multiple lifetime and not just an increase. It was expressedly an action of the Gods (or Eru).

[Beleg]

But then you have a Morgoth with power enough to change the nature of Men, and make this change inheritable -- that's not the Melkor of the Silmarillion, that's the Melkor that Tolkien was devising in the little text Melkor Morgoth in HoME X. But if you have this Melkor, and agree with Andreth, what is to prevent you from accepting Andreth's lore that men were originally immortal?

A passage from the same HOME X, Myths Transformed may be viewed here,

For which reason it is said that whereas there is now great evil in Arda and many things therein are at discord, so that the good of one seemeth to be the hurt of another, nonetheless the foundations of this world are good, and it turns by nature to good, healing itself from within by the power that was set there in its making; and evil in Arda would fail and pass away if it were not renewed from without: that is: that comes from wills and being [sic] that are other than Arda itself.


That means that If Morgoth is not in Arda to control his evil plots then the potency of his works will decrease, meaning they won't remain everlasting and they effects could be undone and diminished to a great extent.


But then you have a Morgoth with power enough to change the nature of Men,

Can you explain this a bit? That's what Andreth more or less claims.

Myths Transformed, HOME X.

The Elves certainly held and taught that fear or 'spirits' may grow of their own life (independently of the body), even as they may be hurt and healed, be diminished and renewed.

The Melkor in HOME X is powerful enough to spread his sead of evil throughout the viens of world due to his power and potency and they would effect every being upon the earth or made up of the earth. But effect doesn't mean they would take total control of it.
My basic theory is this.
Men had quite a long life although they weren't immortal. Both their feär and hröa weren't suppose to be immortal. In the marring of earth and it's creations by Morgoth (Since Morgoth's main purpose would be to inhiliate, that is diminishment and destruction) the lifespan of men lessened.
But once Morgoth was killed and his feär fled, the potency of his works were decreased, correspondingly effecting the level of the marring, abducted by him, upon Middle-Earth and it's beings.
So It can be said that the evil of Morgoth to an extent would be undone and the hurt produced by Morgoth's evilness healed by the blessing of the good elements.
Things would revert back as much as they can to the original, which would mean that the lifespan of men would increase to some extent but won't be the same as It was originally held to be in the thought of Eru. (Due to the marring of Morgoth).
My side theory is this one,

Men had a long life although they weren't immortal. Due to the magnitude of the marring of Middle-Earth by Morgoth, the lifespan of Men became diminished.
But when these men were transmitted to a compartively less marred region, the effect of the marring decreased and the situation partially reverted back to the original. Yet, this partial undoing of Morgoth's evil wasn't great enough to warrant men the lifespan of 200 or so years.
Thus Eru, as a reward for Men's help in their part in the undertaking of the great plan (as hinted in Myths Transformed. The same plan in which Noldor were a perfect element to keep Morgoth busy and in which actually everything happened on the precise time; when it aught to be.) increases their lifespan; that is increases feä's endurance to remain with the hröa (Hröa we known under perfect condition is liable to remain healthy for ever as shown by this Quote provided by Gate7ole from Volume X.
The hröa being in full vigour and joy of life would cling to the fëa,
Shows to us that If perfect blooming conditions are provided to the hröa, then It is not difficult to preserve it, although same can't be said about the fëa. [But that can be interpreted through the notion that since the hröa is made of material of arda, It has the ability to live and endure in it for ages uncountered. But since the Feär is not made of material of Arda {In Men's case}It cannot be contained within Arda.])

But in both cases recovery from the marring of Morgoth plays a part in the longevity of Human lifespans.
I know that both theories have more holes in them Boromir's undershirt (Quoth Turgon) but that's the best I can offer right now.

I agree Eriol that you conclusion about Andreth's claim being ture seems probable to some extent. But as Myths Transformed and the Quote given by me points out, Morgoth cannot wholly corrupt anything, sure he can pevert everything, but to a certain extent, unlike Sauron his power is not centered anywhere, but is present allround, though in less magnitude and potency. Thence It comes to say that Morgoth might have effect Human lifespan but he cannot have changed the whole fate of Mankind.

I also find another problem with this Immortal man theory,

It has been explictly stated that Men were not allowed to come to Valinor. For what? Gate's original quote I guess answeres to that partially. But my question is If Men were doomed to be immortal from the start, then why were they not allowed to entre Beleriand for the fear that a quarell may arise between their Feär and Hröa. It cannot have been because of the marring of Men since Elves were also marred and yet they sustained in Aman, besides best healing could be found in Aman and feär were designed in such a way that they can take up healing and be healed if the healing is provided...
Sounds to me that men were never supposed to be immortal though they were longlicing then they slowly became.

Originally posted by Eriol,

do you ascribe a will to the hröa? When you talk about the hröa "letting go of the fëa" it seems like you do. Is that so?

Perhaps you are taking it too literary here. If I find joy and happiness somewhere I would be greatly reluctent to leave that place. Such can be applied to Hröa too.

Posted by Eriol,

I think the longer time of maturation shows that the change was a very deep change in their nature -- and one that did not happen over generations, but almost instantly after Númenor was raised. We don't see any accounts saying that first-generation Númenóreans were only slightly more longeval than normal men -- that I remember.

I don't think any part of my posts negates any of you're points. Although I don't understand what deep change are you talking about? The deepest change a body can suffer is the alteration of it's soul, it's innermost object.

My ulitmate conclusion is that Andreth was in part correct, yet even the heart of Anderth the wise woman was clouded with Morgothian doubt. Part of her claim, I feel, was in envy of the longevity of life that was granted to the Quendi and she [though unconciously] lusted for it.

[gate7ole]

I don't agree with the theory of Andreth, but for the sake of the discussion, I will take her side for a while:
by Beleg_strongbow
It has been explictly stated that Men were not allowed to come to Valinor. For what? Gate's original quote I guess answeres to that partially. But my question is If Men were doomed to be immortal from the start, then why were they not allowed to entre Beleriand for the fear that a quarell may arise between their Feär and Hröa. It cannot have been because of the marring of Men since Elves were also marred and yet they sustained in Aman, besides best healing could be found in Aman and feär were designed in such a way that they can take up healing and be healed if the healing is provided...
Sounds to me that men were never supposed to be immortal though they were longlicing then they slowly became.
Andreth would answer like this: But if we were once immortal but Melkor (or Eru) deprived us of this gift, then maybe the preocedure is one-way and we cannot become immortal again. And since Aman would remind us of our past, the Valar wouldn't let us dwell there.

Now, I don't agree with the Immortal Man theory and the only reason I have against it, is what Finrod states. The difference of the human fea, which cannot stay forever in Arda.

by Beleg_strongbow
So It can be said that the evil of Morgoth to an extent would be undone and the hurt produced by Morgoth's evilness healed by the blessing of the good elements.
Things would revert back as much as they can to the original, which would mean that the lifespan of men would increase to some extent but won't be the same as It was originally held to be in the thought of Eru. (Due to the marring of Morgoth).
Morgoth's power was spread, rooted in the grounds of Middle Earh (and not only Beleriand). The fact that actually Morgoth "died", that it was possible for the Valar to defeat him, is due to this spreading of his power. The Valar did not actually kill Morgoth. They killed the -somehow incarnate- body of Morgoth, while his spread power, they couldn't touch without breaking the roots of the world. See what happened in Beleriand. It would happen to all Middle-Earth.
Of course I agree that the Marring of Morgoth was a little sustained, because of the loss of the power that drove all evil to work under one plan.
But the issue is that -as you accept- it was mostly due to the Valar that the Numenoreans got a longer life-span. And until know I am not convinced that it was not a wrong decision :D.

[Eriol]

Go Andreth!

;)

There are two hypotheses to explain the "lack of fit" between Andreth's theory and reality:

1) Gate7ole: The ill wrought by Morgoth (or Eru) in Men was irreversible;

2) Beleg: Andreth was wrong, men were not originally immortal

My explanation is a third one: Andreth was right, and the Valar were wrong. They were mistaken in taking Men as innately mortal creatures. And from this mistake of the Valar stems all of their other mistakes.

What did the Valar know about Men? What Eru told them, and what little they saw in the music. But we know that they could not see much about Men in the music. And Eru said that he would give Men "a new gift" (or something like that). The Valar (and the Elves) assumed that this gift was Death. What if it wasn't? What if it was "freedom from fate" (what I call the "Lhunitihiliel theory ;) ), or the Dominion of Men, or some other thing?

(Woohoo, speculating is so fun...)

Note also that Eru said that he would give a new gift. Even if he meant death, this does not mean that men are innately mortal. For Eru could have devised this gift as a way of amending Morgoth's evil. Perhaps men were made of such stuff that if they remained immortal they would become fiends after Morgoth messed with them. The gift then would be the way to restore sanity and equity to mankind.

For it is clear that Morgoth messed with men in some way, and that this messing is inheritable in Tolkien's later conceptions.

The funny thing is that the only reason we have for disagreeing with Andreth is what we know from Elves, and that came from the Valar. If the Valar are mistaken about men, anything we read about men can be mistaken as well -- including our information about feär and hröar.

This theory (big mistake of the Valar, from the beginning) also helps us to understand why the Valar were so... wary of dealing with men. They did not have any confidence in doing the right thing with them, they were very much aware that there was a lot that they did not know about men.

Leaving speculation aside, let us summarize our theories so far:

Beleg -- Men were originally long-lived, had a decrease in lifespan due to Morgoth's marring, and later this decrease was attenuated in Númenór because of Eru/Valar intervention or the "cleanliness" of the land, being less marred than M-E; Andreth was wrong.

Gate7ole -- Men were originally short-lived, had an increase in lifespan due to Valar/Eru intervention (this is also the "Standard Silmarillion" theory); Andreth was wrong.

Eriol -- Men were originally immortal, and became mortal as an effect of Morgoth's actions (which does not mean that Morgoth was the primary cause behind that -- perhaps Eru did it, and perhaps He did it out of kindness and wisdom. We don't know about that.) Their lifespans were then increased in Númenór due to Valar/Eru intervention; Andreth was right

(Sorry if I forgot about the theories of earlier posters -- everybody is free to add to this summary)

Coming back to the question of the thread, what is the effect of the "Valar/Eru" intervention as a factor in the Second Fall?

In the "Beleg" scenario, being a "restoration" of the natural state, it is not to be blamed; the Second Fall was not directly caused by it, but rather by other factors, such as a modification in the hröar. But I have not seen any indication by Beleg that he considers this V/E intervention a mistake.

In the "gate7ole" scenario, it is a mistake, and an avoidable one -- they had all the information necessary to predict the end result. They knew all about the fëa clinging to the hröa, and how it would result in evil.

In the "Eriol" scenario, it is a mistake, but an inadvertent mistake -- they did not know the facts. They thought that men were innately mortal, and their fëar would be pleased to leave the body if they had a blessed land to live in, without the Shadow of Morgoth. But the fëa was actually designed to remain in Arda, deathless, and therefore whatever the Valar did the Second Fall was bound to happen, as long as men were immortal creatures trapped in mortal bodies. The Valar simply provided the methods and the power for them to "fall" more quickly. Men were prone to research cryogenics if the Valar did not give them a helping hand with military power.

;)

[Beleg]

[For the sake of it I have decided to be Felagund] ;)

gate7ole posted,

Andreth would answer like this: But if we were once immortal but Melkor (or Eru) deprived us of this gift, then maybe the preocedure is one-way and we cannot become immortal again. And since Aman would remind us of our past, the Valar wouldn't let us dwell there.

Felagund: Eru would never deprive you of any gift If he once installed it in you.
Melkor is a mighty being but Melkor cannot completely change the fate of any child of Eru. He can corrupt but not on such a large scale.
How would Aman remind you of your past? Men are pretty different from the elves both physically and mentally. Their physique and mental abilities weren't made for someone whose goal is to live an immortal life.
Besides Man's fea wasn't made to dwell in Arda that long.


Posted by gate7ole,

Morgoth's power was spread, rooted in the grounds of Middle Earh (and not only Beleriand). The fact that actually Morgoth "died", that it was possible for the Valar to defeat him, is due to this spreading of his power.

True. Morgoth used a lot of his power to corrupt Arda, which took away lot of his physical and spirtual power. (As MT tells us).


But the issue is that -as you accept- it was mostly due to the Valar that the Numenoreans got a longer life-span. And until know I am not convinced that it was not a wrong decision .

So our basic problem is that you believe giving Numenor wasn't a good idea, while I believe It was a good idea?

[Beleg]

Andreth was right, and the Valar were wrong. They were mistaken in taking Men as innately mortal creatures. And from this mistake of the Valar stems all of their other mistakes.

I don't think so. :) Valar were supposed to have direct assistance from Eru in this matter and it was Eru who explictly forbade Men's enterance to Valinor. In you theory there is no participation of marring of Morgoth, which again is impossible, since Morgoth polluted whole of the Arda, so much so that It became Morgoth's Ring.
[Suppose leaving aside the matter of Morgoth's corruption] If we look at the Physique and Mental Structure of the Men, It shows that they weren't made as immortal.
Men had a weaker fea, Men faced illness, which was often deadly.
Men had a mind which could easily be corrupted or peverted.
Old age came upon men...and they died from it. What did the Valar know about Men? What Eru told them, and what little they saw in the music. But we know that they could not see much about Men in the music. And Eru said that he would give Men "a new gift" (or something like that). The Valar (and the Elves) assumed that this gift was Death. What if it wasn't? What if it was "freedom from fate" (what I call the "Lhunitihiliel theory ), or the Dominion of Men, or some other thing?

They didn't assume It was death. It was a fact that It was death.
If we compare Elves and Men, Death is the only [Seemingly good to Elves] quality that is existant in Men.
Elves get weary of Middle-Earth, yet they are bound within it.
Some people might envy it in the start, but as the Elves proved It, After a long while It get boring living immortally. Note also that Eru said that he would give a new gift. Even if he meant death, this does not mean that men are innately mortal. For Eru could have devised this gift as a way of amending Morgoth's evil.
I dont understand this point.

For it is clear that Morgoth messed with men in some way, and that this messing is inheritable in Tolkien's later conceptions.

This thing is not found in you're theory.

[Eriol]

My theory is mostly Andreth's theory -- and in that theory Morgoth's marring is by far the greatest.

:confused:

In Andreth's theory, immortal men became mortal due to Morgoth's corruption. What else could you ask as for marring?

:)

Did Eru specifically forbid men in Valinor? I don't remember that.

And, of course, when you "look at men's fëar and hröar and see that they are weaker", you are looking at men already corrupted by Morgoth... the Andreth theory claims that in the beginning, before Morgoth messed with them, they were immortal, with strong fëar and hröar. A beginning that no Valar witnessed or heard about (except Morgoth).

By the same token, when you say that death is the only thing good in men, it is evidence of the depth of Morgoth's marring.

I'm not saying that death is the result of Morgoth's marring, mind you; it is quite likely that Eru instituted death for the sake of men, because marred as they were, their immortality became a curse. In that scenario immortal men would inevitably turn wicked due to Morgoth's marring, and death is the medicine against that. (I think this is the point that I did not clarify enough in my post).

It is possible. As it is possible that death is in fact a direct result of Morgoth's actions. I don't know.

But in the Andreth Is Right scenario, the corruption of Morgoth is the greatest, compared to the other scenarios. For it resulted in the innate corruption of men, and in death, either directly or indirectly.

[Beleg]

Ah, pardon me for mistaking the sense of your'e words. :)

But for once, I dont agree with Andreth's theory.

it is quite likely that Eru instituted death for the sake of men, because marred as they were, their immortality became a curse.

But If Eru had the power of Installing death as the fate of men, why didn't He undo the marring of Morgoth? That seems unprobable and unfair to me.




Did Eru specifically forbid men in Valinor? I don't remember that.


There is a quote in Myths Transformed, but right now I am unable to present it.


But in the Andreth Is Right scenario, the corruption of Morgoth is the greatest, compared to the other scenarios. For it resulted in the innate corruption of men, and in death, either directly or indirectly.

But I guess Andreth is talking about the Morgoth of HOME X, not the other Morgoth.

[As a personal opinion I don't like the changes that Tolkien invented in the Mythology]

In Andreth's theory, immortal men became mortal due to Morgoth's corruption. What else could you ask as for marring?

Andreth basically says that Morgoth tempered with the Fea's of Men...and actually created a stero-type of actual men...
Does this mean that the later mythology Morgoth possesses Flame Imperishble???

:confused:

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow

But If Eru had the power of Installing death as the fate of men, why didn't He undo the marring of Morgoth? That seems unprobable and unfair to me.


Because undoing the marring would have meant a violation of men's free will. They chose Morgoth freely. Eru would accept repentance, he would not force it.

I didn't get the bit about the Flame Imperishable... Morgoth never created a race of beings with free-will, and the men he corrupted already had the Flame Imperishable from Eru.

[Beleg]

Because undoing the marring would have meant a violation of men's free will. They chose Morgoth freely. Eru would accept repentance, he would not force it.

No It wouldn't.
Men didn't choose Morgoth freely. [Not in the sense we are talking about here] Infact If Andreth theory Is correct then Men were given no choice in the marring of their souls.



I didn't get the bit about the Flame Imperishable... Morgoth never created a race of beings with free-will, and the men he corrupted already had the Flame Imperishable from Eru.

If Morgoth indeed could alter the fea of men, then I would say that he created a new breed of man.
Afterall Mortal elves would be totall different from immortal elves.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
No It wouldn't.
Men didn't choose Morgoth freely. [Not in the sense we are talking about here] Infact If Andreth theory Is correct then Men were given no choice in the marring of their souls. [/B]

?

Why not? What is the sense in which we are talking about here? To me it seemed a choice quite free. They worshipped Morgoth in exchange for the power that Morgoth could give to them.

And as for the Flame Imperishable, you could say it was a new breed of man, but that does not make it so :D. I don't think it can be agreed... they were still men, still capable of good, they still had free-will... they only had a marred fëa and hröa.

[Beleg]

?

Why not? What is the sense in which we are talking about here? To me it seemed a choice quite free. They worshipped Morgoth in exchange for the power that Morgoth could give to them.

Apparantly you said this,

it is quite likely that Eru instituted death for the sake of men, because marred as they were, their immortality became a curse.

And I replied,

But If Eru had the power of Installing death as the fate of men, why didn't He undo the marring of Morgoth? That seems unprobable and unfair to me.

You countered,

Because undoing the marring would have meant a violation of men's free will. They chose Morgoth freely. Eru would accept repentance, he would not force it.

My reply,

No It wouldn't.
Men didn't choose Morgoth freely. [Not in the sense we are talking about here] Infact If Andreth theory Is correct then Men were given no choice in the marring of their souls.

Instigated this,

Why not? What is the sense in which we are talking about here? To me it seemed a choice quite free. They worshipped Morgoth in exchange for the power that Morgoth could give to them.

In the whole scenario I can't see a place where Men submitted to Morgoth's will.
He we are talking about Morgoth marring the men, (according to the claim of Andreth) and I doubt that Men's submission to Morgoth had anything to do with their marring, since whole Arda (except Aman) was Morgoth's ring and everyone on it would ineveitably be effect by Morgoth's evil that ran in the very veins of Arda.


And as for the Flame Imperishable.
I still think if Andreth Is taken to be correct, then the men created are different from the men created at the start.
The original men would be more like Elves yet we see that the Men of Andreth time little resemble Elves, [Except incase sometimes of Physical power].
It would mean that Morgoth has created another breed of men.

[Eriol]

I understand now what you've said. But I think that their acceptance of Morgoth is what spurred the corruption of their fëar and hröar. Didn't Eru say something to that effect as the Voice? That since they accepted Morgoth they would soon die and come back to Him, Eru? As if their deaths is a consquence of their worship...

In my scenario, if men had not accepted Morgoth they would remain immortal; marred, as everything in Arda, but immortal. But once they accepted and worshipped him, they fell much more (not liable to be compared with Elves, since Elves never worshipped Morgoth).

Picture, say, the Mouth of Sauron; that's what was in the future of Men without death to cut them short. And death is thus a very great gift of Eru, a way for them to get away from their enslaver, Morgoth. Eru could not really "unenslave" them without breaking their free will. Men could repent and turn to Eru, but their fëar were already marred, as a result of men's free choices.

[Malbeth]

One thing I don't understand about Andreth's (and Eriol's) theory is what exactly was the difference between men and elves before men fell?

If men were immortal, then they're bound to the circles of the world too, aren't they? Unless you suppose something like a bodily assumption to the Halls of Eru would happen to men eventually...

[Beleg]

In my scenario, if men had not accepted Morgoth they would remain immortal; marred, as everything in Arda, but immortal. But once they accepted and worshipped him, they fell much more (not liable to be compared with Elves, since Elves never worshipped Morgoth).

So In your scenario the men of the Three houses of Edain had also accepted and worshiped Morgoth?

But I think that their acceptance of Morgoth is what spurred the corruption of their fëar and hröar. Didn't Eru say something to that effect as the Voice? That since they accepted Morgoth they would soon die and come back to Him, Eru? As if their deaths is a consquence of their worship...

Morgoth's power wasn't centrecized. It was found in equal propotion in every partical. I am not sure the acceptance of Morgoth as lord would have spurred the marring of their souls.
In which book is the Quote you are refering to?

Picture, say, the Mouth of Sauron; that's what was in the future of Men without death to cut them short. And death is thus a very great gift of Eru, a way for them to get away from their enslaver, Morgoth. Eru could not really "unenslave" them without breaking their free will. Men could repent and turn to Eru, but their fëar were already marred, as a result of men's free choices.

Sauron is different from Morgoth. Besides Sauron is a Necromencer. He has control over spirits and with his arts Might be able to give them a bodily form.
And In the case of Mouth of Sauron, he has by his own freewill acepted the virtual slavery of Sauron; but in the case of the whole race of Men in general It cannot apply as so.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
So In your scenario the men of the Three houses of Edain had also accepted and worshiped Morgoth?

No, but they were the descendants of people who did; and that resulted in an inheritable marring of the fëa.

The quote about the Voice is from the Athrabeth; I may be wrong, I have read it only once.

And as for the difference between immortal men and elves -- I have no idea.

:D

[HelplessModAddi]

Men are driven. We search, we invent, we grow, we demand, we challenge, we push and push and push till our arms break. In the Finrod and Andreth debate Finrod says that the Eldar observe that when Men love something, it seems to be because it reminds them of something else. Men search always, constantly, trying to find this something else.

My idea is this: that "something else" we are always searching for is Arda Unmarred, the true and natural state of everything we observe, had Melkor not infested the world. We die because, our bodies being fed by the marred Earth, we percieve our bodies themselves as being "marred." But the flaw is this: we don't know where to look for the answer. Arda is our home, but our home is different, therefore we do not accept it. For this I believe is Melkor's "darkness" upon the hearts of men: that we fear and cannot accept what we do not understand and thus cannot control. We don't understand the marring. We don't understand why things aren't the way they should be. Therefore we fear and reject them, even our own bodies, where, if Melkor had not cast his shadow upon us, we would have cared for them and tried to remedy them from within. In this sense, the "gift of men," if it is what I stated at the beginning, would be the source of death, but not death in and of itself. The Valar would be partly correct and partly mistaken: this world isn't our home, but it should be.

[Eriol]

I think I agree. And what about men's lifespans? Were they immortal, long-lived, or just had ordinary lifespans before Morgoth messed with them?

[Inderjit S]

As Andreth in theAthrabeth Finrod ah Andreth states, It was the belief of Men that they were 'immortal' before their corruption by Melkor. Though the Valar evidently know about mortal Men-it was in their nature, so each contradict another, and since men are more likely to err, I belive that it is a misconception on their part, rather then the Valar being 'wrong'.

BUT, I think this was the scenario. Men could CHOOSE when to go to Eru and leave the circles of the world-they COULD be immortal or have a longeveal life but it was in their nature to leave Arda. Eru then cut their life-span short, so they could go to him and confess who the real good god was. But the essence of this was seen in the Numenoreans-they lived very long lives and for a long time could choose when they died, until they squandered this. Remeber the Eldar themselves aren't immortal, Arda wasn't immortal, and they lived as long as Arda lasted, I think it is as Finrod asserts-they live until Arda expires. Thus we can see that Men had the true 'gift' in their oft-misunderstood and squandered ability to leave Arda when they chose-the Eldar had no such power.

We don't know whether or not men were immortal at the time. Andreth says no one had yet died.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Inderjit S
As Andreth in theAthrabeth Finrod ah Andreth states, It was the belief of Men that they were 'immortal' before their corruption by Melkor. Though the Valar evidently know about mortal Men-it was in their nature, so each contradict another, and since men are more likely to err, I belive that it is a misconception on their part, rather then the Valar being 'wrong'.

BUT, I think this was the scenario. Men could CHOOSE when to go to Eru and leave the circles of the world-they COULD be immortal or have a longeveal life but it was in their nature to leave Arda. Eru then cut their life-span short, so they could go to him and confess who the real good god was. But the essence of this was seen in the Numenoreans-they lived very long lives and for a long time could choose when they died, until they squandered this. Remeber the Eldar themselves aren't immortal, Arda wasn't immortal, and they lived as long as Arda lasted, I think it is as Finrod asserts-they live until Arda expires. Thus we can see that Men had the true 'gift' in their oft-misunderstood and squandered ability to leave Arda when they chose-the Eldar had no such power.

We don't know whether or not men were immortal at the time. Andreth says no one had yet died.

I don't see much of a difference between immortality and unlimited lifespan; if men could live as long as they wanted to, they were in effect immortals. If they were "super-numenoreans" in the beginning, why not later? What prevented the Valar from granting the same benefits to the Numenóreans?

If the effect of Morgoth's actions was merely psychological, turning the perception of death (and not death itself) from a gift into a curse (as the Valar taught); and if men were innately immortal (or voluntarily mortal, which, as I said, I think is the same thing); then why could not the Valar dispel the psychological effects of Morgoth's marring? Perhaps a self-esteem course :D.

Seriously, I think that if we assume that men were immortal at the beginning, or that they could choose the time of their deaths AND had no "maximum limit" for that, then we must conclude that Morgoth's messing was much more serious than what we see in the Published Silmarillion; that Andreth was right in that he could taint a whole race.

And this in itself undermines the claims to the Valar's authority on that matter. For they taught Finrod; and Finrod could not believe that Morgoth could do such a thing. And yet Morgoth did such a thing, as seen from the fact that the Valar could not undo it by teaching. (Assuming men were "immortal" in your sense, Inderjit, at the beginning).

I think we are forced to conclude that there is much that the Valar don't know about Morgoth -- or Men -- if we accept the "primitive immortality" of men.

Of course, there is no way to solve the contradiction between Andreth and the Valar within the legendarium; for the legendarium was written by elves and elves' pupils, and these elves were the pupils of the Valar. So we have no "outside" standard to check Andreth's claims -- all that we can find in Tolkien's works, with the exception of the Letters, is written from "the Valar viewpoint".

[Maerbenn]

Originally posted by Malbeth
One thing I don't understand about Andreth's (and Eriol's) theory is what exactly was the difference between men and elves before men fell?I suppose the main difference between them is what happens to their fëar when they die.
Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
Morgoth's power wasn't centrecized. It was found in equal propotion in every partical. From Myths Transformed: Morgoth's power was disseminated throughout Gold, if nowhere absolute (for he did not create Gold) it was nowhere absent. (It was this Morgoth-element in matter, indeed, which was a prerequisite for such 'magic' and other evils as Sauron practised with it and upon it.)
It is quite possible, of course, that certain 'elements' or conditions of matter had attracted Morgoth's special attention (mainly, unless in the remote past, for reasons of his own plans). For example, all gold (in Middle-earth) seems to have had a specially 'evil' trend - but not silver. Water is represented as being almost entirely free of Morgoth. (This, of course, does not mean that any particular sea, stream, river, well, or even vessel of water could not be poisoned or defiled - as all things could.)
Originally posted by Eriol
Seriously, I think that if we assume that men were immortal at the beginning, or that they could choose the time of their deaths AND had no "maximum limit" for that, then we must conclude that Morgoth's messing was much more serious than what we see in the Published Silmarillion; that Andreth was right in that he could taint a whole race. He was by far the most powerful being in Eä after all.

[Inderjit S]

I don't see much of a difference between immortality and unlimited lifespan; if men could live as long as they wanted to, they were in effect immortals

But want is Men's great downfall. Sure they had the power to live forever (maybe, or certainly a fairly long time, there was no way of knowing if they were immortal or not, they were a pretty young race when they fell under Melkor's dominion) but what would have happened if they had attempted to go against their nature? What would happen to anything that goes against it's true nature? Look at the Mouth of Sauron or the nazgul-they became horrible wraith or monster like creatures. Or a even better example is that of Tar-Atanamir, the 13th King of Numenor and grand-son of Tar-Minastir, who helped Gil-Galad when Sauron invaded Eriador.

Atanmir is also called the unwilling, for he was the first of the kings, to refuse to lay down his life, or to renounce the sceptre; and he lived until death took him peforce in dotage Line of Elros; Unfinished Tales

Tar-Atanamir To him came messages from the Valar which he rejected. He clung to life for a extra 50 years History of Akkalabeth; HoME 12

So we can see that Atanamir's clinging to life reduced him to dotage and he died eventually anyway. It was a misuse of Eru's gift.

Yet Laws and Customs explains to us that the Mannish hroa and fea was not powerful enough to sustain immortality-but this could be exaplained as the Elves had no record of Men until after their corruption by Melkor.

What prevented the Valar from granting the same benefits to the Numenóreans

Eru is the only one who could alter the nature of the children. Remeber it was Eru NOT Melkor who altered their nature-Melkor simply was the cause for Eru's anger and hence his altering of their true nature.

then why could not the Valar dispel the psychological effects of Morgoth's marring

They tried to. Remeber the Elven messenger from Valinor to Numenor? And what happened? Men simply rejected them.

that Andreth was right in that he could taint a whole race

Myths Transformed tells us how he tainted all of Arda-even the Elves who were born in M-E took that taint to Aman, hence Miriel's death-a result of the marring. It was possible for him to taint a race that lived in lands that were marred due to him.

[Eriol]

Let's take the first generation of men. If they want to be immortal, why would that be going against their nature? If they can be immortal, the want is not unnatural. If a bird can fly, the wish to fly is not unnatural. It is only if we assume (with the Elves) that men were innately mortal that we can say that this is an unnatural want.

Mouth of Sauron and Tar-Atanamir are fallen men; their wish is unnatural, as in "against nature". The nature of men at that moment is to die; but if that was NOT their nature in the beginning, then the will to avoid death was also NOT unnatural.

Our take on this depends on whether we take that first generation to be immortal or not (and "voluntary mortality" is immortality, or at least I still think it is... :o ).

First scenario: men were not immortal (Finrod)

Then, no change in their natures happened after Morgoth met them; Morgoth only changed their perception of death, and this is more than anything a psychological trick; sure, it is a very ingrained trick, since the Valar could not take it out, but it is still psychological.

In that scenario, the lengthening of the Numenórean lifespan is a bit hard to explain; for the Valar were aware that Men were "strange", and there is no reason to make them longeval in addition to giving them lore and land. Perhaps it is an unforeseen side effect of the proximity to Aman; we must remember that all Numenóreans got this, not only the line of Elros (who had elven and maia blood to account for it). In any effect, this scenario concludes that the Valar were wrong in granting this to them; or that they were unlucky in that their gifts to them resulted in a longer lifespan. For a longer lifespan is neither deserved nor expected in this scenario -- men were always mortal, and they would not expect to become less mortal after the fights against Morgoth. The Edain were not stupid, and they were not dreamers; they were proud to be men.

The Valar should instead have taught them about Morgoth's tricks, dispelling his deception; after all, they could consult with Finrod to get details of that ;). But they never attempted to do so; they simply instituted a ban, and said -- "be merry". (The Elves instructed the Dúnedain, not the Valar). If Aulë and Ulmo had spent some time in Númenór teaching them, I guess this would be enough. (I know Manwë, the sluggard, does not leave Aman... :D).

Eru did not take part in anything, in this scenario, related to the nature of men. It remained the same from the beginning.

Second scenario: men were immortal

This means that something made them mortal; and I don't think it was Eru, Inderjit, at least not clearly. I think Morgoth could have done it. The Voice says that "they will die", not that "I will kill you". But this is a side matter, because even if Eru was behind the change, in this scenario Morgoth is much more powerful, for his marring is much more deeper - so much deeper that Eru has to institute death to remedy it, to prevent the "Mouth of Sauron" effect. His marring is one that passes, by heredity, to all children of men (in the previous scenario it was psychological, i.e., cultural -- not inherited, but rather learned). This marring either resulted in mortality, or it was so deep and harmful that it resulted in Eru's institution of mortality. Also in this scenario the guilt of men is much greater -- while before they were mostly deceived by fear of a real mortality, now they embrace Morgoth freely even though they have no mysterious thing (death) to force them into his arms.

Here the Numenórean lifespan is a terrible blunder, for the Valar were actually delaying Eru's medicine! Fallen men were much more "fallen" in this scenario; bliss and goodness were simply stimulants to restlessness and, in the end, evil; Eru knew it and shortened their lifespans for that reason (or He allowed Morgoth to do it); and the Valar enter the story to increase their lengths. Big blunder. And no amount of teaching could have helped; the problem in this scenario is not psychological, it is not that they were fooled by Morgoth -- it is that they are CHANGED. No Valar could "unchange" them.

Behind all this is Morgoth's marring of all matter in Arda, of course; but this is something that he did before any of the Children arose, and surely could not have such grievous effects on men while leaving elves relatively free. No, I think the "diffuse marring" is not enough to explain man's mortality; Morgoth either messed deeply with their nature, or prompted Eru to do so (Andreth); or perhaps he did not mess at all with their nature, but only fooled them (Finrod). The "diffuse marring" is the background for this, but it is not of much importance, or so I think.

[Inderjit S]

Let's take the first generation of men. If they want to be immortal, why would that be going against their nature

But immortality wasn't an issue with first-gen men. (Has a nice ring to it yes?) since they hadn't yet experienced death itself how could death be a issue or mortality itself.

Look at this note by Tolkien to the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth

The Elves believe that all men died (a fact confirmed by Men). They therefore deduced that this was 'natural' to Men (was by the design of Eru) and supposed that the brevity of human life was due to this character of the human fea; that it was not designed to stay long in Arda.

Of course, this is a Elvish stipulation it is their thoughts, and since Elves are not infallible, and seemingly Men are in a better position to judge their own natures it is difficult to choose which one is 'right'. But this Elven belief was not a idea given to them by the Valar they construed this themselves after they had met Men, and quizzed them on their nature and seen it themselves. Men are in effect 'guests'.

This Elven stipulation is epitomised by Finrod's words to Andreth. Finrod was the 'wisest of the exiles'. And a great lover of men. He would not make rash assumptions. Andreth herself says;


'You speak strange words Finrod' said Andreth 'which I have not heard before. Yet my heart is stirred as if by some truth that it recognises even if it does not understand it'

The nature of men at that moment is to die; but if that was NOT their nature in the beginning, then the will to avoid death was also NOT unnatural.

But their will at the beginning had nothing to do with death, since they didn't know what it was. They fell because of their eagerness and curiosity, plus their reverence for Melkor and their fickle nature.

Some say the Disaster happened at the beginning of the history of our people, before any had yet died

Then our terror of the Dark was increased; for we believed at the Voice was of the Darkness behind the stars. And some of us began to die in horror and anguish, fearing to go out into the Dark. Then we called on our Master to save us from death, and he did not answer. But when we went to the House and all bowed down there, at last he came, great and majestic, but his face was cruel and proud.
Thereafter we were grievously afflicted, by weariness, and hunger, and sickness; and the Earth and all things in it were turned against us. Fire and Water rebelled against us. The birds and beasts shunned us, or if they were strong they assailed us. Plants gave us poison; and we feared the shadows under trees

But they never attempted to do so; they simply instituted a ban, and said -- "be merry

They received instruction from Eonwe, after the World Of Wrath. I think it may be as Finrod says, maybe men are too powerful for the Valar to deal with. I think the Valar consulted Eru before the giving of the gift, since the Valar could not alter men's nature.

This means that something made them mortal; and I don't think it was Eru, Inderjit, at least not clearly. I think Morgoth could have done it

No.

The Valar were not only by Eru forbidden the attempt, they could not alter the nature, or 'doom' of Eru, of any of the Children, in which was included the speed of their growth (relative to the whole life of Arda) and the length of their life-span. Even the Eldar in that respect remained unchanged. Myths Transformed; HoME 10

Only Eru-the creator could alter their nature-no one else, not Melkor, not Manwe, or anyone else.

Plus Eru TOLD them that they would come to him sooner-thus they would see who lied.


Here the Numenórean lifespan is a terrible blunder, for the Valar were actually delaying Eru's medicine

They simply gave men to 'gift' or it seems to them of longer life. But surely, since none but Eru could have sanctioned it, then Eru knew and approved and allowed for the transformation to take place, he didn't know Men would misuse it, it is apparent that although he is seen as a all-seeing and infallible power he cannot know ALL that will take place-the free-will of Men and others decides their own fate. Eru only cut their life-span short so they say who was telling the truth, by now the wise Atani would know who it was, Eru, they, for a while worshipped him and set up a temple of sort in Meneltarma, the whole point of Eru reducing their life-span, to 'choose' the right person to worship was void, the Atani were good men, they weren't as fickle as the first-gen men, they learnt from their mistakes. Or so it seems-at the start. Eventually they too squandered their git. (For Eriol's benefit, hope your not as confused as previously.;) )

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Inderjit S
But immortality wasn't an issue with first-gen men. (Has a nice ring to it yes?) since they hadn't yet experienced death itself how could death be a issue or mortality itself.

Not as nice a note as the mysterious ending of your post...

:D



Look at this note by Tolkien to the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth

I never thought of it by that angle. Eru only told the Valar that he would give "a new gift" to the Atani; were the Valar ignorant of death? I dimly recall (no books here) that the reason for Manwë's withholding of the news that Men were coming from the Elves was a concern about their mortality, which would nullify that speculation of mine (that Valar had no idea of what was death until they met Eärendil, in a gross exaggeration; or at least, not before the Sun had risen).

Your quotes highlight a different aspect of it, the "revolt of Nature against men"; the birds and beasts shunned them, plants gave poison, etc. Note that death came before this happened, in Andreth's story. It seems that this happened only after they freely bowed to Morgoth, in a complete act of submission.

I'm not quite sure what that means :).

Perhaps it means that death is natural in men; I'll have to re-read the Athrabeth to check on that (immortality is such a cute theory... a pity to discard it). Perhaps it means that Eru's intervention was "preventive", made before Morgoth's messing was complete; but I think (personally) that this would be a stretch of the theory. Perhaps it means that death was a result of the refusal of the Voice, of Eru; I am rather atttracted to that. The "bad effects" would only settle in after they worship Morgoth completely, but death is instantaneous, either by Eru or by Morgoth (for I'm not convinced that Morgoth could not do it -- see below).

But their will at the beginning had nothing to do with death, since they didn't know what it was. They fell because of their eagerness and curiosity, plus their reverence for Melkor and their fickle nature.

Well, it is exactly because of their eagerness and curiosity that they would be terrified at the idea of death, wouldn't they? Just as the Elves fear the end of Arda. The unknown is not as homely as the not-yet-known; men would not welcome the idea of ceasing to be just out of curiosity.

No.

Myths Transformed; HoME 10

Only Eru-the creator could alter their nature-no one else, not Melkor, not Manwe, or anyone else.

Plus Eru TOLD them that they would come to him sooner-thus they would see who lied.

It comes to this: how authoritative is Myths Transformed? Is it the word of Tolkien about his world, or of an elven scholar? I don't remember :o; I'll check it. If it is Tolkien, then it is settled, Morgoth could not have done it. But if it is an elven scholar, the same problem applies.

The quote from Myth's Transformed takes the blame (if any) from the Valar and places it upon Eru, at least as regards lifespan. However, Eru is All-Knowing -- free will does not revoke that. If He allowed the lenghtening of the life-span in men, He knew what would come out of it. But the idea that Numenoreans were then "returned" to first-gen lifespan is intriguing. Could not the Valar do at least that? This would not be a "change in men's nature" -- or would it?

Tricky. And I'm confused about it now. I'll have something better to say about it when I read HoME X again.

[Beleg]

I don't believe Myths Transformed has been attributed to any Elvish Scholar.

Christopher Tolkien defines Myths Transformed as,

In this last section of the book I give a number of late writings of my father's, various in nature but concerned with, broadly speaking, the reinterpretation of central elements in the 'mythology' (or legendarium as he called it) to accord with the imperatives of a greatly modified underlying conception. Some of these papers (there are notable exceptions) offer exceptional difficulty: fluidity of ideas, ambiguous and allusive expression, illegible passages.

[Inderjit S]

I never thought of it by that angle. Eru only told the Valar that he would give "a new gift" to the Atani; were the Valar ignorant of death

No, I think they were aware of death. They had various wars, esp. the one in which they overthrew Melkor to deliver the Elves-they must have 'killed' many of his servants.


that Valar had no idea of what was death until they met Eärendil, in a gross exaggeration; or at least, not before the Sun had risen).

Many Elves died prior to that, whether to Umanayr of M-E or even Miriel and the subsequent Noldorin deaths in M-E. Unless you are talking about their perception of mannish death? Well prior to Earnedil's coming I am sure they are well aware of the nature of 'mortal man'. When Men were slain they went to the hall of Mandos briefly. Look at the story of Beren and Luthien-all the Valar were aware of Men's fate prior to them reaching Aman, and they (Or Manwe, as the case was and always is) consulted Eru as to what to do. They also were said to answer prayers in M-E, and Hurin comments to Melkor that maybe the Valar were watching over him, and the published Silmarillion tells us how Manwe+Varda would often look over M-E. But remeber, what Eru said to the Ainur upon entering Ea, some things would not be known to them.

Perhaps it means that death was a result of the refusal of the Voice, of Eru; I am rather atttracted to that.

A refusal of the voice? Eru encouraged them to think for themselves-their 'fall' came with their rejection of Eru himself-not his voice.

Well, it is exactly because of their eagerness and curiosity that they would be terrified at the idea of death, wouldn't they

But how could they be afraid of something they didn't know, at the time.

It comes to this: how authoritative is Myths Transformed? Is it the word of Tolkien about his world, or of an elven scholar

M.T is a work of Tolkien in which he 'challenges' some of his earlier ideas about the legendarium and makes up some new ideas or varies some things.

Basically, here is a run-down on the work of loremasters who wrote the Silmarillion and matters concerned with it:

Ainulindale; Manwe. Prose version prob. written by Rumil.

Valaquenta; Rumil. Pengolod?

Annals of A