Fourth Round Debate! Dwarf And elf People Versus The Scholar Type People!

[YayGollum]

Here ya go. The Dwarf and elf people get to go first. Have fun. Ick. Why is it so hard to get judges? Maybe I just started too late. :rolleyes: Stick your team members here, people.

[Feanorian]

The Scholar Team is:

Elendil3119
Feanorian
Frodo Baggins
Inderjit S

[Bethelarien]

As was proposed in the main discussion thread, would it be acceptable to the Scholars if we had only a 2 vs. 2 debate? Our team is showing an incredible determination NOT to participate.

[Elendil3119]

Well, Scholars are already out one member, as Frodo Baggins will not be able to participate until Monday. If the GoE cannot come up with a team of 4 members now, then what about the other debates? I don't really care one way or the other, I just want to get the debate started. ;)

[Elendil3119]

Is this thing ever going to start?:confused: At this point, I'm all for postponing it until next week.

[Scatha]

As proposed, a 2 vs 2 debate.

Our team for this would be:

Scatha
Bethelarien
Omnipotent_Elf
*ghost*

[omnipotent_elf]

fine, seeing as we only have two particpants....

*sighs*
i'll join the guild of elves...if it will be three vs three.....

[Feanorian]

Well in that case we can begin. A three on three debate it is. I guess we are just waiting on our honorable host.

[Scatha]

I think it is best to start this debate tomorrow, then let it run it's full week. The other debates will be closed by then and the participants will have a week to rest.


Let the debate begin, good luck Scholars. :)

[YayGollum]

Well, one person says they're just waiting for me. Another says that we should wait for tomorrow and that we should begin in the same post. oh well. Nevermind. Here's your topic. Start debating whenever you feel like it, Dwarf and elf people. :rolleyes:

Eru's gifts to humans. Dying of old age was a better gift than not having predetermined fates in that creepy music thing towards the beginning of time.

The other side would have to do the vice versa type thing.

[Elendil3119]

Who gets to choose their side?

[Scatha]

That would be us, Elendil.

[YayGollum]

Yes, I already wrote that in my first post. I don't get why you had to hold off for another day. Other debateses aren't doing that. oh well. Have fun, people.

[Scatha]

Eru's gifts to humans. Dying of old age was a better gift than not having predetermined fates in that creepy music thing towards the beginning of time.

The elven guild will try to establish, that this is incorrect.

If both humans and elves would have been given the predetermined fates, then the following things would have changed:

The 'Dying of old age' lead to the conflict of the Numenoreans and the elves, by the resident evil of Melkor. Without this difference of 'gifts', Melkor would not have been able to lead the Numenoreans into temptation to sail for Aman and 'attack' the holy grounds of the Valar.

The understanding between elves and Man would have been a lot better, thus no conflict between the two races and a stronger force would have been there to fight the forces of evil.

Melkor's influence over Man would have been diminished, which also would have lessened the strength of his forces.

Taking all these points above into consideration, Middle Earth would have been much better off, if Man and Elves would have shared the same faith.

[Feanorian]

Eru's gifts to humans. Dying of old age was a better gift than not having predetermined fates in that creepy music thing towards the beginning of time

The Scholars will atempt to prove that this Is correct.

The 'Dying of old age' lead to the conflict of the Numenoreans and the elves, by the resident evil of Melkor. Without this difference of 'gifts', Melkor would not have been able to lead the Numenoreans into temptation to sail for Aman and 'attack' the holy grounds of the Valar.

Yes the men of Numenor did desire immortality, but that is only because of their iggnorance. They had very little knowledge of Eru's Gift of Death(besides the obivous fact that they did die, they never saw it as a unique gift and ability which other races in Middle Earth lacked), look at the Numenorians, they had the greatest familiarity with Eru and even they didn't know.

In fact no one save Manwe and Mandos knew the true fates of men.

From The Lost Roads and Other Writings
What befell their spirits after death the Elves know not. (Picking back up a couple lines down) Mandos under Iluvatar alone save Manweknows whither they go after the time of recollection in those silents beside the Western Sea. They are not reborn on earth, and none have ever come back from the mansions of the dead, save only Beren son of Barahir, whose hand had touched a Silmaril.

The understanding between elves and Man would have been a lot better, thus no conflict between the two races and a stronger force would have been there to fight the forces of evil.

There is no evidence that any of the men who fought for Morogoth would have fought against him whether they had immortality or not. They had little to no contact with Elves and none with The Valar, most of them were men out of the East who were originally scared into the service of Morogoth. I don't think they would have resisted any more if they were immortal.


Melkor's influence over Man would have been diminished, which also would have lessened the strength of his forces.

Why would his influence diminish? I touched on this in the last sentence of my last paragraph.

Taking all these points above into consideration, Middle Earth would have been much better off, if Man and Elves would have shared the same fate.

Men definitly had the better side of the deal. The spirits of the Eldar were linked with the earth, they had paths set out that they followed. Men were not joined with the earth they had their own unique music which was not completed but was constantly being extended.

Eru was the all knowing "God-Head" he determined the two gifts and the races that received them. His plan for men was death and who knows after that. Most likely a continuation of life, paradise, etc.

From The Lost Road and Other Writings:The Fall of Numenor
But the fate of Men....is not complete within the world

[omnipotent_elf]

Would you like to live or die?. I know id want to live. Weather you do or not is another thing entirely. :rolleyes:.

If i got the choice beteen life an death, id choose life, especially if another race never died. Death was quite painful. Theoden demonstrated this in the two towers by his suffering over his sons death. Given the circumstances, im sure that life is a MUCH better alternative.

but thats my 2 cents worth.....

Men definitly had the better side of the deal. The spirits of the Eldar were linked with the earth, they had paths set out that they followed. Men were not joined with the earth they had their own unique music which was not completed but was constantly being extended.

yes, the choice on how to die. How wonderful.

Eru was the all knowing "God-Head" he determined the two gifts and the races that received them. His plan for men was death and who knows after that. Most likely a continuation of life, paradise, etc.

Could be nothing. We really shouldnt get into a religious debate...

They had little to no contact with Elves and none with The Valar, most of them were men out of the East who were originally scared into the service of Morogoth

Being granted the flexibility to be abused, to be dominated, to have weak wills. These arnt great characteristics. As already established, Men were scared into doing bidding for other people. They were granted the right to choose what path to take, but often they were bullied, so their "choice" was not even theirs.

Men had the power to choose the path for themselvs. Yet this is not a wonderful thing, indeed it produced weakness in their race. Most "choices" were given, were not actually made by them. They delegated the right to a king, and the king could be easily bullied. The men, by given this "honour", indeed became easy targets for other races, as indeed "their will was week"

[Feanorian]

As already established, Men were scared into doing bidding for other people. They were granted the right to choose what path to take, but often they were bullied, so their "choice" was not even theirs.

How has this been established? What is the difference between bullying and being scared into? Of course the choice wasnt theirs thus the whole essence of being scared/bullied into it.

Being granted the flexibility to be abused, to be dominated, to have weak wills. These arnt great characteristics

What makes you think immortality would change any of those characteristics? Men are men and Elves are Elves if men were granted immortality they would still be men thus keeping all of those traits. Men were still weaker mentally then Elves whether they lived for 200 years or 70.

If i got the choice beteen life an death, id choose life, especially if another race never died. Death was quite painful. Theoden demonstrated this in the two towers by his suffering over his sons death. Given the circumstances, im sure that life is a MUCH better alternative.

As I have said Men are men they are uncontent with the way things are, if not immortality then something else would just come up. How bored do you think a man would get living forever? Men dont have the same patience as Elves or the appreciation for beauty and the Valar's creations on the earth.

Men had the power to choose the path for themselvs. Yet this is not a wonderful thing, indeed it produced weakness in their race.

I dont think that creates weakness. I think men's iggnorance is what created their weakness. If they knew the true nature of their gift they would be a much more competent race. Men should have embraced their gift of death and made themselves stronger through it.

[Scatha]

Originally posted by Feanorian
How has this been established? What is the difference between bullying and being scared into? Of course the choice wasnt theirs thus the whole essence of being scared/bullied into it.

Without the threat of being killed, could Man have been bullied or scared to this extend??


What makes you think immortality would change any of those characteristics? Men are men and Elves are Elves if men were granted immortality they would still be men thus keeping all of those traits. Men were still weaker mentally then Elves whether they lived for 200 years or 70.

Man, according to elves were shortlived. they gained their mental strength through wisdom and age. Without this possibility for Man, can you really prove that Man wouldn't have been wiser and more powerful of will?? If we were to live for over centuries, like the elves, wouldn't we be wiser and have more strength of will, knowing we are immortal??


As I have said Men are men they are uncontent with the way things are, if not immortality then something else would just come up. How bored do you think a man would get living forever? Men dont have the same patience as Elves or the appreciation for beauty and the Valar's creations on the earth.

Man have no need for greater patience, for they live too short to profit of that trait. If this would have been otherwise from the start, what makes you think that Man would not have developed another way of life? I'm quite sure I would, knowing that I had time on my side.



I dont think that creates weakness. I think men's iggnorance is what created their weakness. If they knew the true nature of their gift they would be a much more competent race. Men should have embraced their gift of death and made themselves stronger through it.

Nobody was there to teach Man of their gift, remember? No Valar for the humans, etc. Don't blame Man for the ignorance, when it was the Valar that should have taught them, or the elves for that matter. Also, knowing that you are the only race that truely dies, does not exactly inspire courage, does it?

[Feanorian]

Without the threat of being killed, could Man have been bullied or scared to this extend??

How would the threat of being killed be extinguished??? Men were swayed at their start so what makes you think it would be any different had they been immortal? Even elves could die they were just given more time to adjust themselves.

Man, according to elves were shortlived. they gained their mental strength through wisdom and age. Without this possibility for Man, can you really prove that Man wouldn't have been wiser and more powerful of will?? If we were to live for over centuries, like the elves, wouldn't we be wiser and have more strength of will, knowing we are immortal??

Men did gain their knowledge over time yet men were still easily swayed. Numenor, Isildur, etc were all swayed be it by super natural powers or not. Elves were not so easily swayed. Look at Feanor he resisted Morogoth for goodness sakes and did it easily.

Man have no need for greater patience, for they live too short to profit of that trait. If this would have been otherwise from the start, what makes you think that Man would not have developed another way of life? I'm quite sure I would, knowing that I had time on my side.

Men did not have the same mindset as Elves. Men were looking for power Elves were looking for a better understanding. The only thing that would result in men being immortal is more wars and destruction. Because the hearts of men were weaker whether they lived forever or not there still would have been evil men and good men.

Nobody was there to teach Man of their gift, remember? No Valar for the humans, etc. Don't blame Man for the ignorance, when it was the Valar that should have taught them, or the elves for that matter. Also, knowing that you are the only race that truely dies, does not exactly inspire courage, does it?

It doesnt matter if men were not taught, they didnt get instructed. They were iggnorant. Who knows what the Numenors would have come to know had they followed Eru. The mention of religion was not really present in Tolkien's writings except in Numenor. They could have come to know much more then they had had they stayed true to Eru. If they knew the true nature of death then I don't think it should have discouraged but encouraged them knowing that their life forms were not linked with the earth.

More likely then not Men were the true immortals. Elves died when the world died. Men did not, no one knows the true nature of their after lives but eternity or at least another life would make a whole lot of sense.

[Scatha]

Originally posted by Feanorian

It doesnt matter if men were not taught, they didnt get instructed. They were iggnorant. Who knows what the Numenors would have come to know had they followed Eru. The mention of religion was not really present in Tolkien's writings except in Numenor. They could have come to know much more then they had had they stayed true to Eru. If they knew the true nature of death then I don't think it should have discouraged but encouraged them knowing that their life forms were not linked with the earth.

More likely then not Men were the true immortals. Elves died when the world died. Men did not, no one knows the true nature of their after lives but eternity or at least another life would make a whole lot of sense.

Feanorean, you are making the same point over and over, which we had already discarded in our previous post. Ignorant, btw is spelled with just one G. ;)

Man would have evolved differently, if they had been immortal. This is something you cannot seem to grasp, as you are still trying to debate the present state of Man. With their fates linked to the world, as the elves do, they certainly would have been more alike the elves. When your fate is linked to the Earth itself, you tend to protect it more, thus would Man have if their fate was the same as that of the Elves.

Now you can of course start to argue again that Man is not like that, but you keep forgetting that we state that they WOULD have been different then they are now, if they had shared the same faith as the elves. Unless you can refute that statement, that Man would not have evolved a different way, there's hardly any point to keep bringing up the current ways of Man, as they would not apply in that case.

[Feanorian]

Man would have evolved differently, if they had been immortal. This is something you cannot seem to grasp, as you are still trying to debate the present state of Man. With their fates linked to the world, as the elves do, they certainly would have been more alike the elves. When your fate is linked to the Earth itself, you tend to protect it more, thus would Man have if their fate was the same as that of the Elves.

Men would have evolved differently in some ways but completely....? I think not. Men would still have some characteristics and it is impossible to say otherwise.

If men did become immortal and changed/conformed in every way then what would be the difference between Men and Elves?

Eru made the species totally different how can you infer they'd be the same?

Now you can of course start to argue again that Man is not like that, but you keep forgetting that we state that they WOULD have been different then they are now, if they had shared the same faith as the elves.

Once again the two races are different. There would have to be differences between them. Elves are the first born and Men are the second.

I agree that they would change in some areas but not comepletely in any case. What valid response can you bring to say that they would change completely and be totally different people?

[Elendil3119]

The question is: "Eru's gifts to humans. Dying of old age was a better gift than not having predetermined fates in that creepy music thing towards the beginning of time."

First of all, I would like to make a vital point to this debate. The Ainulindale from The Silmarillion clearly shows that Eru is infallible. If he was fallible, he would not be God! Thus, Eru's ordination of the fate of Men was infallible. The question, however, is not whether this gift of death was fallible or not, but whether it would be better to be mortal or immortal. The Scholars are arguing the side that it would be better to be mortal than immortal. There are several reasons for this:

1. As we see from the Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth, the fate of elves was bound within Arda: both their bodies (hröar) and souls (fëar) were bound up within Arda.
Elvish 'immortality' is bounded within a part of Time (which he would call the History of Arda), and is thereefore strictly to be called rather 'serial longevity', the utmost limit of which is the lenth of the existence of Arda. A corollary of this is that the Elvish fëa is also limited to the Time of Arda, or at least held within it and unable to leave it, while it lasts. ('Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth', HoMe10)
On the other hand, the fëar of men were not bound within Arda.
Since Men die, without accident, and whether they will to do so or not, their fëar must have a different relation to Time. The Elves believed, though they had no certain information, that the fëar of Men, if disembodied, left Time (sooner or later) and never returned. ('Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth', HoMe10)

2. Eru's gift of death was exactly that: a gift. Unlike elves, who lived 'forever' unless they died from grief or were killed, Men had the gift of being able to die from old age and weariness of the world. This must have been an immense 'advantage' over the elves, especially in the time of war and strife in the First Age.

3. Since elves lived so long, they saw many battles, wars, and deaths, and must have experienced innumerable griefs. When an elf had a mortal friend, it must have been extremely hard to have to watch that friend wane and eventually die. This grief is only magnified when you examine how long elves lived! An elf's life-span was 50-100 times longer than that of a man. Without doubt there were many elves who would have welcomed death and relief from the grief and strife of the world. Notice that in point #2 I stated that elves could die from grief. I believe that this 'ability' was ordained by Eru for a reason: he knew that elves would tire of the world, and that because they lived for forever, they would experience innumerable griefs.

4. Elves were unsure of their fates.
All the Elves would then 'die' at the End of Arda. What this would mean they did not know. They said therefore that Men had a shadow behind them, but the Elves had a shadow before them. ('Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth', HoMe10)

In the Athrabeth, Andreth argues that Men were once 'immortal' like Elves, but that they were corrupted by Melkor; however, if Men shared the same fate as Elves, they would not be Men, but Elves! Eru designed the fëar of Men to leave the hröar.
But the fëar of Men must have been designed to leave Arda willingly or indeed by desire - maybe after a longer time than the present average human life, but still in a time very short compared with Elvish lives. ('Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth', HoMe10)

[omnipotent_elf]

If men did become immortal and changed/conformed in every way then what would be the difference between Men and Elves?

if men became mortal they would have had their fates predetermined too. That was the tradeoff, was it not. To have predetermined fates means they would have led the same lives.


Since elves lived so long, they saw many battles, wars, and deaths, and must have experienced innumerable griefs. When an elf had a mortal friend, it must have been extremely hard to have to watch that friend wane and eventually die.

It would have been harder on the men. At least elves knew they had life after their friends death. All men had was faith.

Elves were unsure of their fates

men moreso. They had a greater reason to be unsure. The men died. They were not sure of where they went.

Notice that in point #2 I stated that elves could die from grief.
They could also die in battles.

that means that elves had a "get out" card. They get the best of both worlds. They can live a long and fruitful life, and when it got all too much they could die. When they felt the pain of losing a close loved one, they wound't have had to deal with it. Elves were mortal too(only in a MUCH lesser extant than humans). As such, elves could live long and fruitful lives, and when they got (damn cliche's) "tired" of the world, they could leave it. Men on the other hand, didnt get the luxury. When they wanted to live longer lives, they had no choice.

[Feanorian]

One might think men have two blessings.

One Mortality the other free will.
Take one of these away and what do you have?
Let's examine.

1. Take away Free will and what do you have? A weak race still bound to Arda like the elves but capable of growing old, becoming sick, etc. Thus they become even more enferior to the Elves as before.

2. Take away mortality and you have what you think an evolved race which would grow to become just as normal and adapted as elves. While you seem to leave out all of the negative effects of immortality. Population BOOM for one. Think about it. Elves can be immortal because they are of a very limited quanity. They have very few children. While men have no such limits. They can have as many children as they want. What about the lower levels of "men" society? What about the janitors of the working force? (no offense to working janitors) How would you like to work for 10,000 years as a trash collector?

Men on the other hand, didnt get the luxury. When they wanted to live longer lives, they had no choice.

Death in it's true form was not such a low degrading thing. In essence it is a very undisturbed serene ordeal. The transistion between earth and the next is a beautiful peaceful one i.e. Elros, Aragorn.

It would have been harder on the men. At least elves knew they had life after their friends death. All men had was faith.

I don't think it would be harder. It would indeed be easier. Men didnt live in the bliss of Valinor. Most of them were slaves to evil or slaves to lives of war against it. I would be excited about death if I were one of Morogoth's thrawls. If all of my brothers, friends, family, etc died I would also desire death. Mortality was an easier life. If Elf was a slave he was a slave forever or until he was put to death he could never escape such a life.

Elves were sent back to live in their children what is the guarantee that they would be the same person with the same mental capactities? There is none, so we must dismiss your point of reconciliation because it is a gray area.

[omnipotent_elf]

1. Take away Free will and what do you have? A weak race still bound to Arda like the elves but capable of growing old, becoming sick, etc. Thus they become even more enferior to the Elves as before.

Free will is easily corrupted, thus the men did suffer from growing old, becoming sick, and theirfore became inferior to the elves. The weakness of men is well documented in the LOTR movies (allthough, they aren't a solid peice of material), but it does show that men were considered inferior to the elves, and the elves despised their weak will, abnd thus became inferior. That is not such a great gift, huh?



Death in it's true form was not such a low degrading thing. In essence it is a very undisturbed serene ordeal. The transistion between earth and the next is a beautiful peaceful one i.e. Elros, Aragorn.

yes but it is also painfull. Think about Theoden

If Elf was a slave he was a slave forever or until he was put to death he could never escape such a life

(s)he could of, you know, ESCAPED.

How would you like to work for 10,000 years as a trash collector?

Thats a wonderful fate, isnt it:p. However, Men didn't live that long, and elves would have worked up in the world. Not only that, elves would not have"garbage collectors" unless they deserved it. The elves also lived in a lot better accomodation then men (already starting to look superior), and had powers men did not have. They were gifted with many greater gifts then the men, as the mens "gift" was mortality.

Elves can be immortal because they are of a very limited quanity. They have very few children. While men have no such limits. They can have as many children as they want

our world has the problem of over-population, not having enough resources. Thats the way the men would have been. It is the human nature to populate, but we dont want to get into an argument about that, thats veering weay too far of the topic.


Just remeber, the elves considered themselves better then men for a reason!

While you seem to leave out all of the negative effects of immortality

THERE ARE GOOD THINGS ASSOCIATED WITH IT! its not just watching all your friends die. Especially if most of your friends are indeed immortal as-well. Having the gift of life is a wonderfull thing, and the men were in a sense robbed' of such a valuable gift.

[Feanorian]

Omnipotent you seem to not really understand where I am coming from with many of my points.

1.
Thats a wonderful fate, isnt it. However, Men didn't live that long, and elves would have worked up in the world. Not only that, elves would not have"garbage collectors" unless they deserved it. The elves also lived in a lot better accomodation then men (already starting to look superior), and had powers men did not have. They were gifted with many greater gifts then the men, as the mens "gift" was mortality.

Exactly men didnt live forever. They did not have the bliss of the elves, they WERE inferior to them. That is just one reason why death in the sense of leaving Arda was such a good thing.

Free will is easily corrupted, thus the men did suffer from growing old, becoming sick, and theirfore became inferior to the elves. The weakness of men is well documented in the LOTR movies (allthough, they aren't a solid peice of material), but it does show that men were considered inferior to the elves, and the elves despised their weak will, abnd thus became inferior. That is not such a great gift, huh?

When I say free will I mean the obvious but also the whole point of their fates being set out of Arda rather then being connecting with it. From The Sil:

But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy.

Men had the envies of the Powers i.e. The Valar whom two of which truly understand the true fates of men. If their fates are to be desired by Manwe then they are obivously not a bad thing. :rolleyes:

our world has the problem of over-population, not having enough resources. Thats the way the men would have been. It is the human nature to populate, but we dont want to get into an argument about that, thats veering weay too far of the topic.

The over-population of our world is nothing compared to the state Arda would be in had men gained immortality. That means they never die (unless of course they are killed somehow) that means they live to see their great-great-great-great-great-etc Grand children and so on. I don't think it veers off topic it is a valuable point.

THERE ARE GOOD THINGS ASSOCIATED WITH IT! its not just watching all your friends die. Especially if most of your friends are indeed immortal as-well. Having the gift of life is a wonderfull thing, and the men were in a sense robbed' of such a valuable gift.

Once again refer to my quote from the Sil. Immortality after 10 ages becomes bland, tiresome, and just plain boring. Even for the gods of the earth. They too envy men for their great fates.

Once again from The Sil:
Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Ilúvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Ilúvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased.

This proves Men have a fate after earth. It says that a GREATER fate awaits them after their departure of Arda. This of course is refering to the Second Music in which men play the pre-dominate role.

[Elendil3119]

Omnipotent_elf:
Free will is easily corrupted, thus the men did suffer from growing old, becoming sick, and theirfore became inferior to the elves. The weakness of men is well documented in the LOTR movies (allthough, they aren't a solid peice of material), but it does show that men were considered inferior to the elves, and the elves despised their weak will, abnd thus became inferior. That is not such a great gift, huh?
Wait a second! I thought we were arguing whether it would be better to be immortal or mortal, not whether it would be better to be a Man or an Elf. There are more differences between Men and Elves than mortality. Thus, we are not talking about the inferiority of Men; but rather are discussing only the aspects of mortality and immortality.

Advantages of mortality:

1. You don't have to live forever. You die naturally, and are thus released from the pain and burden of life.

2. You don't have the same experience as the elves, in that the elves had to watch human friends die from generation to generation. In other words, your peers are the same age/generation as you.

3. As Feanorian stated, mortality was the easier life. You were not burdened with the weight of 5000 odd years of events and griefs like the elves.

Disadvantages of mortality:

1. Ever since Eru's gift of mortality was semi-corrupted by Morgoth, Men lived in fear of death. That fear is not, however, 'built in' to mortality. Rather, it arose from lack of faith in Eru in the beginning days of Men. But again, this fear of death is not natural to mortality.


I outlined the disadvantages of immortality in my last post, but I'll restate them here:

1. Countless griefs and worries that 'pile up' after 1000s of years of life.

2. Watching your mortal friends die.

3. Weariness of life.

4. Unsureness of your fate.

[Scatha]

Originally posted by Elendil3119
Wait a second! I thought we were arguing whether it would be better to be immortal or mortal, not whether it would be better to be a Man or an Elf. There are more differences between Men and Elves than mortality. Thus, we are not talking about the inferiority of Men; but rather are discussing only the aspects of mortality and immortality.

Originally posted by YayGollum
Eru's gifts to humans. Dying of old age was a better gift than not having predetermined fates.

So we are debating whether the gift to Man was a better gift then the immortality of the Elves.


Advantages of mortality:

1. You don't have to live forever. You die naturally, and are thus released from the pain and burden of life.

2. You don't have the same experience as the elves, in that the elves had to watch human friends die from generation to generation. In other words, your peers are the same age/generation as you.

3. As Feanorian stated, mortality was the easier life. You were not burdened with the weight of 5000 odd years of events and griefs like the elves.

Man wanted to live forever, just like the Elves and not die of old age. To them, mortality was not such a great gift at all, whether you and feanorean state it was easier or not.



Disadvantages of mortality:

1. Ever since Eru's gift of mortality was semi-corrupted by Morgoth, Men lived in fear of death. That fear is not, however, 'built in' to mortality. Rather, it arose from lack of faith in Eru in the beginning days of Men. But again, this fear of death is not natural to mortality.


I outlined the disadvantages of immortality in my last post, but I'll restate them here:

1. Countless griefs and worries that 'pile up' after 1000s of years of life.

2. Watching your mortal friends die.

3. Weariness of life.

4. Unsureness of your fate.

Fear of death is always part of mortality, with or without the influence of Morgoth, Sauron, or whomever.

Man never experienced these countless griefs, as you call them. These would have been less for the elves, if Man was immortal like they were.

Nor would they have had to watch their mortal friends die, if Man had been immortal.

Weariness of life ended, when the Elves went to Aman. Man had no such choice.


Men lead an insecure life, which was far more of a burden in their eyes, then to share the fate of the Elves. Therefor the gift to them, was not better then the fate of the elves.

[Feanorian]

Men lead an insecure life, which was far more of a burden in their eyes, then to share the fate of the Elves. Therefor the gift to them, was not better then the fate of the elves.

We are not debating what men, elves, The Valar, Old Man Willow, or Eru himself thought about it thus in their eyes doesn't apply. We are talking about the over all which was better.

Eru's gifts to humans. Dying of old age was a better gift than not having predetermined fates in that creepy music thing towards the beginning of time.

So really all men ever could hate and resist death and hate their gift but when they die they would realize their true fates and how much better they were. The true burden on Arda was that of The Valar and The Elves. From my last post
But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy.

So as time wears which means as time goes on as Elves and Valar spend more and more time on the earth they will become weary and envy the gift of men.

This gives better evidence for the main jist of the question that we are actually debating.

[Scatha]

Originally posted by Feanorian
We are not debating what men, elves, The Valar, Old Man Willow, or Eru himself thought about it thus doesn't apply. We are talking about the over all which was better.

We are debating the viewpoint of Men, that this was not the case. Therefor it does apply and certainly is our POV for this debate.


So really all men ever could hate and resist death and hate their gift but when they die they would realize their true fates and how much better they were. The true burden on Arda was that of The Valar and The Elves. From my last post


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So as time wears which means as time goes on as Elves and Valar spend more and more time on the earth they will become weary and envy the gift of men.

This gives better evidence for the main jist of the question that we are actually debating.

By the quote you use, you strengthen our arguement, Feanorian.
Men die, no afterlife, no Halls of Mandos, no return... just limbo, nothing. Where is the advantage in that??

If our point regarding what Men thought of their gift does not apply, then you probably know where your 'Elves and Valar spend more and more time on the earth they will become weary and envy the gift of men' ends up, do you?? Since if our arguement does not apply in the context of this debate, then neither does yours. Hence it wouldn't give a jist of what we are debating at all, nor does it present any evidence. The only thing it does is stating the exact opposite of what I said earlier, without presenting any information to counteract our statement, nor does it add anything to prove your stance.


Exactly men didnt live forever. They did not have the bliss of the elves, they WERE inferior to them. That is just one reason why death in the sense of leaving Arda was such a good thing.

Men were not inferior to the Elves at all, but merely did not have the time to gather wisdom due to their timeconstraint. On top of that, they had nothing to look forward to after their lives ended, which is hardly anything to envy.... whether by Valar or Elves.


Men had the envies of the Powers i.e. The Valar whom two of which truly understand the true fates of men. If their fates are to be desired by Manwe then they are obivously not a bad thing.


The Valar only knew the true faith of Men, but never truly understood this race. Not a single one of them. If they would have really understood Men, they wouldn't have been denied the passage into Amman by their own choosing, but should have been welcomed with open arms as they would therefor have chosen to stay with the Valar and the Elves, instead of using the gift they envied.

Once again, your point is flawed, as the logic behind it fails to make sense to us mortals. ;)

[Bethelarien]

Finally time for my big debut. I couldn't find Elendil's quotes from HoME for a while.:mad:

Otherwise it is with us: dying we die, and we go out to no return. Death is an uttermost end, a loss irremediable. And it is abominable; for it is also a wrong that is done to us. (Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth, HoME 10.)

Although it was Eru's "gift", Men certainly didn't see it that way. Not having been taught by the Valar as the Elves had, they were very bitter about it, feeling that something had been taken from them, and that they had been wronged. These bitter feelings created a deep gulf between the two races that otherwise would not have been there.

You were not at first doomed to swift death….What did ye do, ye Men, long ago in the dark? How did ye anger Eru?(Finrod, in Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth.)

Finrod, and Elda, declares and admits readily that Men were not at first doomed to swift death, and wondered how Men angered Eru. This implies that it was some action of Men (later revealed by Andreth in a long story about how Melkor deceived Men and Eru was angry) that led to their immortality being taken away. Again, this would develop a great deal of bitterness in the hearts of Men.

In our beginning we had been born never to die….born to life everlasting, without any shadow of any end.(Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth.)

Again we see an affirmation of the race of Men beginning in immortality, only to have it brutally and coldly snatched from them.

Therefore, the Guild of Elves puts forth that had the gifts of Men and Elves been equal, bitterness would not have sprung up between the two races, and future calamities would have been prevented. It was better for Men to be immortal.

We have also said that the conflict between the fates of the two races led to the conflict of the Numenoreans and the Elves.

…And they broke the Ban of the Valar, and sailed into forbidden seas, going up with war against the Deathless, to wrest from them everlasting life within the Circles of the World.(Akallabêth, The Silmarillion.)

Being denied immortality, Melkor stirred up the Numenoreans using the bitterness they already felt. Because they were denied something they greatly desired, they rebelled, causing the ruin of Numenor. Had they been equal to the Elves and possessed eternal life, they would have had no need to rise up against the Valar.

Men definitely had the better side of the deal….Men were not joined with the earth they had their own unique music….

Indeed they did. Many choices given to Men, however, were made for them, as Omni has said. They were bullied, coerced, tricked, deceived, and forced into decisions, rather than being allowed to actually make them for themselves. And look what Men did when they did have a choice:

~Ar-Pharazon-brought on war with the Valar, causing the destruction of Numenor because of his arrogance and his desire for the immortality denied to him.

~The Nazgûl-accepted the nine Rings without question, turning them into Sauron's slaves. Wonderful choice.

~In early First Age battles (Battle of Unnumbered Tears?), Men betrayed the Elves and fought for Morgoth, causing the slaughter of more of the Elves. Can we truly say this would have happened had the Men been immortal as well?

Such lovely choices, don't you agree?

Men did gain their knowledge over time yet men were still easily swayed.

Exactly. Over time, the very little time they had. How much wisdom can be gained in a hundred years? How much more in ten thousand? Men had nowhere near as much wisdom as the Elves did, as is to be expected, which put them at a distinct disadvantage. It would have been much better if Men had been immortal, giving them greater wisdom, and preserving them, most likely, from the deceit of Morgoth and Sauron.

[YayGollum]

Gots a warning for you people. This is over sometime tomorrow. I hope that the judges have been paying attention. *looks around for them*

[Elendil3119]

Finally time for my big debut. I couldn't find Elendil's quotes from HoME for a while.
Well, that's your fault for not starting reading until the middle of the debate! ;) :p
Although it was Eru's "gift", Men certainly didn't see it that way. Not having been taught by the Valar as the Elves had, they were very bitter about it, feeling that something had been taken from them, and that they had been wronged. These bitter feelings created a deep gulf between the two races that otherwise would not have been there.
Apparently you are forgetting about the intrusion of Melkor when Men first awoke. As is explained in the Tale of Adanel, at the awakening of Men, Melkor appeared to them and taught them many wonderful and amazing things, and in time, Men took Melkor to be their lord. In time, they came to trust him so much that when he ordered them to worship him, they did. Melkor required the giving of gifts, and after a while, Men were in complete subjection to him. The consequence of this was Eru's wrath:
The first Voice we never heard again, save once. In the
stillness of the night It spoke, saying: 'Ye have abjured Me, but
ye remain Mine. I gave you life. Now it shall be shortened, and
each of you in a little while shall come to Me, to learn who is
your Lord: the one ye worship, or I who made him.' ('The Tale of Adanel', HoMe10)

The Men brought Eru's wrath upon themselves.
Finrod, and Elda, declares and admits readily that Men were not at first doomed to swift death, and wondered how Men angered Eru.
No, it was Andreth that stated the tradition that men "were not at first doomed to swift death", and Finrod was simply restating her point of view.
Finrod speaking:
'You were not at first doomed to swift death. Much could be said concerning this belief (be it a true guess or no). ('Athrabeth', HoMe 10)
Of course, this view is coming from a bitter woman born many generations after the awakening of Men; it is not to be necessarily trusted. Even the "Wise" did not know for sure.
But there are some that think otherwise; men call them "Wise", but heed them little. For they do not speak with assurance or with one voice, having no sure knowledge such as you boast of, but perforce depending upon "lore" , from which truth (if it can be found) must be winnowed. And in every winnowing there is chaff with the corn that is chosen, and doutbless some corn with the chaff that is rejected. ('Athrabeth', HoMe 10)


Again we see an affirmation of the race of Men beginning in immortality, only to have it brutally and coldly snatched from them.
Remember, we're talking about Eru here! Eru = infallible God. "Brutally and coldly" are not words to be used in reference to him lightly.
Therefore, the Guild of Elves puts forth that had the gifts of Men and Elves been equal, bitterness would not have sprung up between the two races, and future calamities would have been prevented. It was better for Men to be immortal.
Umm, if Men had the same fate and gifts as Elves, they would be Elves, not Men! ;)
We have also said that the conflict between the fates of the two races led to the conflict of the Númenoreans and the Elves.
The conflict between the Númenoreans and Elves was the consequence of the greed of the Númenoreans who wanted to have the best of both worlds, but couldn't. It was impossible for Man to dwell in Valinor; their bodies would wither very quickly in the presence of the light of the Valar.
Ar-Pharazon-brought on war with the Valar, causing the destruction of Númenor because of his arrogance and his desire for the immortality denied to him.
He was fooled by Sauron, as were most of the Númenoreans; however, not only Men were deceived by Sauron. You must remember that even the ‘wise, all-knowing, and perfect’ Elves were deceived by Sauron when he came to teach them ring-lore. The men of Númenor may have longed for longer life (or ever immortality), but without the influence of Sauron, they would never have been conceited or stupid enough to launch a full-scale attack on Valinor!
~In early First Age battles (Battle of Unnumbered Tears?), Men betrayed the Elves and fought for Morgoth, causing the slaughter of more of the Elves. Can we truly say this would have happened had the Men been immortal as well?

But Maeglin was an elf, and he betrayed the people of Gondolin!
Exactly. Over time, the very little time they had. How much wisdom can be gained in a hundred years? How much more in ten thousand? Men had nowhere near as much wisdom as the Elves did, as is to be expected, which put them at a distinct disadvantage. It would have been much better if Men had been immortal, giving them greater wisdom, and preserving them, most likely, from the deceit of Morgoth and Sauron.
"Greater wisdom" like the Noldor who left 'paradise' to pursue an undefeatable Enemy. :rolleyes: Wisdom was not something naturally gained with age among the Eldar. Finrod was an exception, not the rule. As we can see with the sons of Feanor, not all nor even the majority of Elves were wise.

[Bethelarien]

As a closing time for this debate was not specified, the GoE will post its closing arguments now.

The GoE believe that it would have been better for Men to be immortal as well as the Elves, or rather that the statement
Eru's gifts to humans. Dying of old age was a better gift than not having predetermined fates.
is incorrect.

We put forward that, had the gifts of Elves and Men been equal, Melkor would not have been able to incite the Numenoreans to rebel and attack the Valar.

There would have been less bitterness between the two races, as the Men would not have so coveted the immortality that the Elves possessed, since they would possess it as well.

Although being mortal was supposed to give them power over their own destinies, more often their choices are made for them, or they are forced into a decision by coercion, deceit, force, etc. Therefore, if they had immortality, it would have been better for both races.

We also declare that, had the Men been gifted with immortality, the race would have evolved differently, bringing them closer to their kin, the Elves. This would have also served to lessen the bitterness and the gulf between the two races.

So say the Guild of Elves.

[Elendil3119]

Closing post for the GoS

The question being debated is whether it would be better to be mortal or immortal. The GoS defended the side that it Eru’s gift of mortality to Man was better than the gift of immortality.

First we will examine each of the GoE’s main arguments. (I am quoting the GoE’s closing post for simplicity; statements of the GoE in skyblue)
We put forward that, had the gifts of Elves and Men been equal, Melkor would not have been able to incite the Numenoreans to rebel and attack the Valar.
I must say that this argument of the GoE’s is quite unreasonable, and is entirely invalidated by the following quote from Tolkien’s commentary on the Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth:
That is, their ‘immortality’ cannot have been the longevity within Arda of the Elves; otherwise they would have been simply Elves, and their separate introduction later into the Drama by Eru would have no function. He (Finrod) thinks that the notion of Men that, unchanged, they would not have died (in the sense off leaving Arda) is due to human misrepresentation of their own tradition, and possible to envious comparison of themselves to the Elves.
Obviously, there are reasons why Eru did not give the same fate to both races, the main one being that if both shared the same fate, there would not be two races, but one! Therefore most of the GoE’s closing arguments are undone.
There would have been less bitterness between the two races, as the Men would not have so coveted the immortality that the Elves possessed, since they would possess it as well.
As the GoS has shown in previous posts, there was not really much to envy or covet. Men simply desired ‘immortality’ of the flesh, without realizing or considering the ‘baggage’ that went along with it. Finrod states in the Athrabeth:
‘And then we must die; we must perish utterly, it seems, for we belong to Arda (in hroa and fea). And beyond that what? “The going out to no return,” as you say; “the uttermost end, the irremediable loss”? Our hunter is slow-footed, but he never loses the trail. Beyond the day when he shall blow the mort, we have no certainty, no knowledge. And no one speaks to us of hope.’
‘Anon we may,’ said Finrod, ‘but as yet we walk in the shadows of fear. Thus far, then, I perceive that the great difference between Elves and Men is in the speed of the end. In this only, For if you deem that for the Quendi there is no death ineluctable, you err.’

The Scholars (at least the ones involved in this debate) hold that Andreth was mistaken in her beliefs that Men were originally mortal. There are several quotes to back this up:

#1.
“But there are some that think otherwise; men call them “Wise”, but heed them little. For they do not speak with assurance or with one voice, having no sure knowledge such as ye boast of, but perforce depending upon “lore, from which truth (if it can be found) must be winnowed. And in every winnowing there is chaff with the corn that is chosen, and doubtless some corn with the chaff which is rejected.”

#2.
‘Beware of the chaff with your corn, Andreth! For it may be deadly: lies of the Enemy that out of envy will breed hate. Not all the voices that come out of the darkness speak truth to those minds that listen for strange news But who did you this hurt? Who imposed death upon you? Melkor, it is plain that you would say…..Nay death is but the name that we give to something that he has tainted, and it sounds therefore evil; but untainted its name would be good.’

#3.
‘Then this is a matter of dread,’ said Finrod. ‘We know Melkor, the Morgoth, and know him to be mighty…..But never even in the night have we believed that he could prevail against the Children of Eru. This one he might cozen, or that one he might corrupt; but to change the doom of a whole people of the Children, to rob them of inheritance: if he could do that in Eru’s despite, then greater and more terrible is he by far than we guessed; then all the valour of the Noldor is but presumption and folly – nay, Valinor and the Mountains of the Pelori are builded on sand.’

#4.
‘Beware!’ said Finrod. ‘Beware lest you speak the unspeakable, wittingly or in ignorance, confounding Eru with the Enemy who would fain have you do so. The Lord of this World is not he, but the One who made him, and his Vicegerent is Manwe, the Elder King of Arda who is blessed.’

#5.
'Then have the Wise among you considered how strange is the true nature that they claim for the Atani?' said Finrod. 'Is it so strange?' said Andreth. 'Many of the Wise hold that in their true nature no living things would die.'
'In that the Eldar would say that they err,' said Finrod. 'To us your claim for Men is strange, and indeed hard to accept, for two reasons. You claim, if you fully understand your own words, to have had imperishable bodies, not bounded by the limits of Arda, and yet derived from its matter and sustained by it. And you claim also (though this you may not have perceived) to have had hroar and fear that were from the beginning out of harmony. Yet harmony of hroa and fea is, we believe, essential to the true nature unmarred of all the Incarnate: the Mirroanwi as we call the Children of Eru.'

#6.
From Letter 153
“….my legendarium, especially the ‘Downfall of Númenor’ which lies immediately behind the Lord of the Rings, is based on my view: that Men are essentially Mortal and must not try to become ‘immortal’ in the flesh.”

Also, in this (‘Ye have abjured Me, but ye remain Mine. I gave you life. Now it shall be shortened…..’) quote from the Tale of Adanel, it is not stated that Eru withdrew the gift of immortality; rather, it is said that he shortened the lifespan of Men, implying that Men once had longer lifespans, but not that they were immortal.

**********************

Once again I will outline the disadvantages of immortality that make it not desirable.

1. As we see from the Athrabeth, the fate of elves was bound within Arda: both their hröar and fëar were bound up within Arda.
Elvish 'immortality' is bounded within a part of Time (which he would call the History of Arda), and is thereefore strictly to be called rather 'serial longevity', the utmost limit of which is the lenth of the existence of Arda. A corollary of this is that the Elvish fëa is also limited to the Time of Arda, or at least held within it and unable to leave it, while it lasts. ('Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth', HoMe10)

2. The griefs and worries of Elves piled up for 1000s of years, creating an immense burden.

3. When an Elf had a mortal friend that died, it was extremely hard to understand this brevity of life, and must have been a great grief.
’Sad to me, Andreth,’ he (Finrod) said, ‘is the swift passing of your people. For now Boron your father’s father is gone; and though he was old, you say, as age goes among Men, yet I had known him too briefly…

4. Elves were unsure of their fates.
All the Elves would then 'die' at the End of Arda. What this would mean they did not know. They said therefore that Men had a shadow behind them, but the Elves had a shadow before them. ('Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth', HoMe10)

5. Great weariness of life.


Now on to the GoS’s arguments. The GoS has argued throughout the debate that not only was immortality not desirable, but that mortality is the better fate. Our first argument is that Men are not bounded within the fate of Arda.
Since Men die, without accident, and whether they will to do so or not, their fëar must have a different relation to Time. The Elves believed, though they had no certain information, that the fëar of Men, if disembodied, left Time (sooner or later) and never returned. ('Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth', HoMe10)
Secondly, Men had a greater role predestined in the Second Music, as is shown by the quotes below.
Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Ilúvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Ilúvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased. (Published Silmarillion)
“Men (the Followers or Second Kindred) came second, but it is guessed that in the first design of God they were destined (after tutelage) to take on the governance of all the Earth, and ultimately to become Valar, to ‘enrich Heaven’, Iluve.” (JRRT’s Commentary on the Athrabeth, HoMe 10)
Third, the gift of free will to Men. Take away free will and what do you have? A weak race still bound to Arda like the elves but capable of growing old, becoming sick, etc.

Finally, there is one point that needs to be made about death: that death uncorrupted is a wonderful thing. Men only came to fear death after it was tainted by the malice of Melkor. As we can see from the deaths of Elros, Aragorn and others, death was a good thing. As Finrod states,
'Nay death is but the name that we give to something that he has tainted, and it sounds therefore evil; but untainted its name would be good.’
We rest our case. :)



P.S. Cheers to Feanorian for helping with this post!

[YayGollum]

Why do you write that a closing time wasn't specified? I just posted that little warning thing. oh well. Maybe you were talking about a time of the day. Not a huge deal. Today is the day. No more crazy debate posts.