Debate Tournament - Round 4: Outcasts vs. Periaur

[Scatha]

My apologies for the delay of this post. As you all may be aware, I recently was given the title of guildmaster for the GoE and we are having a few difficulties to get things organized, due to lack of participation.

Please list your teams below, so that we may get started.

[Nóm]

Thanks a lot Scatha :)


GoO team:

Nóm
Sarah
The-Elf-Herself
YayGollum

[Scatha]

Gil-Galad has been courteous enough to take the elven guild up on it's offer, to host this debate on behalf of the GoE.

If nobody objects, he will lead this debate from this point on.

[Gil-Galad]

First of all I would like to thank Scatha .That was so kind of you and I'm flattered to be given the chance to be a host of a debate.

It is a great honour for me to be a host of the debate between The Guild of Outcasts and The Guild of Periaur !I'm sure it will be an interesting and tough debate.


I want to ask
The Guild of Periaur to pm-me and give me the list of their team.

[Snaga]

Firstly I would like to point out that the Periaur are in fact the home team in this round. So says the schedule!:)

Our team is:

Snaga1 - aka 'the horrible orc'
Wonko The Sane - aka 'the dizzy elf'
Tookish Girl - aka 'the hairy hobbit'
Legolam - aka 'the brainy old troll'...:D

[Gil-Galad]

I see that the teams are ready so here is the topic:


From The Lord of the Rings: The Council of Elrond


'But my home, such as I have, is in the North. For here the heirs of Valandil have ever dwelt in long line unbroken from father unto son for many generations. Our days have darkened, and we have dwindled; but ever the Sword has passed to a new keeper. And this I will say to you, Boromir, ere I end. Lonely men are we, Rangers of the wild, hunters--but hunters ever of the servants of the Enemy; for they are found in many places, not in Mordor only."


The question is:

Which contributions to the defeat of Sauron in the TA is greater? Those of the Arnor and it's descendants or those of Gondor's?


GOOD LUCK
to the both Guilds!

The debate is open and the one week period of the debate will be started when the first post is made by The Guild of Periaur.

Once again Good luck!

[Snaga]

The Periaur will argue that the contribution of Arnor was the greater.

Let me present a position statement first of all, and later posts can provide the evidence that will amply prove the point.

Which contributions to the defeat of Sauron in the TA is greater? Those of the Arnor and it's descendants or those of Gondor's?

Who are 'Those of Arnor and its descendants'?

(1) The line of Valandil. The most obvious contribution is that of Aragorn, who amongst other things by challenging Sauron via the palantir drew forth the attack on Gondor before Sauron was ready, and then defeated the Corsairs and turned their fleet against Mordor. Without this the crucial battle of Pelennor would have been lost.

More than this he saved the hobbits from losing the Ring to the Nazgul on the road to Rivendell. And then led the Fellowship from Moria onwards (contrast to Boromir of Gondor's contribution!)

(2) The rangers of Arnor, last of the Dunedain. We must not forget the watch that the Rangers set about the Shire that protected the secret of the Ring from the servants of the enemy.

(3) The hobbits. The hobbits were subjects of Arnor who acknowledged the authority of the King at Fornost. Consider the contribution of these Arnorians!
- Finding the Ring by Bilbo
- Stirring up of the Ents by Merry and Pippin, so bringing about the defeat of Saruman, and thus the Ride of the Rohirrim
- The Downfall of the Witch-King, at the hands of Merry
- Saving the life of Faramir
- The destruction of the Ring, and with it, the end of Sauron.

Now, the Periaur will not aim to decry the noble defiance of Gondor but they cannot compete with these contributions. They held out for as long as possible, but the crucial parts were played by Arnorians, whether dunedain or hobbit.

[Nóm]

We're dead meat :eek:



Seriously though, men in the third age is my area of least interest and therefore least knowledge, so I much reading to do before I can post. Just so no one thinks we're trying to pull a last minute sneek attack... to Aragorn the Pelennor. :o

[Nóm]

Thanks to Gondor for:

A) This is where the most major battles, and damage to Sauron's followers took place in the third age.

B) Providing the means for Gandalf to confirm the identity of the One Ring.

C) The existance of and alligence with the Rohirrim.

D) Faramir's assistance to Sam and Frodo, and the sparing of Gollum's life.

E) Boromir bringing the prophecy of the Blade that was broken, and aiding the fellowship.

F) Holding back Mordor, and so keeping the lands above more safe.

G) Providing the decoy atack which allowed the hobbits to get the Ring to the cracks of Doom.

H) In the palantir Denethor saw more forces to come. This was used by Gandalf to help convince Imrahil and them that action needed to be taken, and that the victory on the Pelennor was a small one that would be followed by defeat.


(1) The line of Valandil. The most obvious contribution is that of Aragorn, who amongst other things by challenging Sauron via the palantir drew forth the attack on Gondor before Sauron was ready, and then defeated the Corsairs and turned their fleet against Mordor. Without this the crucial battle of Pelennor would have been lost.

This was an important element in the victory, but no more than Gondor and it's people who made up the greatest portion of the armies against Sauron's. Rohan was also a major part of the Pelennor field's victory. No Gondor = No Rohan.

More than this he saved the hobbits from losing the Ring to the Nazgul on the road to Rivendell. And then led the Fellowship from Moria onwards (contrast to Boromir of Gondor's contribution!)

See B - He only did this because the hobbits where traveling outside the Shire with the One Ring, and they were only doing this because of Gandalf's discovery of the identity of the Ring. The ground work was laid for Aragorn to do this, and Gondor had a huge part in that.


(2) The rangers of Arnor, last of the Dunedain. We must not forget the watch that the Rangers set about the Shire that protected the secret of the Ring from the servants of the enemy.

Nazgul were combing The Shire and one was seen on Bagshot Row. How's that for protection?

(3) The hobbits. The hobbits were subjects of Arnor who acknowledged the authority of the King at Fornost. Consider the contribution of these Arnorians!
- Finding the Ring by Bilbo

Finding the Ring was only a good thing since it lead to the destruction of it, and it only did so because of the record of Isildur in Gondor.


- Stirring up of the Ents by Merry and Pippin, so bringing about the defeat of Saruman, and thus the Ride of the Rohirrim

See C - There was Rohan because of Gondor whose steward gave them that land.

- The Downfall of the Witch-King, at the hands of Merry

See C - There was Eowyn because of Gondor. Eowyn killed the Witch-king.

- Saving the life of Faramir

See D - Faramir's role in the defeat of Sauron had already happend. So saving his life was not a contribution to Sauron's defeat.

- The destruction of the Ring, and with it, the end of Sauron.

See G - Gondor was the decoy which allowed this to happen, along with Faramir's sparing of Gollum's life.

The primary battle in the WotR was won largely by Gondor and Rohan's people, and in Gondor.

The whole lot of Arnor and Middle-earth were protected long enough and well enough for them to play their part in the defeat of Sauron only because Gondor was on the front line.

The major element in the destruction of Sauron was the destruction of the Ring, which was dependent upon their being a plan to destroy it, and this plan was the result of Gandalf using Gondor to confirm the identity of the Ring. The plan was carried out because a noble man of Gondor spared the life of Gollum and let the hobbits go, but most of all it was a success because of the decoy attack which was mostly poeple of Gondor and Rohan.

Other people of Middle-earth had important roles in the final defeat of Sauron, but none of them, not even Arnor, had as much contribution as Gondor. Just as Tuor played a major part in the destruction of Morgoth, yet the Edain contributed no more than the Eldar in the WotJ.

Important elements (such as Aragorn) only have the opportunity to be important because of the other elements that set the groundwork.

[Gil-Galad]

I would like to annouce that the deadline for your posts is :



07-11-2003 08:19 AM GMT

[Legolam]

Apologies for the delay - as many of you know, I'm banned from TTF at work :(

Before I get my teeth into Nom's post, I'd like to add to Snaga's by showing that not only did Arnor and her descendants have a greater contribution to Sauron's downfall, but Gondor actively hindered the fight against Sauron in the TA.

In chronological order:

1) Let us not forget the reason that Sauron was around in the TA. After Elendil separated the Ring from its master, Isildur had the perfect opportunity to prevent the strife that followed. However, the heir of Gondor failed to cast the ring into Mount Doom, thus beginning the saga we know as the War of the Ring.

(I know you're going to say that Isildur was Arnorian, so let me save you the trouble of trying to argue that. This quote should be satisfactory:)

LOTR: Appendix A

Elendil had two sons, of whom Isildur was the elder and the heir of his father... the name of Elendil stands to this day at the head of the line of the Kings of Gondor

2) Gondor singlehandedly installed Saruman at Isengard, and you know where that got us! A spy in the heart of Rohan, whispering lies in Theoden's ear; the breeding of a dangerous race of uruk-hai; the destruction of the Shire to name, but three outcomes.

3) Denethor looked into the palantir "most in accord with the one that Sauron possessed". This led to him being "aged before his time" and "pride increased in Denethor together with despair". Denethor's cosy conversations with Sauron led to the weakening of Nom's "groundwork" and undermining the attempt of the North to defeat Sauron.

4) Boromir put the Ringbearer's quest in considerable peril by challenging Frodo for the Ring. But for the quick thinking of Aragorn and Sam (coincidentally, "descendants of Arnor"), much could have been lost.

These are but 4 illustrations of how Gondor actually hindered the fight to defeat Sauron. You may argue that these were just bad decisions in hindsight but, nevertheless, they had a great bearing on the War of the Ring. Furthermore, despite Nom's brave attempt to describe Gondor's actions as "groundwork", the fact remains that this was not enough. Each time Gondor got itself into a pickle, Arnor's descendants were there to pick up the pieces. As for which "side" made a greater contribution - Arnor and her descendants were simply always there to rescue Gondor at the crucial moment and that is why they deserve their place as the greater force in the fight against Sauron.

~The Brainy Old Troll

[Nóm]

Since you will credit Isildur's actions to Gondor, I will do the same.

(1) The line of Valandil. The most obvious contribution is that of Aragorn, who amongst other things by challenging Sauron via the palantir drew forth the attack on Gondor before Sauron was ready, and then defeated the Corsairs and turned their fleet against Mordor. Without this the crucial battle of Pelennor would have been lost.

It was because of the Paths of the Dead, and more importantly the dead, that Aragorn was able to to do this.
The Oathbreakers existed because Isildur cursed them. It was this army of the dead which frightened away the Haradrim who came upon Aragorn's company laughing at their small numbers. Thank you Isildur!

(3) The hobbits. The hobbits were subjects of Arnor who acknowledged the authority of the King at Fornost. Consider the contribution of these Arnorians!
- Finding the Ring by Bilbo
In addition to what I said of this in my last post, we have this: Bilbo found the Ring because Gollum had found it, and Gollum only found it because Isildur had lost it where he did.

The question asks which Realm contributed most to the defeat of Sauron. Isildur's failure to destroy the Ring lead to the rebuilding of Sauron, but this does not lessen the contributions of Gondor in the defeat of Sauron.

Saruman's treacherous role was a big part in the events that lead to the defeat of Sauron.

[Nóm]

If Periaur will use Boromir's failure to lessen the Contribution Gondor had in the final defeat of Sauron, then I will use the same reasoning.

Frodo who you credit to Arnor, claimed the Ring for himself and if not for a freak accident Sauron would have got the Ring (If requested I wil quote from Letters to back that).


Arnor made critical contributions to the defeat of Sauron. So did Gondor. Gondor's contribution was greater though, because it's people held Sauron back and fought more than others against Sauron and his people during the Third Age. It protected the lands to the North, and it was the hub of the major defense against and attack of Sauron during the WotR. It was in Gondor that the major battle was fought and primarly by Gondorians. It was also where Gandalf found the missing piece of the One Ring puzzle, not only thanks to Gondor for having that record, but also to Isildur for writing that down.


2) Gondor singlehandedly installed Saruman at Isengard, and you know where that got us! A spy in the heart of Rohan, whispering lies in Theoden's ear; the breeding of a dangerous race of uruk-hai; the destruction of the Shire to name, but three outcomes.

Maybe things would have turned out better had Saruman not set up at Orthanc, but we can not know.

But based on the way things did work out, this thing ended up as an element in the defeat of Sauron. It was because of Saruman that Gandalf ended up with a palantir which Aragorn used to shake Sauron up causing him to strike sooner than he otherwise would have. This is something you guys credited to Aragorn, but again, it has roots in Gondor also. Gondor enabled Aragorn to do this critical thing. Groundwork.

Furthermore, despite Nom's brave attempt to describe Gondor's actions as "groundwork", the fact remains that this was not enough.

Of course it was not enough, other people of Middle-earth (including Arnorians) had critical roles too. But as things happend those critial things often relied upon Gondor.

Sure Isildur failed to destroy the Ring and this lead to Sauron rebuilding, but this doesn't have anything to do with the contributions made in the defeat. If I let a rabid chimpanzee out of his cage and then hunt him down, I contributed no less in stopping him only because I helped put him at large in the first place. I'll also point out that isildur could not have destroyed the Ring (request? - Letters!). No one could wittingly destroy it. The only way it was getting into the fires of Orodruin was by falling. Gondor was the biggest threat to Sauron in the Third Age and for good reason, they did inflict him with the most damage, short of Ring falling in the fire, in which Gondor played a huge part.

[Legolam]

Saruman's treacherous role was a big part in the events that lead to the defeat of Sauron Yes it was a big contribution - a negative one as I have already pointed out. And who put Saruman in the position to hinder the quest to destroy Sauron - Gondor.

Frodo who you credit to Arnor, claimed the Ring for himself and if not for a freak accident Sauron would have got the Ring Ah yes, but the fact remains that we have this "freak accident" at the centre of destroying Sauron. For once in this tournament, we shouldn't be reduced to arguments of intention - by which I mean arguing whether or not Bilbo MEANT to pick up the Ring. The fact remains that he did, he's a descendant of Arnor and therefore I can cite this as a major contribution to the defeat of Sauron.

contribution was greater though, because it's people held Sauron back Look at the question - "defeat of Sauron " - sure, Gondor did a good job holding back impending doom. But they DID NOT manage to defeat Sauron, not once in the Third Age. So I don't think this should come into this debate.

they did inflict him with the most damage When?

Let me come back to the central figures that Tolkien wrote about - the main characters in the book and in the quest to destroy the Ring.

1) Frodo
2) Aragorn
3) Gandalf

I think we can discount number three as being from either Arnor or Gondor ;). However, Aragorn and Frodo both have their feet firmly planted in Arnor. We can nitpick about small battles, but the ultimate contributions that lead DIRECTLY to Sauron's defeat were made by these two characters. I don't think I've read anything from Nom that can, in any way, question this. Maybe you could enlighten me with your theories as to how Gondor could possibly outshine the contributions of Frodo and Aragorn ...

[Legolam]

Right, I think that since Wonks and Snaga are obviously tied up (no pun ;)), Tookish is MIA and the closing time for this debate is tomorrow, I'd better do a closing post. If any of the Periaur feel aggrieved by this, well tough (or better yet, just post after :D).

The question was:

Which contributions to the defeat of Sauron in the TA is greater? Those of the Arnor and it's descendants or those of Gondor's?
The Periaur chose to argue that the contribution of Arnor to the defeat of Sauron in the third age was greater. To sum up our points:

1) The line of Valandil, aka Aragorn and the Rangers, were the lynchpin in defeating Sauron. You cannot underestimate their contribution to this quest. They protected the hobbits and the Shire for years (and with it, they protected the Ring). Aragorn then led Frodo and co to Rivendell, fortuitously saving Frodo's life in the process.

Aragorn led the Grey Company after the passing of Gandalf, drew Sauron into making a hasty decision by using the Palantir, and prevented the Corsairs from joining the battle of the Pelennor, saving the day. All in all, quite a contribution.

2) The hobbits are the surprise package of LOTR, the secret weapon to defeat Sauron. If we want to really boil LOTR down to its core, it was the hobbits that defeated Sauron. Snaga summed it up nicely:

The hobbits were subjects of Arnor who acknowledged the authority of the King at Fornost. Consider the contribution of these Arnorians!
a. Finding the Ring by Bilbo
Stirring up of the Ents by Merry and Pippin, so bringing about the defeat of Saruman, and thus the Ride of the Rohirrim
b. The Downfall of the Witch-King, at the hands of Merry
c. Saving the life of Faramir
d. The destruction of the Ring, and with it, the end of Sauron.


A powerful argument for the greater contribution of Arnor, I think you'll agree. But there's more. The Periaur have argued that, not only did Arnor make a greater contribution to the downfall of Sauron, but Gondor actually hindered this. Consider this:

1) Gondor installed Saruman at Isengard, blocking the path of the Grey Company, allowing Rohan to nearly be overrun by orcs and generally messing up plans to defeat Sauron (I draw your attention to another debate where the Periaur sucessfully argued that the White Council shouldn't have attacked Dol Guldur, somethign Saruman advocated for reasons of his own).

2) Boromir very nearly derailed the whole thing

3) Denethor's attempt at giving in to Sauron - now THAT'S one way to make a great contribution to defeating him!!

Nom has tried valiantly to argue that Gondor laid the groundwork for Sauron's defeat. However, it was just that - groundwork. They did nothing to actually DEFEAT Sauron (as it asks inthe original question) until the Arnor folk showed up. As I mentioned before, every crucial moment in the war against Sauron was orchestrated by someone from Arnor.

Therefore, in conclusion, the only answer to this question is that Arnor had by far the greatest contribution in defeating Sauron. So say the Periaur!!

:)

[Nóm]

Yes, Saruman was a major threat there at Orthanc. But as things ended up happening this threat was taken care of, and of Saruman at Orthanc the fellowship was broken and Aragorn and his crew followed after Merry and Pippin (who without Saruman would have been taken to Mordor instead), and there met up with Gandalf, went to Rohan and the battle of Helm's Deep was won, and they also gained the Palantir.

And even though Gondor had a hand in Saruman being a threat, we can look at Frodo's last minute threat to the quest. He claimed the Ring, reveiling everthing to Sauron. No less of a threat than was Saruman at Orthanc.

Aragorn himself took a monsterous risk in looking into the Palantir (what I call the biggest gamble in the history of Middle-earth - sincerely!). A threat.

I also think intention has no place in this debate.

The accident of Gollum falling with the Ring can also be credited Gondor in part. Sam and Frodo did two things which contributed to this.

1) Spared Gollum's life.
2)Got the Ring to Mt Doom.

Gondor:
1) Faramir also spared Gollum.
2)Gondor served as the decoy which allowed the hobbits to get the Ring to Mt Doom.

The point I was making with my statement about Frodo and the accident is just that Frodo put the quest in the great danger, just as you say Boromir did.

Gondor at the front against the Haradrim and men of the east during the third age protected the rest of Middle-earth, which allowed them to be able to contribute in the WotR.

That is part of how Gondor contributed, not just that defense which prevented Sauron from taking over Middle-eath, but that the defended could play their parts too.

Hmm.. already gave my arguements about Gondor's role in Aragorn's Palantir move, and paths of dead move, and also about the decoy role of Gondor.

Sure, Gondor alone did not defeat Sauron. Nor did Aragorn, or Frodo, or all the Arnorians together.


A powerful argument for the greater contribution of Arnor, I think you'll agree.

Why think I'd agree? I argued against all of those points in my first post (though I admit my arguement against point A was far-fetched... it had truth in it).

Faramir was saved after his role in the defeat. So the saving of his life did not aid the defeat.
Eowyn killed the witch-king. (bear in mind that Rohan is thanks to Gondor)
All played a role in the Ring's destruction.



But there's more. The Periaur have argued that, not only did Arnor make a greater contribution to the downfall of Sauron, but Gondor actually hindered this. Consider this:

1) Gondor installed Saruman at Isengard, blocking the path of the Grey Company, allowing Rohan to nearly be overrun by orcs and generally messing up plans to defeat Sauron (I draw your attention to another debate where the Periaur sucessfully argued that the White Council shouldn't have attacked Dol Guldur, somethign Saruman advocated for reasons of his own).

2) Boromir very nearly derailed the whole thing

3) Denethor's attempt at giving in to Sauron - now THAT'S one way to make a great contribution to defeating him!!


1 - Ah already talked about this.

2 - As did Pippin and Frodo. (Aragorn too if you count the Palantir gamble).

3 - Denethor failed to do better than he should have, who doesn't? Maybe Aragorn should have done better and Frodo wouldn't have been stabbed near the heart by the Morgul blade.

Nom has tried valiantly to argue that Gondor laid the groundwork for Sauron's defeat. However, it was just that - groundwork. They did nothing to actually DEFEAT Sauron (as it asks inthe original question) until the Arnor folk showed up.
Taken literally the only person who did something which defeated Sauron that time was Gollum.
Can you say Aragorn's palantir move was to defeat but Gondor's battle with those forces was not?

And where would Arnor have been without Gondor down there.

I'll just say in closing that... hmm... groundwork is the greatest contribution. Gondor was a great part of the foundation because of its defence, and things such as Isildur's curse, Rohan, and recording the writing on the ring are vital parts in the chains of events.

Also... sorry for being such weak opposition... I really care nothing for the topic and am no longer inspired just to win a debate officially.

[Gil-Galad]

The debate is closed.
Please do not post ANYTHING else after this post.
Now,let's the judges do their job.