Chapter XVII-Of the coming of Men into the West

[Gil-Galad]

CHAPTER 17



Of the coming of Men into the West


Chapter 17 from "The Silmarillion" is probably one of the most important ones in the book.
It is about Men,the Secondborn,those for whom Middle-earth is made.From the very begining of their existance there are many questions about them ,concerning their origin,opportunities for development and better life,questions which cannot be esily answered.

1.Long Felagund watched,and love for then stirred in his heart....

The first question is why exactly Finrod Felagund finds Men?Why not some not some of Feanor's sons or somebody else?
From the moment he saw them he loved them,but I wonder,if another elven king or prince met Men first,would he have the same feelings?Would he have the same attitude toward them?Were Men really so fascinating or Finrod loved them ,because of his big heart and soul.I wonder also whether Finrod foresaw that his fate is bounded by Men (Beren)?

2.But it was said afterwards among the Eldar that when Men awoke in Hildorien at the rising of the Sun the spies of Morgoth were watchful ,and tidings were soon brought to him,and this seemed to him so great a matter that secretely under shadow he himself departed from Angband,and went forth into Middle-earth,leaving to Sauron the command of the War.Of his dealings with Men the Eldar indeed knew nothing,at that time ,and learnt but little afterwards;but hat a darkness lay upon the hearts of Men (as the shadow of the Kinslaying and the Doom of Mandos lay upon the Noldor)They perceived clearly even in the people of the Elf-friends whom they first knew.To corrupt and destroy whatsoever arose new and fair was ever the chief desire of Morgoth;and doubtless he had this purpose also in his errand:by fear and lies to make Men the foes of the Eldar ,and bring them up out of the east against Beleriand.Bur this design was slow to ripen and was never wholly achieved;for Men (it is said)were at first very few in number,whereas Morgoth grew afraid of the growing power and union of the Eldar and came back to Angband,leaving behind ............

Who first found the Men?!Morgoth.Or if he is not the first to find them ,he is the first to pay them enough attention.But what did the Valar do?Why they didn't
make a contact with Men?Why they didn't search for Men as eagerly as they searched for the Firstborn?Why the Valar didnot help the Secondborn to escape from Evil.They did that for the Elves,they started a whole war for them.What about Men?Nothing special!
The question I'll ask now was actually part of one of Round 1' debate's topics.My question is :"Were Men treated in the wrong way by the Valar?Were they treated in unfair way??

3.Now the Green -elves of Ossiriand were troubled by the coming of Men,and when they heard...

For we desireno strangersin this land to break the peace in which we live.

Why actually the Green-elves afraid of Men?Was that the real reason?Or they were just afraid of their territories?The Noldor had come before them,and reduced their lands,and now with the new strangers that would happen agains.Was that and act of wisdom or an act stupidy and unreasonable fear?

4.Therefore the kings of the three houses of the Noldor seeing hope of strenght in the sons of Men,sent word that any of the Edain that wished might removed and come to dwell among the poeple.

It is interesting that exactly the Noldor have a positive attitude towards them.Was that so because of their prudance?And if it was so why the other elves(Sindar,Green-elves)didnot have it?

5.It is said that an all these matters none save Finrod Felagund took counsel with King Thingol,and he was ill pleased,both for that reason and because he was troubled by dreams,concerning the coming of Men,ere ever the first tidings of them were heard.Therefore he commanded that Men should take no lands to dwell in save in the north,and that the princes whom the served should be amswerable for all that they did;and he said:"Into Doriath shall no Men come while my realm lasts,not even those of the house of Beor who serve Finrod the Beloved.

Why?Why Thingol did that?Only because of his dreams?Or because he was insulted because of the fact that almost nobody took counsel with him and nobody showed respect?Did he do that because of his hurted pride?How can we characterize his decision?As a clever one or as an absolute stupidity?What did he missed from banning any contact with Men?

6.Nonetheless the Edain of old leaned swiftly of the Eldar all such aid and knowledge as they could receive ,and ther sons increased in wisdom and skill,untill they for surpassed all others of Mankind,who dwelt still east of the mountains and had not seen the Eldar,nor looked upon the faces that had beheld the Light of Valinor.

We saw that Men gained cognition about everything from the Eldar,but what do you think Elves received from their connecion with Men?

[Beleg]

1. The first question is why exactly Finrod Felagund finds Men?Why not some not some of Feanor's sons or somebody else?

Because It chanced that he was there, at the right moment on the right place.
If he hadn't been there the Men would have sooner or later, be discovered by the Feanorians anyway.

2.

From the moment he saw them he loved them,but I wonder,if another elven king or prince met Men first,would he have the same feelings?

I doubt that. Finrod Felagund was the most fairest and probably the most gentle and humble of the proud Noldor princes.
Any other Elven prince would have appreciated the arrival of Men, approved of their help, but wouldnt have formed as close ties as Felagund formed with the house of Beor. [And Indeed even in the Wanning of Numenor, It were the Beorean, who remained true to the Elves and the Valar]
[Turgon is an exception, but in his case the Will and Guidance of Ulmo also plays a great part].

The word forseeing is often used very lightly.
One can forsee many things happening, but all of them may not happen.
It was clear that Men would be good and close alies against Morgoth and thus would get intervined in the doom of Mandos.
Sure they were important.

3. Who first found the Men?!Morgoth.Or if he is not the first to find them ,he is the first to pay them enough attention.But what did the Valar do?Why they didn't
make a contact with Men?

Legal Questions. Some might have been answered in the Debate between Tolkienology and Outcasts here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11787) .
I have no logical explaination to explain or defend Valarian motives in this case.

4. Why actually the Green-elves afraid of Men?

Because men were hunters and feller's of trees. And these two acts the Liaquendi despised.

The Noldor had come before them,and reduced their lands,and now with the new strangers that would happen agains.Was that and act of wisdom or an act stupidy and unreasonable fear?

The Noldor never reduced the teritory of the Green Elves. Ossirand/Lindon was always under the control of Green Elves and they had their own rulers there.


5. It is interesting that exactly the Noldor have a positive attitude towards them.Was that so because of their prudance?And if it was so why the other elves(Sindar,Green-elves)didnot have it?

Prudence?
The reason is simple and well explained in Canonical texts.
Noldor wanted Warriors to strengthen their defence against Morgoth. Strong and Numerous men were just the right people to do it. They would naturally accept them gladly.
Sindar never interfered with Men [except in Doriath] and Green Elves wanted to be left alone is Ossir and live their life of Stealth.

6. We saw that Men gained cognition about everything from the Eldar,but what do you think Elves received from their connecion with Men?

The Knowledge of the sorrow of Natural Death.



***

[B]Additional Reading


1. HOME X, Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth

2. HOME XI, The later Quenta Silmarillion

3. HOME XI, Grey Annals

Myths Transformed might also be helpful.

[HelplessModAddi]

The answers to your first and second questions are both contained in the other. Finrod Felagund found Men because he was to form a bond with them that no other prince or king would have.

As for your third....

Tolkein, it seems, never intended the Silmarillion to be a "real" story of Middle-Earth, but rather a story in Middle-Earth, to which other Middle-Earthlings would look back to for legends and myths. It is a history within a history, and is thus naturally full exaggerations and assumptions. Or so I gather from reading the HOME series. For example, Tolkein wrote later on in his life that Sun and Moon were there from the beginning of Arda, not created by the Valar at the beginning of the First Age. Also that the idea of Men awaking "at the first rising of the Sun" was in fact a Numenorean myth, and Men had really awakened thousands of years earlier, probably during the March of the Eldar. Were am I going with this? Well, if Men awoke, then the Valar would know it. But they didn't want to tempt them by showing them glimpses of a land that they could never enter anyway. So it was best for men that they had no contact with Valinor, as was seen later in Numenor. The Valar had chained Melkor when men awoke, so there was no need then to intervene on their behalf. Also the Valar were perplexed by men, to whom Illuvatar had given "strange gifts," and they feared to interfere with their lives.

For questions four and five, see the first reply.

For question six: Most of what the Edain "gained" from the Eldar had in fact originally come to them from the Valar. The whole point, it seems, of letting Morgoth stay around for so long, was so the Valar could indirectly "groom" Mankind the way they had with the Eldar. Nonetheless, the two races did expose each other to some of their native traits, mostly their respective griefs regarding the world. The Eldar, being immortal, were grieved that everything around them passed away so quickly, whereas Men, well, died. But in exposure to each other the two races percieved how their respective curses could be regarded as blessings. In this way, their sorrows were turned to wisdom.

[FoolOfATook]

Tolkien indeed built the concept of the felix peccatum into his own mythology, when Iluvatar declares that even Melkor in his sin 'shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful'. And in a sense he also built in, or rather left a space for, the traditional story of the Fall of Man. There is no Garden of Eden for humans in The Silmarillion, but when humans do enter Middle-earth from the east all that is known about them to the elves who are imagined as the preservers of these traditions is that something dreadful has happened to them already, a 'darkness' which 'lay upon the hearts of Men' and which was connected with an unknown expedition of Morgoth: one could believe that Morgoth here is identical with Satan, and his expedition was to lure humanity into their 'original sin'. The Silmarillion then does not contradict Genesis; but it does offer an alternative view of the origin of sin, in a desire not for the 'knowledge of good and evil', but in the desires for creation, mastery, power.
-Tom Shippey, J.R.R. Tolkien: Author Of The Century

(The first fall of Man, for reasons explained, nowhere appears- Men do not need to come on the stage until all that is long past, and there is only a rumour that for a while they fell under the domination of the Enemy and that some repented.)
-J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter to Milton Waldman (Letter 131)

I don't really know the procedure for these sessions, but I figured these quotes might be of some use. I find them interesting, at any rate.