Outcasts' views on love?

[Nóm]

I posted this in another thread and decided it should have its own thread instead of cluttering up HLG's 'Who should be Elgee's Guy?' thread.

So I deleted the post to move it here. It is in reply to the fact that YayGollum asked some questions that didn't get much answer.

********************
'Heartache is the worst kind of ache. Why risk it?' Asks Yay. No one has really answered these things, I think.

Not only a risk of heartache but of becoming embittered and that will bring further heartache one day, and then another day, and another...

They say love can be a great thing, and that it enriches life and is like nothing else. It may be natural for even cold hearts to believe this or hope for it deep down, but that is the heart for you, it is never a friend to it's owner in the end.

Perhaps it's source of joy is none other than the ending of the pain it causes.

Surely I am not the first to think that.

Being in love is nothing but to fuzzy a mind, cause need for satisfaction, and make one soft and so more vulnerable to be victimized further by the heart.

****************

So, what do you guys think of love, or of being in love? Have you ever been in love?

What do you think of the heart?

[Talierin]

Love is good for your mind and heart (and yes I am in love right now)... but you should also be careful with it. I think people really need to stop throwing it around like they do. Love is not a game...

Anyways, I think I can safely say that my boyfriend is one of my best friends... and that means the world to me. Love without friendship is not love at all

[YayGollum]

Well, it looks like Outcasts already know what I think about it. Yay for our Honorary Outcast thinking to help me out with answering my questions! This evil Talierin moderator has decided not to answer my question. She just writes that it's good for you. Can't think of any way to explain that? Looks like my views have been achingly well explained right about now. I guess I'm an evil and ignorant person. Need explanations to understand other people's views. Silly me.

To answer the Confusticated (Nom) lady's questions --->

Well, you answered the first question for me.

No. Ick.

It's good for pumping blood. That's about it. :rolleyes:

[Dragon]

I think most of the things said in noms post (not sure who the original writers were, a little confuzzled) are very good points and questions, most of which can b answered with "well, if love's as good as they say it is...."

that is all.

*has been using "that is all" a lot*:D :rolleyes: :D :rolleyes:

[YayGollum]

Am I an achingly ignorant person for not understanding that explanation? Is what's supposed to be on the other end of those dots something that's achingly well known already?

[Dragon]

*sigh*

yay, they are dots bc there IS nothing on the other side....yet, unless u want to end it, do you? I have no problem w/ it if u do

[YayGollum]

Well, if love's as good as they say it is...there must not be much hope left for the human race. :D

[Dragon]

thankyou, yay, for completely corrupting my post, if you will excuse me, I have some sulking to do....or maybe I'm just perverted, and no one else finds that ...offensive?:rolleyes: :o

[Annushka]

Love feels good while it lasts. When it ends you feel horrible, empty and tired. I hate that. And I hate the constant fear of losing the person you love. That can drive one crazy.

Being in love is nothing but to fuzzy a mind, cause need for satisfaction, and make one soft and so more vulnerable to be victimized further by the heart.

Exactly

Anyway, luckily (or maybe not:D) for me I`m not in love. Sometimes I think I`ll never be. That's kinda scary.

And to try to answer Yay's question - maybe people still risk the heartache cause they are programmed to:D Programmed by nature. We have to be in love some time.

[Dragon]

ppl risk heartache bc sum ppl have morals about only having sex when they are in love, and if no one has sex, the species wont continue...so wether love is real, or just so that we will reproduce, I think shush is right, we are programmed 2 do it

[Nóm]

I also think that is why people risk it. It is natural, an inclination of the heart.

But here I speak of being in love with a person. Not just 'love' in general, of which there are many kinds.

I guess that the natural purpose of being in love is to keep two people together long enough to raise kids. :D

For me the chance of falling in love is more scary that the thought that I will never be in love again. It is a thing I actively worry about and have taken measures to avoid. It is interesting, but beyond my comprehesion, that someone would fear that they will never fall in love. I can only half understand it.

The problem is that when you start to feel the beginings of falling in love... those little moments, or that quickening of the heart that happens sometimes, or finding you can not stop thinking about the person... it is too pleasant. Even if one does not want to fall in love, that mindset becomes clouded when these feelings come on, and these feelings can bring out a very deep optimism that tells your mind 'Shut up! All will be well and paradise on Earth and blah blah blah' when your mind says 'knock it off heart! It'll just bring pain!'. At least this is the case with me.

Others may 'risk it' for other reasons. 1) they may have never felt pain because of being in love, and so not understand how the great the risk is, or 2) something else I can't think of. :D

Rather than ask 'why risk it' I'd ask 'Is it worth the risk'?

Some will swear that it is, and others that it is not. And even while I am one who swears that it is not worth it, I find (due to the confusticated heart, no doubt) that deep down I can not believe it, or maybe don't want to believe it.

Being in love is the best feeling I have ever experienced, and also the longest sorrow and among the most severe stabs of heartache I have ever known. Looking back on it, the good feeling was not worth the pain, the price was too high. But what might have been worth the pain is that it changed me, as I learned and experienced a lot with it. But maybe even that was not worth it, maybe it just aged and embittered me for life. Has anyone else ever thought this? Anyone else bitter? Anyone been bitter but had that change?

So, is it worth it?

And an interesting note: :D I have recently found myself on the edge of falling in love again and it has confusticated my mind, and surely if not for this I wouldn't have looked twice when I read Yay's post in that other thread, but have skimmed it over with a nod.

Love without friendship is not love at all

Surely not what I would call true love.


There was a new reply as i typed this post up:
ppl risk heartache bc sum ppl have morals about only having sex when they are in love, and if no one has sex, the species wont continue...so wether love is real, or just so that we will reproduce, I think shush is right, we are programmed 2 do it

I would say that lust happens so that we reproduce, and being in love keeps the parents together long enough for the baby to grow up.

But this is a point I hadn't considered here, that some people risk the heartache because their morals wont allow them to have sex with someone they do not love. So for those people, if they don't find love they wont be able to... hmm... have children.

[Talierin]

Originally posted by Nóm
Surely not what I would call true love.


What is your definition of true love?


I suspect that the reason why so many people are afraid of "getting burned" in love is because most of the world doesn't even understand what love really is, and therefore treat it like something it is not. Love isn't just a starter of the reproduction cycle, it's so much more than that, which people seem to have forgotten...

[Nóm]

Well I'm having trouble trying to define it. I guess it would just be love, rather than being in love or mere physical attraction, or any other thing that people lable as love that is not really love.

I guess, to genuinely care and respect eachother.

I can't speak for anyone else of course, but for me the fear is of falling in love with someone that I will want to spend my life with but he will not feel the same about me. Now if the person feels the same, surely it is worth it. Even to have a week together or maybe only one day, is something I imagine is priceless.

I think that even if you love a man and nothing bad happens, you can still have a broken heart over the fact he doesn't love you.
I would say that if a person doesn't understand what love is, that is because they have never experienced it, for which they can not be blamed.

[Eriol]

Can a non-Outcast intrude?

The premise behind the discussion so far is that "if it causes pain, it is bad". Do you all agree with that? Can't you imagine something both painful and good? (or conversely, something pleasurable and bad).

I would say more, if I was sure that a non-Outcast can intrude...

[Rhiannon]

Hi Eriol- I certainly don't mind you popping in. :)

I think the kind of love that is 'bad' isn't really love- it's a farce created by media and pop culture, and just as shallow. It limits love to pretty people in pretty surroundings with perfect clothes and perfect hair and makes it a piece of merchandise. The modern world has been trying to sell 'love', along with happiness, contentment, and success, all in a pretty package with a one year warranty and the smell of new car.

This same media that has undercut our morals and replaced them with brand names has destroyed our understanding what love is.

There are lots of kinds of love. There is love between friends, love between family, the unconditional, forgiving love of the Bible, and there is 'romantic love', eros, which is really lust. 'True love', the love the should be between husband and wife, should be all four; because marriage is a partnership, and there should be friendship, and trust, and forgiveness, and yes, lust.

But the modern world has taken 'love' and made it temporary, with the 'dating game', with the 50% divorce rate. It's made it cheap. That is the kind of love that causes hurt.

[Dragon]

rhi is very good at explaining things...

eriol, I'm sure its fine to "intrude" as long as you have something worthwile 2 say

as to your question, things can be pleasurable and painful at the same time. but what most ppl are worried about is the pain that comes afterwards, but I have noticed nom pointing out the worry about wether they love you back. as I see it (I have my own beleif system set up) if the love is not shared, it's not really love.

Rather than ask 'why risk it' I'd ask 'Is it worth the risk'?

I really don't know nom, I would like 2 assume it is, but I beleive that I'm too young for love to really be a part of my life, and that I have not experienced all types of love. I have had friendship love, and parent/child love, but not male/female love

[Nóm]

The premise behind the discussion so far is that "if it causes pain, it is bad".
I think it is rather questioning that in regards to love, not making that statement.

What makes it worth the risk?

Eriol if you were deeply in love with a woman who did not love you, would it be worth it? Perhaps. But suppose you were young and stupid and it tore you apart and made you feel like you were not good enough for her or any woman who is good enough for you? Would you not question it then?

What if you thought that no woman would ever love you... would you not try to avoid falling in love?

Have you ever loved a woman who loved you the same? If so, then I admit fully, you know what makes it worth the risk more than I do.

And if not, do you trust it will happen one day? And If so, isn't it the heart that causes you to?

if the love is not shared, it's not really love.


Maybe not. But all the same it is being in love. Which is why falling in love is a risk.

[Eriol]

Thanks for the welcome, ladies :) (Is Dragon a lady?)

I agree with Rhiannon; "love" is a badly misused word nowadays. But we all know that True Love (with caps on :) ) is something different, it is NOT a piece of merchandise. Knowing what a thing is NOT is some knowledge.

Dragon, I asked if something can be pleasurable and bad, not pleasurable and painful... and conversely, whether something can be painful and good. For if we say yes to these questions, then love can bring great pain -- and still be good. Lack of love can help us avoid great pain -- and still be bad. This question is therefore very important in assessing the "risks of love".

I think the greatest risk is not to love; for the greatest blessing is to love, no matter how much pain you get from it.

Let me see Nóm's questions:

Originally posted by Nóm
Eriol if you were deeply in love with a woman who did not love you, would it be worth it? Perhaps. But suppose you were young and stupid and it tore you apart and made you feel like you were not good enough for her or any woman who is good enough for you? Would you not question it then?

The answer to that first question is a very definite yes. (Something like that may be happening right now).

The first time I was in love with a woman it ended up badly (or else I'd be married by now ;) ). It tore me apart. But these feelings of inadequacy were never felt. You see, I don't think that a woman should love me because of my merits; just as I don't think I love any woman because of her merits. "Merits" are quite irrelevant when it comes to love -- in my opinion. So her refusal to love me was not based on my lack of merits, or so I thought.

What if you thought that no woman would ever love you... would you not try to avoid falling in love?

And this is a very important question, which I asked myself years ago. My answer, then and now, is "no". For I don't think that we love in order to be loved; I don't think that this is the benefit of love. I think that the benefit of love is love itself. Loving a woman, even if she does not love you -- perhaps especially if she does not love you -- is a great blessing.

(That "especially" is because love should not be based on rewards, on "what you get from it" -- in my opinion :) )

Have you ever loved a woman who loved you the same? If so, then I admit fully, you know what makes it worth the risk more than I do.

I don't know. I once thought I did. That is really a question that should be asked to the woman, not to me... a complicated, unresolved issue in my life.

And if not, do you trust it will happen one day? And If so, isn't it the heart that causes you to?


I trust it will happen some day, because I don't think that God would have instilled that desire in me for no reason. But I may be wrong ;). I will keep on trusting, though. God is very unpredictable :D; He may have something different for me in His sleeve... But I guess this says something important -- it is not "the heart", which is usually interpreted as emotions, that leads me to that trust; it is my soul. My soul acknowledges my emotions, and encourages them.

I love :) the definition of Kierkegaard -- "to love is to help someone to love God; to be loved is to be helped by someone to love God". This is a very "hard-to-understand" definition if you don't believe in God...

And the best description of love is 1 Corinthians 13. I'll try to get it and post it here.

[Dragon]

sorry about that eriol, I'm bad at quoting unless I cut and paste, but my answer is still yes, to both of them...

and I am a lady....well....sort of.... I'm 14...:D :rolleyes: it depends on ur definition of lady, but lets not get into that...:D :D :D

[Eriol]

This is St. Paul on love... check also Gibran Khalil Gibran on the Prancing Pony :).

If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing.

3 And if I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor, and if I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not love, it profits me nothing.

4 Love is patient, is kind: love envies not, deals not perversely, is not puffed up,

5 Is not ambitious, seeks not his own, is not provoked to anger, thinks no evil:

6 Rejoices not in iniquity, but rejoices with the truth:

7 Bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never falls away: whether prophecies shall be made void or tongues shall cease or knowledge shall be destroyed.

9 For we know in part: and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child. But, when I became a man, I put away the things of a child.

12 We see now through a glass in a dark manner: but then face to face. Now I know in part: but then I shall know even as I am known.

13 And now there remain faith, hope, and love, these three: but the greatest of these is love.

[YayGollum]

Ick. I had to memorize that thing a while ago. Not fun. oh well. Have you not seen the little description of this guild on the main page, Eriol person? You are an Outcast already. Everyone's welcome. sorry about that. Anyways, Ick. Love is bad. Maybe I'm just an achingly stubborn person who won't allow himself to see the light, but at least I won't get burned by it. Your question about things that can be painful and good at the same time makes no sense to me. Even if it can be good, there's still the fact that it can be painful. Am I just a little too fanatical about my self-preservation? That's in human nature, too, isn't it?

[Eriol]

No, I haven't -- I found this thread from "Who's Online" -- it's been months since I looked at the main page :eek:. But thanks for your welcome, Yay; Outcasthood is something coveted by most people once in a while ;).

Self-preservation is good; avoiding pain is also good, most of the time. It is in that "most of the time" that the problem lies. You have to think which of the two avenues is worse, not more painful. Else we simply emulate Garfield :D; we hate mondays, we love lasagnas, we can't see our feet, etc. etc. Great for a cartoon; very attractive when it is just in your mind; but not really good in real life.

Sometimes pain is good for us.

Sometimes avoiding pain is bad for us.

Is love one of these times? That is the question. But simply saying that "love causes pain" does not answer the question...

Oh well. I gotta sleep.

P.S. As for memorizing that, there is a brazilian rock group (NOT Christian rock, mind you) that made a music out of that -- it is great! Very beautiful, and mixed with some other outstanding love poems too. But it is in Portuguese, sorry about that :(

[Annushka]

I think that all these prove one more time. We all are afraid to be rejected, to be hurt. But we are still ready for that. I know I am. I`m not going to do anything to prevent falling in love only because I might get hurt. Actually I`m not going to do anything at all about all this thing. When it comes, it comes. I just accept it.

if the love is not shared, it's not really love.

I didn`t get it. Why isn`t it?

[Kailita]

Oh my. Kailita is not very pleased with love at the moment. But then again, Kailita is caught up in the angst of the moment and should probably not be posting about such things at this time. Kailita also should quit stopping about herself in third person.

Hmm. Okay. Love. Love can change the world...but I take it we're talking about romantic love here, which is different. Yay is right, to some extent. Heartache is the worst kind of ache, I can vouch for that. So why risk it?: Because it's worth it in the end. Because it's worth it when it's real, when it's true, when you're not just screwing around for a feeling or a high or an upped-status because you're dating so-and-so. Love is more than just a fuzzy feeling or your heart turning over, though sometimes - a lot of times - those are involved. But love...real, True Love...is a sacrifice. Putting the other person's happiness before your own. Caring about the other person more than yourself. It takes a real level of maturity on both parties.

Originally posted by Rhiannon
I think the kind of love that is 'bad' isn't really love- it's a farce created by media and pop culture, and just as shallow. It limits love to pretty people in pretty surroundings with perfect clothes and perfect hair and makes it a piece of merchandise. The modern world has been trying to sell 'love', along with happiness, contentment, and success, all in a pretty package with a one year warranty and the smell of new car.

This same media that has undercut our morals and replaced them with brand names has destroyed our understanding what love is.

...the modern world has taken 'love' and made it temporary, with the 'dating game', with the 50% divorce rate. It's made it cheap. That is the kind of love that causes hurt.
Amen, amen, and amen to all of that. You hit it right on.
Originally posted by Eriol
I love the definition of Kierkegaard -- "to love is to help someone to love God; to be loved is to be helped by someone to love God".
That is absolutely beautiful. :) And the passage from 1 Corinthians is profound. (As soon as I saw this thread, I thought, Hmm...Eriol should jump into this... and here you are! ;))

I'm having one of the biggest struggles I've ever had with love right now, and it centers around loving and losing. For the longest time, I was deadset on being eaten alive by anguish and despair over this. I didn't care about becoming bitter...I wanted it. I wanted to become cynical and just forget about the whole thing. It just hurt too much. But then I realized that I had a choice. I could either sink into this hole of depression...or I could hold my head up high, rise up, and keep hoping. Eriol...I don't know your complete story...but you seem to be a picture of that, to me. And even though it still hurts, that's how I want to be.

People have been telling me that it's better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all. I couldn't stand that phrase. They didn't know...they couldn't understand that dull ache in my core that never seemed to subside. But I was thinking today...and it was worth it. I would rather be dealing with the pain now than to have never met him.

Originally posted by Talierin
Love without friendship is not love at all
I very much agree with that. Nóm disagreed, but defined true love as genuinely caring and respecting each other. Don't true friends genuinely care for and respect each other?

[Eriol]

Kailita, I'm so sorry... the last time we talked about this was on that thread of "women being treated as men", remember? You said that you had had no "close encounters" with love, if I recall correctly. And now you have.

If you love him, keep on loving him. Get ready to remain loving him in your 80th birthday. Don't let that die. Pain will come -- it is part of the job description -- but worse than pain is lack of love.

You will love other people, rest assured. And perhaps, you will find one who loves you as well. Only don't think that this is the prize, for it is not; the prize is love itself. Once you have it, you have it all. Check that Gibran Khalil Gibran thread (have you already? I don't remember).

God bless you. Remember to love Him as well -- that is part of the prize :). Loving the beloved is, in a very important way, loving God. Go to His lap -- He will help you to deal with the pain. Pain is "manageable"; lack of love is not.

[kohaku]

I have found that many great things in life are risky, love included. Both the good and the bad that come out of love are, to me, life-enriching. And of course, experiencing pain makes pleasurable times seem even more wonderful.

[Nóm]

I very much agree with that. Nóm disagreed, but defined true love as genuinely caring and respecting each other. Don't true friends genuinely care for and respect each other?

I did not disagree with it. Yes friends care about and respect eachother.

Talierin said 'Love without friendship is not love at all' and to that I said 'not true love'. I mean that it would not really be love, even though some may call it that.

[Talierin]

So in other words you'd have it so you weren't friends with your lover? :confused:

Friendship is the beginning, the base of love. You cannot have it any other way, or 'love' doesn't last.

[Nóm]

No, there has been a misunderstanding and I didn't know it until now.

Talierin, you said:
Love without friendship is not love at all


And I said:
Surely not what I would call true love.

I am agreeing here that 'love' without friendship is not really love.

Not saying that love with friendship is not true love.

Sorry for being unclear. You guys must have thought I was a fool! :o

[Talierin]

OHHHHHH! ok! I got you now! :eek:

[YayGollum]

Ick. Too much agreeing going on in here. Or maybe I'm just too achingly stubborn for my own good. I like to think so. Falling in love, finding true love, things like that. Not necessary. Use brains, not feelings. If there's the possibility of pain, why not stay away from it? Because pain can be good? That doesn't make it necessary. Be safe. You don't have to be evil and cynical and pessimistic to be safe.

[The-Elf-Herself]

Yeah, safe holds great appeal to me. I only use feelings in writing and that sort of thing. However, lots of people aren't like that. Never being run to tell other people how to run their lives, I say, if you want to find love, real honest love, go for it! Just don't expect me to go looking with you. I'll be over in a corner with my laptop and a few books, talking with someone equally safe who also doesn't want to mess with love. I mean, I'm not saying that I'll never fall in love, but the odds are stacked in my favor(adjusts her stack of odds, people keep saying they're going to fall over one day). And I'm NOT a pessimist, although I am a cynic, in the definition of a scarred idealist who doesn't trust the world in general because she's seen what that does to people.

[Dragon]

~* waalks by jam and inconspicuously nudges the odds w/ her foot, causing them to lean, precariously close 2 falling over*~

oops~ sorry jam!:D :D :D

[The-Elf-Herself]

*quickly fixes stack and then super glues each odd to the other.* Hah!:D

[YayGollum]

That's pure evil. Anyways, why not tell other people how to run their lives? Even though that's not how I'd put it. I like to think that I'm just trying to help. oh well. Got it. Everyone who knows that love is bad and wants to stay safe should just hide in a corner and not try to talk sense into the crazy types that seem to me to be tragically ignorant.

[The-Elf-Herself]

Yeah, that's it. Typically the tragically ignorant types don't want to listen, I'm not going to waste my breath. All they seem to want to do is make us safe types abandon safety. And yeah, since you are quite forcefully suggesting, in a way you are hoping to have a say in their lives.

[Eriol]

What do you think of safety in raising a family, oh elite of the brutally honest? Or rather, what is the safety in not raising a family?

Don't you think love is, well, desirable if you want to raise a family?

[YayGollum]

Got it. Please excuse me for caring. *bawls* I don't mind wasting my breath when I'm not sure that that's what I'll always be doing. Anyways, why worry about raising a family when that's not necessary, either? Easy solution ---> Deal with the family you're already in. Why bring more into it? Responsibility? Ick. No need to add more, right?

[The-Elf-Herself]

Kidses? *shudders* I don't like little kidses. Not one bit. I don't have any patience. I'm planning on being a Big Sister to kids over the age of ten. Even in the unlikelihood that I get married, I DON'T want kids. At all.

[Rhiannon]

I think true love is never a bad thing. I think that pinning your whole life on finding the right person and getting married is a bad thing. So don't bother going and looking for it, because you'll just wear yourself out- sit back, and it it's out there eventually it will come to you.

I plan to wait for it while traveling Europe and writing, is all.

And if you do want to have a family, love is absolutely essential- but you should have love and then the family, not the other way 'round.

[Kailita]

Originally posted by Rhiannon
I think true love is never a bad thing. I think that pinning your whole life on finding the right person and getting married is a bad thing. So don't bother going and looking for it, because you'll just wear yourself out- sit back, and it it's out there eventually it will come to you.

And if you do want to have a family, love is absolutely essential- but you should have love and then the family, not the other way 'round.
True true true.

Jam, I was wondering when you were going to get into this. I think you're one of those good, practical people who won't go tumbling into horrible situations over "love" that really isn't, but when it's the right time you'll know, and it'll be good and right and not something that you have to get yourself all bent out of shape over. And that's good. :D Very you.

Nom, I get you now. ;) Sorry about that.

And Eriol...thanks. A lot.

[Annushka]

Originally posted by YayGollum
That's pure evil. Anyways, why not tell other people how to run their lives?

Because most people don`t ever follow one's advices:D In the end you feel stupid. After wasting all that energy, words feelings etc, the person to whom all that was addressed does what he wants to do. I NEVER give advices. I just suggest my opinion never trying to convince the person that I know what's right for him.

I think that pinning your whole life on finding the right person and getting married is a bad thing. So don't bother going and looking for it, because you'll just wear yourself out- sit back, and it it's out there eventually it will come to you.

Rhia, you're SO right. I really don`t get people moaning all the time about being lonely, loveless bla bla. There are million other things in life that make sence, fill your life and make you happy.

[BranMuffin]

Love is many splendid thing. Love lifts us up where we belong. All you need is love. Has anyone else seen Moulin Rouge?

[YayGollum]

No. Ick. Anyways, why would I feel stupid about tossing what I think at someone when they just ignore me? Wouldn't I think that they were being stupid since I know I'm right? oh well. I said that I was just trying to help them out. There's no reason to feel stupid about that.

[Sador]

To quote my favourite band of the early eighties:
"Love will get you like a case of anthrax
And that's something I don't want to catch."
But unfortunately as with any virus I don't seem to have any choice in the matter.:(

[Kailita]

Originally posted by BranMuffin
Love is many splendid thing. Love lifts us up where we belong. All you need is love. Has anyone else seen Moulin Rouge?
I love that movie. It makes you really really want to believe in love and get caught up in it, even though the story ends in tragedy. Gah. I'm not too hopeless of a romantic, but it makes me cry every time. :rolleyes:

Sador, aren't you married...?

[YayGollum]

People told me that the movie was achingly unintelligent. oh well. If you think it's that good just because of nasssty love type things, why should I care enough to see it? :confused: oh well. What was I talking about? Ah, yes. Why do people say that they can't help falling onto the evil cactus that is love? You have brains. Avoid it.

[Kailita]

Sometimes the only way to avoid the so-called "evil cactus" is to avoid all members of the opposite sex period. After all, you don't always choose who you're going to fall for...unless you're on a reality TV show. :rolleyes: And all-out avoiding the opposite gender for the rest of your life would be rather cumbersome and quite unbeneficial, don't you think?

[Dragon]

yes, K, I've tried 2 explain this 2 him b4, he doesn't listen

oh god....

D-ish thinks she is falling in love and she is freaking out. she is not prepared 4 this. she is not even allowed 2 date yet...:eek: :o :eek: :o :eek: :o

[The-Elf-Herself]

Aw, poor D.

Yeah, that's my one flaw Kai. I refuse to avoid members of the opposite gender, because they can sometimes be capable of interesting conversation, although mostly that's limited to online stuff, all the guys I talk to in real life are kind of...boring. So there is the slightest chance I might fall prey to that, but like I said, it's highly improbable. *pats her stack of odds*

[Dragon]

but, but, but....

~*looks piteously at her mess of odds slewn across the floor*~

not fair! I wasn't ready 4 this.....I mean, there's this happy feeling inside, but what happens when it goes away? I'll just b.....empty, like b4, onlyl worse, and.....

~*looks at her odds again...*~

well, it is fun feeling the way I do, I'm not sure it's love, but I can't think of what else it could b...Ijust don't want it to go away:( :rolleyes: :o

[Kailita]

Don't worry, D. Rhian and I are your big sisters. You're not officially "in love" until we say you can be. :p;)

But on a serious note...really don't worry about it too much. The happy feeling is probably attraction. There's nothing wrong with that. If he's a nice guy and you guys have stuff in common and can talk easily, then there's no problem with it. Enjoy it. You can't live your life fearing the worst...that's no way to live. And remember that your identity consists of more than just who you're attracted to. If something does happen and you go your separate ways, you will still be the same person that you were before. And I really don't think anything traumatic is going to happen to you that'll make you bitter or change your outlook on love for the rest of your life. You're 14. That kind of stuff doesn't happen until you're at least 15. :rolleyes:;)

Hey, I want a stack of odds, too! *Is jealous*

*Thinks that Jam has plenty of odds to share...*

Life would be boring if we didn't have guy input on things. The male mindset, though incredibly shallow at times, can also be amazingly deep. Very valuable.

[Dragon]

You're 14. That kind of stuff doesn't happen until you're at least 15.

I know, I was just saying something like that earlier in this thread. I've been attracted 2 ppl b4, and this is a different feeling, totally different.

~*thinks that 14 isn't very different from 15, but the limit has 2 b sumwhere...*~

~*sigh*~ K, u can have some of my odds, if ur willing 2 clean them up.... I've no use 4 them anymore...besides, jam glued all hers together, u wont b able 2 get any:D :rolleyes:

[YayGollum]

I asked why people say that they can't help falling onto the evil cactus that is love. You didn't answer me. Besides saying that it's hard or you can't. Ick. Anyways, I don't know what kind of brainless people you're talking about, Kailita person, who'd have to avoid people. It is possible to be sociable with all kinds of people and not fall on cacti. It's not that unbelievable. People have brains. Why do they forget that?

[Kailita]

You're 14. That kind of stuff doesn't happen until you're at least 15.
Heh, I was being sardonic when I said that. I think when people get really hurt would probably be in their 20s-30s, because then there's more commitment and it probably hurts a lot more. But, I don't know, highschool relationships can be brutal and sometimes leave pretty deep scars...

Originally posted by D
I know, I was just saying something like that earlier in this thread. I've been attracted 2 ppl b4, and this is a different feeling, totally different.
Hmm...can you explain it? That might not help at all. I've only loved deeply once, so I don't have too much experience and haven't really analysed all the feelings. :rolleyes: But it might help a little anyway. *Shrug*

*Happily helps herself to some of D's odds...is willing to clean them up* :D *Yanks and pries on Jam's odds, trying to unstick a couple of the top ones...* :rolleyes:

Edit: Originally posted by Yay
I asked why people say that they can't help falling onto the evil cactus that is love. You didn't answer me. Besides saying that it's hard or you can't. Ick. Anyways, I don't know what kind of brainless people you're talking about, Kailita person, who'd have to avoid people. It is possible to be sociable with all kinds of people and not fall on cacti. It's not that unbelievable. People have brains. Why do they forget that?
Maybe the only answer to that is that you really can't help falling in love. You'll never know unless you fall in love yourself, will you, Yay? ;) Or if you're tempted to and then beat the odds and don't. If that ever happens, then I will believe that it is possible to keep yourself from falling in love. But until then, you've got no solid proof for me because you've never been through it yourself. :p

[YayGollum]

Oh, and the fact that you can't think of many people who happen to be smart enough to avoid love means that you win? Ha! People can't help falling in love? That's just craziness. Or do you really think that it messes with people's brains so much that they can forget about self-preservation? *hides*

[Kailita]

Perhaps when people fall in love, they see it as more important than self-preservation. I doubt you would understand that, Yay - being your usual cautious, selfish self :D - but I think it's true. ;)

[Sador]

I'm divorced Kailita.
And Yay falling in love has nothing to do with brains. It requires emotions. Its only when it goes wrong that it hurts. If you want to spend your life hiding from love because you want to avoid pain you can. But what kind of life would that be? I think it would be torture.

[The-Elf-Herself]

*hugs stack of odds* Hey, hands off! Only for devout members of the love is bad brigade. Getcher own!:D

Hmmm, cautious people are interesting. I like to play tricks on them, because I trust my superly cool enigmatic personality to hide me(and it works 99.9% of the time). *laughs maniacally* You're first on the list Yay. One day in the future you will be met with an in-person irrational act of kindness by meeee. You have been warned. :D

I've seen how love can push past common sense. My parents never wanted to get married or fall in love, never liked to date or any of that stuff and now twentysomething years later...the rest is history. Except somehow I get this feeling that maybe they would have been better off if they hadn't. My family is really...interesting. Not going any further, but let's say that's helped shape me on my opinion on love. That's another thing. Yay, your parents are divorced, aren't they? I wonder if that effects us love is bad people more. We can see how it messes with people. Maybe that's just nuts. I know it's made me very suspicious of the stuff and very untrusting of pretty much everyone.

I think it would be a nice life, without that sort of love. I mean, I might feel a little weird and people would give me weird looks, but at least I'd never have to go through what my parents went through.

[Kailita]

I'm sorry, Sador. :( But all your points were very true. Love requires emotions, and if you go through life hiding from love, what kind of a life is that?

Erk. *Is banned from Jam's odds* :o *Grabs a couple more of D's* :p

Originally posted by Jam
You're first on the list Yay. One day in the future you will be met with an in-person irrational act of kindness by meeee. You have been warned.
I hope I'm there to see that. :D

Are your parents divorced, Jam? I didn't know that. Hmm...I see how that might affect Yay's and your outlook on love, by looking at your parents.

I'm not going to tell anyone that they have to fall in love. That's just absurd. Certainly there are people - great people - who never do, and that's not a bad thing. And better to stay single than force love, definitely. I just don't want anybody to miss out on something wonderful that could be out there. You don't have to go looking for it. Just keep an open mind. :)


And you guys really don't know how hard it was for me to write all of that, especially considering that I saw the last of my friends - the one that I was really starting to fall for - for the last time yesterday. :( So yeah, I'm in the heartache stage now, and I'll tell you the truth that it does hurt. But it was worth it. And everything I said up there is still true, very important, and I firmly believe it despite the pain. So I wanted to share it with you guys. :)

[Rhiannon]

I'm sorry, sisi! *hugs Kaia*

I know that my opinion the real love- when it's done right- comes from the fact that my parents really, really love each other. When people are hurt by other people, I don't blaim love- I blaim human nature for being dumb.

[The-Elf-Herself]

My parents aren't divorced, but they're polar opposites and they've been fighting since I was seven. That sort of ruined the whole 'revering your parents thing', I grew up knowing exactly how flawed they were. I ended up living with my grandparents for a year while they tried to sort things out and then lived with my Mom for half a year, and then they tried to get a divorce but stayed together for 'the good of the kids'(that means my brother and I :rolleyes: ). It's painful sometimes to see them together, because they have so little in common and there's none of that love stuff there, the whole family thing is so we'll have a stable life. Although it's a bit late to reassure kids who've been staying at different relatives that things are different, I guess I appreciate the effort and the commitment. It just makes me very cynical about love, because the emotion can be so fleeting and it really seems a lot better just to avoid the stuff; it can be messed up and misread so easily and the fights that still occur pretty regularly can stress a kid out when she's caught in the middle

[Kailita]

Wow, Jam. You've been through a lot...not to mention your parents. But...that makes a whole lot more sense now, where your ideas are rooted in and everything. But I have to say that even if your parents fight, I really respect them (even though I've never met them :rolleyes: ) for staying together like that for your sake and your brother's. So many people get selfish around divorcing times and completely forget about their kids or abandon them or whatnot. So your parents really do love you a lot.

Originally posted by Jam
It just makes me very cynical about love, because the emotion can be so fleeting and it really seems a lot better just to avoid the stuff; it can be messed up and misread so easily and the fights that still occur pretty regularly can stress a kid out when she's caught in the middle
Yup. Love isn't supposed to be easy. That's why it has to be based on more than just a feeling or an emotion. And hopefully, if it's strong enough, it will get through the arguments. Nobody said that people who love each other can't argue. ;)

[Lomelinde]

Originally posted by YayGollum
Oh, and the fact that you can't think of many people who happen to be smart enough to avoid love means that you win? Ha! People can't help falling in love? That's just craziness. Or do you really think that it messes with people's brains so much that they can forget about self-preservation? *hides*

again...not sure if I'm allowed to post here...but oh well

I happen to have fallen in love and let me explain it to you. I've spent almost my whole life avoiding "love" and pretty much ignoring the existance of the opposite even tho I interact with them a LOT. As it turns out, I fell in love with the ONE guy I KNEW I would never like that way. Figure out that one. "The only cure for love is to love more" Sure, people can be smart and controll their emotions to avoid love and all the unpleasant things that may arise from it...but when true love comes your way, you have no choice. Or actually, your choice is: accept it and gain from it, or deny it and live in misery. Anyways, I hope that helps clear some things up.

[YayGollum]

Well, I'm not confused about anything. But then, when true love shows up you have no choice? Or at least, I only have the choice to be miserable for forever. That's the only thing I don't get. What's so miserable about not falling on a cactus? oh well. I gots to break things up.

Kailita person ---> I understand the crazy people who senselessly fall in love. I don't understand why they'd still feel like letting it happen after I warned them or they've found out how evil it is for themselves, but oh well. I don't get why anyone would say that I happen to be hiding from the evil cactus that is love. I'm just not stupid enough to fall on it. No offense. People who have must not have noticed the possibility of pain. I'm trying to point that out to people. Yay me for at least trying to educate people, right? :rolleyes: Anyways, I have an open mind. It just happens to be closed on this particular type of craziness. I don't like pain. Silly me.

Sador person ---> I don't think that the evil cactus (Yay for this analogy!) that is love only deals with brains. Emotion comes into most things. Too bad. I'm just saying that it's possible to let reason win over the stupidity that emotions can get you into. How is it torturous to be able to laugh at the people who don't know Rule Number One? Love is bad. I don't hide from the evil cactus. I sit down on a lawn chair with a bag of popcorn and watch other people sit on it right after I warn them. :D

The_elf_Herself person ---> Yes, my evil parents are divorced. Maybe that helped me find out how evil love is. Yay for that. But then, it was suggested to me that I thought Rule Number One up because of my superly cool grandmother. She lived with us. When I was a little kid, she was just the scary and harsh old lady who lived on the far side of the house. I only warmed up to her a lot later on. I felt bad about not getting to know her earlier and now I don't have the chance to. It's better to remain distant.

Rhiannon person ---> That makes sense to me. But then, we've established that the odds are huge. Why risk it? Why risk running into someone who's dumb? :rolleyes:

[Dragon]

I think if everyone thought about it the way I did, they wouldn't b as worried... I'm still a little worried... I think it's not the lvoe that is bad, it's the loss of love, I think the only reason 2 feel bad really is if they go away or die or something like that, if they leave u or cheat on u, they obviously don't love u, or they r 2 stupid 2 know any better, and so they aren't worth your time.

yay, I love your analogy. even tho I disagree, I still love it, that's so cool:D :D :D :rolleyes:

[YayGollum]

Sure, the heartache is what's bad, but you wouldn't run into that if you didn't fall on the cactus in the first place. It seems to me to be that you're saying ---> "Oh, but smoking is cool!" I sarcastically say ---> "Oh, yes, especially the part where you get lung cancer and die!" :rolleyes: Is that analogy better? Why would you disagree with either? :eek:

[Annushka]

Originally posted by Kailita
[B]But I have to say that even if your parents fight, I really respect them (even though I've never met them :rolleyes: ) for staying together like that for your sake and your brother's. So many people get selfish around divorcing times and completely forget about their kids or abandon them or whatnot. So your parents really do love you a lot.[B]

I might be wrong but I think that very often it's much better for the kids when their parents are separated than when they live in constant fighting etc.
I`m not the one judge, cause my parents aren`t divorced and fight just from time to time (mostly because of my brother and our relatives), but still I think it's better to see your parents not together than envying all the time. I can imagine how difficult it was all for you, Jam. But you`re right, everything you went through made you the way you are now.

Yay, can I ask a personal question? If it's non of my business please let me know. Have you EVER been in love? Cause it's hard to have an opinion on something without being in the situation.

[The-Elf-Herself]

Yeah. The problem now is that since they've given up on each other, they both like to use their lovable daughter as a sounding board for rants against the other supposedly adult person in the relationship. I am so SICK of hearing my Mom yell about my Dad and my Dad yell about my Mom to me. What, do I look like a bl**dy marriage counsellor? Augh! Maybe this is more of a rant in itself, but I just get sick of it. Love is definitely not the way to go unless it's the real deal stuff that lasts and is worth the work to make it last. Unfortunately that stuff only comes around once in a while to other people, so I'll just stay here with my stack of odds.

Actually, I'd amend you're analogy Yay. It's like saying 'one in a huge bunch of people aren't deathly allergic to a certain chemical, so I'm going to go right out and see if I'm one of the lucky ones!' The odds simply aren't in your favor. It's not wise.

[Dragon]

hmmm, I like jams anaology better than ur new one...smoking isn't cool at all, in any way no matta what.

I'm not going out 2 c if I'm a lucky one, I'm gonna wait until it comes 4 me:D :rolleyes: :eek:

[Rhiannon]

Yeah- going out looking for love is a big waste of time. If it's going to happen to you, it'll happen just as well if you sit back and wait for it.

[BranMuffin]

I'm shure you've seen my posts in Elgee's thread "Who should be Elgee's guy", Yay. Wasn't this already dicussed over there too.

[Talierin]

Originally posted by Rhiannon
Yeah- going out looking for love is a big waste of time. If it's going to happen to you, it'll happen just as well if you sit back and wait for it.

Aye, and when that does happen, it has the tendancy to smack you upside the head with a sledgehammer, hehehe *knows*

[BranMuffin]

What looking for it or waiting for it???
*I'm reminded of a Philmore song.....Fishy*

[Lomelinde]

Originally posted by Talierin
Aye, and when that does happen, it has the tendancy to smack you upside the head with a sledgehammer, hehehe *knows*

Yeah it certaintly does...but I'm not complaining ;) :)

[Rhiannon]

Pfft. Of course not. You had Beren fall in your lap and you have got nothing to complain about...

[Talierin]

I ain't complaining either... except mine is too far away :(

[YayGollum]

Annushka person ---> No, I'm one of the lucky ones. No nasssty heartache for me. Anyways, it's easy to have an opinion about something you haven't had to deal with. It is possible to learn from other people's experiences.

The_elf_Herself person ---> But still, not everyone gets lung cancer. I win. :rolleyes:

Dragon person ---> Ack! I wasn't saying that you thought smoking was cool. It was an analogy. It looks like you don't mind falling on cacti. I can see why it could be harmful. Get it? oh well.

BranMuffin person ---> No, I don't remember anything that very many people said in that thread. Why? Should I go look over there again? I have no problem with discussing things with Outcasts over here.

[Sador]

Originally posted by YayGollum


Sador person ---> I don't think that the evil cactus (Yay for this analogy!) that is love only deals with brains. Emotion comes into most things. Too bad. I'm just saying that it's possible to let reason win over the stupidity that emotions can get you into. How is it torturous to be able to laugh at the people who don't know Rule Number One? Love is bad. I don't hide from the evil cactus. I sit down on a lawn chair with a bag of popcorn and watch other people sit on it right after I warn them. :D

:

Well Yay I like to eat ice cream(cactus flavour). It is yummy. I sometimes get a headache from eating ice cream. Should I never eat ice cream again, because I might get a headache? Should I try to warn everyone against ice cream headaches? Then laugh at them as they clutch their temples in pain?
Love(and even the pain it can sometimes produce) is food for the soul. Without it I believe a person will wither and can never reach their true potential.
You are still very young so I forgive your ignorance on this subject. :rolleyes: :D

[BranMuffin]

Very good analogy, Sador. It can really relate to the ladies who eat Ice cream all the time....maybe as a result of love. You know the wallowing in self pity eating ice cream cliche....

[Dragon]

yes, but actually, in truth, chocolate is better 4 that...cold is bad.

yes yay, I "get it" but htat doesn't mean I feel the same way:rolleyes: just bc I disagree doesn't mean I don't understand

[Rhiannon]

Nay, ice cream is better than chocolate. Ice cream with chocolate- well, the human nervous system can only take so much stimulation.

[ely]

hmm... I don't remember who said this, but I agree with that: "It's better to love and lost than never to love at all".

Yeah, I believe that love may hurt, but it may also become the best thing in your life, bring you joy and happiness. And sometimes you just have to take a risk. Isn't it said that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger?

I hope with all my heart that one day I'll find true love :D



And about ice cream and chocolate: in winter I prefer chocolate, in summer (if it's warm enough, like now :) ) ice cream

[YayGollum]

Yikes!

Sador person ---> Do you deny that ignorance is bliss? :eek: oh well. Yes, I think that you should warn people about the headaches and laugh at the pain that they could have avoided. But then, headaches that you can get from ice cream aren't such a great analogy. Heartache is the worst kind of ache. You can get over headaches. Anyways, I will wither and not reach whatever some crazy person might decide is my true potential if I don't risk the worst kind of ache? Sounds like craziness to me. Is it not possible for someone to be especially cool without letting themselves get hurt?

Dragon person ---> Ack! Why don't you agree since you know what I'm talking about? :( I don't get it. There's no good reason to let yourself get hurt.

ely person ---> Woah! No, the odds are too huge. Don't risk the heartache. I'm trying to help. Not trying to be evil.

[Lomelinde]

Yay, I have officially decided you are a lost cause. I guess it's one of those things a person can never fully understand until it's happened to them (falling on a cactus)...if they even fully understand it then. It's almost like falling on cactuses (cacti?) makes you bi-polar in a sense. Sure, you can experience the worst kind of ache (heartache) but you also experience the highest high. Something words can't even describe. So yeah, if you want to stay mediocre then avoid falling on cacti...but those willing to be daring and search for more are to be applauded. Horrah for everyone who's fallen on a cactus!! :D

[Dragon]

lomie, I've given up on yay, it's more of a matter of getting him 2 give up on us, no matter what we say he still tries 2 save us from cacti...:rolleyes: :o :rolleyes: :o

[Sador]

Yay person, just because you avoid falling in love, doesn't mean you will avoid pain.*puts on corny TV voice* For those times when pain occurs..... You need a loved one.
I think that if in life pain is unavoidable, then you should pursue happiness when you can. Being loved and being in love is what happiness is all about.
You may very well say that you have all the love you need already with your family around you. Thats great, but for people who aren't as lucky as you falling in love can be more about support and trust than it is about anything else.




This has got to be the sappyest piece of romantic drivel I have ever produced. I apologise to anyone who was seized with uncontrollable spasms whilst reading the above.

[spirit]

haha!

well, if love is ment to be the sweetest think *apparently* why does it bring pain?

[Annushka]

Originally posted by YayGollum
Heartache is the worst kind of ache. You can get over
headaches.

Well, actually headaches are much worse. Believe me, I have them every spring, it's a family thing, from my father (like there wasn't anything better to inherit from him:()

Anyway, I think that family love can never replace romantic love. How is it possible??

[spirit]

your family will be there for you always (for most people i mean)

[Annushka]

Yeah, I know that. For me they are the best support always. sometimes I don`t know why I am so lucky.

But these two kinds of love are so different. They can`t possibly be compared or put in the same line.

[YayGollum]

Thanks for giving up on me, people. I am way too achingly stubborn for my own good most of the time. oh well. Have fun. I have no problem with trying to help people. I am afraid of people who would love to guide people to pain. *hides* oh well. I am not mediocre. It is possible to have fun with self-preservation.

Sador person ---> Sure that makes sense. I doubt that many people get to avoid all kinds of pain all the time. At least I get to avoid the worst kind. It is possible to be happy and not have to deal with evil cacti. If family type love doesn't work, grab friends or something.

Headaches are worse than heartache? I'll take your word for it. I plan on never finding out. oh well. You can take pain killers for headaches, right? :confused:

[The-Elf-Herself]

*chuckles from her corner*

I told you Yay: they're irrepressible. Why bother? Different people have different points of view. Have fun going out there, enjoy this love thing, just don't come after me saying I'm being too cynical. Friends make the world go 'round, much better than this romantic love thing.

[ely]

Oh Yay, don't worry I'll give up on you quite soon too, I guess. You are truly unique, that's why I like you :D

But please explain me one thing. How can you compare love with falling on cactus? Because, as I said before, love can also bring you joy and happiness, but I've never seen anyone who's happy because he fell on cactus...

I'm positive you have a good explanation. I'd love to hear that... :D :D :D

[Dragon]

~*sigh*~

he can compare them bc he's is overlooking the joy and happiness in order not 2 b tempted into something he doesn't want 2 happen. and all the better 4 him.

thanx jam. c yay? jam has given up on us, and she isn't having any qualms about it. y do u bother? u know we're hopeless:rolleyes: :o :D

[YayGollum]

Yes, this evil Dragon person knows what I'm talking about, ely person. I'm overlooking the stuff that could be good and going straight for the evility that will most likely end up happening. Trying to knock sense into people. Maybe I should just go with the smoking analogy? Since some people enjoy that. Anyways, no, I'm planning on sticking to warning people even if they don't get it. Either they'll finally pay attention, or they'll decide to ignore me for forever. :rolleyes:

[Dragon]

hmm, I want u 2 give up bc I don't want 2 always ignore u, bc u have some good points 2 make, so I think u should just give up on us. we're hopeless. come on.:rolleyes: :o

[Eriol]

Hmmm, I think we have agreed at least that love is very important for the task of raising a family. For those "very cynical" out there, it is at least a concession that the cactus is, in some small way, useful -- which seems to be the main standard of the cynics :rolleyes:.

Of course, once you begin to study it you see that "love in order to..." is not TRUE love. It is a noble feeling, of course; especially if the goal, the thing we put after the dots, is noble too. Family raising is noble, and therefore the feeling that "glues" the family together is also noble. But it is not TRUE love. Why? Because true love is not a means to anything. You do not love "in order to"; and neither you love "because". You just love.

If your love is not a free choice, made without regard (and even in spite of) for causes and effects, then it is not true love. True love is the ultimate domain of human freedom (see, I can be sappy too ;) ). If you love "because the guy makes you feel great", you are in fact following the feeling and not your will; and love is an effort of the will.

This is a statement that will draw disagreement from both sides, I think :) -- love is an effort of the will, of the free will, in a free decision, the freest decision imaginable.

The cynics are quite right in saying that love is dangerous, or that it can hurt you. But why should you think of these things when loving? In fact, and that is perhaps a major point too, love is not about you; it is about the other. You should not be careful about you, only about the other. And this is true always -- in my very humble opinion ;).

The more I think of it, the more I think it is very difficult to truly love someone without loving God, and the more I think that that definition of Kierkegaard is correct. Why? Because if we don't have God, then when we love the other, we are really loving the gratification we get from loving the other. We are loving the fact that we are in love, instead of truly loving the others. In a sense, we are simply loving ourselves. This is far too easy :D -- we should aim higher.

We should be careful to avoid treating the beloved as the "other-I", as a noble substitute for our selfish cravings. To be selfish on behalf of the beloved is still selfish.

Well, where can I get the ice cream now?

[Dragon]

marble slab is the bestest.:D

some of ur stuff makes perfect sense, and then u say something else, and then it doesn't, and then....

I'm all confuzzled:confused:

[Eriol]

Sorry... what part of it does not make sense? All of it but the icecream?

:D

[YayGollum]

sorry, evil Dragon person, but I'm just way too achingly stubborn for my own good. Planning on proving that every time I'm able to.

Anyways, Eriol person, Ick. I understood all of that, but it still doesn't make sense. Know what I mean? Of course love is supposed to be a sickeningly selfless thing. That's a good reason to avoid it. Selfless = not too concerned about self-preservation, which should be important. Sure, Yay for your teachings directed at the people who have already decided to start getting lung cancer, but for those of us (counts to two) who have decided to remain sensible, that's just some crazy advice that leads people even farther down to the dark side. :eek:

[ely]

Yay person, I think it's quite pointless to argue with you. It's a free world and everyone can have his own opinion. And besides, I don't need to change your mind. I'm sure that one day you'll fall on "evil cacti" yourself and find out that it isn't as bad as you thought. ;) ;) ;) Or you die of loneliness... OR end up with 11 cats...

[Eriol]

Originally posted by YayGollum
sorry, evil Dragon person, but I'm just way too achingly stubborn for my own good. Planning on proving that every time I'm able to.

Anyways, Eriol person, Ick. I understood all of that, but it still doesn't make sense. Know what I mean? Of course love is supposed to be a sickeningly selfless thing. That's a good reason to avoid it. Selfless = not too concerned about self-preservation, which should be important. Sure, Yay for your teachings directed at the people who have already decided to start getting lung cancer, but for those of us (counts to two) who have decided to remain sensible, that's just some crazy advice that leads people even farther down to the dark side. :eek:

Agreed, heartily. We have the same diagnosis of love; we see the same facts. The difference between us is that I see it as this:

selfless = good
selfish = bad

While you see it backwards, or upside-down, or inverted, or whatever. Or perhaps I am the inverted one. Who knows? It can't be easily argued. But we can have fun in the arguing nonetheless :D.

But I think other people here had not seen it as clearly as you, Yay. When people were worried about love bringing pain, they were reasoning from a selfish standpoint; but they can only criticize love on these grounds if they agree with you that "selfless = bad". Do they? Who knows?

I guess the only thing left to say is that when you fall in love (not if, when -- :D) you will see that selfless can be very, very good... I'm warning you about the good side of the cactus ;). It is so good that it makes you want to hug the cactus. You should not miss it for fear of little thorns.

[The-Elf-Herself]

Hmmm, eleven cats? Don't you already HAVE cats Yay? Good side of the cactus? HUG the darn thing? Sure, fine for you to say. Not me. I'm not against love for selfish reasons, that's why I say if you really want to go for it, knock yourself out. If you happen to find it and it lasts, even better. Just don't expect ME out there. I'd rather read a book, write a story, pet my dogs. Having a big house of animals and getting to write all day long is my dream, with music gigs on the side. People are interesting to study, make interesting friends, create interesting arguments, but that's about it.

[YayGollum]

No, ely person, it's not pointless to argue with me. Well, maybe about this subject since I've already decided to be way too stubborn for my own good about it. Anyone can argue with me about other things, though. oh well.

Anyways, Woah! Scary Eriol person! Yikes! You won't be getting an invitation to my wedding! I can't let you know that you've been proved right! :rolleyes: Craziness. Why so sure? Ha! oh well. Who says that you have to be selfish to have a good sense of self-preservation? That's just an instinct, right? Some of us just have better instincts, I guess. sorry about that. I guess I'm just trying to let people realize their potential. :rolleyes: What's so bad about living with eleven cats? I've lived with seven at one point already. Yes, I have three cats right now. This The_elf_Herself person makes all kinds of sense. There's no good reason to jump on a cactus. Plenty of other enjoyable things to do.

[Rhiannon]

Eriol, I agree with you. I don't think I have anything to add to what you alread said ;)

Except ely, what's wrong with having eleven cats? I've had eleven cats at various times. Of course, they were mostly barn cats...I only have three right now too. And two of those are outside. But I love cats. Cats and otters be my favorite animals.

[spirit]

yay, why do you refer to everyone as {name} person
evil Dragon person and ely person :confused:

[Rhiannon]

Because he's the YAY person

[ely]

Originally posted by Rhiannon
Except ely, what's wrong with having eleven cats? I've had eleven cats at various times. Of course, they were mostly barn cats...I only have three right now too. And two of those are outside. But I love cats. Cats and otters be my favorite animals.

Oh, there's nothing wrong with having eleven cats, but then you really have to love cats and it might be a little hard to take care of them, though when they're independent... And it also matters where you live, can the cat go outside alone and that kind of stuff... and you have to clean their mess...

Anyway, I have never had a cat, but my sister lived together with seven cats and she told me that it was quite terrible.

Anyway, when you have 11 cats then you must have time to take care of them, and I think it would be quite impossible to have 11 cats and little children in one house...

And so I just made a deduction that if you're lonely and want to have some kind of company or take care of somebody or you just like cats then you take some cats.

It wasn't meant in a bad way, I didn't want to insult anyone including cats.

[YayGollum]

Uh, huh. Well, having had seven cats at one time, I wouldn't think that having eleven would be too much harder. We had some cats that stayed inside all the time and some that would go out or come in when they wanted to. One would never leave the attic. The fact that they're nice and independent is good. You don't have to give them as much attention as some evil dog. just leave their food and water out. You don't have to clean up after them if they stay out.

Anyways, I always call people whatever their name is over here person because I happen to believe that the names they have here aren't their real names. If I thought that they were the real names, I wouldn't add person on there. just a touch of reality. Why, is it spoiling fun?

[Rhiannon]

No, Yay person, it's just another example of your Yay person uniqueness that is sometimes baffling to newcomers.

11 cats wouldn't be so great if they were all indoor and you had to clean litter. Indoor/outdoor cats would be fine.

[Annushka]

I wouldn't be happy at all if Muf went out whenever he wanted to. But I guess 11 cats being at home all the time are quite difficult to handle.

[Rhiannon]

Our Sabriel mostly wants to stay inside, but we don't worry about her going out every once in a while- the other two cats (her kittens) are outside, after all, and she's independent and things.

[YayGollum]

Sure, I'll agree with the Rhiannon person, but still. I'll just say that both explanations work. Anyways, do no Outcasts have anything else to say about how evil love is? Or have you all decided to admit defeat? :eek: :rolleyes:

[Sador]

I was going to say how I don't want to get pets(cats in particular) because it is too sad when they die. Then I realised this was Yay's argument against love.
Come on Yay, why should anyone have a pet cat when they know it is going to die and bring them heartache and pain one day?
Much better to just pause outside the pet shop once and awhile to point out the stench.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by YayGollum
Sure, I'll agree with the Rhiannon person, but still. I'll just say that both explanations work. Anyways, do no Outcasts have anything else to say about how evil love is? Or have you all decided to admit defeat? :eek: :rolleyes:

It belongs to love to admit "defeat", at least on your grounds, Yay -- logic and usefulness.

And yet...

After "usefulness" disappears, we will still have love.

;).

[Annushka]

Will we? I`m not sure.

[Eriol]

Check on St. Paul's quote, on the first pages of this thread, Annushka. Love will remain after all else is gone.

[ely]

I just got another crazy idea. You are talking about that love hurts so much that it's better to live without it.

But guys, that is life. It consists of happiness but also of sadness. So isn't it good to have at least some tragic moments, when your sad and hurt. I'm not saying that being miserable is a good thing, it's not, but it's normal. It's life. Of course you should try to be as happy as you can, but those sad moments make you appreciate the good and happy moments of your life.

I know it sounds crazy, it is kind of crazy, but I can't explain it any better. The main point was, I think, that sad moment let you enjoy the happy moments more, we don't really understand how happy we are until something bad happens. And though bad things are bad things they help us to appreciate our lives a lot more than we did before.

[The-Elf-Herself]

Yeah, I agree life consists of sad moments and happy moments, but like you said, that happens anyways. Why go out and search for trouble with this love business? The bad stuff you get naturally should be enough to enjoy all that good stuff. We know life comes with pain, we're just trying to minimize that pain. Romantic love isn't necessary to a healthy life, and it usually adds more pain on top of what is already your lot, so why bother? Yay already said some other good stuff on that subject.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by The-Elf-Herself
We know life comes with pain, we're just trying to minimize that pain.

There's a great way to minimize pain -- death. Death is the great pain minimizer.

Other ways to minimize pain include indifference -- if you take indifference seriously enough, it will miminimize pain greatly. Boredom is also great for that -- there's almost no pain when you're bored.

I guess you see the point. "less pain" is not equal to "better".

Romantic love isn't necessary to a healthy life, and it usually adds more pain on top of what is already your lot, so why bother?

No, it isn't necessary -- why would we think about "necessary"? The only necessary things in the world are the superfluous things :D. "Necessary" is only bread and water and shelter -- but "man does not live on bread alone".

You and Yay, the elite of the brutally honest, have all kinds of favorite things -- TTF, perhaps some flavor of ice cream, cats, freedom from arguing, etc. etc. You pick what it is, I don't know it. But love is simply that favorite thing "multiplied by itself, and stretched to infinity" (that, or something like that, is straight out of Meet Joe Black, the movie ;) ).

Love can't be bad; it's as simple as that. The question is, will you risk love in the face of possible pain or not? If you will, then you are blessed; if you won't, well then, you are right along those bored, indifferent, or dead guys who managed to avoid pain much more efficiently than you.

We lovers admit defeat; but our defeat automatically turns into victory, for love can't lose; it is by admitting defeat that we win.

Talk about crazy :D.

[YayGollum]

Sador person ---> You might just end up dying before the pet. Or something like that. Besides, it seems to me to be that the two situations we're talking about are way too achingly different. A pet dying and you running into heartache in some crazy way. Having a cat die doesn't sound as bad as some of the crazy heartache stories I've run into.

Eriol person ---> So you admit that love is useless? Well, thanks. Sounds good to me. Now I just gots to wonder why anyone would feel like sticking with something so useless. And most likely painful. Anyways, death sounds a little extreme. Trying to make me look crazy, I guess. Indifference is always good. I'll go with that. Bored people don't fall in love? I didn't know that. oh well. Man doesn't live on bread alone. Got it. You already said the other two things we need. Water and shelter. Sounds good to me. Since when is it not possible for love to lose? Happens all the time. I'm trying to prevent heartache for people. Or do you enjoy heartache?

ely person ---> I feel bad about being able to understand what you're talking about but still disagreeing. I say ---> If you are able to use your brain and prevent pain, why not? You say that even if you run into heartache, it makes you a better person. Heartache is the worst kind of ache. You'd want to risk it because it might just make you a better person? I'm sure that people can get to better in some way by not running into that.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by YayGollum
Eriol person ---> So you admit that love is useless? Well, thanks. Sounds good to me. Now I just gots to wonder why anyone would feel like sticking with something so useless. And most likely painful. Anyways, death sounds a little extreme. Trying to make me look crazy, I guess. Indifference is always good. I'll go with that. Bored people don't fall in love? I didn't know that. oh well. Man doesn't live on bread alone. Got it. You already said the other two things we need. Water and shelter. Sounds good to me. Since when is it not possible for love to lose? Happens all the time. I'm trying to prevent heartache for people. Or do you enjoy heartache?

I would never try to make you look crazy. I was just stating a fact; dead people don't feel pain. If avoiding pain is the greatest value, death is not "extreme" -- it is wise. Needless to say, I don't agree that avoiding pain is the greatest value.

Bored people who fall in love quickly snap out of boredom ;) -- if you fall in love, you're not bored.

As for love never losing, I guess you'll have to take my word for that,since you never experienced it; as well as the word of every other person who HAS experienced it.

Heartache is not so bad -- especially compared to indifference or boredom.

[YayGollum]

Ack! Suicide is wise. That definitely sounds crazy to me. But then, sure, you're right. I haven't experienced heartache. Those types definitely feel like suicide. Maybe it seems wise to them. It sounds crazy to me. Why should I risk running into something that would make me want to kill myself? Ick. No thanks. I can avoid pain by using my brain. The pain I'm talking about is heartache. Not other types. Anyways, Woah! Being indifferent or bored hurts more than running into heartache? That's just craziness. Explain yourself! :eek:

[Eriol]

Explanation following:

It is not love that makes you want to commit suicide, quite the contrary. It is this reasoning:

Pain must be avoided at all costs;

Death is the surest way to avoid pain;

Suicide is wise, therefore.

This reasoning apply only to people who do not believe in love, because only these people can accept the first sentence. In other words, suicidal lovers are following a bad reasoning. Only non-lovers can be consistently suicidal.

If you are qualifying your statement that pain must be avoided at all costs by saying that "I'm only talking about heartache", then I say you speak of what you don't know ;). "Heartache must be avoided at all costs" seems whimsical if you never experienced it -- especially if people who HAVE experienced it say that it is worthwhile.

I did not say that indifference or boredom hurts more than heartache, I said that they are worse. The first thing I said in this thread was that "pain" and "evil" are not the same thing -- and unless I'm mistaken I think you agreed. :eek:

Sure, heartache hurts more than indifference or boredom; but it is better. The pain is worth it.

[YayGollum]

Ack! Crazy person, the suicidal lovers you're talking about only get to be that crazy because of evil cacti. If they hadn't run into them, they wouldn't start planning on killing themselves. I have no idea what kind of crazy people you're talking about that feel like killing themselves without dealing with heartache. Sounds off topic to me. I hope you don't think that I'm like that. oh well.

What makes you think that I don't know things about heartache? I've seen how it affects people. Doesn't seem like something I'd enjoy. Or something that anyone does. Seems like something you'd want to avoid. Perfect solution ---> Use your brain to avoid the risk. What insane person has ever said that heartache is worthwhile? Or are they mostly talking about the good stuff that comes before the heartache? I don't know. People who have had to run into heartache don't look back on that part of their lives with all kinds of pleasant nostalgia.

[The-Elf-Herself]

Exactly. You don't have to actually burn your finger to know it hurts; all you have to do is see the reactions of others who have burned their fingers and their experiences. Indifference doesn't hurt, because in true indifference you don't even consider love; you're in complete apathy of it. There's no pain in that. Death is the surest way to avoid pain? Hah! The dying part might hurt you and the fact that you're dead hurts other people. That doesn't make sense. We're saying that while it's impossible to avoid pain, diving into romantic love is just foolish, because the likelihood for pain is so great. You might say that why even own an animal then, because they're going to die. That's not the type of pain we're talking about. That's inevitable, you go into with eyes wide open that this creature won't live as long as you, that things may happen, and accept that. It's a personal choice, but you DO have a measure of control and know that with the proper care and affection, the animal will be whatever it is. With love, so often people think it's a wonderful thing, free from pain, then get hurt. There were no warnings for them and if there were, they wouldn't listen. Futhermore, there's no guarantee that the person you love will love you, that something won't happen to them, that they won't just up and leave one day, or a hundred other possibilities that crop up just due to the fact that you're dealing with human beings. With all that in consideration, I'm surprised so many people go for this love thing; why not get a dog or cat?

[Eriol]

Originally posted by The-Elf-Herself
Exactly. You don't have to actually burn your finger to know it hurts; all you have to do is see the reactions of others who have burned their fingers and their experiences. Indifference doesn't hurt, because in true indifference you don't even consider love; you're in complete apathy of it. There's no pain in that. Death is the surest way to avoid pain? Hah! The dying part might hurt you and the fact that you're dead hurts other people. That doesn't make sense.

If you will only look at reactions from other people, you will surely search for love; for that is what most people do. Only if you have some other knowledge you can say that love is bad.

"The fact that you're dead hurts other people"; well, so does the fact of you not loving them; and more important, your not loving them harms you.

We're saying that while it's impossible to avoid pain, diving into romantic love is just foolish, because the likelihood for pain is so great. You might say that why even own an animal then, because they're going to die. That's not the type of pain we're talking about. That's inevitable, you go into with eyes wide open that this creature won't live as long as you, that things may happen, and accept that. It's a personal choice, but you DO have a measure of control and know that with the proper care and affection, the animal will be whatever it is. With love, so often people think it's a wonderful thing, free from pain, then get hurt.

I quite agree with your point here; people are hurt because of their misconceptions about love. But that does not mean that love is bad; as your example shows, since you are not arguing that owning an animal is bad.

The solution is for people to realize what love demands from you; not to forsake love altogether. Especially because love is the most important thing a human being can do on earth.

There were no warnings for them and if there were, they wouldn't listen. Futhermore, there's no guarantee that the person you love will love you, that something won't happen to them, that they won't just up and leave one day, or a hundred other possibilities that crop up just due to the fact that you're dealing with human beings.

Exactly; there is no guarantee. And again it leaves the value of love untouched. If you love and are abandoned, you are lucky; if you love and are loved back, you are more lucky; if you can keep this for your entire life, you are amazingly lucky.

However, if you don't love at all, you'll never be lucky; for no other joy can compensate the lack of love. That's the only true sorrow, the only true misfortune.

Originally posted by YayGollum

I have no idea what kind of crazy people you're talking about that feel like killing themselves without dealing with heartache.

I'll tell what kind of people they are -- the kind of people who arrive at a conclusion -- "pain is always bad; the most important thing is to avoid pain" -- and take the result of their reasoning to their utmost conclusion. You either change the reasoning or accept the conclusion, and kill yourself.

People who have had to run into heartache don't look back on that part of their lives with all kinds of pleasant nostalgia.

They do; trust me on that (after all you've never experienced it). It's not that the heartache itself is good; but it is worthwhile to have it, because what comes with the heartache is much better than anything you might have felt by yourself.

[Annushka]

Originally posted by Eriol
They do; trust me on that (after all you've never experienced it). It's not that the heartache itself is good; but it is worthwhile to have it, because what comes with the heartache is much better than anything you might have felt by yourself.

No they don't. At least I don't. I had my heart broken once and believe me that's not the part of my life I look back on and smile happily.

In this case we can be divided into 3 group:

1. people who don't believe in love, try to avoid it and are sure that it is possible.
2. people who think that love is the best thing in the world and it makes people happy (in addition to that it makes people dependable, volnurable, helpless and in the end unhappy).
3. And people who know all the risks, but are still ready to face them. Like me:D To be more specific I'm not going to run from it, cause I don't know how to do that. Yay always says - use your brains not to sit on the cacti:D I've asked him several times to explain that to me, but he still hasn't gave me any instructions:D :rolleyes:

[Eriol]

Warning -- this may sound harsh.

If you don't look back at lost love with good feelings, chances are it never was love in the first place. Your heart can be broken by other things than love.

Sorry if it DID sound harsh, Annushka; I don't know if this is your case. Trust me on what I said, is the only thing I can say.

I belong to group 4: people who face the risks willingly, not because there is some mysterious force behind it, but because love is good even when it is bad. Another way to put it is that love can't be bad. Actually, the best way to put it is that if you don't love, you are less than alive.

Group 4 does not want to learn how to avoid the cactus; for the cactus is the best thing in their lives; they want to hug the cactus until they die, and they don't mind the thorns and the blood spilled in the process.

Love IS the best thing in the world; but that does not mean it makes people happy. Love is better than happiness; that's the main point of it. If you love in order to be happy, then love is not the best thing in the world, losing first place to happiness.

P.S. Truth be said, Annushka, you are the closest thing to 'normal' here; both I and the brutally honest Yay and The-Elf-Herself are extremists.

The difference between us is that I'm, well, right :D.

[Annushka]

Warning -- this may sound harsh.

That sounded so scary. I thought you're going to say REALLY bad things to poor me. Fortunately you didn't. It's 2am and I don't wanna be upset before going to bed.

You're right. That wasn't love. I was in love and broken hearted.

I don't know what to say to somebody who so truly believes in what he says. That's good. Cause I hesitate all the way. I don't have any answers. I hope they'll come to me some day. And I wanted to say good luck to you. You can be considered the happiest. I'm too sleepy to explain why. i'm sure you know what I wanna say.

Edit - I've read your P.S. just now. Actually that was the main point of my previous post, about groups. Not that I'm normal, but that you and Yay+Jam present two opposite ideas. I'm the one in between with no answers. My side is the worst, cause you all know what you want. And I'm all confused:(

[YayGollum]

Lots to say. Yikes!

"If you will only look at reactions from other people, you will surely search for love; for that is what most people do. Only if you have some other knowledge you can say that love is bad."

Yes, I have the other knowledge you're talking about. And from the same source, too. Reactions from other people. They don't liike heartache. I won't risk it. That's insane.

""The fact that you're dead hurts other people"; well, so does the fact of you not loving them; and more important, your not loving them harms you."

That last thing is craziness. You gots to explain that, right? I have never seen any evidence of that.

"I quite agree with your point here; people are hurt because of their misconceptions about love. But that does not mean that love is bad; as your example shows, since you are not arguing that owning an animal is bad.

The solution is for people to realize what love demands from you; not to forsake love altogether. Especially because love is the most important thing a human being can do on earth."

Craziness. It does mean that love is bad. What else could it mean? Misconceptions about love only show up because of love. Which is bad, of course. It seems to me to be that you're saying that any type of love that doesn't work out only showed up because of some crazy misconception. Even if that is true (which sounds pretty crazy to me), love was still the cause. *gasp!* We'd better avoid it, then! Anyways, there's a huge difference between owning a pet and falling on a cactus. Why compare the two? That last thing of yours is just a crazy opinion.

"Exactly; there is no guarantee. And again it leaves the value of love untouched. If you love and are abandoned, you are lucky; if you love and are loved back, you are more lucky; if you can keep this for your entire life, you are amazingly lucky.

However, if you don't love at all, you'll never be lucky; for no other joy can compensate the lack of love. That's the only true sorrow, the only true misfortune. "

These insane observances of luck don't make much sense. You're just spouting opinions. I'd love for you to explain why you think that last thing. It is possible for people to have especially great lives without having to deal with evil cacti. That's a fact. How's about another? ---> Heartache is the worst kind of ache. It's stupidity to risk it. Noone enjoys heartache. Why should anyone allow it to happen when noone's forcing them to?

Yay for you finally admitting that heartache is bad! just piece things together now. If it wasn't for the evil cactus, you wouldn't run into heartache.

How is the second group any different from the fourth? sorry for the long post. This is just too much fun.

Annushka person ---> What was confusing about my explanation? Use your brains so you don't sit on some evil cactus. = Use your brains so you don't fall in love. It's stupidity. Heartache is the worst kind of ache. Why risk it? just because of the good stuff that might happen before the evil heartache? That's like my other analogy. Don't smoke. People seem to like it, don't they? Until they get lung cancer. Why risk that? It's stupidity.

[Rhiannon]

Love of family, friends, pets, etc. is necassary and without it life would be...pretty bad. By caring about other people/things, you do leave yourself open to hurt if something happens to these people/things, but ultimately it's worth it.

Romantic love you can do without, but I personally see no reason to avoid it- but I also see no reason to go out looking for you. If it's going to happen, it'll happen regardless, so in the meantime go out and live your life and have fun.

Love is neither good nor bad. It is merely an emotion. The difference is whether it 'worked', or whether it 'didn't work' and therefore caused pain (making it, IMHO, not love in the first place).

</a few random thoughts>

[YayGollum]

Since when is the love of anything necessary? I didn't know that. oh well. Got it. Romantic love isn't necessary. I'll tell you why you should avoid it. ---> You'll most likely run into heartache, which is the worst kind of ache. Don't be stupid. You say that if love doesn't work and you end up with heartache, that it wasn't really love to begin with? Love is only that if it works perfectly? Sounds crazy to me. But then, the real type is what made people try messing with the fake type, right? So it's still bad. Yay! :rolleyes:

[Eriol]

Love is the only thing necessary; and one of the reasons why love is necessary is that it is superfluous, you can live quite well without it. It is a choice; not an emotion. The emotion sometimes prompts the choice, and sometimes it is prompted by the choice, but love is the choice, not the accompanying emotion.

"Romantic love", most of the time, is self-love. Since it aims at accomplishing something, at achieving a goal, at winning a prize; and true love wants only to love. It does not want to win; it does not want to get the girl at the end at all costs. It wants to love; and it is quite as successful if the girl does not return the love.

Craziness. It does mean that love is bad. What else could it mean? Misconceptions about love only show up because of love. Which is bad, of course. It seems to me to be that you're saying that any type of love that doesn't work out only showed up because of some crazy misconception. Even if that is true (which sounds pretty crazy to me), love was still the cause. *gasp!* We'd better avoid it, then! Anyways, there's a huge difference between owning a pet and falling on a cactus. Why compare the two? That last thing of yours is just a crazy opinion.

This is the precise reasoning of the suicide, Yay; just substitute "life" for "love" and you will see what I meant by talking about the suicide. It is the logical conclusion; life, not love, is the cause of all of our pains.

""The fact that you're dead hurts other people"; well, so does the fact of you not loving them; and more important, your not loving them harms you."

That last thing is craziness. You gots to explain that, right? I have never seen any evidence of that.

No, I don't have to explain that; you either see it or you don't. I think you will see it in the future. It's not a conclusion, it is a mere fact; so there is no explanation behind it.

These insane observances of luck don't make much sense. You're just spouting opinions.

Aren't we all? :D At least mine are correct, as I told Annushka. Love does not "make sense", at least not in the mind's reckoning; that's why I agreed with you that from a purely rational point of view, you are right.

The problem is -- the "purely rational" point of view is not purely rational :). The "insanity" that I am telling you about is more rational than pure rationality. (As the "suicide reasoning" shows, by the way).

The difference between the 2 groups is that one is blind to the thorns of the cactus, and the other welcomes them as necessary for the enjoyment of the cactus. Group 2 thinks the cactus is ice cream; Group 4 seems the cactus for what it is -- and this is more than can be said of any other group.

[YayGollum]

Yikes! You almost got me to give up on you! Scary! Lucky for you that I'm just way too stubborn and helpful! :rolleyes: Why are you contradicting yourself? Love is necessary and superflous at the same time? Doesn't make much sense to me. Go with one or the other. I say that it's stupidity. I gots facts, not opinions. People run into heartache (the worst kind of ache) because of it. That's not a good thing. It's a painful thing. People don't like it. You say that people should suck it up and hope for the best. Or at least have fun with the heartache just because the feel good type things came before it. That doesn't make sense, either.

Anyways, I get what you're trying to say about suicide, but it's still craziness. Too extreme. You're trying to help me by telling me to kill myself. Thanks a lot. :rolleyes: just because I happen to know that love is bad and I don't feel like being stupid and allowing myself to run into heartache. It is possible to have all kinds of fun with life while avoiding the worst kind of ache. Other types of ache are easier to deal with. Also, there are ways to deal with other types of ache, too. I'm just sticking with heartache.

[Eriol]

It's called "teaching by paradox", Yay; I like it very much. Just as you are trying to teach me by logic, I am trying to teach you by paradoxes. Love is superfluous, or it is not love; and it is necessary, because without love, we do not really live. We just stumble along. It is the purpose of life (*insert scary soundtrack*).

If you get to the end of your life and you have discovered the cure for cancer, won ten Olympic medals, and made 1 billion dollars, you have done absolutely nothing compared to a guy who loved, truly loved, once; and it does not matter whether he got the girl or not. If he truly loved, he will keep on loving until his death; and he will be a happier man than you, regardless of the heartache. And perhaps most importantly, he will be a more fulfilled man, a man who came closer to doing what he should have done with his life.

Talk about paradoxes now ;).

As for the suicidal reasoning, as I said earlier, it applies only if you want to keep yourself free of ALL pain; if you are afraid only of heartache, then your fear is simply misguided. You have to experience it to judge it. And it does not help to say that you've seen it in other people; unrequited love is never visible, what you actually see is the side feelings, which are NOT love. Just as the pet example showed -- people have misguided conceptions about love, and it shows, most especially when their love is unfulfilled. You are basing your judgment on these misguided conceptions.

Anyway -- even if love were the most hurtful thing in the planet, it would still be the only thing absolutely necessary (because it is the only thing absolutely superfluous). It would still be the purpose of life (*soundtrack*).

You either see it or you don't -- logic can't help you there. Only paradoxes can do the trick, for it involves perception, and not reasoning. You have to look at life from another angle to perceive it. But it is there.

[YayGollum]

No. People should use their brains. Self-preservation is good. You should not risk pain. Logic is good. Pay attention to it. You don't have to mess around with the meaning of life. Who cares about getting nice and fulfilled and meaningful? That first guy you were talking about definitely seemed like he had fun. I doubt that that guy didn't get to run into any kind of pain that made his life meaningful. You just have this crazy opinion that says that this certain kind of pain is really good for you for some insane reason. There is no good reason to allow yourself to run right into that much pain. Yay for broken records! Especially the type that help. You are tossing bad suggestions at people. Why? Logic is good. :eek:

[Eriol]

Logic is great; I am very logical. As I said, it is a matter of perception. You either see it or you don't. If you saw it, you'd agree with me for my point of view is very logical, once you see it. Since I hope that one day you will see it, someday you will agree with me.

[The-Elf-Herself]

Yeah, it IS all a matter of perception. Still, I really fail to see what loving and losing someone can really add to your life. It's just 'wow, I did that, and this really bad circumstance was the result.' How is that in any way, shape, or form beneficial to you? You say that a fear of heartbreak is misguided; I agree, I don't fear it, I simply weigh the odds of any kind of love lasting, find that they're stacked against that, and avoid it, as I certainly don't need any more complications in my life. It's an eminently logical decision. Perhaps if the highly improbably happens, I may agree with you at some distant future point, but as of now, I do not. You can lead a fulfilled and meaningful life without romantic love, requited or unrequited, revealed or kept private. Many people have done so and many people will continue to do so.

[e.Blackstar]

I think that love is agood thing, because without love, where would this world be?! But I think that when a person my age(13) says "I love him/her" that is just pure bull. My friend's sisters say that they have crushes and think that people are 'hot' and cal them their 'hunky men'. Sad, isnt it? The thing is, they are nine and six years young. Pathetic.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by The-Elf-Herself
It's just 'wow, I did that, and this really bad circumstance was the result.' How is that in any way, shape, or form beneficial to you?

No. Love is not something "you do". It is something you choose. There is a difference; when you do something, it is external, outside you; it barely touches your being. When you make a choice, you rearrange your life; choice, indeed, begins at the innermost portions of your soul. When you choose love, you become a different person; and this remains with you whatever happens later. And, more alarmingly, when you don't choose love, you also become a different person; and this remains with you whatever happens later.

It all comes back to the Socratic "No evil can happen to a good man". Circumstances are not important; what is important is that you be a good person, and only love can make you that. The best you can do without love is t