Judging round 4-Outcasts vs. Periaurs

[Gil-Galad]

The judges are:

Gil-Galad-Host,The Guild of Tolkienology

Inderjit S-The Scholar's Hall

Bethelarien-The Guild of Elves

Arvedui-The Guild of Ost-in-Edhil

??????

(ithrynluin has not confirmed whether he will be a judge in this round).

[Nóm]

Thanks for your time everyone! Periaur, Host and judges.


But GG, ithrynluin will be away (utterly away!) until mid-August.

Not easy finding judges outside of the guilds, I imagine.

And isn't Inder wasted on this confined to LotR topic? ;)

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Nóm
Thanks for your time everyone! Periaur, Host and judges.


But GG, ithrynluin will be away (utterly away!) until mid-August.

Not easy finding judges outside of the guilds, I imagine.

And isn't Inder wasted on this confined to LotR topic? ;)

I'm sorry to hear that Ithy is away,that means I should find another judge who is outside the Guild, pretty difficult thing,you are right.

I begged Inderjit S and he reconsidered his position,so he will find some time to judge this debate.I want to thank him about that.

[Gil-Galad]

First of all I would like to say that I didn't expect such lack of interest and participation.I do not know why happened so,whether because of the topic or because of something else.Anyway.

The GoP started in a very good way,snaga1's post was really impressive.He determined what will GoP use in order to prove they are right.:
The most obvious contribution is that of Aragorn, who amongst other things by challenging Sauron via the palantir drew forth the attack on Gondor before Sauron was ready, and then defeated the Corsairs and turned their fleet against Mordor. Without this the crucial battle of Pelennor would have been lost.

More than this he saved the hobbits from losing the Ring to the Nazgul on the road to Rivendell. And then led the Fellowship from Moria onwards (contrast to Boromir of Gondor's contribution!)

(2) The rangers of Arnor, last of the Dunedain. We must not forget the watch that the Rangers set about the Shire that protected the secret of the Ring from the servants of the enemy.

(3) The hobbits. The hobbits were subjects of Arnor who acknowledged the authority of the King at Fornost. Consider the contribution of these Arnorians!
- Finding the Ring by Bilbo
- Stirring up of the Ents by Merry and Pippin, so bringing about the defeat of Saruman, and thus the Ride of the Rohirrim
- The Downfall of the Witch-King, at the hands of Merry

After that point I thought GoP would do their best to defend what Snaga1 wrote.
But something else happened.GoP tried to show all mistakes Gondorians did.They almost stated that Gondor was even responsible for all bad things which happened.......... .And they missed their aim-to prove that Arnorians did a great work.They just forgot that they were writing not about that Gondorians were guilty for everything,but that Arnorians contributed most.
At the same time Nym(I wonder why only she took part?!) answered in the best way to some of Periaur's attacks(see Saruman's question,for exampe).
What is more,she found the right way for her side.That Gondorians did the groundwork.She could even use more prooves from the years before the war,in order to prove the whole contribution of Gondor.The topic of the debate concerned the whole TA.
I would like to note also that she put it very well :
Gondor at the front against the Haradrim and men of the east during the third age protected the rest of Middle-earth, which allowed them to be able to contribute in the WotR.

And where would Arnor have been without Gondor down there.

What can I say in conclusion?GoP really performed very good,but they just missed to develop the things which Snaga1 posted,and started attacking Gondor's contribution.Thus they forget to prove Arnorians' bigger contribution.At the same time Nym answered in the best way to most of Periaur's attacks.
I think GoO performed better,I give this debate to them.
And I would like to say that I'm deeply impressed by Nym's performance.:)

[Bethelarien]

First of all, I would like to say that I'm honored to judge this debate. (Though now that I've read through it several times, it seems like more of a curse.) Second, I'm very much impressed with Nom. I know how difficult it is to debate alone, having done so myself. I was rather tempted to just give my vote to her simply because she did so well by herself, but that wouldn't be fair, now would it? ;) But, whether or not Nom wins this, she has certainly won my even deeper respect.

Now down to business. :D

Both the GoP and the GoO did very well, in my opinion. It was very difficult for me to pick a side, and I didn't want to call it a draw, so I had to pick one. :rolleyes: So, here we go.

I think the Periaur started off very well, and I'm in complete agreement with Gil-Galad's comment about Snaga's post. It was very well done, and really set the stage. Nom's post was also good, though I failed to see the correlation some of her points had with the topic. Fortunately for Nom, though, her debating skyrocketed, while the GoP's took a plummet.

As Gil-Galad mentioned, the Periaur concentrated on trying to discredit Gondor, rather than building up their arguments for Arnor. This really weakened their stance. On the other hand, Nom continued to shoot down the GoP's points while strengthening her own position.

Truly an amazing debate, though I am also disappointed in the lack of participation. I thought the GoE/D team was the only one dealing with that! ;) Again, well done to all. My vote goes to the GoO, along with a great deal of respect.

[Arvedui]

Congratulations both to the Periaur and to Nóm.

I find this debate to be most interesting, as both teams provided lots of quotes and views, both those that could be expected, and also those unlooked for.

IMO, the Periaur came off with a very good start, while Nóm needed some time to figure out her view, but when she did, she did good. Legolam then, IMO, gave away a free point to Nóm by declaring that Isildur was Gondorian, thus allowing Nóm to bring the Oathbreakers in to the debate, a point that could have worked very well for the Periaur when combined with the line of Valandil as they put forth as their first argument.

The Periaur would have profited from exploiting their own points of view, instead of attacking Nóm's. Still, I find it hard to decide which side put forth the better arguments, as both teams performed very well.

A draw.

[Aulë]

Could Inderjit S and the unknown Neutral judge please post their judgment as soon as possible.

I want Round 4 to be wrapped up as quickly as possible.

[YayGollum]

Ack! I already told the Confusticated and Gil-Galad people that I am an evil person and feel bad about it every now and then. I had excuses for not posting in that debate. I'll admit that they're not good excuses since I know I'm such an evil person. I had things to say in the debate but wasn't able to. Argh! oh well.

[Inderjit S]

Just like to congratulate everyone on a impressive debate and one which I am rather proud to say is my idea, or that I gave this question to Maedhros. Although the Periaur argue very well, I must go with Nom’s argument that Gondor was the more influential of the two. Periaur, though you argue that Saruman’s role in the WoTR was negative, you fail to see that without Gondor’s influence in putting Saruman in Isengard, there would be no delay for Gandalf and he would have taken Sam and Frodo (Not Merry and Pippin, since they entered the scenario late on) to Rivendell-but this would have drastically altered the course of the WoTR, and the same goes for the force of Uruk-hai that captured Merry and Pippin-as Gandalf comments all these events led for Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli to meet him at the right time and for the Ents to be aroused. (hehe) You must also look at Gondor’s protection of the Hobbits (though it was indirectly) when they resided in the Vale of Anduin and thereabouts and they helped stem the tide of Easterlings, which eventually together with the rise of Dol Guludur caused the Hobbits to flee to Arnor and the Shire. Plus the fact that Minas Tirith and Gondor were the distractions that Gandalf needed in order for Frodo to reach Mount Doom, remember all Mordor was emptied Sauron’s eye was diverted and he excepted a attack with the ring from Gondor, which allowed for the quest to succeed.

But then again, as Legolam and to a point, Snaga so vehemently argue, Arnor kept the line of Isildur alive and the Hobbits in a safe haven, hence Aragorn, Bilbo and Frodo plus the other Hobbits of the Fellowship, and without that-they had no chance. Aragorn also captured Gollum, a central element of the story. But for me, though initially going for Periaur, the excellent basis of Nom’s arguments and the (sorry to say this) shirt-sightedness at times of some of Periaur’s posts, esp. concerning Saruman and Boromir’s so called hindrance or derailing of the quest-when he in fact set in order what was to happen, Frodo and Sam were to flee to Mordor alone, that was the only way of success. They wouldn’t need Gollum as a guide with Aragorn on their side. (Remember in his plans Aragorn was to go to Mordor, though Pippin objected, the ensuing argument may have allowed for the Uruk-hai to capture them. Also no Gondor meant no purpose for Aragorn.)

[Gil-Galad]

I hope that FOAT will be the last judge!

[Aulë]

Could FoolOfATook please be swift with his judgement?
He is holding up Round 4.
:)

[FoolOfATook]

Here I am. Better late than never, as I'm sure the Gaffer said at some point...

Since I seem to be holding up the debate, I'll cut to the chase and cast my vote as a draw. I think the GoP probably had the easier side to argue, but in choosing to focus more on quibbling over Nom's points rather than building their own points failed to decisively win the debate.

I think that sentence made sense, anyway- I'm trying to get this down quickly so Aule will leave me be. ;)

As for Nom, who's solo performance was impressive, I don't think she was able to prove the over-riding importance of "groundwork" that she seemed to cast her lot with.

[Gil-Galad]

It seems that we are ready with the judging Aule!
I'm glad to annonuce everythig about this debate is over.