Fourth Round Judging Thread For The Dwarf And elf And Scholar Types!

[YayGollum]

Here ya go. The judges (as far as I can remember) --->

BlackCaptain
chrysophalax
Gil-Galad
Legolam
YayGollum

I'll stick my decision in here later. Am busy.

[Nóm]

Good read! Thanks everyone for providing us with this debate.

I have never been so moved to type up a judgement as I was when reading this debate. Well can't say too much wouldn't want to get GoO in trouble because it looks like I am attempting to influence the judges ;).

It is a shame to see this debate had to end when it did as there was much more that probably would have been said if it was allowed to continue.

Now I am dying to post my commentary on this most interesting debate. I will post it after the judges have posted.

[Gil-Galad]

I'll post my commentary in Monday or Tuesday.

[Scatha]

Looking forward to reading your commentary, Nom, they are such a delight to read. :)

[omnipotent_elf]

Nom, remember the compliment when writing your comments ;)

[BlackCaptain]

Well I have to critisize the Elves and Dwarves for picking the side they did... I thought from the start that it was mortality was the greatest gift because if there weren't any men, Middle Earth, which is half of Arda, would be in ruins, because all the Elves would be leaving. But I'm not gona start any new debates over that.

Very strong debating from both sides... Feanorian, Elendil, Beth, and Scatha... wonderfully done.

Too many thoughts running through my head... so many ups and downs; pros and cons of each side debated on... But in the end I have to go with the Scholars on this one. Lots of reasons... Diversity is key, free will and not a pre-determined fate... It just seems like the right answer, and the debating was too close for me to make a decision strictly from the debaters.

[YayGollum]

My vote goes to the scholar types. It seemed to me to be that they used more facts and were getting just as confused as I was about some of the things the other people said. oh well. Was the topic not worded very well? Because it was supposed to be one side saying that one gift was better than the other and the other side proving that the opposite was true. oh well. Not a huge deal. *bawls* You people just got around to one aspect of that, I guess.

[Legolam]

I thought this was a great debate!! The topic in particular was well thought out and controversial enough. And both sides were argued excellently, as I will try to explain.

When I first read it, I thought of all the things Scatha put forward in his/her (sorry, I don't know you!) first post (the Numenorian thing, melkor's influence etc. Therefore, I was sort of on their side to begin with.

Then Feanorian did a great job of getting me to see that Men are different from Elves in so many ways, and immortality for both wouldn't be a good thing. In particular, I was swayed by the fact that Men would still be weak if theywere immortal.

I read the debate from there thinking that I'd vote for the Scholars. However, Elendil and Beth's contributions struck a chord with me again. Therefore, my vote will be for a draw. I know it's a cop-out, but i really couldn't separate the sides. Well done to everyone!!

[Elendil3119]

I'd like to thank Yay for a fun topic, and especially Scatha and Beth for providing a fun debate! :) I had a lot of fun with this one, and I only wish it could have gone on longer.

[Scatha]

Well, Elendil, you won't hear any arguement from me there.
Even though we sometimes wondered what we were debating, we sure had fun doing it. :)

[YayGollum]

Thanks, dudes. I'm always happy to entertain. Why can't we just turn this thing into a normal discussion and stick it in the The Sil. section or something like that? Well, the Gil-Galad person said that he'd stick his decision in here tonight. I'll rant at the chrysophalax lady.

[Scatha]

Thanks Yay, you do that and we'll talk about re-doing this discussion in the Sil-section. :)

[Nóm]

Such a topic already exists in the Sil forum. It has not been posted in for months though (over a year I think). I have it in my subscribed threads... one of those threads I've always thought about bringing up, but never got around to.

But it might be better to start a new one since that other discussion was not going in the same direction as this debate did.

I'll give everyone the link when the judgement for this is over so then you guys can use it if you want to, or just start another.

[Elendil3119]

There's already the Númenorean Lifespan one, but that doesn't focus specifically on the Athrabeth. I think it would be fun to have a discussion about the Athrabeth in particular: "Who was right? Finrod, or Andreth?" We didn't really get too in-depth into the Athrabeth in this debate.

[Nóm]

The Belief of Men (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=5381)

Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth - An Impomptu Discussion (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=7387)

The Edain - The Twice Fallen? (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=9142)

Those are a few of the threads with some discussion touching on The Tale of Adanel, or Andreth's belief vs. Finrod's belief. The topic of this debate was not the original question in any of those threads though. In that first one Maedhros asks about Morgoth using this belief of men to his advantage, but somehow a bunch of people answered another question, and their answers (to the question that was not asked) touch of the idea of "Who was right, Finrod or Andreth?"

There are a few other Athrabeth threads out there too though, but they don't really look at "Who was right?".

[Scatha]

I must admit that I have never read the Athrabeth, is that one of the HoME books?

[Elendil3119]

Originally posted by Scatha
I must admit that I have never read the Athrabeth, is that one of the HoME books?
Yes, it is in HoMe 10, which is the most interesting volume of HoMe that I have read yet.

[Gil-Galad]

First of all, I would like to thank both teams for the wonderful and even pationate debate and the nice atmosphere that was created during it.The teams showed very calm and sensible thoughts and analysis and most praiseworthily defended the honour of their Guild.

To start with,let me introduce the strongest and most influential posts of both teams.

The Guild of Elves and Dwarves had the difficult job of defending the statement that mortality,given to Men as a gift, was worse than immortality.They did,however,present many good points and did everything possible to defend their side.I much appreciate the pationate character of their team that the members created and the devotion with which they debated.

Man, according to elves were shortlived. they gained their mental strength through wisdom and age. Without this possibility for Man, can you really prove that Man wouldn't have been wiser and more powerful of will?? If we were to live for over centuries, like the elves, wouldn't we be wiser and have more strength of will, knowing we are immortal??


This post made by Scatha reveals a very strong point which does relate to our days and life. It is indeed true and this cannot be argued.Nevertheless,mortality and immortality have different aspects.It is not only a matter of wisdom because even wisdom is sometimes unwelcome and too responsible.It is also a matter of patience and type of character.Men definetely would be wiser if immortal,or at least most of them,but would they have the same character and patience to live eternally?

Feanorean, you are making the same point over and over, which we had already discarded in our previous post. Ignorant, btw is spelled with just one G.
Man would have evolved differently, if they had been immortal. This is something you cannot seem to grasp, as you are still trying to debate the present state of Man. With their fates linked to the world, as the elves do, they certainly would have been more alike the elves. When your fate is linked to the Earth itself, you tend to protect it more, thus would Man have if their fate was the same as that of the Elves.
Now you can of course start to argue again that Man is not like that, but you keep forgetting that we state that they WOULD have been different then they are now, if they had shared the same faith as the elves. Unless you can refute that statement, that Man would not have evolved a different way, there's hardly any point to keep bringing up the current ways of Man, as they would not apply in that case.


Again Scatha for the Guild of Elves/Dwarves states a very well prepared,precise post which calmly and firmly argues the Schoolars' side and attitude towards the topic.They also create a kind of firm but serious respect towards their opponents,which is praiseworthy.However,I should point that Men and Elves,as the Schoolars stated in the debate, were DIFFERENT races. They did have DIFFERENT characters and were DIFFERENTLY created with DIFFERENT purpose. Therefore, we cannot say that 'with their fates linked to the world, as the elves do, Men certainly would have been more alike the elves.' It is a very delicate area which would probably never reach a final decision

They could also die in battles.
that means that elves had a "get out" card. They get the best of both worlds. They can live a long and fruitful life, and when it got all too much they could die. When they felt the pain of losing a close loved one, they wound't have had to deal with it. Elves were mortal too(only in a MUCH lesser extant than humans). As such, elves could live long and fruitful lives, and when they got (damn cliche's) "tired" of the world, they could leave it. Men on the other hand, didnt get the luxury. When they wanted to live longer lives, they had no choice.


A very strong and almost impossibly refutative post by Omnipotent_elf.He looks at the topic from a different point of view and makes extremely valuable conclussions.

Men were not inferior to the Elves at all, but merely did not have the time to gather wisdom due to their timeconstraint. On top of that, they had nothing to look forward to after their lives ended, which is hardly anything to envy.... whether by Valar or Elves.


Another very good point by Scatha.However,as the Schoolars stated later in the debate, Tolkien himself hinted about something that Men could look forward after their Earth life.

Here is the proper time to congratulate Beth for her wonderful participation in the debate although not so active.Nevertheless, she made extremely valuable and strong points.


Now as for the Guild of Schoolars,I should say that they kept the respective atmosphere towards their opponents which should honour every debator.They also,however,held the debate with a very firm and unprejudiced atmosphere.I find this very important for a successful debate.

Men did not have the same mindset as Elves. Men were looking for power Elves were looking for a better understanding. The only thing that would result in men being immortal is more wars and destruction. Because the hearts of men were weaker whether they lived forever or not there still would have been evil men and good men.


That's a very very strong point by Feanorian.He defends the idea I presented a bit above.

First of all, I would like to make a vital point to this debate. The Ainulindale from The Silmarillion clearly shows that Eru is infallible. If he was fallible, he would not be God! Thus, Eru's ordination of the fate of Men was infallible.


This points which Elendil3119 makes is absolutely and most unrefutative.Very good point of view.

Also a point which would probably defend the side of the Schoolars is that if you are mortal then you can be released from your sins before you die. While the immortal Elves have no such opportunity.

Apparently you are forgetting about the intrusion of Melkor when Men first awoke. As is explained in the Tale of Adanel, at the awakening of Men, Melkor appeared to them and taught them many wonderful and amazing things, and in time, Men took Melkor to be their lord. In time, they came to trust him so much that when he ordered them to worship him, they did. Melkor required the giving of gifts, and after a while, Men were in complete subjection to him. The consequence of this was Eru's wrath:


The first Voice we never heard again, save once. In the
stillness of the night It spoke, saying: 'Ye have abjured Me, but
ye remain Mine. I gave you life. Now it shall be shortened, and
each of you in a little while shall come to Me, to learn who is
your Lord: the one ye worship, or I who made him.' ('The Tale of Adanel', HoMe10)

The Men brought Eru's wrath upon themselves.

purposes.Elves could have been 'taken over' by Melkor too if were found and pumpered by Him before the Valar. It was the attention they received and by WHOM they received it that matters.

I would also like to say that the closing post of the Guild of Schoolars was much more backed up and precisely done than the one of the Guild of Elves/Dwarves.
A very good and strong point made by Elendil3119 is:

Also, in this (‘Ye have abjured Me, but ye remain Mine. I gave you life. Now it shall be shortened…..’) quote from the Tale of Adanel, it is not stated that Eru withdrew the gift of immortality; rather, it is said that he shortened the lifespan of Men, implying that Men once had longer lifespans, but not that they were immortal.


To sum up,I should say that the members of the Guild of Schoolars backed up their points and side better than the Guild of Elves/Dwarves which,actually,did not present a quote which says firmly that 'death/mortality is not good.'The Schoolars stated many qoutes even from the Proffessor himself that defend their side. Although the members of the Elven Guild presented very well and had many strong points,as a whole,the Schoolars definetely defended better their side and kept a very firm and respectful atmosphere.This,however,was done by both teams for which I should thank them.It is honourably delightful to read a debate which participants respect themselves.
Finally,I want to repeat that I appreciate a bit more the way the Guild of Schoolars kept the debate goes on for the reasons I stated above.Therefore, I give the debate to the Guild of Schoolars.

Once again a lot of regards for both teams for the lovely debate and presentation.Thank you it was an honour for me to judge it.

[Scatha]

Originally posted by BlackCaptain
Very strong debating from both sides... Feanorian, Elendil, Beth, and Scatha... wonderfully done.

Too many thoughts running through my head... so many ups and downs; pros and cons of each side debated on... But in the end I have to go with the Scholars on this one. Lots of reasons... Diversity is key, free will and not a pre-determined fate... It just seems like the right answer, and the debating was too close for me to make a decision strictly from the debaters.


Ok, having discussed this among my team, we are formally protesting against this vote by BC.

If a vote cannot be decided by judging the debators only, the sole possible vote should be a draw. Anything other then that is simply not acceptable, nor impartial.

[YayGollum]

Well, reading the guy's post, it looks like he wasn't too confused about what his choice was. What's confusing to the people that didn't write his post is that thing he tossed in at the end. If he has lots of reasons to write down about why he voted for the scholar types, I don't get why he'd also write that things were too close to decide. He obviously decided. I'm guessing that the guy was just tossing compliments at everybody. Saying that they all debated equally well, but the points tossed at him by the scholar types turned the tide. It is possible to debate equally well and still have an obvious winner. oh well. I guess I'll just call this person's attention to this thread again.

[Scatha]

The way it is stated, Yay, implies personal reasons for the decision on the vote, which is not what a judge is supposed to do.

The decision is to be made based solely on the debate and it's participants, impartially and without taking in account of personal preference.

That is the task of a judge.

[YayGollum]

No, really? :rolleyes: Well, I PMed the BlackCaptain person about this. It seems to me to be that the person just worded things in a weird way. What took you so long to notice this, anyways? oh well. Shall wait for this BlackCaptain person to show up.

[BlackCaptain]

I've been away! I'm sorry!

I'm not sure what is in question, but my judging is based on this:

Both teams debated wonderfuly, with great counters and strong points to and for each team. But the Elves and Dwarves decsion to choose the side they did is what swayed my decision.

I think I see the problem now... I didnt mean the debators were the reason my decision was the way it was. I shouldn't have said that... I meant the debating and arguing was so good, and too close for me to call by myself, I went with the decision made by the Elves and Dwarves mistakingly made (In my opionion, which is what a judge does. Gives his/her opinion) and took Kudos away; Leaving the Scholars not necsesarily the better team, but the team with the least mistakes; rendering them the winners in my eyes.

I'm not sure if I cleared anything up with that... If I didnt let's discuss it here further. But I won't be able to reply until tomarow evening (It's 8:45 where I am)

[YayGollum]

Well, here's what the Scatha person wrote ---> If a vote cannot be decided by judging the debators only, the sole possible vote should be a draw. Anything other then that is simply not acceptable, nor impartial.

You said you were confused. Anyways, now that I see your explanation, I think that you should have gone for a draw. You're saying that the debators debated equally well, but that you just didn't like the side they chose. Sounds like you had your own opinion on the subject and when you saw that they chose the side you didn't like, you decided that they made a mistake. Unless you still don't think you've explained yourself enough and can show why the scholar types definitely won.

[chrysophalax]

*I flew all the way from MERPG and boy, are my wings tired!*


Kudos to the Guild of Scholars for even being able to keep focussed on the...uh...interestingly worded topic.

Feanorian held my attention from his first post and Elendil...my!
How can you disagree with outlines as tight as those? Impressive presentation!

I was more than a little distracted by the way the topic in question seemed to vary from post to post until Elendil brought a refreshing dash of clarity back to the debate.

To the participants of GoD/E team...better luck next time with your topic!

One vote here for the Scholars!

[Nóm]

Hooray... all the judgements are in! :D

Here's my unofficial say:

***************
I've deleted what I said since the jugements are not in.

[YayGollum]

Well, no, not all of the votes are in yet, but it looks like this BlackCaptain person knows what he's decided and just can't explain it satisfactorily. *waits for the BlackCaptain person to show up*

[Scatha]

Perhaps a PM might speed that up?

[Feanorian]

He's on vacation.

[Scatha]

Ahh.

Nice avvie you got there, feanorian. ;)

[Feanorian]

I have another problem with BC's judgement. He has transferred to the guild of Tolk but he is still on the offical team list for the Scholars...which would make his judgement void. Unless of course it doesnt make a difference which list hes on....I guess it just needs changed.

Like I said he is on vacation even though posted a day ago or so, I read in Member Announcements I believe that he only had one opurtunity to post...so he should post more later.



Nice avvie you got there, feanorian.

Thanks, its the Honorable Mandos :D

[YayGollum]

Too bad about that. oh well. I already PMed the guy. Anyways, the guy said he wasn't a part of any of the teams anymore. I thought it was okay. If his name is still on one of the lists, it doesn't seem to me to be that he feels like acknowledging it. Has decided to be neutral.

[Anamatar IV]

"I have been unable to post on the forum due to technical difficulties regarding my email adress. I will return as soon as possible to clear all things up.

Concerning the debate, I see now the mistake that I made, and judged wrongly, but un-intentionly made the error. I was obviously unsure as to the job that a judge had to do, and judged a wrong part of the debate: the side the team decided to be on... er something like that. I change my vote to netrual, and apologize for my mistake. I was not trying to be corrupt or anything like that, hehe, I was just unsure in my mind what I was judging.

Sorry for the confusion! And great job all debators! You made my job too hard! Which obviously shows the degree of debating us TTFers can achieve. I hope to be back soon...

BC

PS - I did in fact remove myself from the debates. Although I might now add myself back onto the GoS' side. These debates seem fun when you finaly get a chance to judge one, no matter how bad of a judge you are :rolleyes::D

I am a member of the Tolkienologists and Scholars... But if I do any debating it will be for the Scholars, if that is 'legal'


Sorry again, sorry for all the delays, and good bye!"