Debate Tournament - Round 5: Tolkienology vs. Elves/Dwarves

[Aulë]

Greetings, debators of Tolkienology and Guild of Elves/Dwarves. I shall be hosting this Round 5 debate between yourselves.
This debate shall run for one week from the opening post.
The Tolkienologists shall choose their stance, since they are the 'home' Guild.

Could both teams please put forward their teams of 4 debators before I commence, and post the topic.
(Preferabaly in the next 24 hours).

The judges shall be:

Periaur - Aulë
Scholars - Maedhros
OiE - chrysophylax
Outcasts - Nóm
Neutral - Talierin

[Lhunithiliel]

Hey! It's good to see you back, grumpy Vala! ;) :D

Here is our Team # 5:

Finduilas
Beleg
Lantarion
Anamatar


Good luck to both teams!

[Scatha]

Here's the team for the GoE:

Scatha
Bethelarien
Omnipotent_Elf
*ghost* ;)

[Aulë]

TOPIC:

Edit: Topic changed, see below

[Maedhros]

I have been asked for a clarification, so give me a little time to make it clearer, I'm kind of busy at the moment.
P.S. The topic is vague on purpose.

[Scatha]

To be honest, the vague topic we already had in the last round, I really think that that sufficed.

[Maedhros]

This is why I wanted to explore with this topic:
The fellowship has arrived in Lothlórien, Gandalf is gone, and the Fellowship seems in disarray. Some want to go to Gondor, while others to Mordor.
And then either Galadriel or Teleporno (I think it's Galadriel that says it:)
But even now there is hope left. I will not give you counsel, saying do this, or do that. For not in doing or contriving, nor in choosing between this course and another, can I avail; but only in knowing what was and is, and in part also what shall be. But this I will say to you: your Quest stands upon the edge of a knife. Stray but a little and it will fail, to the ruin of all. Yet hope remains while all the Company is true.'
The two paths that I would like to see cover are:
Was the quest achieved by them? and Did the fellowship stay true?
I hope that this clarifies it.

Originally posted by Scatha
To be honest, the vague topic we already had in the last round, I really think that that sufficed.
I find that vague or open topics are the best for debates, because it gives the people involved a greater scope in which to find arguments and lessens the obvious right side of a Topic, that is why I try to come up with such questions.
Having said so, If you would like another topic question then just say so.

[Scatha]

That is indeed what I would like, Maedhros.
This topic is too open for interpretation.

I have little doubt that my fellow teammembers will agree with me.

[Maedhros]

Ok, but it will take time.

[Beleg]

I feel okay with this topic, but I don't know about my other team members.

But what to be done with this topic?

Should We proceed with an opening statement or does the host want to change the topic?

[Maedhros]

I have pm Aulë a new topic. He will post it later. If both Guilds are ok with that, you can start debating.
Ignore the first topic.

[Aulë]

The New Topic is:
From The Lord of the Rings: The Council of Elrond
`I will take the Ring,' he said, `though I do not know the way.'
Elrond raised his eyes and looked at him, and Frodo felt his heart pierced by the sudden keenness of the glance. `If I understand aright all that I have heard,' he said, `I think that this task is appointed for you, Frodo; and that if you do not find a way, no one will.
Was Frodo succesful in his Quest to destroy the Ring?

[Beleg]

Well ladies and Gentlemen; Let's began.

The question asked is,

Was Frodo succesful in his Quest to destroy the Ring?
Based on the following Quote,
`I will take the Ring,' he said, `though I do not know the way.'
Elrond raised his eyes and looked at him, and Frodo felt his heart pierced by the sudden keenness of the glance. `If I understand aright all that I have heard,' he said, `I think that this task is appointed for you, Frodo; and that if you do not find a way, no one will.

From The Lord of the Rings: The Council of Elrond

The topic is Was Frodo successful in his Quest to destroy the Ring? not Was the Fellowship successful in their Quest.

My Teammates and I'll be proving the side that Frodo was not successful in his Quest to destroy the Ring.
Let's first record what was expected of Frodo as decided in the Council of Elrond,
Frodo, upon his own request was choosen as the Ringbearer.
Frodo Volunteers,
`I will take the Ring,' he said, `though I do not know the way.'

He is choosen as the RingBearer,

'nothing was decided beyond choosing poor Frodo and Sam

The task that has been appointed to him is to destroyt the Ring. Elrond says it quite clearly,

'The Ring-bearer is setting out on the Quest of Mount Doom. On him alone is any charge laid: neither to cast away the Ring, nor to deliver it to any servant of the Enemy nor indeed to let any handle it, save members of the Company and the Council, and only then in gravest need.
Thus there is no questioning the fact that Frodo's quest was to destroy the Ring by throwing it into the Cracks of Doom at Mount Doom.
Thus Frodo was explictly instructed that his Quest was to reach Mount Doom and then destroying the ring by throwing it in Mount Orodium. I am repeating this because I want all of you to understand the gravity of the situation.
Now the failure or the success of Frodo is an objective issue and can be proven or unporven through Quotes.
And as I believe there is ample proof for us, both is form of Quotes and conjecture to believe that Frodo failed in his Quest; of destroying the Ring.
Nothing can be more athorotative and final then the Author's own words,

And in Letter's of J.R.R.Tolkien dear Ronald says,

Fail it[Quest] would and did as far as Frodo considered alone was concerned.
From letter No, 181.
The author says quite clearly, without any imbiguity that the Frodo's part of the Quest failed, so will one now argue with the writer?


And yet we have further evidance. A pretty simple pattern really.
Let us examine what really happens in the Chapter Mount Doom at Mount Doom.

The first signs of Frodo scucumbing to the power of the Ring in The Chapter Mount Doom can be seen in the fight between Frodo and Gollum on the way to the cracks of doom.

Down, down!’ he gasped, clutching his hand to his breast, so that beneath the cover of his leather shirt he clasped the Ring. ‘Down you creeping thing, and out of my path! Your time is at an end. You cannot betray me or slay me now.’
Then suddenly, as before under the eaves of the Emyn Muil, Sam saw these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, scarcely more than the shadow of a living thing, a creature now wholly ruined and defeated, yet filled with a hideous lust and rage; and before it stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice.
‘Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.’

The image though seen through Sam's prespection, is a clear notion of what exactly was going on with Frodo at that time.
The power of Ring was prevailing over his will and was forcing him to claim the Ring for his own, and thus ruin the whole purpose of the Fellowship.
The Ring was aware that it had reached the land of its Master, Mordor, and that If someone claimed it, its master would definately be notified, and in the land of Mordor, one even with the ring, could not dare fight against the power of the Dark Lord for long, and In the end Sauron would be able to acquire the Ring, thus ruining the whole purpose of the fellowship and entirely smotting the plans and hopes of the North-Western Portion of Middle-Earth.
And this aftercome wasn't certianly the thing for which the Council choose and sent Frodo.
And Indeed It all would have happened If it weren't had been for Gollum.

Then Sam saw that he was in a long cave or tunnel that bored into the Mountain’s smoking cone. But only a short way ahead its floor and the walls on either side were cloven by a great fissure, out of which the red glare came, now leaping up, now dying down into darkness; and all the while far below there was a rumour and a trouble as of great engines throbbing and labouring.
The light sprang up again, and there on the brink of the chasm, at the very Crack of Doom, stood Frodo, black against the glare, tense, erect, but still as if he had been turned to stone.
‘Master!’ cried Sam.
Then Frodo stirred and spoke with a clear voice, indeed with a voice clearer and more powerful than Sam had ever heard him use, and it rose above the throb and turmoil of Mount Doom, ringing in the roof and walls.
‘I have come,’ he said. ‘But I do not choose now to do what I came to do. I will not do this deed. The Ring is mine!’ And suddenly, as he set it on his finger, he vanished from Sam’s sight. Sam gasped, but he had no chance to cry out, for at that moment many things happened.

As soon as Frodo claimed the Ring as his, Sauron became aware of the presence of Frodo,

And far away, as Frodo put on the Ring and claimed it for his own, even in Sammath Naur the very heart of his realm, the Power in Barad-dûr was shaken, and the Tower trembled from its foundations to its proud and bitter crown. The Dark Lord was suddenly aware of him,

The whole mind and purpose of the Power that wielded them was now bent with overwhelming force upon the Mountain. At his summons, wheeling with a rending cry, in a last desperate race there flew, faster than the winds, the Nazgûl the Ringwraiths, and with a storm of wings they hurtled southwards to Mount Doom.

Look at the situation. Frodo is standing on the brink of the Opening of the fiery chasm, Invisible, half-witted due to weariness and hunger and due to the toils of his journey, not in a rational mind, all of his thoughts finally bent on claiming this ring as his. And the Enemy has sent the most powerful and terrible of its servants; the Nazgul to reclaim the ring from Frodo.
What could Frodo do in such a situation? Surely, he neither had the physical power or the will to try to hide somewhere, he could force the Nazgul to submit to his will because their Nine rings were still held by Sauron and they were still in his command.
Infact he had ruined the whole purpose of the fellowship. This was the worst that could have been achieved, the worst scenario.
Imagine the meagre hosts of the west standing in front of the enormour might of Mordor, commanded by Sauron, who even without the Ring was too strong to be destroyed effectively and yet if he had reclaimed the ring, the Host of the West would have been mincemeat for him. The hopes of the West would have been destroyed, the rule of Sauron would have spread all over the North Western Portion of Middle-earth, and all the fair cities and lives off the free people, those who refuse the leadership of Sauron would be destroyed.
Nothing could be worse then presenting Sauron with the Ring, when the Host of the West were fighting with the host of Sauron; It would be like an attempt to ensure the total destruction of the host.

I am not claiming that Frodo would pass over the ring intentionally, nay he would resist, but would his resistance be of any use? In the state of mind he was, with the ring wholly gripping his wit, the thought of destroying the ring would never once enter his mind.
And all this would have happened, only the intervention[unlooked for and unintentional] of Gollum stopped the clamity that would otherwise had happened if Gollum wouldn't have been present at that time.
But the point I want to make through this is that, Frodo was not able to destroy the ring and scucumbed to the lure of the Will, and although due to the unintentional and unpredictable events the Quest of Destroying the ring was achieved, yet it wasn't Frodo who achieved this objective at the end, because had effectively failed, he had sccucumbed to the lure of the ring, he himself later admits it.

Even Gollum may have something yet to do? But for him, Sam, I could not have destroyed the Ring. The Quest would have been in vain, even at the bitter end. So let us forgive him! For the Quest is achieved, and now all is over.
For Frodo knew that in the end he had failed, and though the Quest had been achieved, it wasn't he, Frodo, who, at the end, finished of the Quest.
We can talk about circumstances behind Gollum's coming and Frodo's treatment of him but the plain fact is Frodo didn't achieve what he was supposed to achieve; given all the circumstances, Frodo failed to fullfill his quest of destroying the ring.

[Eriol]

Let me add some quotes to Beleg's succinct introduction. I call your attention to the sharp distinction between Frodo's success/failure and the Quest's success/failure; a distinction imposed by the wording of the question.

All quotes are from the Letters.

Letter 192

By chance, I have just had another letter regarding the failure of Frodo. Very few seem even to have observed it. But following the logic of the plot, it was clearly inevitable, as an event. And surely it is a more significant and real event than a mere 'fairy-story' ending in which the hero is indomitable? It is possible for the good, even the saintly, to be subjected to a power of evil which is too great for them to overcome -- in themselves. In this case the cause (not the 'hero') was triumphant, because by the exercise of pity, mercy, and forgiveness of injury, a situation was produced in which all was redressed and disaster was averted.(...)

Note that Tolkien makes the same sharp distinction -- between Frodo's failure and the Quest's success. Frodo failed. Check also Letter 181, quoted by Beleg in his post.

Letter 246

Very few (indeed as far as letters go only you and one other) ave observed or commented on Frodo's 'failure'. It is a very important point.

From the point of view of the storyteller the events in Mt. Doom proceed simply from the logic of the tale up to that time. They were not deliberately worked up to nor foreseen until they occurred.* (...)


*Actually, since the events at the Cracks of Doom would obviously be vital to the Tale, I made several sketches or trial versions at various stages in the narrative -- but none of them were used, and none of them much resembled what is actually reported in the finished story

I call your attention to this footnote. Tolkien rejected many other versions, picking rather Frodo's failure, because it reinforces one of the main themes of the tale, that of redemption through mercy and pity (as explained in the quote from Letter 192). If Frodo did NOT fail, then he was NOT redeemed at all; and this is exactly what Tolkien wanted to avoid, the reason why he discarded other versions of the ending.

[omnipotent_elf]

as was quite rightly quoted
The question asked is, Was Frodo succesful in his Quest to destroy the Ring? and the answer was no

and you'll have to excuse me as i will not agree
Frodo was indeed successful.

The guild of elves will be arguing that indeed Frodo did succeed. The ring was destroyed

as the quote that was included states

I think that this task is appointed for you, Frodo; and that if you do not find a way, no one will.

the task was completed. If Frodo did not find a way, nobody would. Indeed, the task was completed so this implicates that Frodo did find a way.

as you stated

The power of Ring was prevailing over his will and was forcing him to claim the Ring for his own, and thus ruin the whole purpose of the Fellowship

but it didnt. Surprisingly(yes, that was sarcasm), the ring was destoryed. Thus Frodo succeeded.

For Frodo knew that in the end he had failed, and though the Quest had been achieved, it wasn't he, Frodo, who, at the end, finished of the Quest.

his quest was to ensure the rings demise. As far as i'm concerned, the ring was destroyed and he escaped alive despite, as the film's suggest "the quest would [sic] consume him". This in itself is a remarkable feat, even if lucky, and as a result Frodo succeeded without the loss of his life.






Very few (indeed as far as letters go only you and one other) have observed or commented on Frodo's 'failure'. It is a very important point.

it was not failure if indeed his aim was succeeded.

as you stated.

If Frodo did NOT fail

thankyou. At least you admit that there is a strong case that he did fail ;)

failure was one of the main themes of the tale

This is not true. Indeed as the letter suggests, failure was not even planned. It was just a co-incidence that Frodo 'failed' (in your opinion, if you call succeeding in your aim failure). Indeed However, his journey was highly successful, with Frodo reaching Mt Moon overcoming all adversery.

[Beleg]

as was quite rightly quoted


The question asked is, Was Frodo succesful in his Quest to destroy the Ring?


and the answer was no

and you'll have to excuse me as i will not agree
Frodo was indeed successful.



Then why are you debating against us mate? If you think Frodo wasn't successful, then their is no dispute between us. [As is shown in your post.]

the task was completed. If Frodo did not find a way, nobody would. Indeed, the task was completed so this implicates that Frodo did find a way.

Wow! So you are taking the word of Elrond as that of Eru Illuvatar! even when he himself isn't sure.
That is merely Elrond's opinion, and an opinion about whose validity he himself isn't sure about.
Frodo found a way of what? Destroying the ring? Sure enough, everyone present in the Council of Elrond knew the way of destroying the ring, so it wouldn't matter.
The task was completed, sure, but by Frodo? No, nope not by Frodo.

but it didnt. Surprisingly(yes, that was sarcasm), the ring was destoryed. Thus Frodo succeeded.

I agree with you mate, when you say the Ring was destroyed, but was It destroyed by Frodo? We have established, with the help of Quotes out of the main text that Frodo's task was to destroy the ring and he simply failed at doing so. So saying that because the ring was destroyed, Frodo succeeded is ridiculus, what were the actions of Frodo at Mount Doom has allready been shown, and what would have been their implications has allready been noted, so one can see for themselves, how much Frodo participated in the [eventual] destruction of the Ring.
And surprisingly [Perhaps for you??] the ring was not destroyed by Frodo, I'll so humbly ask you to read my first post again.

his quest was to ensure the rings demise. As far as i'm concerned, the ring was destroyed and he escaped alive despite, as the film's suggest "the quest would [sic] consume him". This in itself is a remarkable feat, even if lucky, and as a result Frodo succeeded without the loss of his life.

As far as you are concerned this might seem plausible to you, but as far as truth is concerned you are wrong. You say, his quest was to ensure ring's demise. Do you think that by claiming himself as the weilder of the Ring, he thought the Ring would die? Wow!
And If you want to go by the film, then I won't argue mate, because that automatically shows the authanticity of your point and thoughts.


as far as letters go only you and one other) have observed or commented on Frodo's 'failure'. It is a very important point.

it was not failure if indeed his aim was succeeded.

So it seems that you are arguing with Professor Tolkien about this one. No comments.


thankyou. At least you admit that there is a strong case that he did fail

No we don't think that, we think It is an absolute certainity that he failed.
And why thanking us on this one?


Indeed However, his journey was highly successful, with Frodo reaching Mt Moon overcoming all adversery.

So he had made the perilous journey, going through all the dangers, only to reach Mount Doom?
That's a tad bit....difficult to buy man, since all other evidence and I say evidence, whilst yours is an opinion say otherwise.




failure was one of the main themes of the tale

Where did you get this from?

[Scatha]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
failure was one of the main themes of the tale
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Where did you get this from?


Tolkien rejected many other versions, picking rather Frodo's failure, because it reinforces one of the main themes of the tale

Your teammate Eriol stated this, even though not in the same wording. ;)



Now let us examine a simple fact:
Gollum fell into the fires of the Orodruin, while holding a finger, that still wore the ring. This finger belonged to Frodo and the ring was still around it. Technically therefor the hobbit succeeded in his quest and was the last person ever to wear the ring, as Gollum had no time to put it on, as he stumbled across the ledge that led to his fall. It had been prophecized that Gollum had a task to fullfill, which was to make the quest complete, even though he did not know it.

Is a quest not ended, if it happened by luck or any other cause?
I think it is, even though my esteemed collegues of the GoT are stating the opposite.

Has a person failed to reach his objective, if a third party carries it out? I think not! As long as the objective is met, it is not a failure. Frodo payed a price for it, namely his finger, but technically it was still around his finger when mount doom's fire swallowed it.

Therefor, even though the author states differently in his letters, of which more was proven to be wrong on these here boards or simply was re-written afterwards, Frodo was successful.

[Anamatar IV]

Has a person failed to reach his objective, if a third party carries it out? I think not! As long as the objective is met, it is not a failure.

The Quest was to destroy the Ring and the Ring was destroyed. But did Frodo destroy the ring? If Gollum had not been there, been killed, captured,or just too slow to track the Hobbits, the Ring would not have been destroyed. Frodo claimed it for himself, the Ring mastered him, and only by the malice and desire of Gollum was the Ring destroyed.

Indeed However, his journey was highly successful, with Frodo reaching Mt Moon overcoming all adversery.

Omni, do you remember exactly how Frodo reached the Cracks of Doom? Lets have a little refresher here, why don't we:

(all quotes from Mount Doom, Return of the King)

Sam tried to guess the distances and to decide what way they ought to take. 'It looks every step of fifty miles,' he muttered gloomily staring at the threatening mountain, 'and that'll take a week, if it takes a day, with Mr. Frodo as he is.

He raised his eyes with difficulty to the dark slopes of Mount Doom towering above him, and then pitifully he began to crawl forward on his hands. Sam looked at him and wept in his heart, but no tears came to his dry and stinging eyes. 'I said I'd carry him, if it broke my back,' he muttered, 'and I will!' 'Come, Mr. Frodo!' he cried. 'I can't carry it for you, but I can carry you and it as well. So up you get! Come on, Mr. Frodo dear! Sam will give you a ride. Just tell him where to go, and he'll go.' As Frodo clung upon his back, arms loosely about his neck, legs clasped firmly under his arms, Sam staggered to his feet; and then to his amazement he felt the burden light.

So by your logic, Sam was successful in the Quest, not Frodo. Well, the question being debated is not "Did any member of the Fellowship succeed in the Quest?" It is Did Frodo succeed in the Quest?

Frodo was a pathetic wreck, even before they had even reached Mount Doom. He did not overcome all adversaries, Sam did.

Sam was an intrument as powerful as Frodo, but unlike Frodo, he did not fail. Again, we see that other people succeeded for Frodo. Without Sam (as stated previously in my post) Frodo does not reach Mount Doom. Without Sam, Frodo likely dies on the Gorgoroth. Without Sam, Frodo doesn't even escape the tower of Cirith Ungol! Frodo was basically the personification of despair and hopelessness.

(All quotes from Return of the King)

'The quest has failed Sam. Even if we get out of here, we can't escape. Only Elves can escape. Away, away out of Middle-earth, far away over the Sea. If even that is wide enough to keep the Shadow out.' `No, not everything, Mr. Frodo. And it hasn't failed, not yet. I took it, Mr. Frodo, begging your pardon. And I've kept it safe. It's round my neck now, and a terrible burden it is, too.'

Now you draw up the ladder, if you can, Mr. Frodo

'All right, Sam,' said Frodo. 'Lead me! As long as you've got any hope left. Mine is gone. But I can't dash, Sam. I'll just plod along after you.' 'Before you start any more plodding, you need sleep and food, Mr. Frodo. Come and take what you can get of them!' He gave Frodo water and an additional wafer of the waybread, and he made a pillow of his cloak for his master's head. Frodo was too weary to debate the matter, and Sam did not tell him that he had drunk the last drop of their water, and eaten Sam's share of the food as well as his own.

These quotes all show the same things: Frodo's futileness and Sam's caring. Without Sam, Frodo doesn't reach Mount Doom, but not even Sam could help Frodo destroy the Ring after he had claimed it for himself. Only Gollum who had an utmost desire for the Ring could destroy it then.

[Eriol]

:D

Our opponents seem to enjoy picking statements out of context. They not only do it with the book, but with our posts as well.

Tolkien rejected many other versions, picking rather Frodo's failure, because it reinforces one of the main themes of the tale

Scatha said I said this, in support for Omnipotent_elf who said I claimed that "Failure was one of the main themes of the story".

Let me look at what I really said:

Tolkien rejected many other versions, picking rather Frodo's failure, because it reinforces one of the main themes of the tale, that of redemption through mercy and pity (as explained in the quote from Letter 192).

You see what a difference those little dots at the end of a quote can make. Failure reinforces a theme, the theme of redemption through mercy and pity; that does not mean failure is THE theme. It does not even mean that failure is A theme. It means that it reinforces the theme.

Is a quest not ended, if it happened by luck or any other cause?
I think it is, even though my esteemed collegues of the GoT are stating the opposite

No, we are not stating the opposite; we are stating clearly that the Quest was successful while Frodo himself failed. The Ring was destroyed (without sarcasm). Sauron was defeated. But Frodo failed. Anamatar just posted more quotes from the book to show how Frodo's failure was adumbrated for a long time before he reached Mount Doom. I'll post a quote from the Letters in my next contribution in which Tolkien comments how Frodo's failure was obvious to any attentive reader who followed the logic of the tale.

Has a person failed to reach his objective, if a third party carries it out? I think not! As long as the objective is met, it is not a failure. Frodo payed a price for it, namely his finger, but technically it was still around his finger when mount doom's fire swallowed it.

That is an interesting take. Was Frodo's finger successful? Luckily, it is not the question being asked; Frodo's finger is not Frodo. Frodo stayed with Sam. It was Frodo's will, not Frodo's finger, which failed. He snapped; he claimed the Ring for himself. Frodo did this, not his finger.

I don't think we can really discuss the failure or success of a piece of flesh and bone without any will. How can a finger succeed (or fail, for that matter)? It has no inner goal. It only obeys his master's will; and that will snapped.

Therefore, even though the author states differently in his letters, of which more was proven to be wrong on these here boards or simply was re-written afterwards, Frodo was successful.

I don't really understand the comment about the letters being proved to be wrong; how can this be? How can anyone prove that Tolkien (of all people) is wrong about LotR? Also, we are not talking about letters written in the formative stages of the book; Tolkien is referring to the published work in them. In my next contribution I will mention the dates of the Letters quoted.

I don't think we can contradict the author if he "states differently in his letters".

[Scatha]

Very nice quotes, Anamatar, but was the ring still on Frodo's finger when it went into the fires of mount doom, yes or no?

Yes

Did Frodo then reach what he set out to do, even if not by his own accord?

Yes

No matter the state the hobbit was in at the end, these statements you cannot refute. Without being able to refute them, means Frodo did succeed in reaching his objective, namely the destruction of the ring, even though not out of free will, but successful nontheless.

With the ring still on Frodo's finger when it went into to fire, the hobbit technically did destroy the ring, which is something you cannot deny.

Nor you, Eriol :p ;)

[Beleg]

Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth
fëa 'spirit': the particular 'spirit' belonging to and 'housed' in any one hröa of the Incarnates. It corresponds, more or less, to 'soul'; and to 'mind', when any attempt is made to distinguish between mentality, and the mental processes of Incarnates, conditioned and limited by the co-operation of the physical organs of the hröa. It was thus in its being (apart from its experience) the impulse and power to think: enquire and reflect, as distinct from the means of acquiring data. It was conscious and self-aware: 'self' however in Incarnates included the hröa. The fëa was said by the Eldar to retain the impress or memory of the hröa and of all the combined experiences of itself and its body. (Quenya fëa (dissyllabic) is from older *phãya. Sindarin faer, of the same meaning, corresponds to Quenya fairë 'spirit (in general)', as opposed to matter (erma) or 'flesh' (hrávë).)

A fea govern the action of a person, for in reality it is actually the fea which is making the actions, the lifelass mass known as hroa is just a way for the fea to show these actions.

And are you saying that Frodo's fea was in his finger?
If yes, then Fordo would have died the moment his finger was cut, and If not, then the cut finger was just a lifeless mass of flesh with no fea, specially that of Frodo governing it's actions.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Scatha

With the ring still on Frodo's finger when it went into to fire, the hobbit technically did destroy the ring, which is something you cannot deny.

Nor you, Eriol :p ;)

I don't know the meaning of the word "technically" in your quote; and I think we showed quite clearly (see Beleg's last post) that "technically" the finger was not Frodo. Since the question is not "Did any of Frodo's cells succeed in destroying the Ring?", if the finger is not Frodo, then Frodo did not destroy it.

An hypothetical question. Suppose there was no Gollum. Frodo claims the Ring for himself. Sam realizes that the Quest has failed, and in an amazing feat (that probably breaks his heart afterwards), he pushes the invisible Frodo into the Chasm. Did Frodo succeed? Or is this scenario a success of Sam's?

I guess that Sam would probably kill himself later in this scenario. But even so he would have succeeded; and Frodo would have failed, in spite of the fact that his entire body and soul (not only his finger) was still attached to the Ring.

So much for the finger theory.

As for "we can't deny that", well, I'll keep on the side of the author on that, thanks :). Tolkien could deny it; why can't we?

I'm still owing you those dates from the Letters, sorry.

[Eriol]

Sorry for the double post; I don't think that it is the "in" thing to do to edit posts in debates.

Dates of letters:

Letter 181: Not dated, probably January or February 1956.

Letter 192: 27 July 1956

Letter 246: September 1963

I also said this:

I'll post a quote from the Letters in my next contribution in which Tolkien comments how Frodo's failure was obvious to any attentive reader who followed the logic of the tale.

Well, I think the quotes I offered from Letters 192 and 246 are enough to prove this point; they're in my first post. I can find more if you wish.

[Eriol]

Well, triple posts are so rare...

I regret to announce that I won't be able to participate in the debate from now on; it appears I have been banned from the Tournament.

Check this thread (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=12448&perpage=15&pagenumber=3) for details.

Good luck Beleg and Anamatar.

[Aulë]

Hmmm, I don't know why I didn't notice this earlier, but Eriol was not on the GoT team list for this debate.
All of Eriol's posts in this thread are to be ignored by the judges, and the GoT is to continue with the 4 players mentioned at the start of the thread.

[Aulë]

Since I am the Host, I wish that you had informed me of this alteration beforehand.
I will overlook this breach of the rules in context with what is going on elsewhere, and through evidence in the GoT discussion thread.

Continue to debate.

[Lhunithiliel]

Aule, apart from advising you to NOT use imperative sentenses any more, I would like to inform you too that Eriol will not participate in this debate. I have discussed the matter with him.

However, if you wished to be a truely fair Host, you should have at least PM-ed me to ask why he was included.
This is NOT a precedent! There have been other cases in this tournament when one debator leaves to be replaced by another.
But rules should be observed and that's why Eriol will not go on in this debate.

And last but not the least, I'd like to remind to you that as a Host, you should behave in a propper way and try to be fair and to approach the possible problems with the right attitude.
Showing hostility towards our Team is NOT the right attitude!

So, I very much hope this debate will be free of any further problems!

[omnipotent_elf]

There have been other cases in this tournament when one debator leaves to be replaced by another.

i'm sorry, but eriol was NOT cleared with our side, and that too is in the rules


he simply failed at doing so.

how, the ring was destroyed. This fact is critical, but due to Frodo's involvement, and no other character had such an involvement, then the ring would not have been where it was. Granted, Sam did a wide range of activites but non while undr Heavy control of the ring.

and the answer was no

that is where my disagreence comes from :D

As Scatha states

was the ring still on Frodo's finger when it went into the fires of mount doom, yes or no? YES. Did Frodo then reach what he set out to do, even if not by his own accord? YES


That is the base of the deabte. That is what was writeen, and when it comes to it, it is the basic facts of the debate.

? How can anyone prove that Tolkien (of all people) is wrong about LotR

of course we cant. I hate people who do that. The author wrote what his thoughts were. Read my arguemnts. Trust me. I dont think that at all. I thought you might of at least afforded me that courtesy, especially considering that
you think WE take things out of context.

Wow! So you are taking the word of Elrond
its the quote we got!
thats what we are arguing. Stick to the debate instead of trying to discredit us!

I'll leave it at that.

[Scatha]

Just for clarification sake, if we would have had objection to Eriol's participation, we would have said so.

I state this so all sides involved in this debate know the guild's stance on this.

[Beleg]

he simply failed at doing so.




how, the ring was destroyed. This fact is critical, but due to Frodo's involvement, and no other character had such an involvement, then the ring would not have been where it was. Granted, Sam did a wide range of activites but non while undr Heavy control of the ring.

Your habbit of snip cutting is annoying and It fails to show the whole context related with the sentence.

A few points.

1. We agree that the Ring was destroyed.
2. We agree that Frodo brought the Ring [With the assistance of Lady Luck and Sam] to Mount Doom.

What do mean by heavy control? Did the ring have times for 'heavy' control and 'light' control?
We agree that Frodo brought the ring to Mount Doom. That's done. But his actions afterward determine his failure. [As shown allready through conjecture and Quotations]



was the ring still on Frodo's finger when it went into the fires of mount doom, yes or no? YES. Did Frodo then reach what he set out to do, even if not by his own accord? YES





That is the base of the deabte. That is what was writeen, and when it comes to it, it is the basic facts of the debate.

Seems like you haven't read my previous post.

Will copy it here Again

Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, HOME X.
fëa 'spirit': the particular 'spirit' belonging to and 'housed' in any one hröa of the Incarnates. It corresponds, more or less, to 'soul'; and to 'mind', when any attempt is made to distinguish between mentality, and the mental processes of Incarnates, conditioned and limited by the co-operation of the physical organs of the hröa. It was thus in its being (apart from its experience) the impulse and power to think: enquire and reflect, as distinct from the means of acquiring data. It was conscious and self-aware: 'self' however in Incarnates included the hröa. The fëa was said by the Eldar to retain the impress or memory of the hröa and of all the combined experiences of itself and its body. (Quenya fëa (dissyllabic) is from older *phãya. Sindarin faer, of the same meaning, corresponds to Quenya fairë 'spirit (in general)', as opposed to matter (erma) or 'flesh' (hrávë).)




A fea govern the action of a person, for in reality it is actually the fea which is making the actions, the lifelass mass known as hroa is just a way for the fea to show these actions.

And are you saying that Frodo's fea was in his finger?
If yes, then Fordo would have died the moment his finger was cut, and If not, then the cut finger was just a lifeless mass of flesh with no fea, specially that of Frodo governing it's actions.

So your Main point becomes null.


of course we cant. I hate people who do that. The author wrote what his thoughts were. Read my arguemnts. Trust me. I dont think that at all. I thought you might of at least afforded me that courtesy, especially considering that
you think WE take things out of context.

Well you were arguing with Tolkien's words,

Here,


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Very few (indeed as far as letters go only you and one other) have observed or commented on Frodo's 'failure'. It is a very important point. Tolkien's own words
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



it was not failure if indeed his aim was succeeded.

its the quote we got!
thats what we are arguing. Stick to the debate instead of trying to discredit us!

Trying to discredit you?
:eek: My dear sir, what have I against you to make my try discrediting you?? But when the matter comes to your post, well that's another matter.

Elrond might be a great elf but Eru didn't bless him with the power of foretelling. What he says is merely an opinion based upon his instincts and his expectations. He has no way of knowing that Frodo will destroy the ring or not, unless he has invented some kind of time machine.


The Fact stands, Frodo did not destroy the Ring, Frodo sccucumbed to the power of the Ring at the crucial Moment. We have allready proven it.

[Aulë]

This debate shall close in 5 hours.
Please post your closing statements.

[Beleg]

The Guild of Tolkienology have argued the side that 'Frodo was Not successful in his Quest.

1. The duty laid on Frodo was to destroy the ring; Frodo's part in the Quest was to destroy the ring.
2. Frodo failed to do this at the last moment by sccucumbing to the lure of the ring and proclaiming it as his own, thus mutilating the whole purpose of fellowship.
3. Therefore It wasn't Frodo who destroyed the Ring, but it was destroyed by Gollum's intervention.
4. Frodo lost his part of the Quest as soon as he proclaimed the ring as his own.
5. We have clear proof in the shape of Author's words that 'Frodo failed in his part of the Quest.'.

[Aulë]

The debate is now closed.
A judgement thread shall be started shortly.