Round 5 debate between guild of outcasts and guild of scholars

[omnipotent_elf]

I'm hosting the debate between the guild of outcasts and guild of scholars
will both teams submit their debators
thanks
home team will be Outcasts
rules same as normal, one week debate starting from first post

good luck :D

[Nóm]

GoO:

Nóm (was removed, but placed back on the team)
Sarah
The-Elf-Herself (replacing Rhiannon)
YayGollum

[Feanorian]

We have found our last participant.:)
Elendil3119
Feanorian
Maedhros
Captain

[omnipotent_elf]

I apologise for the delay

if this question (edited)causes either guild any problems, notify me and I will find another....but i'm having a real problem getting somebody to clarify...

again, i apologise
anyways

edited

good luck to all
you'll have a week immediately after the first post
:D

judges
Omnipotent_elf
Aule
Beleg_strongbow
Gothmog
Celebthôl

[Maedhros]

Hmmmm, If you would be so nice as to provide us with a new topic. You could maybe ask Walter to help you with that.

[omnipotent_elf]

i would be more then happy too.....

nobody replies to my PM's....
thanx for telling me right away.....

[Nóm]

I am removing my name from the GoO team. So it can be 3 vs. 3.

[Elendil3119]

Nóm, that shouldn't be necessary, as Captain has just volunteered to fill the Scholar's 4th position. :)

[omnipotent_elf]

ok, we have a four vs four team

and now (hopefully this is good question, thanx beleg)


quote:
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Now it came to pass that Finwë took as his second wife Indis the Fair. She was a Vanya, close kin of Ingwë the High King, golden-haired and tall, and in all ways unlike Míriel. Finwë loved her greatly, and was glad again. But the shadow of Míriel did not depart from the house of Finwë, nor from his heart; and of all whom he loved Fëanor had ever the chief share of his thought.
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Was it correct for King Finwë of the Noldor to remarry for a seemingly selfish reason?



again, i apologise for the delay....

[Nóm]

Thanks guys. Nice topic too :).

The Outcast The-Elf-Herself would like to be in this debate and the Outcast Rhiannon says she will give up her place.

This has been brought up in the main Tournament Discussion thread that Aule started, and also in GoO's tournament dicussion thread.

Is it okay with GoS and anyone in charge of this sort of thing, if The-Elf-Herself takes Rhiannon's place? I understand if not, but am waiting to be sure before I jump in with the opening post.

[Maedhros]

We are ok with it.

[Nóm]

Finwe was correct to remarry because he had every right to, wanted to as it would make him happy, and there was no solid reason that he should not have done it.

Miriel approved of the second marriage and was happy that Finwe was happy, and spoke highly of Indis and her children. If it was wrong, why did his ex-wife of all people think it was okay?

Sure his son Feanor did not like it, but we have to look at Feanor's personality. Any oppoistion to his will is met with fierce resentment. Feanor was also distrustful to the point it borders on, if not crosses over into, paranoia. For example: After coming among the Noldor Indis spoke as Finwe did for reason of wanting to speak like the poeple she had become a part of, yet Feanor thought (and he was mistaken in thinking so) that she did this as disrespect to Miriel who had not switched to 'S'. So much of Feanor's disaproval of the marriage was based on Feanor mistaking the motives of others. Had he been willing to look at the truth of things, and not been so stubborn and resentful, he could have seen things as most other elves, and even the Valar did: That Finwe has every right to a second wife, and no disrespect is ment towards Miriel.

But how wrong did Feanor think it was of Finwe, when he still loved and respected his father to the point that it can be said 'and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?'. It was not wrong of Finwe, it was only Feanor's grief at the loss of his mother caused him to resent Indis to an unreasonable, and unfair extent. Therefore his attitude about the marriage can not be taken as the reasonable or correct one to have.

Finwe's bereavement was unfair, which was why the just Statute was made, and Finwe granted the permission to remarry. Therefore, even 'legally' speaking, what Finwe did was not wrong.

Finwe, like all other elves and apparantly all the Valar, thought that Miriel would never again return to life, and this was the first such case that they had known. To was an exceptional thing and called for an action that had not been taken before to help make it less wrong. Miriel needed healing and it was thought she would always do so. Finwe needed a spouse, and he loved Indis and she had loved him for long time. Their marriage was the perfect solution because it gave a happiness that nothing else in the world could have given.

This was an elf with thousands of thousands of years ahead of him in the world, and he unlike any others before him would have to live through this without a spouse. That is not fair since having a spouse is the natural way of things for the Eldar.

Finwe was a generous elf, who went into banishement with his son, and who gave up the chance to ever come back to life, yes he agreed to stay in Mandos until the end, so his ex- wife Miriel could live again. What greater sacrifice in the world could there be? Finwe was not one to make bad decisions for selfish or otherwise bad reasons.

Sure, Finwe had responsability to his son and his people, but Feanor was already grown into a big boy at this point, and just how much did King of the Noldor in Aman have to worry about? "White marble with diamonds along the walk way, or white marble with pearls?" There was no war or other hard time in Aman (Miriel's death was the hardest thing Aman had saw), Finwe had ever right to think of himself when it came to this. He had ever right to add gladness to his life.

The Eldar married out of love, and always at their own freewill. Elves had a right to marry whoever they chose to marry. Even though the Eldar often sought approval, it was not unlawful to do so without 'permission'.

Finwe married for the same reason most others marry - out of love. Such a thing is not incorrect. Not even for an Elven King with a grown son who has issues.

[Maedhros]

We have the topic:
Was it correct for King Finwë of the Noldor to remarry for a seemingly selfish reason?
I like the seemingly selfish part.
Let’s begin with a definition of the word correct:
Correct: Free from error or fault.
From Morgoth’s Ring
But Ulmo answered her saying: 'Nay! Though I do not condemn, yet still I will judge. Herein I perceive not only the direct will of Eru, but fault in his creatures. Not guilt, yet a failing from the highest which is the Hope of which the King hath spoken.
'Thus Finwë was aggrieved and claimed justice. But when he called her and she did not return, in only a few years he fell into despair. Herein lay his fault, and failing in Hope. But also he founded his claim mainly upon his desire for children, considering his own self and his loss more than the griefs that had befallen his wife: that was a failing in full love.
Finwë selfish reason was that he wanted to have more children, he thought that his grief was greater than that of his wife.

ibid.
This strange event should issue, rather than in dissolving their union, in the use by Finwë of the patience of full love, and the learning of Hope; and in the return of Míriel, wider in mind, and renewed in body. Thus together they might foster their great son with joined love, and his right nurture be assured. But the fëa of Míriel hath not been let in peace, and by importuning its will hath been hardened; and in that resolve it must remain without change while Arda lasteth, if the Statute is declared. Thus the impatience of Finwë will close the door of life upon the fëa of his spouse. This is the greater fault. For it is more unnatural that one of the Eldar should remain for ever as fëa without body than that one should remain alive wedded but bereaved. A trial was imposed upon Finwë (not by Míriel only), and he hath asked for justice, and relief.'
The difficulty posed by Míriel should have only strengthened the love between them, but it had the opposite effect because Finwë could not have patience with his wife and was more grieved at his lost than that of Míriel. Failure of love.

Let’s see Manwë’s thought on the matter:
ibid
And Manwë spoke to the Valar, saying: 'In this matter ye must not forget that you deal with Arda Marred - out of which ye brought the Eldar. Neither must ye forget that in Arda Marred Justice is not Healing. Healing cometh only by suffering and patience, and maketh no demand, not even for Justice. Justice worketh only within the bonds of things as they are, accepting the marring of Arda, and therefore though Justice is itself good and desireth no further evil, it can but perpetuate the evil that was, and doth not prevent it from the bearing of fruit in sorrow. Thus the Statute was just, but it accepted Death and the severance of Finwë and Míriel, a thing unnatural in Arda Unmarred, and therefore with reference to Arda Unmarred it was unnatural and fraught with Death. The liberty that it gave was a lower road that, if it led not still downwards, could not again ascend. But Healing must retain ever the thought of Arda Unmarred, and if it cannot ascend, must abide in patience. This is Hope which, I deem, is before all else the virtue most fair in the Children of Eru
It was the highest form of hope that Finwë forsook because of his desire for other children, thinking that his suffering was greater than that of his wife. Shameful.
How do we, as readers, know that Manwë is correct in this? Very simple.
From Vinyar Tengwar 41: Ósanwe-kenta
Manwe was wiser; or being ever open to Eru he did His will, which is more than wisdom.
As we can see, the Stature of Finwë and Míriel was just, Manwë himself said so, but it was not correct because it has faults, and no simple or insignificants faults, it had the greatest fault of all, the Failure of Love. Do we really think that Finwë is correct because his arguments rests in the fact that he wanted to have more children? Not giving her wife the time to heal and redress her fëa, by pressuring her to return before she was ready. In the world of JRRT, where we have such great love stories like that of Beren and Lúthien, Aragorn and Arwen, Thingol and Melian, can you imagine a greater fault than a failure in love between those unions?
The Second marrying of Finwë could never be correct because it had faults, and not just a simple fault, but the greatest fault of all, falling of the Highest hope there is: Failure of True Love.

[Nóm]

All book quotes from HoME X, Debate of the Valar and FM4.


The topic question does not ask if Finwe was correct in his handling of Miriel but if he was correct in remarrying for a seemingly selfish reason.
So for the debate, I will grant that his reasons were 'seemingly' selfish.

The failure of love and hope which resulted in Finwe seeking justice, is not relevant to the question. At the time when Finwe saw Indis and knew that she had always loved him, and he too now loved her, that failure of hope was already in the past. Miriel's decision was made, and Mandos after 12 years made it official that Miriel would not return. Finwe was therefore (even if n part because of past fault) in a situation where Miriel would never return to life, and therefore there was no hope to be had. It was too late.

GoS
Finwë selfish reason was that he wanted to have more children, he thought that his grief was greater than that of his wife.

Wanting more children was one of the reasons he was grieved over Miriel's condition.
But Finwe did not marry again just to have children:

...he looked up and saw Indis in the golden light, and he knew in that moment that she loved him and had long done so. Then his heart was turned at last to her...

There was love between them.

Wanting more children, yea. Thinking his grief was greater than Miriel's? No, this was not his reason for marrying Indis.

But who says he thought his grief was greater than Miriel's?

Ulmo's words are:"..considering his own self and his loss more than the griefs that had befallen his wife..."
I think Ulmo means here that Finwe thought of his own grief more than he did Miriel's, rather than that he thought his grief was greater than hers. But it is a matter of interpretation... the words can rightly be taken either way. However, this is not his seemingly selfish reason for marrying Indis.

The question doesn't ask if he was a saint regarding his despair at Miriel's condition. It doesn't ask if this despair was a fault resulting in a failure of hope. Heck, it doesn't even ask if it was correct to get remarried, it asks if he was correct in doing so for seemingly selfish reaon.

Another look at the question:Was it correct for King Finwë of the Noldor to remarry for a seemingly selfish reason?
The reasons were:

1)Shared love with someone

2)Wanted children

So, if one these are seemingly selfish, then yes, he was correct to marry for a seemingly selfish reason. Those reasons are as good they come.

Is this selfish or only seemingly selfish? Doesn't really matter because it is okay to marry for seemingly selfish reasons. What better reason to have a wife than love for a woman and desire to have children?


But lets look at more of Ulmo's words:
For the fea of Miriel may have departed by necessity, but it departed in the will not to return. Therein was her fault, for this will was not under compulsion irresistible; it was a failure in hope by the fea, acceptance on the weariness and weakness of the body, as a thing beyond healing, and where therefore was not healed. But this resolve entailed not only abandoning her own life. but also the desertion of her spouse...

then also:

Moreover, if she would return she need bear no more, unless by the renewal of rebrith her weariness were healed.
'Thus Finwe was aggrieved and claimed justice. But when he called her and she did not return, in only a few years he fell into despair.Herein lay his fault, and failing of hope. But also he founded his claim mainly upon his desire for children...
Both Miriel and Finwe had the fault of the failure of hope.
GoS
The difficulty posed by Míriel should have only strengthened the love between them, but it had the opposite effect because Finwë could not have patience with his wife and was more grieved at his lost than that of Míriel. Failure of love.
Finwe can not take all of the blame in what happend with Miriel. It was her who left her body, and in doing so, as Ulmo says, she had that same fault, the failure of hope.

But again, the question doesn't ask if he was correct to ask for justice out of loss of hope. It asks if he was correct to remarry for a seemingly selfish reason.


Now Ingwe, hearing of the strange grief of Finwe, and desiring to list up his heart and withdraw him from vain mourning in Lorien, had sent messages bidding him to leave Tuna for a while, and to come and dwell for a season in the full light of the Trees. Finwe thanked him but did not go, while there was yet hope that Mirieal would return. But when the doom of Mandos was spoken, it came into his heart that he must seek to build his life anew. 'Maybe there is healing in the light of Laurelin and hope in the blossom of Telperion,' he said. 'I will take the counsel of Ingwe.'
He still hoped and waited for Miriel while there was still a chance.

You talk about the love of Beren & Luthien, Melian and Thingol, and of Arwen and Aragorn, and you contrast this with Miriel and Finwe, but how about the love between Finwe and Indis that resulted in their marriage which this question asks about:
Finwe arose and went forth from Tuna alone, and he passed through the Kalairyan, and went towards the house of Ingwe upon the west slopes of Oiolosse. His coming was un heralded and unforeseen; and when Indis was Finwe climbing the paths of the Mountain, and the light of Laurelin was behind him as a glory, without forethought she sang suddenly in great joy, and her vioce went up as a song of the lirulin in the sky. Then Finwe heard that song falling from above, and he looked up and saw Indis in the golden light, and he knew in that moment that she loved him and had long done so. Then his heart was turned at last to her; and he believed that this chance, as it seemed, had been granted for the comfort of them both. 'Behold!' he said. 'There is indeed healing of grief in Aman!'

Bears quite a resemblance to the first encounters of Melian & Thingol and Beren & Luthien.
This here was not a a failure of love or hope here. That failure of hope, the fault of Miriel and Finwe, was long passed.

What does GoS offer against this second marriage?
By GoS
The Second marrying of Finwë could never be correct because it had faults, and not just a simple fault, but the greatest fault of all, falling of the Highest hope there is: Failure of True Love.
The second marriage did not have that fault.

Also by GoS:
Not giving her wife the time to heal and redress her fëa, by pressuring her to return before she was ready.
As Ulmo said, Miriel departed with no hope of healing. And as the other quote above shows, FInwe waited and hoped for the return of Miriel up until Mandos deemed enough time had passed since Miriel stated she would never return to life again. And did Finwe do that was so pressuring? He sat by his wife's body and called her back. But again, this doesn't matter for the topic... it is in the past and has different motives than the second marriage.

Do we really think that Finwë is correct because his arguments rests in the fact that he wanted to have more children?
Correct in second marriage?
Finwe was correct because he married out of love, a thing he had every right to do regardless if it seemed selfish.
GoS
As we can see, the Stature of Finwë and Míriel was just, Manwë himself said so, but it was not correct because it has faults, and no simple or insignificants faults, it had the greatest fault of all, the Failure of Love.
The Statute was not incorrect.
lets see what Namo says...
'Healing by final Hope, as Manwe hath spoken of it, is a law which one can give to oneself only; of others justice alone can be demanded. A ruler who dsicoerning justice refuseth to it the sanction of law, demanding abnegation of rights and self-sacrifice, will not drive his subjects to these virtues, virtuous only if freem but by unnaturally making justice unlawful, will drive them rather to rebellion against all law. Not by such means will Arda be healed.
'It is right, there, that this just statute should be proclaimed, and those that use it shall be blameless, whatsoever followeth after. Thus shall the Tale of the Eldar, within the Tale of Arda, be fashioned.

Because the denial of justice would result in unlawful actions and rebellion, justice must be allowed, and that is why the Statute is both just and correct.

Finwe was correct to use this Statute (the fact remarriage is legal if the first spouse is never to return to life) because his reasons for doing so were not out of failure of hope and love (as was his fear years earlier, his heart's warning, that Miriel would never return), but rather they were out of hope and love.

[Maedhros]

Again the topic is:
Was it correct for King Finwë of the Noldor to remarry for a seemingly selfish reason?
GoO
The topic question does not ask if Finwë was correct in his handling of Míriel but if he was correct in remarrying for a seemingly selfish reason.
It is simple actually. If Finwë would had had patience with his first wife Míriel, she would have no reason to remarry. The fault that he made in his first marriage leads directly to his second marriage, therefore, the Míriel affair cannot be left out of the discussion.
GoO
The failure of love and hope which resulted in Finwe seeking justice, is not relevant to the question. At the time when Finwe saw Indis and knew that she had always loved him, and he too now loved her, that failure of hope was already in the past. Miriel's decision was made, and Mandos after 12 years made it official that Miriel would not return. Finwe was therefore (even if n part because of past fault) in a situation where Miriel would never return to life, and therefore there was no hope to be had. It was too late.
The stature was just, but it had flaws, a flaw of love between Finwë and Míriel. Therefore it was not correct. Remember that Míriel's fëa was importuned by Finwë:
ibid.
This strange event should issue, rather than in dissolving their union, in the use by Finwë of the patience of full love, and the learning of Hope; and in the return of Míriel, wider in mind, and renewed in body. Thus together they might foster their great son with joined love, and his right nurture be assured. But the fëa of Míriel hath not been let in peace, and by importuning its will hath been hardened; and in that resolve it must remain without change while Arda lasteth, if the Statute is declared. Thus the impatience of Finwë will close the door of life upon the fëa of his spouse. This is the greater fault.
Finwë had no patience, what is but a few years for the Eldar who live until the End of the World.
GoO
There was love between them.
But for Finwë at least, it was not a perfect love.
ibid.
But this also she found true: 'the house remembers the builder, though others may dwell in it after.' For Finwë loved her well, and was glad, and she bore him children in whom he rejoiced, yet the shadow of Míriel did not depart from his heart
GoO
The reasons were:

1)Shared love with someone

2)Wanted children

So, if one these are seemingly selfish, then yes, he was correct to marry for a seemingly selfish reason. Those reasons are as good they come.

Is this selfish or only seemingly selfish? Doesn't really matter because it is okay to marry for seemingly selfish reasons. What better reason to have a wife than love for a woman and desire to have children?
Unfortunately, there is a flaw in this. Finwë wanted to have more children. He was already married to Míriel. Did Finwë's desire to have more children really outweights the patience and suffering that he and his wife Míriel must endure in order to overcome this? Why did he push for a stature that would free him to have more children, and not let his wife heal with time.
ibid.
Healing cometh only by suffering and patience, and maketh no demand, not even for Justice. Justice worketh only within the bonds of things as they are, accepting the marring of Arda, and therefore though Justice is itself good and desireth no further evil, it can but perpetuate the evil that was, and doth not prevent it from the bearing of fruit in sorrow.
But Healing must retain ever the thought of Arda Unmarred, and if it cannot ascend, must abide in patience. This is Hope which, I deem, is before all else the virtue most fair in the Children of Eru
GoO
The Statute was not incorrect.

Something cannot be correct if it has faults. It can be just and it is, but it is not correct. It had an inherent fault. The stature was sought because it came from a fault. From a failing of hope.
ibid.
The Statute openeth the liberty of a lower road, and accepting death, countenanceth death, and cannot heal it. If that liberty is used, the evil of the death of Míriel will continue to have power, and will bear fruit in sorrow.
Lets see the fault:
Finwë and Míriel had a child. Then Míriel languished and went to Mandos. Finwë was grieved at this. Finwë wanted to have more children, is that a bad thing no. The fault is that he permitted that his desire to have more children to turn into despair. That is his fault. He had not the patience to let his wife heal herself. The greatest fault of all there is, a failure of love.
Desire for children and love are not bad things but good. But if you let the desire for children overtake the patience needed from his spouse to heal herself with time, that is a fault. That fault led Finwë to seek the stature, and that led him to his second marriage.
His desire to have children became a flaw in him, that eventually ended up with his second marriage.
Was the marriage and stature just? Yes. Was the second marriage correct? I cannot be because his reason for it had faults.
And who says that it is flawed?
Manwë, the wisest and noblest of the Valar.

[Nóm]

Granted, if not for Finwe's fault, the Statute would likely not have been in place, Miriel even though claiming she would never leave Mandos would not have had Mandos make that decision final, and therefore Finwe would not have married Indis.

But, those things did happen, Finwe did have that fault and the statute was put in place, so at the time FInwe met Indis and loved her it was not a fault to marry her. It was only faults which put him in a situation where he was allowed to marry her.

Fingon was at fault for rebelling the Valar and likely being involved in kinslaying, and then the fault of pride which drove them across the Helcaraxe, but was he at fault for rescuing Maedhros? No. He was correct to do this. Even though he never would have had to do it if the earlier faults hadn't happend.

Was Finrod incorrect in all the good deeds he did in Middle-earth all because it was faults which lead him to the situation to do those things? Of course not.

Did Faults lead Finwe to a situation where he could remarry? Yes. Was Finwe at fault for taking that chance of healing since his other chance had passed? No.

We say you can not judge the correctness of an action upon which faults lead to the situation wherein the action took place, but rather you must judge the correctness of an action based on that action alone.
The stature was just, but it had flaws, a flaw of love between Finwë and Míriel. Therefore it was not correct.

It was put in place because of flaws, of Arda Marred, but the statute itself was not flawed since it served its purpose exactly and definitely, just as it was intended.

As Mandos said, justice was needed to keep people from rebelling, and making that statute allowed for the justice.

[Feanorian]

Originally posted by Nóm
Granted, if not for Finwe's fault, the Statute would likely not have been in place, Miriel even though claiming she would never leave Mandos would not have had Mandos make that decision final, and therefore Finwe would not have married Indis.

Miriel did not have Mandos make the decision final, after both parties consent then there is a 10 year period during which the decision is finailized and put into place forever. Look at Miriel at this point. She has been through more adversities then any of the other elves in Arda, her exhaustion is so deep she has not even the energy to weep. Of course she feels this way at this time..Finwe had no patience to allow her to rest for say a good 1000 years or even 2000 what is that in the years of the Eldar?
Surely she would have seen her faults later on while she to record there the histories of the kin of Finwë and all the deeds of the Noldor. Which is what her job was until the end of Arda

But, those things did happen, Finwe did have that fault and the statute was put in place, so at the time FInwe met Indis and loved her it was not a fault to marry her. It was only faults which put him in a situation where he was allowed to marry her.

Finwe waited an additional three years before marrying Indis. He had known Indis and known of her love for him for a long time. During the ten years of waiting he must have had his love grow. He waited the extra three years as to make it appear that he had not been waiting to marry Indis....deceptive. While Finwe did have the right to marry Indis he had not done this for pure reasons, he used delusive (see definition of seeming later in post) tactics to gain children and fufill his desires.

Finwe had a desire for more children right after the death of Miriel, nay right after the birth of Feanor as is shown here then Finwe was grieved, for the Noldor were in the youth of their days, and he desired to bring forth many childreni into the bliss of Aman, he did not foster his love for Indis over a long time, 10-13 years is really just a couple of months in the world of Elves.
In those unhappy thing which later came to pass, and in which Feanor was the leader, many [B] saw the effect of this breach within the house of Finwe, judging that if Finwe had endured his loss and been content with the fathering of his mighty son, the courses of Feanor would have been otherwise, and great evil might have been prevented, for the sorrow and the strife in the house of Finwe is graven in the memory of the Noldorin Elves

This shows that not only would Miriel's body be forever trapped in Mandos it shows that many evil things would not have befallen had Finwe not remarried for deceptive reasons. I say deceptive because:
From Websters: Seeming: having an often deceptive or delusive appearance on superficial examination
Let us come back to the original question:
QUOTE]Was it correct for King Finwë of the Noldor to remarry for a seemingly selfish reason?[/QUOTE]

We say you can not judge the correctness of an action upon which faults lead to the situation wherein the action took place, but rather you must judge the correctness of an action based on that action alone.

That is like saying you cant judge a crack addicts latest score on his prior addiction....every action has things which led up to them and made them possible..to forget about those things is to loose any credibility for your arguments because then what is your arguments based upon? Why are we even debating this topic if Finwe's "reasons" are irrelavant because they have faults as you yourself admit here:

Granted, if not for Finwe's fault, the Statute would likely not have been in place, Miriel even though claiming she would never leave Mandos would not have had Mandos make that decision final, and therefore Finwe would not have married Indis.

Finwe's greatest fault? Lack or failure of Love and Paitence. Having faults make his reasons incorrect because as my good friend posted in his very first reply:
Let’s begin with a definition of the word correct:
Correct: Free from error or fault.

So whether they lived in Arda Marred or not Finwe had faults which make him incorrect..Simple as that.

[Nóm]

Just clearing something up real quick before it goes further

Miriel did not have Mandos make the decision final, after both parties consent then there is a 10 year period during which the decision is finailized and put into place forever.

Sorry, I did not mean to say that, I worded it poorly.

I said:"Granted, if not for Finwe's fault, the Statute would likely not have been in place, Miriel even though claiming she would never leave Mandos would not have had Mandos make that decision final, and therefore Finwe would not have married Indis."

It should read, "Miriel even though claiming she would never leave, Mandos would not have made that decision final,"

Though it is a 12 year period.

[omnipotent_elf]

sorry for interupting, but the debate will end
Thursday, (31st July), 1:42 PM AEDS time

[Maedhros]

This is where the Fault lays:
There is nothing wrong in wanting to love or to have children. Those things by themselves are good and even wanted. The fault is that when Míriel gave birth to Fëanáro, she had become weary. Elves had more control of their hröa than their fellow humans. They lived in a virtual paradise, unlike Men. With these facts taken into account, can you see now that her birth had unique consequences. The amount of enegies that she had to spend in the bearing of her son were unpararell.
Would I ever know what a birth of a child feels like? No. Would Finwë? No. The problem that Finwë gave in was not that he called her wife in the gardens of Lórien, no that was perfectly ok, the problem was that he seeked a solution after a few years, a stature. Míriel unfortunately was not at that time ready for returning and she refused to return. Herein lies his fault, he didn't have the patience necessary to allow the fëa of Míriel to heal herself, and he went into despair. It was his desire for children that led to his seeking for the stature, instead of resisting the pain that he and his wife felt about the weariness of Míriel.
ibid.
Healing cometh only by suffering and patience, and maketh no demand, not even for Justice. Justice worketh only within the bonds of things as they are, accepting the marring of Arda, and therefore though Justice is itself good and desireth no further evil, it can but perpetuate the evil that was, and doth not prevent it from the bearing of fruit in sorrow.
But Healing must retain ever the thought of Arda Unmarred, and if it cannot ascend, must abide in patience. This is Hope which, I deem, is before all else the virtue most fair in the Children of Eru
There is the fault, Finwë had not the patience and he let his suffering become despair. The healing that should have come didn't, and while the stature was fair, it was flawed. It had the greatest flaw of all, a failing of true love. So his second marriage was just, but not correct because it was inherently flawed. Sad indeed.

[Nóm]

Regarding Miriel:
You can not rightly imply one was not at fault, and the other was. Both elves had very good reasons for their despair, but they were both at fault in failure of hope, as Ulmo says. Miriel for leaving her body and Finwe for despairing.

You say 'surely she would have seen her faults later on...' but... why surely? All signs pointed to her not changing her mind.

Of course you can blame Finwe for what happend, and count Miriel innocent, but there can not be any reasoning where doing so would actually make sense.


Onto to Feanorian's reasons against Finwe:

Finwe waited an additional three years before marrying Indis. He had known Indis and known of her love for him for a long time. During the ten years of waiting he must have had his love grow. He waited the extra three years as to make it appear that he had not been waiting to marry Indis....deceptive. While Finwe did have the right to marry Indis he had not done this for pure reasons, he used delusive (see definition of seeming later in post) tactics to gain children and fufill his desires.
I'm not clear about this. Are you saying that Finwe loved Indis before Miriel was doomed to stay in Mandos forever?

He did not even meet her in the light of the trees until after that doom was spoken. He denied Ingwe's invitation while there was any chance of Miriel's return.

Only after she was doomed to Mandos forever, did he take up the invitation. Since Finwe married three years after the doom and one year after meeting with Indis, this means Finwe didn't even take Ingwe's invitation to dwell in the tree light until 2 years after Miriel was doomed to Mandos.

1) Miriel says she'll never return and Mandos waits 12 years incase she changes her mind.

2) 12 years is up, Miriel doomed.

3) 2 years later Finwe takes up Ingwe's invitation and ends up meeting with Indis, learns she always loved him, and he grows to love her too

4) 1 year later they are married.

So your reason that Finwe was deceptive, is based on things that just flat did not take place.

But are you mixing FM 4 with the Shibboleth of Feanor? I'll get to that below.
This shows that not only would Miriel's body be forever trapped in Mandos it shows that many evil things would not have befallen had Finwe not remarried for deceptive reasons.
This is not a good reason that Finwe was incorrect to remarry. And as Mandos says, the tale of Arda will unfold because of these things Finwe did. Again, there was no deception on the part of Finwe.

So whether they lived in Arda Marred or not Finwe had faults which make him incorrect..Simple as that.
He was incorrect to despair, which caused him to seek justice which caused the statute to be established.

This was all before Miriel was doomed and he remaried.

This fault was in the past, even if it allowed for situation where he was allowed to remarry.

Again I use the Fingon example. Was he incorrect to rescue Maedhros all because that whole situation came about from earlier faults?

Finwe's greatest fault? Lack or failure of Love and Paitence.
He did not marry Indis for reason of lack of love and patience. He married her out of love, and though he was able to do so because of his past impatience, it was just that... past. His action in getting married had good motives and was a thing of hope, not a failure of it.

At the time Finwe met Indis in the light of the trees, Miriel was gone from life forever. She was not coming back. There was no patience to be had... it was too late.

Maedhros,

I of course agree with everything you said, because all of it is undeniable true... except for this last bit:

It had the greatest flaw of all, a failing of true love. So his second marriage was just, but not correct because it was inherently flawed. Sad indeed.

I still hold that the Statute itself was not flaws. It was perfect for its puprose, which was to deal with flaws... but the thing itself was correct in all ways. It allowed justice without which rebellion would come.

Now Finwe was correct to remarry because at the time he did so, he loved Indis and Miriel had already been doomed. He was already paying for his past fault, which could not have been undone, at the time he met Indis and learned of her love for him. His second marriage was a chance to mend the situation that his earlier faults had a part in putting him into.

Finwe lost hope and put it in the hands of the Valar to deal with.

He kept hope for Miriel's return up until the 12 years had passed and Mandos doomed her never to return.

Then he was without a choice to wait for her, because there was no chance of her return.

So he married the elf he loved, thinking it would be healing from grief.

The shadow of Miriel did not depart from his heart because he still loved her. He loved both elves. This shadow did not make his love for Indis any less.

This debate is funny to me, because The Shibboleth introduces some things drasticly different than what is told in the versions of the tale of Miriel and Finwe. I have so far taken FM 4 to be the bases of this debate, and I had actually been studying this awhile back....so I am well aware of the confusion in the texts.

If we take Shibboleth... Finwe was incorrect, beyond a doubt. Though Maedhros has not been using that version.... I think Feanorian is? I am not sure.... but if not then he has his facts mixed up.

But that Maedhros has not been using Shibboleth, and he would win this debate for sure if he did, causes me to almost defer to him... he knows this stuff more than I do and if he isn't using Shibboleth... there must be a good reason. I'd really rather discuss this (Shibboleth vs FM4) than misuse it in debate.

But in trying to resolve this in a hurry for the sake of this debate, I went with my first tendency which was to say that FM 4 should be taken as the correct version since in the Shibboleth the events concerning Miriel and Finwe's second marriage are told in quick summary and with reference to the early texts as though they are valid. However, the fact remains that Shibboleth is the later of the texts. Really it comes down to which version should be taken as the true one. But on the other hand, the story was recounted in Shibboleth only to provide the information vital to giving some explaination for Feanor's actions. The funny thing is that I think the way the tale went in FM 4 is enough explaination, so I am not sure why Tolkien tells another tale in Shibboleth. Granted Shibboleth's version was Miriel more wronged by Finwe and the Valar, FM 4 is sufficient (imo) in explaining Feanor.

The truth is that I do not really know what to make of the conflicts caused by Shibboleth with regards to Miriel and Finwe's second marriage.

My team may not like this, and they are welcomed to disagree with me, since it is okay for members of one team to disagree with eachother, but I am doing what I think it right here.

I will not argue Finwe was correct if we take the Shibboleth version. If that is what you are doing, Feanorian?

According to Shibboleth... simply put: In my opinion Finwe and the Valar did very wrong by Miriel. In Shibboleth, there is no indication that Miriel ever said she would never return to life, and indeed we are given the strong impression opposite of that - we get the impression that Miriel never said she would never return, but merely kept refusing to return at the moment. Furthermore we are actually told that it was with the second marriage that Miriel would be doomed to abide in Mandos forever, rather than that Mandos doomed her before Finwe even knew Indis loved him and he grew to love her in return. And even more: Finwe did seek justice after he loved Indis and before the Statute was in place. And there's more.

But taking FM4... my arguements stand. Finwe was correct to remarry because any faults of his were in the past, it was a done deal, and because of the statute and Miriel being doomed to Mandos... he had to move on and waiting for the return of Miriel would have been in vain.

[Maedhros]

This is what Námo says about his judgement:

'It is our part to rule Arda, and to counsel the Children, or to command them in things committed to our authority. Therefore it is our task to deal with Arda Marred, and to declare what is just within it. We may indeed in counsel point to the higher road, but we cannot compel any free creature to walk upon it. That leadeth to tyranny, which disfigureth good and maketh it seem hateful.
'Healing by final Hope, as Manwë hath spoken of it, is a law which one can give to oneself on
The stature was just. It could not be otherwise. But the flaws come from Míriel and Finwë. Remember the reason that Finwë was sad was that he wanted to bring more children into the bliss of Aman. He fell into despair, he had not the Hope and patience to strive with this trial with her wife, and he went to look for the stature a resolution. That is his fault. He had abandoned the idea of healing in his heart.
It has been perceived wrongly that Míriel would never return to her hröa, and I said wrongly because when the Ñoldóran was slained, she indeed came back, so her healing was achievable. That was an opinion of Vairë not a certainity:
Manwë
For though she speaketh not without knowledge, she uttereth opinion and not certainty. The Valar have not and must not presume certainty with regard to the wills of the Children.
GoO
Finwe was correct to remarry because any faults of his were in the past, it was a done deal, and because of the statute and Miriel being doomed to Mandos... he had to move on and waiting for the return of Miriel would have been in vain.
The stature was just but the subjects were flawed.
Manwë:
Nor, even were they certain in this one case concerning the fëa of Míriel, would that unmake the union of love that once was between her and her spouse, or render void the judgement that constancy to it would in Finwë be a better and fairer course, more in accord with Arda Unmarred, or with the will of Eru in permitting this thing to befall him. The Statute openeth the liberty of a lower road
The problem is this: Finwë wanted to have more children, and he thought that his suffering was greater than that of his wife, unfortunately he didn't have hope and despaired and seeked for a way out. The stature then was just, but it was inherently flawed because it accepted the lower road. There is the fault, Finwë sought the stature to have more children, now that he had it, he found love with Indis, and she bore him children. If Finwë had the patience for his wife to heal herself, he would not have seeked the stature nor would have married Indis. It was his flaw that was the cause of both the stature and his remarring. While they might be just, they are flawed. One cannot be separated from the other.

P.S And as for Fingon's rescue of Maedhros, that was correct because Fingon's ultimate reason was to heal the breach of the Ñoldor.
Like Manwë says:

But Healing must retain ever the thought of Arda Unmarred, and if it cannot ascend, must abide in patience. This is Hope which, I deem, is before all else the virtue most fair in the Children of Eru

[Nóm]

I guess this will be my closing statement.

The stature was just. It could not be otherwise. But the flaws come from Míriel and Finwë.
The Statute comes from Finwe and Miriel, but there is no flaw within the statute itself. The statute is its own thing, merely a making legal of something. It provided something that was necessary, justice.

I don't know if Feanorian will answer me about the Shibboleth or not? So I'll not bother with it in closing.

I acknowledge and agree with much of what GoS says, but differ on only one major point. I do not think the past faults of Finwe can be used to cast fault on him marrying Indis for a 'seemingly selfish' reason. I have already told why he married her, and I admit he was only in the situation where he was able to love and marry her because of his past faults.

But his faults, failure of love, his depair... they had already happend. Finwe was not failing when he married Indis but had already failed.


We are not asked 'Did Finwe remarry because of, or in part as the result of, his faults?'

We're asked if it was correct to do so for 'a seemingly selfish' reason. Simply: He was correct to marry for the reasons he married: Loved Indis and wanted more children. He also went into this marriage with a new hope. That is all there is to it.


He fell into despair, he had not the Hope and patience to strive with this trial with her wife, and he went to look for the stature a resolution. That is his fault. He had abandoned the idea of healing in his heart.

He did not fully let go of hope though, until Mandos had doomed Miriel. As was shown by the quote earlier.

However, this was in the past. He failed, but was not failing, and not failing when he met Indis in the light of Laurelin.

Speaking of abandoning the idea of healing... I'll just remind that when Finwe did learn of Indis's long time love of him and his heart was turned to her: 'Behold!' he said. 'There is indeed healing of grief in Aman!'

His second marriage was something he had a right to do, and had good motives for doing. It was correct for him to remarry for the seeminlgy selfish reason.

[Maedhros]

GoO
Speaking of abandoning the idea of healing... I'll just remind that when Finwe did learn of Indis's long time love of him and his heart was turned to her: 'Behold!' he said. 'There is indeed healing of grief in Aman!'
Manwë
'In this matter ye must not forget that you deal with Arda Marred - out of which ye brought the Eldar. Neither must ye forget that in Arda Marred Justice is not Healing. Healing cometh only by suffering and patience, and maketh no demand, not even for Justice.
GoO
The Statute comes from Finwe and Miriel, but there is no flaw within the statute itself. The statute is its own thing, merely a making legal of something. It provided something that was necessary, justice.
Manwë
Thus the Statute was just, but it accepted Death and the severance of Finwë and Míriel, a thing unnatural in Arda Unmarred, and therefore with reference to Arda Unmarred it was unnatural and fraught with Death. The liberty that it gave was a lower road that, if it led not still downwards, could not again ascend. But Healing must retain ever the thought of Arda Unmarred, and if it cannot ascend, must abide in patience. This is Hope which, I deem, is before all else the virtue most fair in the Children of Eru
The stature is just, but it is fundamentally flawed. Manwë says so himself, otherwise healing would have been chosen.
GoO
We're asked if it was correct to do so for 'a seemingly selfish' reason. Simply: He was correct to marry for the reasons he married: Loved Indis and wanted more children. He also went into this marriage with a new hope. That is all there is to it.
Let's see the turn of events. Finwë had a failure of love with his wife Míriel. He lost hope and despaired because he felt that he could not have more children. That despair and failure of love is the first fault. That led to his seeking for the Stature. The Valar acted correctly because they could not force the Eldar to act in a certain way, therefore the stature was just, but it was flawed because it accepted death and failure of hope. There was no healing involved. That stature gave Finwë the right to remarry. Was it just for Finwë to remarry? Yes. Was it correct for Finwë to remarry? No, because it was his desire to have more children that drove him to despair, which in turn led to the stature and to his second marriage. That reason was inherently flawed, because he lost hope.
Remember, the stature gave Finwë the liberty to remarry, but it could not undo the feelings with his former wife. The stature could never give him a free slate of mind. Therefore it was flawed and incorrect.
Manwë
The Valar have not and must not presume certainty with regard to the wills of the Children. Nor, even were they certain in this one case concerning the fëa of Míriel, would that unmake the union of love that once was between her and her spouse, or render void the judgement that constancy to it would in Finwë be a better and fairer course, more in accord with Arda Unmarred, or with the will of Eru in permitting this thing to befall him.
I speak the words of Manwë, the noblest of the Valar.
Again the topic is:
Was it correct for King Finwë of the Noldor to remarry for a seemingly selfish reason?
It could never be because it was flawed. It was just, but it was not correct.

[omnipotent_elf]

thakyou for the debate
judging will now begin