Round 5: Ost-in-Edhil Vs Periuar

[Anamatar IV]

Welcome those of OiE and GoP!

I'll give the topic once both guilds have put forth their teams.

Judges:

Neutral - ILLOTRTM
GoO - Nom
GoS - Feanorian
GoT- Anamatar
GoE/D - Beth

[Arvedui]

Ost-in-Edhil are fielding the following team:
Arvedui
Chymaera
chrysophalax
Gothmog


EDIT: Gothmog added to the team, by approval of our honourable opponents.

[Snaga]

Strangely, Aule insists I post the Periaur team.

Aulë
Legolam
Tookish

and me/ghost (amounts to the same thing). This is to say I won't actually be posting. Sorry.

[Anamatar IV]

But Ulmo was not deceived, and Tulkas clenched his hands whenever he saw Melkor his foe go by; for if Tulkas is slow to wrath he is slow also to forget. But they obeyed the judgement of Manwë; for those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel~The published Silmarillion

Was it ok for Manwe to pardon Melkor?

(restriction: the essay Ósanwe kenta may not be used)

Ost in Edhil gets the pick of sides, the debate will run 7 days from the first post.

Good luck.

[Arvedui]

It was OK for Manwë to pardon Melkor!

Melkor had completed the term of his bondage, as the Valar had decided on beforehand:
But when the Battle was ended and from the ruin of the North great clouds arose and hid the stars, the Valar drew Melkor back to Valinor, bound hand and foot, and blindfold; and he was brought to the Ring of Doom. There he lay upon his face before the feet of Manwë and sued for pardon; but his prayer was denied, and he was cast into prison in the fastness of Mandos, whence none can escape, neither Valar, nor Elf, nor mortal Man. Vast and strong are those halls, and they were built in the west of the land of Aman. There was Melkor doomed to abide for three ages long, before his cause should be tried anew, or he should plead again for pardon.
Now Melkor was tried again, and hesued for pardon, vowing that if he might be made only the least of the free people of Valinor he would aid the Valar in all their works, and most of all in the healing of the many hurts that he had done to the world.

Manwë did not only have Melkor's sue for pardon to refer to when calling his verdict, but also:
And Nienna aided his prayer;
Before moving further, let us remind you quickly who Nienna was:
Mightier than Estë is Nienna, sister of the Fëanturi; she dwells alone. She is acquainted with grief, and mourns for every wound that Arda has suffered in the marring of Melkor.
She mourns every wound that Arda has suffered in the marring of Melkor, and still she aids Melkor's prayer!

Back to Manwë. There are two main reason why Manwë was right in giving pardon to Melkor. First of all, Manwë is purely good:
For Manwë was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew that in the beginning, in the thought of Ilúvatar, Melkor had been even as he; and he saw not to the depths of Melkor's heart, and did not perceive that all love had departed from him for ever
Second, but not least:
Manwë is dearest to Ilúvatar and understands most clearly his purposes. He was appointed to be, in the fullness of time, the first of all Kings: lord of the realm of Arda and ruler of all that dwell therein.

So there you have it: Manwë understands most clearly Ilúvatar's purposes!

One last thing: Melkor was not given leave to move about as freely as he would want to. A restriction was set on his movement:Then Manwë granted him pardon; but the Valar would not yet suffer him to depart beyond their sight and vigilance, and he was constrained to dwell within the gates of Valmar.
It was the words and deeds of Melkor after his pardon, that made the Valar give him the right to move about freely.


All quotes from 'The Silmarillion.'

[Anamatar IV]

Debate halted because Tookish can't log in for one reason or another...

[Anamatar IV]

Debate reopened...

[Aulë]

Originally posted by Anamatar IV

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But Ulmo was not deceived, and Tulkas clenched his hands whenever he saw Melkor his foe go by; for if Tulkas is slow to wrath he is slow also to forget. But they obeyed the judgement of Manwë; for those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel~The published Silmarillion
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Was it ok for Manwe to pardon Melkor?

(restriction: the essay Ósanwe kenta may not be used)


The Periaur say that it was NOT ok for Manwë to pardon Melkor.

Why, you may ask?

The initials 'OK' are an abbreviation for 'All Correct' (with intentional misspelling).
So we must ask ourselves, Was it entirely correct for Manwë to pardon Melkor.
There are several reasons why it was not correct:

Reason #1: Because Melkor was released, he was able to enlist the services of Ungoliant, and thefore the Two Trees of Valinor were destroyed
Of the Darkening of Valinor
Then the Unlight of Ungoliant rose up even to the roots of the Trees, and Melkor sprang upon the mound; and with his black spear he smote each Tree to its core, wounded them deep, and their sap poured forth as it were their blood, and was spilled upon the ground. But Ungoliant sucked it up, and going then from Tree to Tree she set her black beak to their wounds, till they were drained; and the poison of Death that was in her went into their tissues and withered them, root, branch, and leaf; and they died.
Whilst Telperion and Laurelin grew in Valinor, it was considered to be the 'Days of the Bliss of Valinor', so their destruction must have been a terrible, terrible event. Something that could have been prevented though.

#2 Reason: Because Melkor was released, he was able to spin his web of lies apon the Noldor (esp. the sons of Finwë), which caused them to rebel, and be exiled from Valinor.
Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor
High Princes were Fëanor and Fingolfin, the elder sons of Finwë, honoured by all in Aman; but now they grew proud and jealous each of his rights and his possessions. Then Melkor set new lies abroad in Eldamar, and whispers came to Fëanor that Fingolfin and his sons were plotting to usurp the leadership of Finwë and of the elder line of Fëanor, and to supplant them by the leave of the Valar; for the Valar were ill-pleased that the Silmarils lay in Tirion and were not submitted to their keeping. But to Fingolfin and Finarfin it was said; 'Beware! Small love has the proud son of Míriel ever had for the children of Indis. Now he has become great, and he has his father in his hand. It will not be long before he drives you forth from Túna!'

And when Melkor saw that these lies were smouldering, and that pride and anger were awake among the Noldor, he spoke to them concerning weapons; and in that time the Noldor began the smithying of swords and axes and spears. Shields also they made displaying the tokens of many houses and kindreds that vied one with another; and these only they wore abroad, and of other weapons they did not speak, for each believed that he alone had received the warning. And Fëanor made a secret forge, of which not even Melkor was aware; and there he tempered fell swords for himself and for his sons, and made tall helms with plumes of red. Bitterly did Mahtan rue the day when he taught to the husband of Nerdanel all the lore of metalwork that he had learned of Aulë.

Thus with lies and evil whisperings and false counsel Melkor kindled the hearts of the Noldor to strife; and of their quarrels came at length the end of the high days of Valinor and the evening of its ancient glory. For Fëanor now began openly to speak words of rebellion against the Valar, crying aloud that he would depart from Valinor back to the world without, and would deliver the Noldor from thraldom, if they would follow him.

#3 Reason: It allowed Melkor to return to Middle Earth, where he reunited with his legions, and was able to inflict untold pain and suffering apon the free-folk.

#4 Reason: Manwë should have known better. He may have 'understood most clearly Ilúvatar's purposes', but that does not prevent him from making wise, correct decisions such as not releasing Melkor.
Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
...and it seemed to Manwë that the evil of Melkor was cured. For Manwë was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew that in the beginning, in the thought of Ilúvatar, Melkor had been even as he; and he saw not to the depths of Melkor's heart, and did not perceive that all love had departed from him for ever. But Ulmo was not deceived, and Tulkas clenched his hands whenever he saw Melkor his foe go by; for if Tulkas is slow to wrath he is slow also to forget.
So it seemed that Ulmo was not decieved by Melkor hiding his hatred, and Tulkas had the common sense to know that evil had not left Melkor. Yet Manwë was considered mightier than these two, but was still ignorant enough to trust Melkor. Doesn't sound like Manwë's decision was 'all correct'...
Manwë made a mistake because he was fooled by Melkor. He thought Melkor had repented- but he had not. Freeing Melkor was not a correct decision on Manwë's part.

[Gothmog]

It was OK for Manwë to pardon Melkor!

Not only was it OK for Manwë to pardon Melkor it was necessary both by honour and will of
Ilúvatar.

By honour as Arvedui has already pointed out the Valar had tried Melkor in the Ring of Doom and Manwë had then sentenced him to dwell for three ages in Mandos before being brought to new trial or to sue for pardon. For Melkor to be detained in Mandos for any longer than this would require that in the second trial Manwë would have to find fresh evidence that Melkor had not reformed. Since this did not happen Manwë was bound by his own word to release Melkor from the Halls of Mandos.

Yet even without fresh evidence Manwë did not grant full freedom as was also pointed out by Arvedui. It was only after the Valar and the Quendi had already had much help from Melkor that he was allowed the freedom of Aman.

By the will of Ilúvatar we have to look at more than just the actions that led to his imprisonment in the first place. Indeed, we have to go back to before the creation of Arda itself. Melkor was chief amongst the Ainur of the Great Music and sang (albeit a little out of tune) in all three of the Themes of Ilúvatar and was a very important ingredient throughout the Music.
Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.' From the Sil
Knowing most of the will of Ilúvatar, Manwë would have a difficult time going against this without very good reason.

So then. Let us now look at the reasons given by Aulë.
Reason #1: Because Melkor was released, he was able to enlist the services of Ungoliant, and thefore the Two Trees of Valinor were destroyed Yes it is true that the Trees of Valinor were indeed destroyed. However, this led to the fruit and flower that became the Sun and the Moon that lit far more than Valinor alone. The Sun and the Moon lit the whole of Arda and set the time for the awakening of Men. Ilúvatar had decided that Men should awake at the first rising of the Sun. So far as the Elves were concerned it had already been decided that “Great Light would be for their waning” This could not have come to be had Melkor been kept in Mandos. So despite the harm that was done the destruction of the Trees caused a far greater good which as Ilúvatar had foretold Melkor did not intend nor any of the Valar imagine.
#2 Reason: Because Melkor was released, he was able to spin his web of lies apon the Noldor (esp. the sons of Finwë), which caused them to rebel, and be exiled from Valinor. And had all the Noldor remained in Valinor I wonder what would have happened to the Elves of Middle-earth. While Melkor was locked in Mandos, Sauron was preparing for his return by building up the armies of orcs and other fell creatures of the darkness. If Melkor remained locked up how long would it have been before Sauron or Gothmog started the wars of Beleriand? And without the help of the Noldor how long could any of the Elves of Middle-earth hold against them. Doriath alone had power for that and even Melian was limited in what she could do.

It was the exile of the Noldor that led to the destruction of the vast armies of Melkor built up by Sauron. No exile, no War of Wrath, No free Elves in ME.
#3 Reason: It allowed Melkor to return to Middle Earth, where he reunited with his legions, and was able to inflict untold pain and suffering apon the free-folk. Sauron or Gothmog would probably have done so anyway. Sauron was building the armies through the three ages that Melkor was locked up. After Melkor was cast out from Arda Sauron worked for himself.
#4 Reason: Manwë should have known better. He may have 'understood most clearly Ilúvatar's purposes', but that does not prevent him from making wise, correct decisions such as not releasing Melkor. Manwë made a mistake because he was fooled by Melkor. He thought Melkor had repented- but he had not. Freeing Melkor was not a correct decision on Manwë's part. That Manwë was fooled by Melkor Master of Lies is not the question. Were it as simple as that there would be no need for a debate. The question asks if Manwë was Correct (that is “Proper . In accordance with an approved way of behaving or working”) to pardon Melkor. This Manwë was by way of honourable behaviour and working to the will of Ilúvatar.

All of Aulë’s points refer to what was in the future of which the Valar did not have full knowledge. They knew much of what was to come but only Ilúvatar knew all of the story of Arda. No matter what, Manwë could not go against Ilúvatar’s will. Knowing most of this he could tell that Melkor still had a part to play in the following age.

[Anamatar IV]

The debate will close Tomorrow, August 4, at 11: 34 PM EST.

[Anamatar IV]

Just a head's up here! The debate closes tonight at 11: 34 PM EST, though I may not be here to close the debate at that time. If I am not, any and all posts after that will be nullified. I'll start the judging thread shortly after.