The HISTORY behind the LOTR

[taj]

The LOTR has a lot of ‘history’ attatched to the story with all the names that Tolkien created and all the geographical aspects aswell as detailed info on the actual characters past. If Tolkien had not done this do you think you would have liked the story as much as you do? ALSO if another fantasy book attempted to create a whole new world in the same fashion as Tolkien but along a differnt storyline of course, would you reject it and say it was just a copy of Tolkien -therefore would you prefer the ideal fantasy book to NOT have a historical background as it would offend the originality of Tolkien's work.

[Rhumatad]

i think that the fact that tolien has so carefully created the entire history of middle earth it makes the story feel not just like a novel, but a journey into another world.
as far as someone else attempting a similar creation, in order to be compared to toliens work, they would have to put in years of work and have incredible imagination as tolkien did.
it would depend on how different the story was and whether or not it was just a reshuffling and rewording of tolkiens tales, but i think i could enjoy another fantasy book.

[Merry]

I much prefer the history and background to middle-earth. It feels like you are actually there in M-E rather than looking at it through a window. Although fantasy, it becomes very real and you can picture events and how and why things happened. I hate reading vague stories that do not explain the background to the main plot.

The Silmarillion has opened up LOTR completely and I can't wait to read it again!

[LugniGrond]

wouldnt it be fun to have a book totally written in elvish???:D

[Grond]

Gad! I've been away merely two days and look at all the new names. Well, let me start off by saying Hail and well met to all of our new members.

On the subject of the world and histories of JRRT, I feel that the books would still have been just as great without all of the additional (volumes) of reference works. Having said that, they are much more enjoyable when related to the ancient history that they are derived from. You got a question about Legolas, likely to find the answer in one of the other works. aka Sil, HoME, UT, etc.

That's what keeps me coming back again and again and again.:)

[Evenstar]

I love that Tolkien created a new world with the ME. Although the story would be great on its own the depth allows you to feel as if your really there. I haven't read all the other volumes but I can't wait until I do.

[Lantarion]

Reading the LotR, or all of Tolkien's works, really, is like reading a very entertaining history book, with most of the boring dates left out. This is because he has created such an extensive history and lifestyle for all of the different races on all of the different lands (and continents). Creating a language would be enough to convince me, especially if it was an Elvish language :) ; but creating an entire World and Universe around those languages, complete with names, places, characters, animals, events and climates perfect for this world is far too splendid to be fully expressed in words.
Kolme eläköön- huutoa JRRT:lle!!

[Moonbeams]

Yes, I belive LotR would be just as liked if it was only LotR, without the history. When I read it first, I didn't know for years there was so much more treasure to be found, and yet I loved the book, above all others. And I still do. But I stopped comparing other books to LotR a long time ago, because, really, can you compare any fantasy book to LotR and Sil, and History of ME?
I belive there are good fantasy books to be found, that also create worlds and histories. I've been reading Katherine Kerr's Deverry cronicles for some time, and they are much fun, very nice world, good imagination, and she managed to escape the shadow of Tolkien.
As long as authors can do that, escape the shadow of Tolkien I mean, and create their own worlds, I will not reject them. But you really can't start comparing any of them to Tolkien. Next to him, the all look weak and childish.

[curious_nomad]

Several authors have created new worlds with entirely different stories but ultimately some Tolkien is in each. Clearly, Robert Jordan couldn't get the image of mydraal without the Ringwraiths.
(Non-WOTer's mydraal are creatures who look like men entirely clothed in black with blades that cause an evil taint that will eventually kill a man and ride black horses and have no eyes. Sound familiar?) Also Jordan calls his main Anatagonist the Dark Lord. The Dark Lord also lives in a mountain. And Lan is a lord who is the last of his line defending his lost country. Similar to Aragorn no?

DnD is so Tolkien-ish it isn't even funny. The good people at TSR said that if Hobbit wasn't copyrighted the halfling race would be hobbits. The Balrog is remained a Baatzeu and is basically put straight into the game.

In the Chronicles of Narnia it is stated that the White Witch has many spies. Birds and beasts and plants and trees. Again familiar?

Even Star Wars draws from Tolkien. What do you think the Dark Side is? i.e. Saruman is a jedi who falls to the dark side because it's tempting. Annakin Skywalker is Saruman while Obi-Wan-Kenobi is Gandalf.

Harry Potter's Voldemort is nicknamed, He-Who-Is-Not-Named. Gee.... The Acromantula that Harry faces in the Forbidden Forest is awfully like Shelob.

All fantasy workd will have some Tolkien reference if you search hard enough. After all, Tolkien is the father of modern fantasy.

[Grond]

Hail and well met, curious_nomad. I enjoyed your informative post and hope you will continue to contribute to our humble forum.

[curious_nomad]

OK, I stand corrected. Not all fantasy series have Tolkien reference. (Wrinkle in Time, Indian is the Cupboard...)

But I'll say, most medieval fantasy stories have Tolkien references or ideas(as in plot/character not theme) in them.

[Rian]

It is not surprising that some fantasies have a Tolkien ring to them (no pun intended). LOTR brings forth the classic struggle between Good and Evil. It was a brilliant work to which I have never found its equal.

It is not surprising that Tolkien and C.S.Lewis have some things in common with their writings. I believe that I read somewhere that they were friends and belonged to the same writer's group. They were bound to rub off on each other.

Still, I don't think I would've fell in love with LOTR if it weren't for the Hobbit. I loved these works even more after I learned how much time and energy Tolkien put into the creation Middle Earth.

[Lantarion]

It's almost impossible to write a fantasy novel and NOT have a Tolkien-ring (very well put, Rian) to it; because even if they have never read Tolkien, they have probably read other fantasy authors. As Tolkien was the first *modern* fantasy novelist, how can any fantasy work after him be completely different to the LotR?? Some are so similar it's like the writer stole the entire idea from him. But most fantasy novels today are based on some basic points, not listed but made up by Tolkien:
1. A whole new language
2. Created maps
3. Confusing, and hopefully exciting history.
This is how I purpose to write a fantasy novel (if I ever get to it); but, IMO, anything I, or anybody else writes cannot equal the brilliance of Tolkien.

[Wide Boy]

At the risk of committing sacrilege, aren't we forgetting that Tolkien drew much of his inspiration and much of the cosmology of his world from Middle English, Norse and other sources? It was after all his interest in those things and his professional interest in their language that sparked his imagination in the first place (among other influences, of course).

For example, Middle Earth is a translation of Midgard. The name Gandalf appears in the Poetic Edda. There are lots of other examples. This is not to deny the act of imagination or creation of JRRT, but to illustrate that any work of this nature is going to draw on other sources. It is a bit much to say Tolkien is the father of modern fantasy when he drew so much inspiration of works that were hundreds of years old and which were themselves rooted in legends much older. Tolkien was not even the first to present legends in an heroic fantasy novelisation. We can go back as far as Mallory's Morte d'Arthur for that and there were many others in between.

What Tolkien represents for me is an excellence of story telling craft which he combines with an ability to draw on inspiration in a way that is original, respectful of its origins and enhances those origins to a point where they become something entirely new and wonderful. I'm not trying to say that his work is derivative; it is not. It is something far beyond its inspirations. But let's not demean his achievements by ascribing a status to them which they neither have nor require.

Tolkien is not the father of anything except little Tolkiens. The fact that many authors are inspired by him, "borrow" from him or outright steal from him is irrelevant, other than to underscore his importance in bringing fantasy to a point of being one of the most important fiction genre of the last 30 years.

On the question of whether a fantasy is better if created from scratch or using inspiration, I think it is debatable that anyone can create a world from scratch without being at least sub-consciously influenced by the things they have experienced, read, heard, encountered, whatever. So long as they do at least half as well as Tolkien (still a tall order) that is good enough for me. I doubt if anyone will ever do it better.

[Lantarion]

Bump.
This is an interesting topic IMO; please add your thoughts!

I agree that Tolkien drew from existing myths and legendariums to create his cosmology and own mythos, but I see that as only a tribute to those ancient tales. To have a great scholar use those as sources of inspiration can only be flattering, and can only have an augmenting effect in the mind of the reader.
And despite his sources of inspiration, Tolkien's created Universe is wholly original and fantastically sprawling with intricasies and detail that are lacking from the vague, ambiguous and even intimidating legends of e.g. the Eddas or the Kalevala; and even they were based upon beliefs and religions. Who thought them up?