The Church: Corporation, Hypocritical or not?

[Scatha]

Throughout time, from the dark ages and even before, the churches have been amassing wealth. The shiny exterior is said to be divine, but in reality they sit on more wealth then they need, without distributing it, while they preach to aid the poor.

The worst of them all is the catholic church, who sits on a wealth in their basements, that far exceeds comprehension. Gathered throughout time as items of the devil or not suited for the public.

More gold shimmers within their churches then there is on the free market, most of it genuine.

Now is this not hypocricy?

[Celebthôl]

Its disgusting is what it is!

Its all corruption, and who has the power to stand up against it? Eliot Ness ;) i doubt it, if you do stand up to them and it is against God, and if you get passed that, they would probibly kill you concidering that ammount of money and saftey they have. They are untouchable (wow thats startin to get familiar :rolleyes: ) :mad:.

[Eriol]

If this is a Church-bashing thread, have fun without me guys. If you want to discuss facts, to reason about it, and other similar things, I'de be honored to participate.

Just to spur discussion: does the Church help the poor? What is the Church's doctrine about wealth? Is "amassing wealth" a sin?

This is the kind of question we must explore.

[Celebthôl]

From what i have seen the poorer churches who cant really affor it help the poor, whilst the richer ones sit on their thrones of gold all smug looking out for number one.

I have no idea.

No, but hoarding it and not helping the poor as they should is surely against God, its against my morals certainly.

[reem]

Originally posted by Eriol
Just to spur discussion: does the Church help the poor? What is the Church's doctrine about wealth? Is "amassing wealth" a sin?
.
i don't know, is it? i haven't read past the first few pages of the bible, and my not ebing christain doesn't help improve my ignorance on that head. but isn't supose to be 'give and keep not'?? or something like that?:)
thou personally, in my religion, it says that it's ok to 'amass' wealth, as long as you don't turn into a scrooge or waist it on frivilous stuff, and i am sorry to say i have seen alot of waisting of money on gold cepters and other such things when it comes to some ceremonies.
but please correct me if i'm wrong. i would have it no other way!;):p
reem

[Thorin]

It is wrong to say that the Church (Catholic or Protestant) hasn't helped the poor using its wealth. Does the church amass wealth? How can it not? It is its own government and the largest religio-political power in the world. Of course it will be gain wealth.

However, as we look at history, we see how the church became so wealthy and we see corruption and a moving away from the original apostolic church. Christ and his disciples preached the word of God in poverty in contrast to the wealthy Pharisees. Their message and how they understood God was also part of that lifestyle. Then somewhere in the Middle Ages, the church became lofty and proud and began to substitute rituals and pomp in place of the word of God and humility. The church basically switched places with Pharisees and persecuted those Christians wanting to proclaim the gospel as Jesus did. This is not made more obvious by the monastic orders that began to distance themselves from the church to rediscover the simple gospel truths of Christ both in lesson and action. The Church had even become to worldy for them. Amazing how roles switch when power and money take control.

Wealth was accomodated through indulgences and calls to crusade. Sins were bought off and church coffers were filling. Cathedrals, grand and magnificent were built off of these 'offerings' and the church became more corrupt. Simony was rampant and the church began to bed political allies who appointed themselves or were appointed by church leaders to the throne of the Papacy.

What about today? Contrast the wealth of the popes to a Catholic servant like Mother Theresa who was fulfilling the gospel commission rather than uplifting their rituals and pomp of popes and cardinals and you see a major contrast.

Does that mean we should sell all and live like lepers? No. However, in any church, power and money will corrupt and the church needs to ask themselves, have we moved so far into politics and the world that we are forgetting the message and life of Christ?

Something to ponder.

[Eriol]

Good post, Thorin; and you are right, it's something to ponder. But just as I don't condemn the random rich guy as a sinner just because he has not shared his wealth, I do not condemn the church (Catholic or not) just because it has not shared its wealth. Wealth in itself is not sinful; this is the Catholic doctrine (I hope this answers your question reem :) ). Now, to call the Catholic Church "hypocritical" means that it does not do what it preaches, in other words, that its doctrine is unlike its practice.

That is why we have to ask what is the Church's doctrine about it, Thôl; without that we can never call it "hypocritical". We can say that the Church is wrong; but there is a difference between hypocrisy and an honest mistake. If you believe that all wealth should be shared, you are disagreeing with the Church's doctrine, you think that it is mistaken; and you have to take your complaint to Jesus Christ, since the doctrine came from Him.

But the Church (as any other organization) can be hypocritical; if it does not follow its own doctrine.

The only answer to your excellent invitation to ponder about this, Thorin, is to remember that love is the fulfilling of the law; that the Church should guide all of her decisions upon love. The Church sometimes strays off the path; the many reforms that took place within Her show that. But it is still the Church, the keeper of Christ's doctrine. When She goes wrong, it is by failing to follow this doctrine.

I think that your take on it, Thorin, is very good; and completely unrelated to Scatha's views (in my opinion, and I hope he comes forward to tell me that I'm wrong if in fact I am :D). When Scatha accuses the Church of "hypocrisy", he is (I think) assuming that the Church's doctrine is that wealth is in fact a sin; and that everybody should share all of their possessions. And he thinks that the Church is going against her own teachings when She keeps wealth. That's mistaken.

I'll wait for more input before we get into those questions...

[Samwise_hero]

Why is it that you say all churches participate in keeping stashes of money. Not all churches are the same as each other. not all forms of religions that practice in churches are the same either. why do you bag them up as one?

[Scatha]

Very well worded Thorin. :)

Eriol, my point I tried to make, is that the churches in general are indeed going against their teachings. For them to teach one thing and not do so themselves, is that not hypocricy?

[Eriol]

Yes, it is hypocrisy; and this is why we must know what the Church's teaching about property and wealth are before reaching a conclusion about this. Do you know these teachings, Scatha?

[Scatha]

In a lot of churches in the netherlands, the congregation are asked to donate 10% of their income to the church.

It is requested from the wealthy, that they contribute more.
In local churches, this is mainly used to maintain the church, the rest to be spent on charity cases.

The homeless in the netherlands are generally taken care of by the taxes, which are used by city hall to keep the projects for them running.

The life of christ is still being taught within the church, aka we go back to Thorin's point on that. Though most monasteries do what is being taught, they send the money they do not need to the mother church. Sometimes the other way around, if money is scarce.

What remains is that a lot of this gathered money does not go anywhere, thus not distributed to aid the poor, as taught in the bible.

Samwise, I bag them up, because most of them do what is being discussed here, the islam, the catholic church, the mormons, they all do exactly the same.

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Scatha
In a lot of churches in the netherlands, the congregation are asked to donate 10% of their income to the church.
You speak here of tithing. Tithing is a biblical mandate and not necessarily a charity situation. 10 percent of income goes to God no matter what the church uses it for. It is not our concern but God's.

Outside of that, there are suggested offerings that are needed to go to mission projects or local community ministries (between 2-5% of income), however that is usually up to the discretion of the individual church goer as God has blessed them. Outside of that is just charitable donations from any individual who feels a burden on their heart for an area of church ministry.

However (with the exception of tithe) these are more individual matters. I think the issue here (especially with the Catholic Church as an example) if the church itself is wealthy, what are some of the things it should be doing with that money outside of parishoner contribution?

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Scatha
In a lot of churches in the netherlands, the congregation are asked to donate 10% of their income to the church.

It is requested from the wealthy, that they contribute more.
In local churches, this is mainly used to maintain the church, the rest to be spent on charity cases.

The homeless in the netherlands are generally taken care of by the taxes, which are used by city hall to keep the projects for them running.

The life of christ is still being taught within the church, aka we go back to Thorin's point on that. Though most monasteries do what is being taught, they send the money they do not need to the mother church. Sometimes the other way around, if money is scarce.

What remains is that a lot of this gathered money does not go anywhere, thus not distributed to aid the poor, as taught in the bible.

Samwise, I bag them up, because most of them do what is being discussed here, the islam, the catholic church, the mormons, they all do exactly the same.

Two main sentences here Scatha:

"the congregation are asked to donate 10% of their income..."

Asked to donate; it is voluntary. The tithe is NOT mandatory in the Catholic Church (I don't know about other churches), being a matter of individual conscience. People do it if they want to do it. If you disapprove, your complaint is with the donors, not with the receivers.

"What remains is that a lot of this gathered money does not go anywhere, thus not distributed to aid the poor, as taught in the bible."

This is a factual error. The Church has many works with the poor. Research it and you will be amazed. The Church does not advertise it, for it follows Christ's teaching that "the right hand should not know what the left hand is doing".

Unless you think that all money should be distributed to the poor. That's an idea that can be discussed, but it is not a biblical principle. The Bible preaches charity, the voluntary self-sacrifice, and not forcible redistribution.

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by Eriol

"the congregation are asked to donate 10% of their income..."

And if they choose not to donate, the rest of the congrigation holds it against them, aswell as the church, i HAVE seen that before :mad: :(

[Scatha]

Originally posted by Eriol
Research it and you will be amazed. The Church does not advertise it, for it follows Christ's teaching that "the right hand should not know what the left hand is doing".


That is one of the main problems, Eriol, for the left hand indeed knows not what the right one does. A lot of their funds are stuck in the middle of being used and to be used.

Now I don't claim to know how it works in other countries, but in the netherlands, if you do not contribute 10% of your income, you will find yourself being either excommunicated or being shunned by the congregation. I hardly call that voluntary.

[Eriol]

I won't say that I don't believe you, Scatha, for (in spite of the legend :D) Rome can be very lenient. But I know Catholic doctrine about it; it IS voluntary. If in the Netherlands it is forced, they are not in agreement with Rome; it is a local problem of Dutch bishops. That is (or should be) the position of the clergy.

As for the congregation shunning people who don't contribute, well, in Brazil and in Italy (my sister's testimony ;) ) no one checks how much money you contribute; some baskets are carried by children at a given moment in the Mass and people put folded bills in it. No one knows how much the others are contributing, and many people just give nothing, staying in their seats (if the baskets are stationary) or not putting anything in the baskets (if the baskets are carried by the children along the church).

For the congregation to shun anyone who does not contribute is, of course, a sin against charity.