Allusions in Lord of the Rings

[legandir]

Hello everyone !

I was thinking of a research project but wanted to run it through here to see if it was viable, had already been done, or what general ideas it conjured up.

I was thinking about putting together a list of all allusions to the pre-history of Middle Earth that are found in the LOTRs. I think it would be interesting to go through all the chapters of LOTR and list in order all the references to stories in the Silmarillion and such - almost like 'a bibliography of works cited ' and how it relates to the passage in LOTR.

Any ideas, suggestions ?

[Maedhros]

Do you mean something like this:
From The Lord of the Rings: The Palantír
And how it draws one to itself! Have I not felt it? Even now my heart desires to test my will upon it, to see if I could not wrench it from him and turn it where I would-to look across the wide seas of water and of time to Tirion the Fair, and perceive the unimaginable hand and mind of Fëanor at their work, while both the White Tree and the Golden were in flower!' He sighed and fell silent.

[legandir]

A listing out of the quote followed by it's reference to the older (chronologically) material.
Noted out uniformly like that used for footnoting - I feel that for first time readers this might be distracting but for someone who is very interested in the Lore of Middle Earth this might prove to be very rewarding -

Maedhros - is there something like this in existence ? I would be willing to work on such a project.

[Maedhros]

You mean then an Annotated Lord of the Rings?

I don't think there is such a project in the makings. It would be a great deal of work. I was going to propose a project but of a different kind. We can divide the chapters to others who are willing to help.

[Eöl]

I'm up for it...I'm re-reading LotR right now anyways, it should be easy to catch stuff as I read.

[Inderjit S]

Why need a Annotated LoTR when you have got the hoME volums 6-9 (Well the first half of 9) which are in essence 'annotations' of LoTR.

Well, we get references to Silmarillion on several occasions, some maybe 'hidden'. First, in Three Is Company we meet Gildor Inglorion, a leader of a group of Elves, residing in the Woody End after a visit to the White Towers and a look in Elendil's Palantir. They are singing a song for Elbereth. Gildor's second name 'Inglorion' means scion of Inglor. Inglor was a early name for Finnrod, whilst his father Finarfin was named Finrod. At the time of writing LoTR Finrod's name was 'Inglor' so one wonders if at this time Tolkien envisioned Gildor as a son or grand-son of Finrod? Of courrse the story that Finrod was in love with Amarie hadn't yet appeared. Nor had the story that he was Gil-Galad's father and that his wife was a Sindarin lady named Meril appeared. At this time Gil-Galad was a descendant of Feanor, though his lineage often changed. Anyhow, enough rambling, I am wondering is this the kind of speculations that you are looking for or are you looking for something else?

[Lhunithiliel]

I find the idea very interesting whatever you call the project itself.
May I participate too?

I remember reading how Tolkien was reluctant to tell those stories from the past ("hinted" in the LOTR) because he was saying sth. like (I don't have the exact quote now) these "hints" make the LOTR - story more interesting! And that if he were to tell the stories behind those "hints" it would spoil the beauty of the main story itself... that having those "hints" in the LOTR-story - "hints" to events from the depths of the history of ME - was like watching the towers of an ancient castle from afar and enjoying the beauty of imagining what the history of those towers might be... and that if you went closer to that 'castle" you'd spoil the mystery and the fantasy...

He might have been right... I guess.. but I remember when reading LOTR it were those "hints" that made me look for the Silmarillion and later - for the the HoMe-series and the UT...

So, if you let me... I am in! :)

[legandir]

Inderjit S, you are getting the hang of it. Frankly those are impressive references from that chance meeting in LOTR !

We all know that Tolkien did not name his people, places and things arbitrarily - the names can tell more of story than what the actual written passages elucidate.

Another example would be when Tom Bombadil rescues the hobbits from the Barrow Wight, I believe its Merry that wakes up saying something like ' the enemy from Carn Dum, oh the spear in my heart' - this would be reference to the Arnor realms battle with the Witch King. So here the words at the event are enriched beyond the text published in Fellowship.

Im not exactly sure what would be the best way to compile this information - any ideas or suggestions ?
Obviously we want ease of annotation but also should consider ease of use when done.

[Feanorian]

Another example would be when Tom Bombadil rescues the hobbits from the Barrow Wight, I believe its Merry that wakes up saying something like ' the enemy from Carn Dum, oh the spear in my heart' - this would be reference to the Arnor realms battle with the Witch King.

Another example would be when Gandalf mentions the Valar at the coronation of Aragorn, or the mention of the sacking of Gondolin in The Hobbit.

I think this is a good and fun idea....although if we are doing that I don't know how much I can participate because I am already doing some stuff with some writings on top of my other 'real life' stuff.

[Inderjit S]

Another example would be when Gandalf mentions the Valar at the coronation of Aragorn

The Valar are also mentioned by Damrod, who utters a prayer, of sorts, to turn aside the Mumakil.

Aman is mentioned in Farmair's talk, when the Numenoreans have a ritual to pray to the West, to Numenor that once was and to Aman that is. He also discusses the Marachains, and their descendants, the Rohhirm, as Of Dwarves and Men tells us of large Marachain tribes residing in between the Iron Hills and the Sea of Rhun, though a lot had alliances with the Longbeards of Moria, so many may have resided in 'Rhovanion' and did.

Tolkien describes Theoden as being like Orome, the Valar, and there is a interesting reference to the Valar's early wars.

Elrond mentions the 'great Elf-friends', and says Frodo has a part with them. He names, Beren, Turin, Hurin and Hador. At this stage of the mythology, Hador was the one who lead the 'Marachains' into Beleriand, not Marach as it later became. The genealogies of the houses of Men only really developed to what they were in the Published Silmarillion in the Latter Quenta Silmarillion; Of the Coming of Men therefore when Faramir is talking about the people who were related to the Hadorians, Tolkien enviasages that they were people who split from Hador himself, who led the Haodrians into Beleriand, not Marach as it later became.

Aragorn's last words at his cornonation 'ambar-metta' translate to 'end of the world' and may be a reference to the Dagor Dagorath, though I think the whole speech is just a re-itereation of Elendil's words when he arrived in M-E.

When Sam and Frodo are talking after they have climbed the two stairs, into Mordor, they talk about their tale being a continuation of others, such as Earendils, as they see his ship-star in the sky,and Sam talks about some of the light being in Galadriel's phial, a reference to the great music, maybe.

Shelob, is a survivor of the first age, a daughter of Ungoliant.

There are a few more examples off the top of my head.

[legandir]

Hey Everyone,

Ive been away but now im back. I am formulating a plan to carry this out - but so many other things have required my attention.

Regarding Tolkien I have been tinkering around with putting english lit into Tengwar (an absurd hobby, I know) but the Bibliography of LOTR to the History of Middle Earth series is still in consideration.
If ive been away too long and interest has died I will understand. But as the weather is getting colder around here I foresee some time to begin the project in earnest.

[Elfarmari]

I would definitely be interested in helping make an annotated LotR! This would be a very interesting project to do!