Round 5 debate : outcast vs Scholars

[omnipotent_elf]

heres the judging thread
my comments will come later

[Gothmog]

My congratulations to the participants of this debate. Very good arguments by both sides.

Nóm opened this debate with a good solid statement giving her view and the position of the team of the Outcasts. However, she then went on to say that :-Miriel approved of the second marriage and was happy that Finwe was happy, and spoke highly of Indis and her children. To me this would have carried more weight if supported by a quote from one of the books. After this Nóm continued in the post to lay the groundwork for defending her position.

Maedhros opened by giving a definition of the word “Correct” as “Free from error or fault.” He then followed this with quotes showing that by this definition it was not possible for the second marriage of Finwe to be “Correct” as it was flawed by Finwe’s actions with regard to Miriel and his demand for Justice which led to the Statute allowing him to remarry.

Nóm countered that the faults of Finwe that led to the Statute were not relevant to the question of the debate as the Finwe/Miriel case was already in the past before Finwe fell in love with Indis and therefore it was only the reasons of Love and wish for children that should be considered. Maedhros argued that the case of Finwe/Miriel could not be left out. The rest of the debate centred around this.

For the most part of the debate I found that both sides were equal. So far as the question of past faults goes, both had good points. It is true that present events are indeed influenced by what has happened in the past. But if this is taken too literally then all acts become incorrect because of a flaw or error in the past.

For me this debate came down to a matter of “Definition”. Maedhros gave a definition of the word “Correct” and then built his argument upon this. Feanorian came in with a post backing this position. Nóm unfortunately did not challenge this very important point, there are a number of definitions of this word which could have been used to argue against Maedhros.

So by a very slender margin my vote goes to The Guild of Scholars.

I thank all how posted for a very enjoyable debate.

[omnipotent_elf]

Great debate both teams

In spite of this debate predominantly being between two debators( with the help of Feanorian), it contained some of the best detail i have seen thus far.

Both styles in which the debators chose proved helpful to their arguments. The GoS (to me) chose to rely more on the evidence. This meant they didnt expand on their arguemnts to their fullest extent. The GoO used evidence to great effect while sturcturing a big arguement around it.

apart from this, i felt that the debate was entirely equal but i will give my vote to the Guild of Outcasts. Great debate all. Thanx

[Beleg]

The debate started with Outcasts giving a succinct account of their belief.
They said that Finwe was correct in remarrying because his ex-wife approved of the first marriage and was happy because Finwe was happy.
The outcasts further pointed out that Finwe's eldest son, Feanor disapproved of the marriage because of his faulty nature because of his dislike of events that didn't went his way.
Although they point out Feanor's resentment of Indis they are quick to say that Feanor didn't hate his father and there was great love between them, that he only resented Indis because of his grief on the death of his mother.
But their main point was that Feanor's attitude towards Finwe and Indis' marriage wasn't reasonable.


Another main point conerning legalities,
Posted by Nom
Finwe's bereavement was unfair, which was why the just Statute was made, and Finwe granted the permission to remarry. Therefore, even 'legally' speaking, what Finwe did was not wrong.
Outcasts further claim that Finwe was not one to make bad decisions for selfish or otherwise bad reasons.
They base this claim on the point that Finwe went with his son in banishment and Finwe gave up his life so that Miriel could return.
One could argue that Finwe's going with Feanor was out of sheer love, and by the look of it, didn't sound a very wise decision.

Posted by Nom
The Eldar married out of love, and always at their own freewill. Elves had a right to marry whoever they chose to marry. Even though the Eldar often sought approval, it was not unlawful to do so without 'permission'.

So Outcasts are suggesting that it was lawful for Indis and Finwe to marry, although the permission talked about is basically about approval from the parents, which is not in contention here, besides the circumstance here were different and as Outcasts point out, demanded a decision that was not common and hadn't been taken before.

Outcasts conclude their opening arguement by saying that Finwe married out of love and that was the right thing to do.


Posted by Nom
Finwe married for the same reason most others marry - out of love. Such a thing is not incorrect. Not even for an Elven King with a grown son who has issues.

Personal assesment of Outcasts' opening arguement: It was fairly good with outcasts deciding against the usage of Quotes, which I feel might have strengthened their claim at some places. Their strongest claim perhaps was that Miriel, the ex-wife was happy with the marriage, and their arguement concerning Finwe's martial bevearment was also good. A weak part of their arguement could be their suggestion that Finwe wouldn't make bad decisions for selfish or otherwise reasons.

Scholar's opening arguement

The Scholar's responded in their typical style.
They started with giving a defination of the word 'correct'.
'Free from error or fault'

They provided a Quote from Morgoth's Ring, concerning the debate of the Valar, presenting Ulmo's assesment of the claim of Finwe for a second marriage.

A fine move I would say which they backed later by mentioning Finwe's selfish motives.

They claim that
Posted by Meadhros
The difficulty posed by Míriel should have only strengthened the love between them, but it had the opposite effect because Finwë could not have patience with his wife and was more grieved at his lost than that of Míriel. Failure of love.

Thus they accuse Finwe of failure of love. As the title of the post says, this is Scholar's main point.
Posted by Meadhros
It was the highest form of hope that Finwë forsook because of his desire for other children, thinking that his suffering was greater than that of his wife. Shameful.

Thus in Scholar's opinion, Finwe was not correct because his action represented failure of love and denial of hope and patience.
The Scholar's are very vocal about the failure of love and emphasize on it a great deal.
Comments: I'll have to say that both opening posts were great and If were to judge the debate based on them, It would definately be a draw.



Later

Outcasts try to refute the failure in love and hope arguements of Scholars by saying that that's not what the debate Question asks. They post quite an effective post regarding this matter.
They also point out that wanting children wasn't the only motive behind Finwe's desire of remarrying, and there was love between him and his spouse.
Outcasts, rather unsuccessfully, try to negate Scholar's claim concerning Finwe's self induced pity, though I think It is quite clear from Ulmo's words that Finwe thought of his grief more then that of Miriel's.
GOS post a reasonable statement concerning Miriel's affair's involvement in the second marriage, but at this moment the balance is in favor of GOo.


Posted by Meadhros
Unfortunately, there is a flaw in this. Finwë wanted to have more children. He was already married to Míriel. Did Finwë's desire to have more children really outweights the patience and suffering that he and his wife Míriel must endure in order to overcome this? Why did he push for a stature that would free him to have more children, and not let his wife heal with time.

Very good points.

GOS reinstate their dented arguement concerning failing of hope.
Thus at that point, It seems that GOo reasons are,

1. The Miriel affair was a past affair, and that the statute was just and correct so Finwe could re-marry for a seemingly selfish reason.

2. That their was love between him and Indis and that he desired to have more children.

So far GOS has been able to,

1. Show that Miriel's affair WAS connected with the re-marriage.
Cast some doubts that statute was not correct.
2. Post a very ardent rebutal to Finwe's desire of remmarrying because of children, since It is the main component of the re-marriage. Here failing in love and hope butts in.


GOS says second marriage not correct because reasons for it have faults, what faults, failing in love and hope.

The debate later continues virtually around this point, with a few notable posts such as,
smashing of a few arguements of Nom by Feanorian.

You say 'surely she would have seen her faults later on...' but... why surely? All signs pointed to her not changing her mind.

Good point but could be countered.

GOo rebuted Feanorians poorly stated first arguement.
GOo flat arguement is maid void.


Posted by GOo
This is not a good reason that Finwe was incorrect to remarry. And as Mandos says, the tale of Arda will unfold because of these things Finwe did. Again, there was no deception on the part of Finwe.

A weak statement.

Decision:
All in all, I feel that both teams raised up valid points, but GOS was able to show that Finwe's reasons were based upon faults, and that the statute was faulty meaning that Finwe's reasons for re-marriage had faults in them.

Therefore my vote goes to Guild of Scholars.


Non-offical comments

I was surprised at the side Guild of Outcasts choose. It was disappointing to see that only 3 out of 8 members participated.
But I guess It couldn't be helped since a vast majority hasn't read HOME, and in Silmarillion, the topic is barely discussed.

[Celebthôl]

Well, that was a brilliant debate on both parts and very difficult to decide on.
Nice to see an all round team paticipation aswell :rolleyes: ;)

It was very close and I was swayed to either side more than a few times.

However, Guild of Outcasts takes my vote :)

Good job Nóm :)

Congratulations



~Celebthôl~

[Aulë]

Wonderful debating by both sides in this debate, and considering that I haven't read HoME10 before, and had little background knowledge on the topic, I found it to be quite interesting and informative.

The debate consisted of a fair bit of discussion on whether the Statute had flaws, and whether Finwë's flaws in the past made it incorrect for him to remarry.
Nóm and Maedhros both did sterling jobs, and my opinion on the topic swayed with every post.
This was a very close debate because of this, and either team doesn't deserve to lose.

I call a draw.

[Maedhros]

Omnipotent_elf
The GoS (to me) chose to rely more on the evidence. This meant they didnt expand on their arguemnts to their fullest extent.
Can you be more specific? What is the fullest extent?