Chapter XII: Of Men

[Nóm]

What do you think of the failure of the Valar to go to Hildorien and meet with men?

Did they spent all of their excitement and joy at the newness of the children of Iluvatar on the elves?
I wonder what the Avari thought of men. Did they know right away that these people were of a wholly different kind, or did they perhaps think men were elves with something wrong with them?

Finrod says in Athrabeth something to the effect that if men had been immortal in the beginning as some of the Edain held, then men would have been elves and that there would have therefore been no reason for Iluvatar to introduce them later on.

I do not understand how Finrod could be sure of that.

I don't know what else to ask, mostly because a lot of questons that might come up here have already been discussed all over the forum.

I suppose, you could just comment on the awakening of men or ask your own questions.


*******************

The story of the awakening and early days of men has seen a lot of change throughout the history of the developement of the mythology, but certain elements exist throughout. I will center of this for the chapter intro.

The first account we get is found in BoLT1, and there an elf name Nuin who wandered far away East, comes upon Murmenalda 'The vale of Sleep' and there he finds the men asleep.

This early version is the only occurance (that I know of) where the place of awakening of men, this Vale of Sleep, is told of in any detail, and also the only place were we actually get a look at the sleeping men! Quite a gem, in my opinion.

Murmenalda is described as this when Nuin happens upon it after having found his way through a pass in a mountain wall:
Suddenly about him there gushed the sweetest odours of the Earth - nor were more lovely fragrances ever upon the airs of Valinor, and he stood drinking in the scents with deep delight, and amid the fragrance of [?evening] flowers came the deep odours that many pines loosen upon the midnight airs.
Suddenly afar off down in the dark woods that lay above the valley's bottum a nightingale sang, and others answered palely afar off, and Nuin well-nigh swooned at the loveliness of that dreaming place, and he knew that he had trespassed upon Murmenalda or the "Vale of Sleep", where it is ever the time of first quiet dark beneath young stars, and no wind blows.

And the wonderful description of men sleeping in the twilight before they awoke in the world:
... and lo, benaeth the trees he saw the warm dusk full of sleeping forms, and some were twined each in the other's arms, and some lay sleeping gently alone, and Nuin stood and marvelled, scarce breathing.

However, this tale, and Nuin the Ikorin, and Murmenalda are not heard of again.


Anyhow, Nuin heads back west and reports all that happend to one Tu (a 'fay' and also called a wizard) who had much magic and had become a King of some Ikorins (those not of Kor) who tells Nuin to stay away from the sleeping men or else he will bring down the wrath of Eru himself. Well Nuin, being very curious, continued to go watch the sleeping men, and eventualy curiousity got the best and he woke up two of the sleepers and taught them speech among other things. It is to be noted that the two he woke up, Elmir and Elmon, were at first in fear, and that when the rest of the sleepers woke up, they were very affraid at the first night.

A curious thing about this early account is that the sleeping men seem to have been children in form but of a size greater than the elves. Nuin reports to Tu:
"and methought," said he, "that all who slumbered there were children, yet was their stature that of the greatest of the Elves."


Now CT does comment on this, but only the conclusion of what he says needs looking at now (I think):
That the sleepers were in fact children, not merely likenend in some way to children, is made clear in D: 'Nuin finds the Slumbrous Dale (Murmenalda) where countless sleeping children lie.'

So the sleepers were children, and countless.

Now Nuin was told by Tu that the 'New Children of Iluvatar' were waiting for light, and while Nuin did wake the first two in the dark, the rest did awaken at light. But already, the idea of men coming with the sunlight was in place, and it lasted long, and is found in the published Sil. Now in this tale the Sun first came out of the West and it was then that the sleepers awoke, though they followed it when it returned westard (Perhaps because of the fear they had at that night?). So the idea of men heading west after the light is already in place, but their are later variations.

Now there are no Annals acccompanying BoLT, so we have no date for the events here, but it can be noted that the awakening of men happens at the rising of the Sun, which happend after the return of the gnomes (Noldor), and hiding of Valinor. However, here we have men associating with elves and then with the gnomes at a seemingly earlier point, but before Nirnaeth all the same! This probably seems earlier, due to the lack of events between the return of the Noldor and the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. It is also noteworthy that even in this early tale, Melkor sent servants among men in their early days, and they perverted men who then fought treacherously against the Ikorins during war with goblins and those treacherous men who survived the battle fled south and east and went on to worship Melko and were 'wild and savage'. But not all men were won over by evil, for the people of Ermon remained true and fought beside Nuin though he died in battle because of treachery of men.

So already we have the fall of men and elf friends.

The major difference, seems to me, to be that here not all men were turned to evil at one point, whereas later versions even the ancestors of Edain had fallen into Melkor-worship in the past but had fled and repented.

Too bad we lose Nuin, being an elf-fanatic I had really taken to liking him... that little trouble-maker! :p

In 'S', The Sketch of the Mythology, or orginal/earliest Silmarillion (1926-30) found in HoME IV, there is of course no trance of Nuin or Murmenalda, but there it said men met with Ikorins and learned speech among other things. Here it is said that Ulmo sent messages to men, but they did not understand, and this is also so in QS and in the published Silmarillion. And again in S like BoLT, men seem to show up in the northwest very soon after they awaken in the far east.

In the Quenta which is a reworking and expansion of S, we learn that though men did not understand the messages of Ulmo, they loved the water. We also get the first date of their meeting with Felagund, the year 100. This was of course moved up later on.


Now in HoME X we have Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth, and the Tale of Adanel which gives men's account of their earlier days, their fall to worshipping Morgoth. In PoME we can learn of men's interactions with Dwarves out in the east, and they did have good relations... men farmed and dwarves made weapons and they had trade. But the the earliest days of men are still full of mystery.

In Myths Transformed, we can find some writings and even narrative where Tolkien does finally attempt to work in the Round Earth cosmology, and here we have men waking further back in time, during the journey of the elves across Midddle-earth, and after the Sun which had now been around from the beginning. Here they thought to go East from which came the Sunrise (whereas in SQ for example, the first Sunrise was from the West and men went west), but some met up with elves who advised them to go West (the direction from which elves had seen the stars appear as the glooms of Melkor where blown away) saying that if they delight in the Sun they should follow the path it takes. But this stuff was never developed beyond a few sentences.

As for the places of awakening of men. We always have them waking in East, at first we have the Vale of Sleep (Murmenalda), then in Q we have the place of their awakening called Eruman, and then in SQ it is Hildorien (in the middle region of the world, but in the 'furthest east of Middle-earth). In addition to early interaction between men and dark elves, there is always a strong elvish influence in the languages of men, though only in BoLT1 does it seem that they had no speech at all until that they learned from Nuin. We always have men falling to Morgoth somehow, though the details of this are pretty obscure, and the most detailed account since BoLT was the tale of Adanel. Always there is a group among the men who go off in a better direction than the bulk of them. Be it Ermon, the Edain, and even up in Myth's transformed there were only some among men who met with the elves and were adviced to go west. I think it can be assumed that they would have ended up being the Edain? Who can be sure what Tolkien had in mind for them, but I am left with ideas that share something in common with the BoLT version... what if the men who moved west were not included in the fall of men? May seem unlikely, but it is just a thought of mine. It really wouldn't fit much with some of the other things, especially the fall of the Numenoreans perhaps, but on the other hand, this round world cosmology was a drastic thing itself, so who knows. Another thing we always have is early interaction with and teachings of elves. Aside from the reworking attempted with the round cosmology, men always woke with the first Sun. And another major thing which always exists is that no Vala comes to men, though in the tale of Adanel we learn that Eru spoke to them himself.

Some things found in BoLT that may not have ever really been abandoned or tossed out by Tolkien, but rather left undecided or perhaps just not mentioned are that men awoke in the form of children and that their number was countless.

[Nóm]

Guess my intro was ****.

How do you think the relationship between men and elves would have been in Arda Unmarred? Would they have mingled much and stayed close together?

I'll follow up with this if anyone replies.

[Beleg]

No The Intro wasn't ****. Please repost your interesting assesment of the Vale of sleep. You summerised very well.
I didn't answer because I had this saved on my computer but I had to change the window and all the data got lost.

As for the Question in your second post I would say that,

1. In Arda Marred everyone would have been living perfectly happily. The Elves and Men wouldn't have mingled much, firstly because I am of the opinion that Men, even in Arda Marred wouldn't have been immortal. Secondly because If Eru created Elves and Men as seperate entities he must have had some purpose, and the Mingling of Elves and Men would just destroy this purpose. I believe that Elves and Men would have had their respective places in the culture. Men and Elves wouldn't have been estranged, there would be on friendly terms with eachother, [as it happened, on a lesser scale, in Beleriand for a while]. I believe too much mingling of elves and men would create innumerable problems. A marraige between a Mortal and immortal isn't just right except for rare cases. They would have stayed closed, but as seperate communities. These seperate communities would be on good terms with eachother and would often help eachother in their respective matters.
Did they spent all of their excitement and joy at the newness of the children of Iluvatar on the elves?

I believe that the Valar just didn't take enough steps, to really do something to safeguard the Younger children from the Evil of Melkor.
As for the Avari, I believe that Men and Avari would have become friends in many places, since some of the men and avari would share a common fear and problem; Morgoth. Also because in the case of Men, Avari would be the ones to teach men livinglihood and customs so they won't feel the same jealousness towards them that they felt towards the other, more distinguished and developed communities of the HIgh Elves. But It is probable that Avari would have shunned the Men too, since Men became servants of Morgoth and starting hailing him as the Lord and Melkor would have enjoyed bringing these corrupted men against the Avari. It would have been typical of him to try to create enimity between the two races, so that they may hate eachother and never join togather.
Men would have needed Avarian friendship because of their close assosiation with nature and because they could provide better guidance to the way of living that was needed to be adapted if Men wanted to survive in the perlious forests of Middleearth.

If Men would have been immortal then I still don't think they would have been the same as Elves. In the Ainulindale we are told that from the start Eru envision Men and Elves as two seperate commodities, the Eldar and the younger children. I believe that from the start he placed different traits in both Elves and Men so that these two races can never be the same.
Morgoth marred Arda, but I don't believe that he marred Arda to the extent of tempering with the qualities that were allready built in in the races. Immortalness wouldn't have cultivated the Elvish properties in Men. Men would still be different, just that they won't feel the envy, or the lust for long life that usually made them jealous of Elves, that felt in Arda.

The awakening of Men was an important event in the History of Arda. I really believe the Valar could have done more to safeguard the race of Men from the Evil of Morgoth. I believe that Men from the start were more marred then the Elves, largely because they lived in the dark of Middle-Earth that wasn't properly tended by the Valar or visited by them, instead it was filled with the Evils Morgoth created. I believe Men had to struggle more to gain the freedom from Morgoth, since Elves recieved instant guidance while Men had to travel a long way, facing many difficulties, before they reached Beleriand. I also believe that Men from the start were less wise, and it doesn't have something to do with the marring of Morgoth. But lesser wisdom doesn't make them less entitled for the help of Valar, instead the Valar should have provided them with more guidance seeing that the Men were less wise and were bound to be easily ensnarled in the Evils of Morgoth, if truth wouldn't be told to them.
I believe that Men shouldn't be heavily criticized for their falling to the lure of Morgoth, since they were more helpless, more fragile then the elves and had recieved no direct guidance except for the voice of Eru that has been mentioned in tale of Adanel. But even then on one side was the lone voice, about whose origin they knew little and on the other side were the arts of Morgoth, who came to them in incarnate form and showed them his cruel majesty and threatened them repeatedly. The crux of my arguement is that Men recieved too little guidance towards the right path to be really blamed for their falling.
The friendship between the Edain and the Elves was a small example of what the things would have been if Arda hadn't been marred.
What I would like to ask is that why was Thingol suspicious of Men? [A valid reason , not the prophetic dream ****].
Was the Curse of Melkor in effect?


Oh and Nom please repost your original post. It contained certain intresting comments and notions.

[Nóm]

I also believe men would not have been immortal in Arda Unamarred, and that they were different from elves aside from aging and falling to sickness. The reason for both of these is that the fear of men were to leave Arda and elves' were not. If men were immortal, when would they leave Arda?

I think they would have been in close association with the elves. But to speculate further on this I'd also have to first speculate on the role of the Valar in Arda Unmarred. Would they have dwelt in a place accessable to all elves and men?

The reason I think this should be answered first is that the knowledge of the Valar filtered down through the elves and to men. I think one of the major roles of the elves was the instruction of men, and not just about the Valar and Morgoth for example.... but general instruction about the arts and Arda. Now if in Arda Unmarred the Valar dwelt were men and elves could go among them, or the Valar came often among the Children, then the role of the elves as a link between the Valar (and ultimate Eru in a way) and men would not exist, at least nothing like it does in Arda Marred.

I agree that elf+human marriages would not be a common thing, only because in Arda Unmarred this would be too great a grief... unless of course the sundering of the couple was known to be temperary and therefore without grief... but for this to be the case the elves and men would have to know their fate.

Also, it is said (in Laws and Customs, I think?) that some elves believed that in Arda Unmarred there would be no cases of unrequited love. I don't really have a belief on this though. But if it is true for the elves, then it should be true for men too, and this would mean that if there exists love between a man and elf in Arda Unamarred then the union would be possible. But that's a big stretch of speculation. I guess it can only be when wondering about Arda Unamarred though? :D

As for men and Avari... they did mingle out east and men did get instruction from them. For example it is said in this chapter 'Of Men' that Ulmo sent messages and men did not understand for they did not have skill in that but it is added that they had even less so before meeting with the dark elves. But whatever the Avari tought men must have been a general closeness with nature? I do not htink it oculd have been the direct teaching of the ability to hear the messages of Ulmo, since these elves are said to have only known of the Valar as rumor and distant name. This also brings the question, why didn't Ulmo send messages to the Avari? I guess they didn't need it? Or if he did so, they were unsure of where the messages came from?

Another interesting thing said in the chapter is that men fear the Valar... but is this so different than the elves? They also feared Orome because of Morgoth, and I wonder had the elves been left alone longer would they have overcome this fear any more than men did? Had Ulmo himself showed up to speak with men, wouldn' they have overcome the fear?

But that the Valar did not do this for men, asks the question: did Iluvatar not want them to? That he spoke with men directly shows that he did have intentions to instruct them, so maybe he didn't want the Valar getting too involved with men.

But speaking of the elves and men being left alone: Remember they were alone for quite awhile before Orome did come among them. Some were taken by Melkor and he might have sent lies among them.

Was the meeting of Orome and consquent invitation to Aman really a much greater thing than men hearing the voice of Iluvatar in the early days? I don't know... but based on the outcome of these two things it would appear that what Eru did was not sufficient to save the race of men whereas what the Valar did was enough to save the elves. Some elves did go to the dark side after refusing Mandos, so maybe not all where saved but the race on the whole did not fall.

I wonder, was it ment to be (at least from the time of Melkor's fall) that men would turn to Morgoth?

I also do not believe Morgoth changed men, this had to have been Iluvatar. But why would Iluvatar change the nature of the following generations? Is it not assigning punishment to individual beings even before they exist? I'm inclined to think that from the time of the discord of Melkor that the Second born Children were doomed to fall and that Melkor was in this case a tool used to make men into the race they became. But why would Iluvatar have put men into the world as he did, rather than just put them into the world as they were to become after the fall? Did Melkor have an effect on men that Iluvatar could not have done? For example, was it not possible for Iluvatar to put beings into existance that would doubt him?

As for Thingol: Why isn't the prophectic dream **** valid?

Actually... the guy was just a bit of a jerk, wasn't he?;)

I'd ask, in this case, what purpose the dreams served or why they happend. They could have been put their by Melian? Also, that he did not allow men into his realm, may have allowed for it to exist as long as it did. If not for these dreams he might have welcomed men and this would allow for some treachery to bring the ruin of Doriath much sooner. On the other hand, if this had happend might word of it have been a warning to Maedhros? ;)

[Beleg]

I think they would have been in close association with the elves. But to speculate further on this I'd also have to first speculate on the role of the Valar in Arda Unmarred. Would they have dwelt in a place accessable to all elves and men?

Interesting Question.
Would they have called the elves to dwell with them?
I think they would have dwelt among the children, specially with the elves because,

1. since they were amazed by them and loved them.
2. this is a crazy notion but since the Valar were robbed in the raiment of Arda so they might have a greater yearning of conversing with the children of Eru; living in sort of a community.

Also, it is said (in Laws and Customs, I think?) that some elves believed that in Arda Unmarred there would be no cases of unrequited love. I don't really have a belief on this though. But if it is true for the elves, then it should be true for men too, and this would mean that if there exists love between a man and elf in Arda Unamarred then the union would be possible. But that's a big stretch of speculation. I guess it can only be when wondering about Arda Unamarred though?
I agree with the stance of these elves. I know these elves base this upon the point that in Arda unmarred their would be no grief and the unrequited love brings with itself grief and this seems plausible to me.

Not all the things that are true for elves are true for men? Here the difference between the two races in Arda Marred comes into consideration. I believe that that the case of a love between Man and Elf is unnatural, and unnaturalities won't be found in Arda Unmarred, would they?

Another interesting thing said in the chapter is that men fear the Valar... but is this so different than the elves? They also feared Orome because of Morgoth, and I wonder had the elves been left alone longer would they have overcome this fear any more than men did? Had Ulmo himself showed up to speak with men, wouldn' they have overcome the fear?
I think that it is a bit different. Why, because I think men saw the Valar in a different light, being filled with the lies of Morgoth they saw the Valar as terrible dark Lords and came to fear them. As they became more awareness, this misconception left them, but the fear, that had been fed to them by the malice of Morgoth, remained stocked away in their minds.
Yes, if Ulmo had come they may have overcome most of the fear.


But that the Valar did not do this for men, asks the question: did Iluvatar not want them to? That he spoke with men directly shows that he did have intentions to instruct them, so maybe he didn't want the Valar getting too involved with men.

In Vanyar thread, it was proved that Valar could err. I believe this was an error on Valar's part and in this case they had no consultation with Eru. I also believe that Valar consulted with Eru very seldom.

But speaking of the elves and men being left alone: Remember they were alone for quite awhile before Orome did come among them. Some were taken by Melkor and he might have sent lies among them.

Yes, but they were left considerbly less troubled then men.


Some elves did go to the dark side after refusing Mandos, so maybe not all where saved but the race on the whole did not fall.
Only the spirits, as the passage from Quendi and Eldar tells us.


Thingol was a big jerk. :)

[Nóm]

I think they would have dwelt among the children...

It is also easy for me to imagine this.

2. this is a crazy notion but since the Valar were robbed in the raiment of Arda so they might have a greater yearning of conversing with the children of Eru; living in sort of a community.
I don't think it is crazy at all. It is what happend in Valinor.

Not all the things that are true for elves are true for men?
No, of course not. But because of the reasoning of the elves that believed unrequited love would not be in Arda Unmarred, and it is the one you mention (it would be a grief) one would reason that if this idea of the elves were true, it would undoubtably be for the reason they think: grief. Therefore, in this case, it should apply to men too. Why would elves be without the grief in Arda Unmarred but not men?

I believe that that the case of a love between Man and Elf is unnatural, and unnaturalities won't be found in Arda Unmarred, would they?


I brought this up in my 'Anyone have a crush on an elf?' thread. :o

I can well see how you believe this considering that you think unrequited love would not exist in Arda Unmarred.

If on the other hand, if it would have existed in Arda Unmarred, then it may have been a natural thing for a man to love an elf.

However, even though I don't have a set belief about unrequited love in Arda Unamarred, I do believe that the elf and human unions were a result of Arda Marred.

As they became more awareness, this misconception left them, but the fear, that had been fed to them by the malice of Morgoth, remained stocked away in their minds.

But why should this fear remain. Tuor for example... in FoG he dearly frightened to death by Ulmo... but I had believed this was because of Ulmo's might. If you were wandering along the coast and Ulmo showed up, would you fear? But as you said... it could be so deep within people to fear the Valar that knowing with their mind a Vala is good, something in their spirit tells them to fear. This is a horrible consequence of the fall, I guess. But men didn't get to interact with the Valar so maybe we can never be sure.

But it is said that men are at variance with, and do not understand them. Was this only because of the shadow over them, or would this have also been so in Arda Unamarred... at variance and unable to understand the purpose of the Valar? Could it be that the reason for this is simply that Men are not bound to Arda?

I believe this was an error on Valar's part and in this case they had no consultation with Eru. I also believe that Valar consulted with Eru very seldom.

Perhaps only Manwe did, but one would think that Iluvatar would have conveyed to Manwe at least, something about men.

[Beleg]

I'd ask, in this case, what purpose the dreams served or why they happend. They could have been put their by Melian?

Possible because If I recall correctly that Melian lived in the Gardens of Lorien? And since he is the Vala of dreams and such things she might also have the ability to send prophetic dreams.

No I don't think that any harm could have come to Doriath even if Men came there. Since they would be living inside the guarded realm, the spies of Morgoth won't be effective. In fact men would get to know elves better and it might cultivate brotherhood and love between them. Also it is possible that if this was the case then Doriath wouldn't have been ransacked by the Dwarves and men might have persuaded Thingol to go to the Nirnaeth.

Did Melkor have an effect on men that Iluvatar could not have done? For example, was it not possible for Iluvatar to put beings into existance that would doubt him?

The Question here I feel is not whether Morgoth had an effect on Men or not, he had, this is a fact. But the question is what kind of effect did he have on men? Did he temper with their hroa, since it was made with the flesh of Arda, or did he even temper with their fea which came directly from Illuvator?
The first question might get a hesitent yes.
My recent theory is that the lifespans of the Men were shortened due to Arda Marred, and this was because, Morgoth was bent upon destroying things, anhiliating, If it were upto him, he would have entired wrecked arda, destroying its creatures and the land.
He tried doing so towards Man, failed but was able to lessen the lifespan of Men. The pre Myths Transformed Morgoth mightn't be able to do this, but the post Myths-Transformed Morgoth does have balls enough to initiate a change in the hroa of Men.

But why would Iluvatar have put men into the world as he did, rather than just put them into the world as they were to become after the fall?

Firstly I think that Eru designed the whole project, created the fea's with the flame imperishable, established the hroa and that was it. He created a set order and appointed the Valar as overlords, and after that he didn't intervene. THat supports my theory that Eru had nothing to do with the Valar's failure of providing help to Men. Perhaps Eru believed that the Man would pull through this stunt or that the Valar would be able to completely overwhelm Morgoth? Perhaps Eru wanted to see the resistance that men might surface against Morgoth? As the creator, he wanted to see the potency of His creatures when they were upto against a great evil?

I also do not believe Morgoth changed men, this had to have been Iluvatar

I think I should clarify here what I mean by change.
Morgoth could play with the hroa of Men, since they were of the hue of Arda and Morgoth's power was dismentled throughout Arda.
But Morgoth couldn't change the nature, the Hroa of the Men, the qualities [not phyiscal] they possessed, since they were given by Eru]


This also brings the question, why didn't Ulmo send messages to the Avari? I guess they didn't need it? Or if he did so, they were unsure of where the messages came from?


Well, it is stated no where that he didn't sent messages. It is just plausible that messages were sent, but Avari didn't understand them or just didn't accept them, more liking the free world and the then order of the things. It is also plausible that some of the Men told their avari friends about the messages.

[Beleg]

But it is said that men are at variance with, and do not understand them. Was this only because of the shadow over them, or would this have also been so in Arda Unamarred... at variance and unable to understand the purpose of the Valar? Could it be that the reason for this is simply that Men are not bound to Arda?

I believe in Arda Unmarred, Men would still not totally understand them, and would be in awe to them. Perhaps in Ardaunmmared they would understand the purpose more clearly, since then their brains won't be clouded with the lies of Morgoth, but it stands to reason in my opinion, that the men and Valar possess two very different mindframes.
No, I don't think it has anything to with Men being bound to Arda. It is all upto perception and the way you accept things. If something is told to you and the decision on it is annoynoums, then you have less doubt, but if someone questions that verdict, and even if the questions are refuted, doubt still remains in one's mind. That I believe was the case of Men. Their minds were posioned against the Valar, with due time they learned the truth, and didn't feel really threatened by the Valar, but the awe and the fear they had possessed beforehand remainth.

I do believe that the elf and human unions were a result of Arda Marred.

Agree totally. And by the way, I can remember the thread you are talking about, but I don't recall any such discussion. But since mind isn't too uptodate it is probably erring. Can you post the link? Finduilas awaits me!!!

Another interesting Question.

Do you think the Edain were physically more powerful then the Elves?

[Nóm]

Even Melian's association with Lorien aside, I trust she could have given Thingol dreams. She had foresight, so she knew stuff that was to come, and could have communicated directly with Thingol's spirit while he slept.

No I don't think that any harm could have come to Doriath even if Men came there. Since they would be living inside the guarded realm, the spies of Morgoth won't be effective.

But they wouldn't just enter and then never leave. People would be coming and going at some point, and men would surely be watching the borders, Morgoth would do his best to capture some of these, and since not all men are strong as Hurin, and since even elves can be as treacherous as Maeglin, it is a possability. I think Doriath would be less stable if a bunch of men lived there.

But why would Iluvatar have put men into the world as he did, rather than just put them into the world as they were to become after the fall?
That question was asked in the context of going with the assumption that Men had been doomed to fall.
It is also plausible that some of the Men told their avari friends about the messages.
Men liked to listen to the sound of water but did not know why. I doubt they even knew there was some kind of message.

This reminds me of when Manwe took council with Iluvatar after the discovery of the Quendi, but unfortunately we don't know what exactly he told Manwe. I'd really like to know.

[Nóm]

Okay Beleg, and whoever else wanted it: I've added that bit about BoLT to the bottum of my first post.

Thanks very much for replying to the questions I asked, Beleg.

[Lord Gil-galad]

In the beginning of the thread, it was mentioned, that if Arda unmarred, would men be immortal. I have the answer. Inreference with the book Morgoths Ring:

(its not an exact quote.. cuase the section is long...)
At the awakening of men, since the Valar did not hasten to find the second children or Eru, Morgoth founf them first. He took the lied to themand of course, as mention made them beleive that Valar were... evil.. I guess thats the word. But Eru spoke to them, and to them to leave Melkor, but out of fear of the Valar they stayed. And Eru warned them again, "that if they did not leave Melkor he would remove away they immortality." (which is almosta direct quote.. O_o)But they stayed, and when men started becomming sick and dying, they feared even more and fled Morgoth to the west, hoping to find the Valar, but they found the elves...

Anyway thats not so direct, alot more things are mention and argued, This is a section ith an argument between Finrod, and a wise man (don;t remember his name)....

Anyway, they were immortal when they were born, but it ws taken from them as punishment.....

that was in one of his writing in a notebook, put into a book by Christopher Tolkien, it maybe not be how Tolkien had wanted it in the end, but we'll never know...

Even Melian's association with Lorien aside, I trust she could have given Thingol dreams. She had foresight, so she knew stuff that was to come, and could have communicated directly with Thingol's spirit while he slept.

Ahh, I had forgotten this, know I remeber why Elrond has the gift of Foresight, he is a decendant of Thingol and Melian....