Judgement - Round 5: Tolkienology vs. Elves/Dwarves

[Aulë]

The Debate thread can be found here: http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=343001#post343001

The judges shall be:

Periaur - Aulë
Scholars - Maedhros
OiE - chrysophylax
Outcasts - Nóm
Neutral - Talierin


The poll will be open for 5 days, but will not count towards the result.

[Maedhros]

I had always been interested in the matter of the Quest and whether Frodo succeed or not in the quest. It has been my personal opinion that Frodo did indeed succeed in the Quest to destroy the Ring.

Regarding the Debate:
I think that the Guild of Tolk, did a very good job of using quotes and the book to support the point of view that Frodo failed in his quest to destroy the Ring.
Fail it would and did as far as Frodo considered alone was concerned.
At this point one would argue that it is almost impossible to rebut this side, but I think that it could be done.
There were other things that could have helped tremendously the Guild of Elves using that same letter:
Frodo was in such a position: an apparently complete trap: a person of greater native power could probably never have resisted the Ring's lure to power so long; a person of less power could not hope to resist it in the final decision. (Already Frodo had been unwilling to harm the Ring before he set out, and was incapable of surrendering it to Sam.)
I really thought that the matter of Frodo inability to destroy the Ring would have been used more. I was disappointed in that.
But at this point the 'salvation' of the world and Frodo's own 'salvation' is achieved by his previous pity and forgiveness of injury. At any point any prudent person would have told Frodo that Gollum would certainly betray him, and could rob him in the end. To 'pity' him, to forbear to kill him, was a piece of folly, or a mystical belief in the ultimate value-in-itself of pity and generosity even if disastrous in the world of time. He did rob him and injure him in the end – but by a 'grace', that last betrayal was at a precise juncture when the final evil deed was the most beneficial thing any one could have done for Frodo! By a situation created by his 'forgiveness', he was saved himself, and relieved of his burden. He was very justly accorded the highest honours – since it is clear that he & Sam never concealed the precise course of events.

The arguments used by the Guild of Elves, to me lacked guidance. They could have made a better reasoning that Frodo’s quest was to destroy the Ring, it never said anything actually that he had to throw the ring himself. The fact that it was Frodo’s finger that felt in the fire, while very ingenious, was quickly rebutted with the fëar argument.
My vote goes to the Guild of Tolkienology.

I really thought that the removal of Eriol diminished the quality of the debate. He had already made several posts in the debate, I wonder why the decision to take him out came so late.
As per the host, his posts where not taken into consideration by me.

[Nóm]

Thanks for the debate guys...

GoT argued that Frodo failed in his quest because he did not toss the Ring into the fire but claimed it for himself, alerting Sauron to its whereabouts, and that the Ring was destroyed by Gollum.

They Quote JRRT saying 'fail it did and would as far as Frodo considered alone was conerned' and just dare GoE to challenge the words of the author. I think GoE's failure to point out that the quest is called a failure only when Frodo alone was considered, was a big one and the debate could scarcely be won without such a challenge, I think. Frodo need not and really should not, be considered alone when looking at his quest, as he was not alone in it.

They also go out of the way (so it seems to me) to great length to show just how bad a thing Frodo did in claiming the Ring.

GoE then opens using the words of Elrond as a basis that if Frodo did not find a way, no one would. They reason that since the Ring was destroyed, Frodo did find that way and was therefore sucessful. But GoT simply points out that this is only the word of Elrond, not Eru himself, and GoT says this is just an opinion that Elrond himself is not sure about. GoE say what Frodo did was a 'remarkable feat' even if lucky, and they add that Frodo got out of it with his life. But GoT counters, in keeping with their own arguement for Frodo's failure, that: The Ring was not destroyed by Frodo!

GoE says it was not a failure if his aim was reached. GoT strikes back:
Do you think that by claiming himself as the weilder of the Ring, he thought the Ring would die? Wow!

That's a good point, and GoE didn't properly fight their way out of it.

GoT also says:
So it seems that you are arguing with Professor Tolkien about this one. No comments.
But, GoE's side could have stood had they really used used Tolkien's words properly. They failed to.

GoE says:
Has a person failed to reach his objective, if a third party carries it out? I think not! As long as the objective is met, it is not a failure.
Now GoE is heading in a good direction, and getting some real foundation.

GoE points out that the Ring was still on Frodo's finger, but GoT smashes any claim that this alone could be taken as success of Frodo, as Frodo's finger is not Frodo.

GoT them reminds that Sam had a huge part in aiding Frodo to Orodruin. They say Sam as as power an instrument as Frodo. GoE's big chance to point out that Tolkien says 'failure' when Frodo alone is considered... however, they fail again to do so. In fact, they never once do so in the debate.

GoT argues against GoE more with:
These quotes all show the same things: Frodo's futileness and Sam's caring. Without Sam, Frodo doesn't reach Mount Doom,
Nice chance for GoE to point out that if GoT wants to use that sort of reasoning, then without Frodo Gollum could not have did what he did.

Behold, GoE does claim this for Frodo but fails to point out that it was also in accordance with GoT's reasoning against Frodo!
but due to Frodo's involvement, and no other character had such an involvement, then the ring would not have been where it was.

GoT naturally acknowledge this but maintain that Frodo failed since it was not him who destroyed the Ring.

With regards to the different views of what Frodo's quest was, and as I deem the only real variable that could be in such a debate, both teams came out about even in my book, though GoS's had to be stronger for the fact that their case, however vulnerable, was not properly attacked.

With the arguements presented to back the claims that Frodo failed/succeeded, GoT's case is the stronger, and went with no direct counter-strikes, but had only the fact that GoE did not agree that Frodo's Quest was to put the Ring into the Fire himself and wittingly, placed against them. Whereas GoS smashed much of what GoE said in support of their claims.

So all told GoT's case was the strongest, and especially considering that GoE failed to take GoS's biggest evidence, the words of Tolkien, and look more closely at them. In fact the 'failure' of Frodo and the Failure of Frodo's quest are two different things. And as I said above, why look at this in light of Frodo alone, when he wasn't alone. I think these were the major places were GoE missed the big chance.

Vote for GoT.

[Talierin]

Well, I'm not very good at explaining myself, so I'll just keep this short.

I felt that GoT was clearly the stronger debater. GoE's only strong argument was the finger thing, and that was pretty quickly shot down with good evidence by GoT. So therefore my vote goes for GoT. :)

[Aulë]

This debate ended up being quite close, and at one stage, I rated the Elves/Dwarves as the better side. But I must congratulate Anamatar for quite an excellent post in the middle, which swayed the result in the GoT's favour.

My vote goes to the Tolkienologists.

(Keep it up Elves/Dwarves, you're getting better as the Tournament rolls on :) )

[chrysophalax]

GoT...

[Aulë]

OK, that concludes the judging.

The final result: a 5-0 win to the GoT.

Well played everyone.