Round 6: GoE/D vs. OiE

[Nóm]

I have sent a topic for Maedhros to check.

I will post it when he has okay'd it (or denied it and another has been found) and the teams for GoE/D and OiE have been submitted. Please post your teams here or PM them to me.

[Scatha]

As Guildmaster of the elves, I hereby request a reschedule for this round. Bethelarien will not be present until the 12th and my own computer is shaky at best at the moment, due to my harddrive.

Omnipotent_Elf is the only available debator. Unless he has no objection to debating mostly by himself, with me being present when my HD lets me, then this round can proceed.

[Nóm]

Sorry, but I'm not going to be able to host this.

Whoever does, if anyone, can either use this thread or not. I suppose it doesn't matter.

[Nóm]

No one else has come forth to Host so it looks like I will do it.

I am asking that both guilds let me know when they would like to do this debate. The topic I submitted has been aproved.

[omnipotent_elf]

i agree with Scatha. Anytime after the 12th would be great :D

[Chymaera]

I see nothing stopping us from starting the debate on the 12th if everyone is agreed.

I think our team will be

Chymaera
Arvedui
Ancalagon
Gothmog

this may be subject to change.

[Nóm]

Okay, I will post the topic on the 12th.

Will GoE post their team?

[Nóm]

Okay, I guess wont start the topic on the 12th. :D

GoE, where and who is your team? You said anytime after the 12th, and it is now after the 12. Please let me know as soon as you can, because a date must be agreed to.

[Bethelarien]

My apologies for our tardiness. I have been away at camp and just got back yesterday. Our team will be as follows:

Bethelarien
Scatha
Omnipotent_elf
The_Swordmaster

As usual. Let the debate begin! And, of course, thank you for your patience.

[Nóm]

GoE/D is home team... gets the choice of sides.

The debate will end exactly 7 days from the time of the opening arguement.

Was Galadriel right to offer Sam and Frodo a look into her mirror?

[Ancalagon]

Cool question Nom, good luck to all and sundry who particpate in this fine fayre of intellectual contemplation and robust retort:D

[Nóm]

Enough time has gone by that OiE can no longer be expected or obligated to have that team avialable when GoE decides to post. For this reason, I would like GoE to either post here asking, or PM me before beginning the debate, so we can be sure that OiE has a team.

If this can not happen within the next couple days, let me know since I am also dealing with judges here.

[Bethelarien]

I am very sorry about the delays. My team is having some problems, as Scatha's computer is still rather 'iffy', and I haven't gotten enough feedback to decide which side to even debate. Is the OiE still able to have a team?

[Ancalagon]

I'm still playing, though I can't speak for the rest of the team...then again, Ost-in-Edhil always fields a team, no matter what:D

[Gothmog]

I also am still ready to debate. I am sure that our team will be in place as soon as the debate starts.:)

[Chymaera]

Game on! :D

[Arvedui]

Originally posted by Chymaera
Game on! :D
Definately.
Ready when you are.:)

[FoolOfATook]

This is getting silly. The debate has already been rescheduled once, and now the GoE/D, despite whatever difficulties they are facing, need to go ahead and begin the debate. Immediately. If the GoE/D has not posted their opening statement in 48 hours, then the debate will be considered forfeited and awarded to OiE.

[Bethelarien]

The GoE will show that Galadriel was right to offer Frodo and Sam a look in her mirror.

Given that what was shown to Frodo helped him to feel the urgency of their quest, she was right.

Because of her, he saw what would happen if he should fail. Therefore, he chose to continue.

So says the GoE.

[Gothmog]

Was Galadriel right to offer Sam and Frodo a look into her mirror? No.

For this act to be right it would need if not a purpose, then at least a result that would back this idea. What purpose is there in the showing of the Mirror of Galadriel? It seems that the only purpose that there is spoken of is that Sam wanted to see some “Elven Magic”. Frodo was not advised to look in it nor was he advised against it. So then, not much of a reason there for it.

So then, what about the result of this display? Sam sees a few images that he did not understand followed by some that he most certainly did. This caused him to want to give up the quest and return home by the quickest route he could find. It was only the words of Galadriel that prevented him from doing so. Just imagine the result of the Quest if Galadriel had not been able to change Sam’s mind. Frodo saw more images that he did not understand and one that he did, the Lidless Eye of Sauron!

So then were any of these things of help to Frodo, Sam, the Quest or the Fellowship? I say not.

What Sam saw did little, I would say it did nothing to prepare him for the actual events. When he saw Frodo in the Mirror under the cliff he thought that Frodo was sleeping. When the event happened he then thought that Frodo was dead. So no preparation for him then. He was not much better prepared for when they returned home either.

As for Frodo he understood even less of what he saw and the only noticeable result of him looking was that he (and possibly Lothlorien also) was endangered when he saw the Eye! Was there any positive result that can be shown to have happened? It would seem that after Frodo saw the Eye in the Mirror then Galadriel could not then hide Nenya from him. Not much of a result.

So since there was no purpose for the showing and no positive result gained it is obvious that Galadriel was wrong to show Frodo and Sam her “magic” Mirror.

[omnipotent_elf]

Given that what was shown to Frodo helped him to feel the urgency of their quest, she was right.

as my team mate suggests, that is indeed right

It seems that the only purpose that there is spoken of is that Sam wanted to see some “Elven Magic”. Frodo was not advised to look in it nor was he advised against it

not true
if it was true that it was Sam who wanted to see "elven magic", then it would have been only Sam who looked.

Frodo looked. The purpose was to ensure that Frodo realised the grave circumstances in which his quest was to take place. Indeed, without Frodo's vision he might not have been weary enough not to trust Boromir. Indeed, after the loss of Gandlaf, Frodo was understandably "distraught", and the 'wake up' call which Galadrial offered, and Frodo openly acccepted, meant that the importance of the quest, which was lost after the loss of Gandlaf, was re-instated. Thus it served the purpose of reminding Frodo of the quest, and a right descision by Galadrial.

Sam sees a few images that he did not understand followed by some that he most certainly did

rarely would someone look into the future and see things they understand, but knowledge of what has occured might help in recovering from the setback

[Gothmog]

not true
if it was true that it was Sam who wanted to see "elven magic", then it would have been only Sam who looked.

Not True???
`And you? ' she said, turning to Sam. 'For this is what your folk would call magic. I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel. Did you not say that you wished to see Elf-magic? '
'I did,' said Sam, trembling a little between fear and curiosity. `I'll have a peep, Lady, if you're willing.'
The Fellowship of the Ring: The Mirror of Galadriel.
And following on from this.
`Do you now wish to look, Frodo? ' said the Lady Galadriel. `You did not wish to see Elf-magic and were content.'
So Sam and only Sam wanted to see “Elf-magic”.
Frodo looked. The purpose was to ensure that Frodo realised the grave circumstances in which his quest was to take place. Indeed, without Frodo's vision he might not have been weary enough not to trust Boromir. Indeed, after the loss of Gandlaf, Frodo was understandably "distraught", and the 'wake up' call which Galadrial offered, and Frodo openly acccepted, meant that the importance of the quest, which was lost after the loss of Gandlaf, was re-instated. Thus it served the purpose of reminding Frodo of the quest, and a right descision by Galadrial.
Galadriel and Frodo talking about should he look`Do you advise me to look? ' asked Frodo.
'No,' she said. `I do not counsel you one way or the other. I am not a counsellor.
Same chapter.

So She does not advise one way or the other. Does not seem to be much of a purpose more like a wan hope that some good may come of the risk.

rarely would someone look into the future and see things they understand, but knowledge of what has occured might help in recovering from the setback
It did not seem to have much help for either Sam or Frodo after the event did happen.

And suddenly he saw that he was in the picture that was revealed to him in the mirror of Galadriel in Lórien: Frodo with a pale face lying fast asleep under a great dark cliff. Or fast asleep he had thought then. `He's dead! ' he said. 'Not asleep, dead! ' And as he said it, as if the words had set the venom to its work again. it seemed to him that the hue of the face grew livid green.
And then black despair came down on him, and Sam bowed to the ground, and drew his grey hood over his head, and night came into his heart, and he knew no more. TTT: The Choices of Master Samwise.

So the Mirror did not help him there. So what did? Let us look a little further in the chapter.
'What shall I do, what shall I do? ' he said. `Did I come all this way with him for nothing? ' And then he remembered his own voice speaking words that at the time he did not understand himself, at the beginning of their journey: I have something to do before the end. I must see it through, sir, if you understand.
`But what can I do? Not leave Mr. Frodo dead, unburied on the top of the mountains, and go home? Or go on? Go on?' he repeated, and for a moment doubt and fear shook him. `Go on? Is that what I've got to do? And leave him?'
Then at last he began to weep; and going to Frodo he composed his body, and folded his cold hands upon his breast, and wrapped his cloak about him; and he laid his own sword at one side, and the staff that Faramir had given at the other.

What helped him to get over this was not anything he saw in the mirror of Galadriel but the memory of his own words from the beginning of their journey. And just how far back was it that Sam spoke these words?
It isn't to see Elves now, nor dragons, nor mountains, that I want - I don't rightly know what I want: but I have something to do before the end, and it lies ahead, not in the Shire. I must see it through, sir, if you understand me.' tFotR: Book 1: Chapter 4: A Short Cut to Mushrooms.

This was on the morning following the night the Hobbits spent with the Elves of the band of Gildor Inglorion and before they had even left the Shire. So in this case there seems to have been more help given by Gildor’s Elves than by Galadriel in preparing Sam to recover from this setback.

[Nóm]

The debate ends on the 4th, at 7:30pm GMT.

[Chymaera]

Galariel's showing of her mirror to Frodo and Sam was nothing more than another test. Frodo's attitude and manner towards Galadriel shows that he realized this, as he gently tries to learn what ever he can from the encounter.

Frodo seems to have remembered his encounter with Gildor back in the Shire.

'Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes.'

The mirror indeed did not show him anything that he did not already know and offered him no help in planning what his future course should be.

[Nóm]

The debate is over.

Yeah, I know its obvious... absurd(?) formality.

[omnipotent_elf]

please, judges dont pay any attention to this



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not true
if it was true that it was Sam who wanted to see "elven magic", then it would have been only Sam who looked.

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Not True???


i would like to apologise for this

i merely ment that if the only objective was for Sam to see elven magic, then Frodo would not have looked..