The Evil Thread

[Khôr’nagan]

Still waiting...

Well, I have changed my avatar again... I'm probably gonna try coming up with another signature, too. Got to keep things different!

But anyway, still waiting...

[Khôr’nagan]

Okay, so I'm beginning to think nothing's happening yet, so let's do something! How about we think about what sort of organization we will have within the guild, i.e. a council or something? ésse aut nôn ésse? id est dubium. Will we have one or not? If so, how will it be set up/organized? Who would be in it? Such things should be worked out sooner rather than later.

[Roilya]

i think we should have a council. similar to the council of glorfindel in the former elves guild. as for who should be in it i do not know. and yes to all that black captain has said. srry i havent been posting lately. ive been in the hospital and still will be at the end of the week. i have surgery on thursday. but ill be back on asap.

[Talierin]

Sorry guys, got busy :| I talked to WM, and he said he'd think about it.... but my guess is that he's prolly forgotten about it. I'll see what I can do.

[spirit]

sorry i have not been able to post recently! Roilya's correct, we should have a council. it'd be gd!

[Khôr’nagan]

Ack! Surgery? You're only 15 (granted, almost 16)! Why must we who yet are young and bright suffer the fate of the old and weary! Why must we suffer a fate so dreary? Alas! that our friend is in such pain! My heart is now shadowed with thunder an rain! How must we deal with such cruelty? Why must we dwell still in reality? Why oh why has this happened to thee? In good health and spirits I wish now you be! Alas! for our faithful friend in arms! Alas! alas! sound the alarms! We march now to wish well our friend! May this yet not be the end! Maetha mín! We fight, tonight! Lo! our foes are yet in sight! We march now to wish well our friend! Avom thiro ledh ni mordú! Avom firo údagor! Túriel mín! Rocho hi! Rocho an fir, a methiel amar!

Okay, so maybe a bit of an overreaction, but whatever. May you be well soon, Roilya!

Anyways, so yes, a council is also what I had in mind, but I am unsure as to who should be in it. Well, I shall give it some thought, but my nephews are coming over soon, and I must get ready. ésse aut nôn ésse? id nôn iam est dubium. quî habebimus? eheu! nôn sciô. scisne, BlackCaptain? scitisne tú ullus? eheu nam hoc! o mé miserum! o té miserum, Roilya! liberaté mé hoc inferô!

[BlackCaptain]

Woah! haha English please! I'm just in first year latin!

[Khôr’nagan]

Hehehe, yeah... sorry. (I'm only in year 2 myself). "To be or not to be? That is no longer the question. Who shall we have? Alas! I do not know. Do you know, BlackCaptain? Do any of you know? Alas for this! O poor me! O poor you, Roilya! Save me from this hell!" Well, at least that's what it should be. Of course I am more confident with Latin than I am Elvish, but still I am unsure. Anyway, quî habêbimus? Who shall we have (on the council)?

[celebdraug]

can i join the guilid please?:)

[Khôr’nagan]

Ah! Fresh blood!:rolleyes:

Yes, of course you may join, celebdraug! And welcome to The Tolkien Forum! You shall be added to the Members' List momentarily. I now welcome thee, celebdraug, to the halls of Noss en Daebar! Clan of the Shadow Dwelling! May it be that you soon become an experienced member, well-known for great depth of knowledges and lore.

[Roilya]

i thank you much khornagan. i am back home now, i had TWO surgeries!! because the first one didnt work. unfortunately the second one ended in me have my head cut open from ear to ear, so now i have staples covering my whole head. but alas i am home, with my comp, and my friends and family.

[Khôr’nagan]

YAY! *Dances*

But holy **** you got your head cut open!? Ack! Sacre Bleu! How can this be? Damn man, that's gotta suck... But anyway, It's just good that you're at home now with your family and friends. Also good that you're still alive, but that's a given. I, and I'm sure everyone here on TTF, hope you get well soon! After all, you don't want to miss too much school. :) ;)

Well, glad to have you still with us, Roilya. May Morgoth's blessing follow through all that awaits you in the years of your life yet to come. Nai hiruvalyë tielya! Nai elyë hiruva!

[Khôr’nagan]

*Talking to himself* Okay, let's think about this objectively, here... *Talking to others* Okay, since nothing's coming to mind for the who as of yet, let's consider the number and title of the council. I would think that there should be 3 Councilors at least and 9 Councilors at most. As for the title, how about that Istumeanati one? Or something else... Suggestions welcome, as usual.

[Kahmûl]

I think that there should be 4 or 5 councilors.

[Roilya]

yeah i agree, and what does istumeanati mean?

[Khôr’nagan]

ist-umea-nati "know-evil-things." Correctly, "knowers of evil things."

Okay, so let's say five (for the sake of argument). That makes BlackCaptain and I plus three others. So who else? I would say first that probably not The_Swordmaster (he's far too busy, and has only posted once anyway). I then must add that YayGollum would probably not want to be a Councilor (for though he would be most welcome, he doesn't very much like titles). So, with those excluded, who would you people recomend to be Councilors?

EDIT:

Well, I've just gone through the entire thread adding up people's posts, and though the results were hastily gathered, they're pretty much right.

Khôr'nagan — 115 (about)
BlackCaptain — 55 (about)
YayGollum — 35 (about)
Roilya — 22 (plus or minus 1 or 2)

And the rest have been anywhere from 1-7 posts each. Thus, the greatest contibutors (other than BlackCaptian and myself) have been, by far, YayGollum and Roilya. And, considering the amount of time Roilya has been a member of the guild, he has been one of the most frequent posters, and contributed much in his time here thus far. Others, such as CraigSmith, could have been great members, but have sadly left our numbers.

Okay, whoa! Each and every member here is somewhere between 13 and 18! Ack! And I was about to say we could use some prospective from another age group on the Council! Hah! So much for that. Okay, so what do we think?

[spirit]

welcome, Celebdraug!

BTW 4-5 councellors...isnt that too much? 3 might be better!

[Khôr’nagan]

Don't worry, we're only brainstorming right now.

[Arebeth]

I'd say about three for now, and maybe more when the guild grows more important.
Oh, and Istumeanati is a good name.

[Khôr’nagan]

Yes, I do see your point, people, and I am currently waiting on a response to something before I move forward. It should not take too long.

P.S. (To Arebeth) I signed the petition (14285)

[Khôr’nagan]

Okay, the answer is in: The council shall be BlackCaptain, Roilya, and I. That is, Roilya, if you are to accept. If not, well... Whatever...

So, Roilya, are you in?

[Roilya]

I accept. i havent been posting lately because the computer screen makes my head spin, but im starting to feel better. thank u for this honor, of being a council member. I wont let u down.

[Arebeth]

Good! So now we have a council?
What else do we have to decide of?

[BlackCaptain]

What's the council for anyways?

Can't we just start discussing Evil things? It's been a while since we have...:( :eek:

[Arebeth]

That could be a great idea...:rolleyes:
Anyone has a topic?

[celebdraug]

thanks to all who welcomed me!

(this is an old quote)
Originally posted by Kahmûl
I think that there should be 4 or 5 councilors.
how about 9, since there are 9 nazguls, 9 in the fellowship, and generally nine seems like a evil number? (and so is 7):D

[Khôr’nagan]

But the problem with 9 or 7 councelors is that, at the moment, there aren't that many members in the guild yet. Therefore, I would think that, as the guild grows, then we can have more councelors. But in the meantime, let us move on! An evil subject, eh? Well I'm afraid that, as I'm using a computer in my classroom at school (there's a substitute today), I'm afraid that my time is limited. But let's see... How about the origin of Orcs? Or more specifically, the Uruk-hai. I've heard that Morgoth had once invented them, but after his fall they perished, and that years later Saruman rediscovered the method of making them. How about we talk about some of these things:
..........Origin of Orcs
..........Origin of the Uruk-hai
..........Different Breeds of Orcs
..........The difference between Goblins and Orcs
..........Origin of the Beornings

Well, that's all I can think of right now. Shall think about it and get back to you later. For now, I must go. Farewell!

[Kahmûl]

Originally posted by Khôr’nagan
..........The difference between Goblins and Orcs
Yeh thats what I would like to know and a hobgoblin aswell.

[Khôr’nagan]

Well, it says here (The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth):

Hobgoblins — Evil creatures of the Ered Mithrim. Mentioned only in a passage in which Gandalf is trying to frighten Bilbo, hobgoblins were probably Orks, perhaps Uruk-hai. (H 138; '93 ed. 137; '01 ed. 138.)

Goblins — The Orcs (q.v.) (H 30, 138; '93 ed. 17, 137; '01 ed. 18, 138.)

Orcs — Evil race of Middle-Earth. Orcs were apparently bred by Melkor in Utumno early in the First Age (after the awakening of the Elves but before the Battle of the Powers), using Elves whom he had captured near Cuiviénen and corrupted in his dungeons. The Orcs increased their numbers during the Chaining of Melkor. First seen in Beleriand toward the end of the third age of the Chaining, Orcs appeared in force during the Wars of Beleriand. Ever after they were the most numerous of Melkor’s servants and soldiers. After the overthrow of Morgoth, tribes of Orcs survived in the Misty Mountains and elsewhere, and in the Second and Third Ages they were Sauron’s chief servants, although they were also used by Saruman and seem to have acted independently on occasion.
In the Third Age, Orcs began to multiply in the Misty Mountains about 1300, and by the time of the WR they were found there and in Mordor, Minas Morgul, Mirkwood, and other areas controlled by Sauron. Orcs took part in all the vast enterprises of Sauron, from the realm of Angmar in the north to the assaults on Gondor in the south. They occupied Khazad-dûm after it was deserted by the Dwarves and destroyed Balin’s colony there in 2994, waylaid travelers in the passes of the Misty Mountains, raided in Eastern Eriador and even attacked the Shire in 2747, invaded Rohan in 2800, and constantly troubled the Elves of Lórien and Mirkwood. After 2950 Saruman used Orcs in his attacks on Rohan. Although all the many conflicts between the Free Peoples and the Orcs cannot be mentioned here, two especially should be noted: the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, which destroyed a large part of the Orcs of the Misty Mountains in TA 2793-99, and the Battle of the Five Armies, which did the same thing in 2941.
Orcs were bred in mockery of Elves, and, like Elves, they were fierce warriors and did not die naturally. However, in all else they were different. Although Orcs varied from tribe to tribe, they tended to be short, squat, and bow-legged, with long arms, dark faces, squinty eyes, and long fangs. Most Orcs, except the Uruk-hai, were weakened by the sun, and all preferred the dark. They were skilled in tunneling, in making weapons, and in other practical skills; their medicines were harsh but extremely effective. Orcs wore foul, coarse clothing and heavy shoes. They hated all things of beauty and loved to kill and destroy. Orcs used many weapons, including bows, spears, stabbing swords, and long knives, but they seem to have preferred scimitar-like swords. Orcs liked blood and raw flesh and ate, among other things, Men, ponies, and their own kind. There were many different tribes of Orcs, and although there was cooperation within the tribe, between tribes Orcs hated each other as much as they did everything else. However, there was some organization among tribes, and the Orcs of the Misty Mountains had a capital, Gundabad. Cooperation was, not surprisingly, greater in wartime, when large numbers of Orcs, often under the control of Sauron, were able to work together to fight the free peoples. Nothing is said about Orkish tribal structures or female Orcs; Orcs were said to be spawned. Physical variation between tribes of Orcs (such as the tracking Orcs of III 246-49 [’93 ed. 222-225; ’01 ed. 214-16]) may have been specially bred for certain functions. The Uruk-hai (q.v.), however, were a different strain and were quite different physically, being larger and more warlike. (See also: Half-Orcs.) Orc tribes mentioned in LotR are those of Minas Morgul, the Tower of Cirith Ungol, and the Barad-dûr, Isengard, and various tribes of the misty mountains and Mirkwood. Some of these places may have had more than one tribe of Orcs, and in most of them there were probably Uruk-hai commanding lesser Orcs.
The Orkish tribes invented exceedingly crude languages for intratribal communication, and most of these languages included a few words of the Black Speech. For communication between tribes, Orcs used a debased form of Westron (See: Orkish.) Those Orcs who could write used a form of Cirth.
The names for the Orcs were similar in most languages; orch in Sindarin (pl. yrch), uruk in the Black Speech, orc in translated (and perhaps genuine) Rohirric (orc in Old English means ‘demon’), and gorgûn in the language of the Woses. The Hobbits, however, called them goblins, and the Eldar also called them the Glamhoth. (I 83, 387, 422-23; ’93 ed. 77, 354, 422; ’01 ed. 57, 333, 364-65. II 20, 30, 60-75, 96, 113; ’93 ed. 20, 30, 57-71, 90, 105; ’01 ed. 6, 16, 43-56, 76, 91. III 133, 233, 246-73, 493, 511, 514; ’93 ed. 119, 202, 222-25, 455, 472-73, 475-76; ’01 ed. 106, 201, 214-16, 441, 457-58, 460-61. H 65, 68-72, 88, 95; ’93 ed. 56, 59-64, 81, 89; ’01 ed. 56, 59-65, 81, 90. L 171. S 50, 93, 96, 260. B 50, 106, 110, 320.)

Half-Orcs — Servants of Saruman, used by him as spies and soldiers. They were seemingly the prduct of a cross betweem Men and Orcs. Although as tall as Men, they were sallow-faced and squint-eyed. The Chief's Men were half-orcs.
The half-orcs (the term is not used in LotR) were definitely not Uruk-hai. (II 96, 218; '93 ed. 90, 201; '01 ed. 76, 187. III 350, 364; '93 ed. 317, 329; '01 ed. 307, 321.)

Okay, so what do you think? It doesn't clear up too much stuff with me, I don't think, but it might help some of you out. So here you go. If you need anything else out of this book, just ask and I'll see to typing it out and posting it.

[celebdraug]

i thought you had limited time, look at your last post! ha!

..........Different Breeds of Orcs

that intresting. thay are all scummy :D

[Khôr’nagan]

That long post was hours later at my house when I did have the time. Right now I'm in school again (in directed study, where I can do whatever), but I can be on for a good 50 minutes before the class ends (it just started).

And as I do not have any of my information with me (other than The Silmarillion, which I am currently re-reading), I cannot work from anything other than memory here. Here it goes.

I recall reading that there were indeed female Orcs, but that they were specifically used for breeding, and were very few in number (compared to male Orcs). I also vaguely remember something about Uruk-hai breeding with Men (Uruk-hai, which are already combination of Orcs and Men), that they turn out in two ways: either as the half-orcs that were they "ruffians" invading the Shire during the Scouring, or as an Orc-looking thing that's mre intelligent, but I'm really not sure as to the truth in this (I might be recalling it incorrectly).

Well, that's all I've got to post as of the moment... I've actually got some homework I can do, so I'm going to go do it. I'll be posting later, when I get home and have my resources at hand.

[Roilya]

what do we discuss now, all my questions are answered. :) well except for one, were orcs and evil creatures in the song of the Ainur(sp?)?

[spirit]

I also vaguely remember something about Uruk-hai breeding with Men urghhhh! sickining image!!

were orcs and evil creatures in the song of the Ainur well, that Aniur were ment to be pure and all that, kind of like angels?

[Roilya]

ya but in the second and third song melkor became jealous and evil, so could orcs and evil things been made in the second and third songs?

[celebdraug]

Originally posted by spirit
well, that Aniur were ment to be pure and all that, kind of like angels?

Hello!
Remember some called MELKOR??

:D:D

[Khôr’nagan]

Most likely, yes. Since at least the first Orcs were from Elves only, they were not derived from Men and thus must have been bound to the Ainulinadalë, for Men and only Men were free from it. Therefore yes, they must have been made at some point during the Ainulindalë, as you have so guessed.

Okay, now I've actually got a question: When/where/how did the "Watcher (in the water)" come to be? And what was it? Certainly Ulmo wouldn't have made it, and I both Melkor and Sauron feared the water (though that does not mean they could not have corrupted see creatures). Is that how it came to be? Is there anything that ever details it's existence more so than only the book (FotR) itself?

And also something I just remembered wondering about: If the Ainur were bound to their bodies more so the longer they remained within them, how could one such as Sauron shape-shift into a Werewolf? (When battling with Huon during the quest of Beren and Lúthien for the Silmaril). Was this just some special property of the Body Sauron had at the time?

[Roilya]

Sauron isnt a Ainur, hes a Maia, and i think they can change form at will. Like (i dont have the silmarillion with me right now) but the Maia that controls the sun. how she shape shifted into her true form, that was firey and bright, that when looked upon hurt or eyes. I think it went something like that.

What do you mean by the watcher? i know there were a couple of Maia that were servants of Ulmo, and wasnt one corrupted by Melkor? i dont really know i have only read part of the silmarillion.

[Kahmûl]

Originally posted by Roilya
Sauron isnt a Ainur, hes a Maia, and i think they can change form at will.
Except when Númenor was destroyed Sauron lost his ability to change form.(I think)
And wasn't the watcher in the water something called a Kraken.

[Roilya]

let me correct myself before someone else does. it is not shapeshifting, that the maiar and the valar do, but just changing into their true form. how did sauron lose his ability to shapeshift?

[Kahmûl]

I think he lost it when Númenor sank and he got caught in it and lost his ability to become fair again.

[Roilya]

Is that in the silmarillion?

[celebdraug]

i havenot finished the whole book yet! :(

[Kahmûl]

Originally posted by Roilya
Is that in the silmarillion?
I think it tells you in the Akallabêth or I might of just heard it?

[Khôr’nagan]

Originally porsted by Roilya
Sauron isnt a Ainur, hes a Maia... Unless I am mistaken (which I may be), the Ainur included both the Greater and the Lesser, the Valar and the Maiar. Hold on, I'll check... Valaquenta
Acount of the Valar and Maiar according to the lore of the Eldar

In the beginning Eru, the One, who was in the Elvish tongue is named Ilúvatar, made the Ainur of his thought; and they made a great Music before him. In this Music the World was begun; for Ilúvatar made visible the song of the Ainur, and they beheld it as a light in the darkness. And many among them became enamoured of is beauty, and of its history which they saw beginning and unfolding as in a vision. Therefore Ilúvatar gave their vision Being, and set in amit the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the Heart of the World; and it was called Eä.

Then those of the Ainur who desired it arose and entered into the World at the beginning of Time; and it was their task to achieve it, and by their labours to fulfil the vision which they had seen. Long they laboured in the regions of Eä, which are vast beyond the thought of Elves and Men, until in the time appointed was made Arda, the Kingdom of the Earth. Then they put on the raiment of Earth and descended into it, and dwelt therein.

The Great among these spirits the Elves name the Valar, the powers of Arda, and men have often called them gods.....

With the Valar came other spirits whose being also began before the World, of the same order of the Valar but of less degree. These are the Maiar, the people of the Valar, and their servants and helpers. Well, there it is: "...of the same order..." So, unless I am misreading this, they were all Ainur. (NOTE: I have just recently started re-reading the Sil, so this passage was fresh on my mind).

But anyway, back to the topic at hand: "It is said that the longer and the more the same hröa is used, the greater is the bond of habit, and the less do the 'self-arrayed' desire to leave it. As raiment may soon cease to be adornment, and becomes (as is said in the tongues of both Elves and Men) a 'habit', a customary garb. Or if among Elves and Men it be worn to mitigate heat or cold, it soon makes the clad body less able to endure these things when naked". Pengolodh also cites the opinion that if a "spirit" (that is, one of those not embodied by creation) uses a hröa for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to operate without the hröa. The things that are most binding are those that in the Incarnate have to do with the life of the hröa itself, its sustenance and its propagation. Thus eating and drinking are binding, but not the delight in beauty of sound or form. Most binding is begetting or conceiving. - Ósanwe-kenta

That quote provides evidence against any changing of bodies, which means it indeed appears that it was shape-shifting. Now Sauron knew well, as did all in that land, the fate what was decreed for the hound of Valinor, and it came into his thought that he himself would accomplish it. Therefore he took upon himself the form of a werewolf, and made himself the mightiest that had yet walked the world; and he came forth to win the passage of the bridge. - The Silmarillion "Of Beren And Lúthien," page 211.

Now, it would certainly seem to me as if Sauron actually created for himself an entirely new body, then and there, in the time of (probably at most) only a few minutes. Because: "Therefore he took upon himself the form of a werewolf, and made himself the mightiest that had yet walked the world..." certainly doesn't seem terribly mich like shape-shifting to me. But if it indeed is creating a new form, disregarding the whole attachment thing, that would mean that he could create a whole new body in a matter of very few minutes. Can the Valar even do that? As I have rather limited resources at my disposal, I ask if anyone knows of a passage detailing the creation of new hröa, please post it! But other than that, any thoughts and/or disaggreements regarding my post?

[Roilya]

maybe all the ainur, and maiar could take any form, or since they all different attributes, taking different forms is just one of saurons traits. it says that spirits also came, not Valar.

[Khôr’nagan]

Well, without any more information, it would appear that we can do no more than hypothesize. Unfortunate, eh? But if it be a property of Sauron's body that he can shapeshift, what is it that gave him that property? Could not then others do that as well?

[Roilya]

i havent got to far in the silmarillion, but so far only sauron can shapeshift. Didnt it say after Luthien and Huan fought Sauron on the bridge that he could not change into human form anymore?

[Khôr’nagan]

Then Huan sprang. There befell the battle of Huan and Wolf-Sauron, and the houls and baying echoed in the hills, and the watchers on the walls of Ered Wethrin across the valley heard it afar and were dismayed.

But no wizardry nor spell, neither fang nor venom, nor devil's art nor beast-strength, could overthrow Huan of Valinor; and he took his foe by the throat and pinned him down. Then Sauron shifted shape again, from wolf to serpent, and from monster to his own accustomed form; but he could not elude the grip of Huan without forsaking his body utterly. Ere his foul spirit left its dark house, Lúthien came to him, and said that he should be stripped of his raiment of flesh, and his ghost be sent quaking back to Morgoth; and she said: 'There everlastingly thy naked self shall endure the torment of his scorn, pierced by his eyes, unless thou yield to me the mastery of thy tower.'

Then Sauron yielded himself, and Lúthien took mastery of the isle and all that was there; and Huan released him. And immediately he took form of a vampire, great as a dark cloud across the moon, and he fled, dripping blood from his throat upon the trees, and came to Taur-nu-Fuin, and dwelt there, filling it with horror. - The Silmarillion "Of Beren And Lúthien," page 212.

It does appear to indicate that, should Sauron have lost his body, he would have been without any body ever on. As to this I have no thought but that Morgoth may have kept him without a body, but that is only speculation. As it happened, though, he did not forsake his body, and was allowed to flee from danger. It is a bit confusing with all this shape-shifting going on. And that also leads me to another point: whoa, he shape-shifted at least four times in that event! And most certainly these changes were instantanious, meaning he could freely shift shape at any time. Very, very interesting...

[Holdwine]

hey ive been gone awhile and why the hell aren't we on the main page we are stuck with the loser guilds tell me

[Khôr’nagan]

I don't know. You'd have to ask Talierin or Webmaster.

[Roilya]

i have a question about the Silmarillion. How did Melkor fall under the power of Luthien, when he is a Valar?

[Khôr’nagan]

That's a good question. Does anyone know the answer? Because I sure as udún don't. Though if I had to speculate, I'd have to say that it had something to do with Morgoth being evil and susceptible to Lúthien, or something like that. But it's passed 2:00 AM here, so I'm too tired to look it up; I'm going to bed. Maybe I'll find something in the morning.

[Roilya]

that makes sense khor, now i recall that he lusted for her, at first sight, and fell under her spell when she sang. so does this mean that even the most powerful and dominant are susceptible to beauty?

[Holdwine]

It sure sounds like it Roilya but i HAVENT read the Silmarillion because somebody wont finish already ^ *hint* *hint*

[Khôr’nagan]

Are you two related? Interesting... And Holdwine, are you (or were you) The 3rd Maiar?

EDIT:

Yes, I see you are. I've just changed it in the Members' List, but now I've got to go... I'm in school and class just ended.

[Holdwine]

no me and roilya are not related we just live one street over from one another and yes i was the user formaly known as The 3rd Maiar

[Roilya]

Regarding our previous discussion of the Maiar, Valar, and Ainur. I have now learned i was in the wrong. Maiar and Valar are all Ainur. Why an Ainur would come to build Arda and become lesser in power than one of the same race is beyond me(The Valar having more prestige than the Maiar.) Anyone know why this is? Holdwine i will be finished by the end of the week.

[Holdwine]

Hey Khor I have an idea about the ranking system for the guild.

we could have like for the leaders(which would be you and black cap)
Melkor/Morgoth
Sauron
then for all the other member goig from highest to lowest
Witchking
Nazgul(we dont have to have all 9 untill we get more members)
Dragons
Orcs
Goblins
Easterlings(the people just entering)
And that is my idea for the ranking system

[Khôr’nagan]

Yeah, it's some good stuff there, but I have been trying to stay away from administrative stuff and just focusing on discussions, but later (perhaps soon) we could think about that.

And Roilya, I do not quite know why a Maia would be less powerful than a Vala, unless it be that they were that way since they were first created. But I do not quite know what about them, if anything, makes them less powerful, other than merely the difference in the strength of their entities.

[Holdwine]

I just thought of the ranks today during lunch.

The reason I would think that Maia are less powerful then the Valar would be that the Maia were created under the Valar and if you ceate something under somebody you don't want them to be stronger then the person there under.

[Khôr’nagan]

Yes, a very good point. One which I have missed. Indeed, you would not want your servants to be more powerful than you, because then they could quite easily turn things around and make you serve them. And along the lines of power, when makin... Oohh, I just had a thought: Each of the Ainur represented a part of Ilúvatar's mind, right? So wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that certain parts are more prominent than others? For instance, if you had a strong passion for working with your hands, the being representing that passion would be stronger (i.e. more powerful) than the being representing the part of you that dislikes working with your hands. So the various representations would be representing things with a wide variety of strengths and weaknesses, and thus the corresponding representations would be stronger or weaker accordingly. I don't know... Just a thought. But what I was going to say was that when making beings, you don't want to have them all the same strength, because then you're the only one that's stronger than anything else. But when you have a range in the strengths, you have some more powerful than others, and you can use them to control the underlings while you control them. Thus you have a kind of hierarchy, which can be very efficient.

[celebdraug]

Originally posted by Holdwine
Hey Khor I have an idea about the ranking system for the guild.

we could have like for the leaders(which would be you and black cap)
Melkor/Morgoth
Sauron
then for all the other member goig from highest to lowest
Witchking
Nazgul(we dont have to have all 9 untill we get more members)
Dragons
Orcs
Goblins
Easterlings(the people just entering)
And that is my idea for the ranking system

could i have the nazgul position?:)

[Roilya]

Each of the Ainur represented a part of Ilúvatar's mind, right? Well Iluvatar is the supreme god so, dont you think his mind would be prominent in all fields?But what I was going to say was that when making beings, you don't want to have them all the same strength, because then you're the only one that's stronger than anything else. But when you have a range in the strengths, you have some more powerful than others, and you can use them to control the underlings while you control them. Thus you have a kind of hierarchy, which can be very efficient. Weren't all the Ainur equal in power when they were with Iluvatar? my question is, why a person with great power and great honor(being in the presence of Iluvatar everyday) go to middle earth and become a part of some system where you arent as strong as you should be?

[Khôr’nagan]

Well, I honestly don't know. I'm just hypothesizing here, but I can't even begin to guess about that. I'll need to look up a few things first. Shall try to get back soon.

[omnipotent_elf]

can i join?

[laurelindorenan]

I think it would be best if the ranking system would be put on hold for a little while. At least until we get a few more members. So get joining!

[Tokei]

oooh, ooh can I join?

[celebdraug]

i dont see why not!
:)

[Roilya]

i dont know if were allowed to let people join, but i dont think there will be a problem. Now another question, Is Ungoliant (from the silmarillion) shelob? or is shelob just one of Ungoliant's many children?

[Kahmûl]

Shelob is one of Ungoliants many children.

[Roilya]

thats what i thought, but did Ungoliant ever die?

[Khôr’nagan]

Indeed yes, Shelob is one of Ungoliant's many children. But onto the matter at hand, YAY! Of course you may join. I shall add both your names to the Members' List in just a moment.

Oh and about Ungoliant dying, yeah, I do believe she did. I recall something like "It is said that she later went far south, where in utter desperation she devoured herself." I don't think that's exactly what it said, but I think it's close enough. So basically, she went south into Far Harad, and there ate herself in its vast deserts and wastes.

[Roilya]

Khor, do the council members(or any member) have the power to recruit? or only u?

[Khôr’nagan]

I guess. I don't see why not, as I myself wouldn't turn down pretty much anyone.

[celebdraug]

Then you are not that evil at heart! :)

[VioletFalcon129]

I may not SEEM evil, but i really am. i write the name of a ghost from a book on my hands. just fun a fun random thought of my evilness. i know loads of people who think i am evil. actually, my friend called me the Queen of Darkenss for about a week. i doubt there is much to dicuss about being evil. so i will not be joining you. i just wanted to give you a hand for being evil.

[Roilya]

ok that was strange, actually there is a lot to discuss about being evil. Khor can u post a definition about dragons, like u did with orcs?

[Khôr’nagan]

Sure. Here it is:

Dragons — Evil creatures of northern Middle-earth, huge, powerful, scale-covered, long-lived, greedy for treasure, and full of malice. They could bewilder anyone who looked in their eyes, and their words were cunning and seductive.

Dragons were probably first bred by Morgoth when he returned to Angband with the Silmarils. There appear to have been some three strains of dragons: the Urulóki, the winged dragons, and the cold-drakes. The first of the Urulóki, the fire-drakes of the north, was Glaurung (q.v.). They breathed fire but did not fly; they were the most common in the First Age. The winged dragons, who also breathed fire, first appeared in the Great Battle, but thereafter are not mentioned until TA 2570, when they reappeared in the Ered Mithrin and harassed the Dwarves and the Éothéod. The greatest winged dragon of the Third Age was Smaug, who took Erebor in 2770 and was slain in 2941. The cold-drakes were found only in the Ered Mithrin; they probably did not breathe fire.

Also called the Great Worms. (III 440, 459; ’93 ed. 401, 421; ’01 ed. 389, 407. H 35, 207, 212, 214; ’93 ed. 23, 215, 220, 222; ’01 ed. 23-24, 217, 222, 224. TB 53. S 116, 192-93, 242, 252. B 137, 235, 300, 312.)

~Abbreviations~

III — The Return of the King
H — The Hobbit
S — The Silmarillion, Houghton Mifflin edition.
B — The Silmarillion, Ballantine edition.
TB — The Adventures of Tom Bombadil

Anything else?

[Roilya]

not from me, thx.

[Kahmûl]

Were dragons immortal or did they ever die of old age like the dwarves?

[Holdwine]

I think Dragons died of old age but that was after thousands of years.

[Khôr’nagan]

Indeed, it says that they were "long-lived," though not ageless. Therefore they would probably grow old and die at some point, though I know not when.

[Khôr’nagan]

Wow, I can't believe it... Sadam Hussein was actually captured, and alive, too. No evil there ever was could compete with him... :rolleyes: Okay, maybe a couple hundred, but still. It's a real blessing to us evil types. Ah, if only Morgoth could come and kill all the bad people (bad, not evil). That would be great, because bad people are constantly confused with good people and stupid (or at least ignorant) people. Hitler was misguided (i.e. ignorant), Bin'ladin and Saddam are just stupid, etc. Now Caesar, he was border-line ignorant and evil. The only true evil people I can think of are Morgoth, Sauron, etc. Not too many evil people in this day and age, though.

But this all leads me to my point: Who thinks Boromir, Isildur, Gollum, and all the others influenced by the Ring were evil? Certainly not Frodo or Sam, (unless you're YayGollum, that is). Saruman was influenced directly by Sauron, so he doesn't count. Or do you think that Isildur was evil and Boromir not? (Or vice versa). If so, why? Personally, I firmly believe that Isildur was a good person throughout it all, and with a passage in Unfinished Tales to prove it (in my mind, at least).

[Roilya]

I dont think Boromir, Isildur, and smeagol were evil. you cant blame them for being corrupted. The ring could of corrupted anyone. I also believe Isildur was a good person, he was one of the faithful that fled, how couldnt he be good?

[Khôr’nagan]

I know! But the movies portray him in such an evil way, it's just totally incorrect. This is the (long) passage that I think proves he's good:

Page 271
Unfinished Tales
"The Disaster of the Gladden Fields"

"After the fall of Sauron, Isildur, the son and heir of Elendil, returned to Gondor. There he assumed the Elendilmir as King of Arnor, and proclaimed his sovereign lordship over all the Dúnedain in the North and South; for he was a man of great pride and vigour. He remained for a year in Gondor, restoring its order and defining its bounds; but the greater part of the army of Arnor returned to Eriador by the Númenórean road from the Fords of Isen to Fornost.

When he at last felt free to return to his own realm he was in haste, and he wished to go to Imladris; for he had left his wife and youngest son there, and he had moreover an urgent need for the counsel of Elrond. He therefore determined to make his way north from Osgiliath up the Vales of Anduin to Cirith Forn en Adrath, the high-climbing pass of the North, that led down to Imladris. He knew the land well, for he had journeyed there often before the War of the Last Alliance, and had marched that way to the war with men of Eastern Arnor in the company of Elrond.

It was a long journey, but the only other way, west and then north to the road-meeting in Arnor, and then east to Imladris, was far longer. As swift, maybe, for mounted men, but he had no horses fir for riding; safer, maybe, in former days, but Sauron was vanquished, and the people of the Vales had been his allies in victory. He had no fear, save for weather and weariness, but these men must endure whom need sends far abroad in Middle-Earth.

So it was, as it is told in the legends of later days, that the second year of the second year of the Third Age was waning when Isildur set forth from Osgiliath early in Ivanneth, expecting to reach Imladris in forty days, by mid-Narbeleth, ere winter drew nigh in the North. At the Eastgate of the bridge on a bright morning Meneldil bade him farewell. ‘Go now with good speed, and may the Sun of your setting out not cease to shine on you road!’

With Isildur went his three sons, Elendur, Aratan, and Ciryon, and his Guard of two hundred knights and soldiers, stern men of Arnor and war-hardened. Of their journey nothing is told until they had passed over Dagorlad, and on the northward into the wide and empty lands of Greenwood the Great. On the twentieth day, as they came within far sight of the forest crowning the highlands before them with a distant gleam of the red and gold of Ivanneth, the sky became overcast and a dark wind came up from the Sea of Rhûn laden with rain. The rain lasted for four days; so when they came to the entrance to the Vales, between Lórien and Amon Lanc, Isildur turned away from the Anduin, swollen with swift water, and went up the steep slopes on its eastern side to gain the ancient paths of the Silvan Elves that ran near the eaves of the Forest.

So it came to pass that late in the afternoon of the thirtieth day of their journey they were passing the north borders of the Gladden Fields, marching along a path that led to Thranduil’s realm, as it then was. The fair day was waning; above the distant mountains clouds were gathering, reddened by the misty sun as it drew down towards them; deeps of the valley were already in grey shadow. The Dúnedain were singing, for their day’s march was near its end, and three parts of the long road to Imladris were behind them. To their right the Forest loomed above them at the top of steep slopes running down to their path, below which the descent into the valley-bottom was gentler.

Suddenly as the sun plunged into a cloud they heard the hideous cries of Orcs, and saw them issuing from the Forest and moving down the slopes, telling their war-cries. In the dimmed light their number could only be guessed, but the Dúnedain were plainly many times, even to ten times, outnumbered. Isildur commanded a thangail to be drawn up, a shield-wall of two serried ranks that could be bent back at either end if outflanked, until at need it became a closed ring. If the land were flat or the slopes in his favour he would have formed his company into a dírnaith and charged the Orcs, hoping by the great strength of the Dúnedain and their weapons to cleave a way through them and scatter them in dismay; but that could not now be done. A shadow of foreboding fell upon his heart.

‘The vengeance of Sauron lives on, though he may be dead,’ he said to Elendur, who stood beside him. ‘There is cunning and design here! We have no hope of help; Moria and Lórien are now far behind, and Thranduil four days’ march ahead.’ ‘And we bear burdens of worth beyond all reckoning,’ said Elendur; for he was his in his father’s confidence.

The Orcs were now drawing near. Isildur turned to his esquire: ‘Ohtar,’ he said, ‘I give this now into your keeping’; and he delivered to him the great sheath and the shards of Narsil, Elendil’s sword. ‘Save it from capture by all means that you can find, and at all costs; even at the cost of being held a coward who deserted me. Take your companion with you and flee! Go! I command you!’ Then Ohtar knelt and kissed his hand, and the two young men fled down the dark valley.

If the keen-eyed Orcs marked their flight they took no heed. They halted briefly, preparing their assault. First they let fly a hail of arrows, and then suddenly with a great shout they did as Isildur would have done, and hurled a great mass of their chief warriors down the last slope against the Dúnedain, expecting to break up their shield-wall. But it stood firm. The arrows had been unavailing against the Númenórean armour. The great Men towered above the tallest Orcs, and their swords and spears far outreached the weapons of their enemies. The onslaught faltered, broke, and retreated, leaving the defenders little harmed, unshaken, behind a pile of fallen Orcs.
It seemed to Isildur that the enemy was withdrawing towards the Forest. He looked back. The red rim of the sun gleamed out from the clouds as it went down behind the mountains; night would soon be falling. He gave the orders to resume at once, but to bend their course down towards the lower and flatter ground where the Orcs would have less advantage. Maybe he believed that after their costly repulse they would give way, though their scouts might follow him during the night and watch his camp. That was the manner of Orcs, who were most often dismayed when their prey could turn and bite.

But he was mistaken. There was not only cunning in the attack, but fierce and relentless hatred. The Orcs of the Mountains were stiffened and commanded by grim servants of Barad-dúr, sent out long before to watch the passes, and though it was unknown to them the Ring, cut from his black hand two years before, was still laden with Sauron’s evil will and called to all his servants for their aid. The Dúnedain had gone scarcely a mile when the Orcs moved again. This time they did not charge, but used all their forces. They came down a wide front, which bent into a crescent and soon closed into an unbroken ring about the Dúnedain. They were silent now, and kept at a distance out of the range of the dreaded steel-bows of Númenor, though the light was fast failing, and Isildur had all too few archers for his need. He halted.

There was a pause, though the most keen-eyed among the Dúnedain said that the Orcs were moving inwards, stealthily, step by step. Elendur reached his father, who was standing dark and alone, as if lost in thought. ‘Atarinya,’ he said, ‘what of the power that would cow these foul creatures and command them to obey you? Is it then of no avail?’

‘Alas, it is not, senya. I cannot use it. I dread the pain of touching it. And I have not yet found the strength to bent is to my will. It needs one greater than I now know myself to be. My pride has fallen. It should go to the Keepers of the Three.’

At that moment came a sudden blast of horns, and the Orcs closed in on all side, flinging themselves against the Dúnedain with reckless ferocity. Night had come, and hope faded. Men were falling; for some of the greater Orcs leapt up, two at a time, and dead or alive with their weight bore down a Dúnadan, so that other strong claws could drag him out and slay him. The Orcs might pay five to one in this exchange, but it was too cheap. Ciryon was slain and Aratan mortally wounded in an attempt to rescue him.

Elendur, not yet harmed, sought Isildur. He was rallying the men on the east side where the assault was heaviest, for the Orcs still feared the Elendilmir that he bore on his brow and avoided him. Elendur touched him on the shoulder and he turned fiercely, thinking an Orc had crept behind.

‘My King,’ said Elendur, ‘Ciryon is dead and Aratan is dying. Your last counselor must advise, nay command you, as you commanded Ohtar. Go! Take your burden, and at all costs bring it to the Keepers: even at the cost of abandoning your men and me!’

‘King’s son,’ said Isildur, ‘I knew that I must do so; but I feared the pain. Nor could I go without your leave. Forgive me, and my pride that has brought you to this doom.’ Elendur kissed him. ‘Go! Go now!’ he said. Isildur turned west, and drawing up the Ring that hung in a wallet from a fine chain about his neck, he set it upon his finger with a cry of pain, and was never seen again by any eye on Middle-Earth. But the Elendilmir of the West could not be quenched, and suddenly it blazed forth red and wrathful as a burning star. Men and Orcs gave way in fear; and Isildur, drawing a hood over his head, vanished into the night.

(Continued in next post)

[Khôr’nagan]

(Continued from previous post):

Of what befell the Dúnedain only this was later known: ere long they all lay dead, save one, a young esquire stunned and buried under fallen men. So perished Elendur, who should afterwards have been King, and as all foretold that knew him, in his strength and wisdom, and his majesty without pride, one of the greatest, the fairest of the seed of Elendil, most like to is grandsire.

Now of Isildur it is told that he was in great pain and anguish of heart, but at first ran like a stag from the hounds, until he came to the bottom of the valley. There he halted, to make sure that he was not pursued; for Orcs could track a fugitive in the dark by scent, and needed no eyes. Then he went on more warily, for wide flats stretched on into the gloom before him, rough and pathless, with many traps for wandering feet.

So it was that he came at last to the banks of Anduin at the dead of night, and he was weary; for he had made a journey that the Dúnedain on such ground could have made no quicker, marching before him. He stood for a while, alone and in despair. Then in haste he cast off his armour and weapons, save a short sword at his belt, and plunged into the water. He was a man of strength and endurance that few of the Dúnedain of that age could equal, but he had little hope to gain the other shore. Before he had gone far he was forced to turn almost north against the current; and strive as he might he was ever swept down towards the tangles of the Gladden Fields. They were closer than he had thought, and even as he felt the stream slacken and had almost won across he found himself struggling among great rushes and clinging weeds. There suddenly he knew that the Ring had gone. By chance, or chance well used, it had left his hand and gone where he could never hope to find it again. At first so overwhelming was his sense of loss that he struggled no more, and would have sunk and drowned. But swift as it had come the mood passed. The pain had left him. A great burden had been taken away. His feet found the river bed, and heaving himself up out of the mud he floundered through the reeds to the marshy islet close to the western shore. There he rose up out of the water: only a mortal man, a small creature lost and abandoned in the wilds of Middle-earth. But to the night-eyed Orcs that lurked there on watch he loomed up, a monstrous shadow of fear, with a piercing eye like a star. They loosed their poisoned arrows at it, and fled. Needlessly, for Isildur unarmed was pierced through heart and throat, and without a cry he fell back into the water. No trace of his body was ever found by Elves or Men. So passed the second King of all the Dúnedain, lord of Arnor and Gondor, and in that age of the World the last."

It took so long to write that all out. It was a while ago that I did, so I just copied and pasted. I personally find this passage very intreguing.

[Roilya]

that is interesting, long, but interesting.

[celebdraug]

Khôr’nagan, can i just ask you how you define 'good' and 'bad'?

[Khôr’nagan]

Indeed, I do not want to post anything that long again, although I probably will. ;) And I really have come to identify with YayGollum. Gollum is horribly misunderstood. And I quote:

The Return of the King

And so Gollum found them hours late, when he returned, crawling and creeping down the path out of the gloom ahead. Sam sat propped against the stone, his head drooping sideways and his breathing heavy. In his lap lay Frodo’s head, drowned deep in sleep; upon his white forehead lay one of Sam’s brown hands, and the other lay upon his master’s breast. Peace was in both their faces.

Gollum looked at them. A strange expression passed over his lean hungry face. The gleam faded from his eyes, and they went dim and gray, old and tired. A spasm of pain seemed to twist him, and he turned away, peering back up towards the pass, shaking his head, as if engaged in some interior debate. Then he came back, and slowly putting out a trembling hand, very cautiously he touched Frodo’s knee—but almost the touch was a caress. For a fleeting moment, could one of the sleepers have seen him, they would have thought that they beheld an old weary hobbit, shrunken by the years that had carried him far beyond his time, beyond friends and kin, and the fields and streams of youth, an old starved pitiable thing.

But at that touch Frodo stirred and cried out softly in his sleep, and immediately Sam was wide awake. The first thing he saw was Gollum—‘pawing at master,’ as he thought.

‘Hey you!’ he said roughly. “What are you up to?’

‘Nothing, nothing,’ said Gollum softly. ‘Nice Master!’

‘I daresay,’ said Sam. ‘But where have you been to—sneaking off and sneaking back, you old villain?’

Gollum withdrew himself, and a green glint flickered under his heavy lids. Almost spider-like he looked now, crouched back on his bent limbs, with his protruding eyes. The fleeting moment had passed, beyond recall.

I think it's very sad.

[Roilya]

yes that is sad, and i never saw Gollum as an evil character. because hes not. but khor you never answered celebdraugs question.

[celebdraug]

I think he missed it because when i posted that question, we was busy replying so i think he missed the question! its no big deal....

[Roilya]

Regarding my last posts on Gollum and Isildur(wether they were good or evil). In my english class we have just learned about Transcendentalism and anti-Transcendentalism. Transcendentalism is the belief everything has a spirit, and that true knowledge can only be gained through intuiton, Nature is pure and we are connected to it(something to that effect). now anti-Transcendentalism, is the belief that everyone has a capacity for good or evil, Nature is unforgiving, and truth is elusive.

now that being said, gollum and isildur could have been considered either good or evil. but it really depends on the person who is crtiquing them. With Gollum it could go either way he led sam and frodo into a trap, but without him they wouldnt have gotten that far and we all knows what he did at the end of the RotK. well the bell just rang wil continue this post later...

[Khôr’nagan]

Ai!! Indeed, I surely was in the process of posting at that time, for I have not previously seen that post. The following are my personal definitions of good, evil, and bad:

<<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>>
Good — Characterized by the desire to be kind and generous to others, as well as having honorable morals and the basic presence of kindness at heart

Evil — Characterized by the complete lack of morality and kindness of any kind

Bad — Characterized by the partial, but not total, lack of morality and kindness
<<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>>

Well, Roilya, that is a very interesting set of concepts there. And wow, is that a long word. Anti-Transcedentalism. Eight syllables, twenty letters. Wow.

But anyway, that is an interesting concept, as my beliefs include a bit from both Transcendentalism and anti-Transcendentalism. And you say you learned this in English? Interesting...... Well, it really does depend on who you ask, but as my definitions state, I only think something or someone is evil if they are entirely without morality and kindness of any sort, and Gollum was certainly not so. Nor was Isildur or Boromir. And, as even the slightest bit of potential for good is enough for me to not consider something evil, I have a lot of trouble thinking of truly evil people (according to my definition).

[Roilya]

... Now Isildur also did great good and even greater evil, we know of all the deeds he had done before he failed to destroy the ring(great evil, even though the character wasnt evil what he did was, by accident or not).

So both characters did good and evil, both also had the capacity to do good or evil. but in the end it depends on whoever is judging these characters, definition of good and evil that counts.

Yes Khor, i did learn about these beliefs in english class, and i also my beliefs come from alittle bit of both. its really hard to just choose one to believe, for me. so i tend to just choose what i feel is best. which is another principle in transcendentalism(which i forgot to mention) follow your own heart, do not what others do but what u want to do to better your life(dont conform). but live in the same pattern always, u must try different things to get the best out of life. personally i believe in that to an extent because you have to conform sometimes, like at ur job, u have to conform to the laws and what not. but i also believe about that nature heals us and is connected to us, but i also belief nature is unforgiving. ok last one, i believe that truth is elusive. you could have your whole life figured out and know ur purpose on earth, and somethins happens and everything u thought the other day was all wrong. im done babbling now.

[Khôr’nagan]

Well, I myself would go on babbling about the finer points of my beliefs, but it's 1:00 AM (the 18th) here, I just got back from seeing The Return Of The King, and I'm tired as hell. Therefore, my babbling session must wait until the morning, or whenever I get the chance to post.

[Khôr’nagan]

Okay, 23 hours later, I can't quite recall my train of thought... Oh, yeah. Now I remember.

As far as everything having a spirit, I do not know. As I, and everyone on Earth, is tainted by the circumstances of their life’s experiences, I cannot clearly outline what is my own thoughts and what is the thoughts of others that have been imposed upon me. Certainly, however, I do not believe that true knowledge is obtained through intuition. Quite the opposite, the truth must be sought for in order to be found. Instincts may give us things we need to survive, they may tell us things that have been learned in the past through countless years of evolution, but they cannot be taken to be the truth without proof to back it up. And yes, we are connected to nature, and in a very delicate (but vastly profound) way. We are (supposedly) nature’s finest accomplishment. And yet, even though we depend on nature day by day to survive, we’re mercilessly killing it at an incredible speed. Now nature I define to be the living/active aspect of the world, including all natural phenomena and living things. We are constantly victim to natural disasters, results of some of nature’s more violent components. And yet we live on. Of course, I do not believe that nature is exactly ‘pure’, but it really all depends on how you define the word ‘pure.’ Now I also believe that everyone does, at least to a certain extent, have the capacity for good and evil, but it is an extremely ambiguous area to analyze. Some are more prone to good or evil than others, some aren’t, some are a little of both… It really depends upon the person and how they develop as their lives progress. Nature is definitely not forgiving, as it has not a mind of its own, and cares not who or what you are. And as I’ve said, the truth is very elusive.

Therefore, this is truly an uncertain matter, as whether someone or something is good or evil is indeed subject to each individual perspective. When I see Isildur, I see someone who was mighty among the mighty, great as any king, and one who accomplished many great things in his time. I do not see him as corrupted by the Ring, although he was certainly affected in a negative way. He died trying to save the Ring from the Orcs, abandoning those whom he loved, and running alone into the wild to do what needed to be done. He set out with the knowledge that he was taking the Ring to Imladris and it would there be dealt with by the Keepers of the Three. He knew it would eventually be destroyed. He was going to Imladris so that It could be destroyed. Therefore, if you think that Isildur is evil and/or corrupt, then so must you think twice of Frodo, who was more greatly influenced by the Ring than even Isildur. Isildur didn’t decide to keep the Ring when all of Middle-Earth depended upon its destruction. He thought Sauron was dead, and that the Ring’s evil was gone forever. He thought therefore “Why destroy it? It is so fair! I should keep it as compensation for my losses, and it shall be an heirloom of my house, and all my heirs shall by bound to its fate.” Obviously being influenced by the Ring there, since both he and the Ring wanted the same thing at that time (for the Ring not to be destroyed). Thus the Ring could easily influence Isildur to further refuse to destroy it, but it was no evil act in the eyes of Isildur; just a harmless little Ring, very fair, and very precious. But Frodo decided, full well knowing the plight of Middle-Earth, to claim the Ring as his own, right when he was at the Sammath Naur. He knew the Ring was filled to the brim with evil and malicious will, knew that its very existence empowered Sauron to live on and control his armies, and yet he still claimed it for his own. Isildur thought it was devoid of all evil, that it was very fair, so why bother to destroy it? Hardly what Frodo had in mind, I can assure you. But as for Gollum, he was most certainly corrupted by the Ring, and to an extraordinary extent. Bent and twisted by its malice, perverted by the mere possession of it, Gollum was very much so corrupted. And yet, Gollum had only recently (in terms of The Hobbit) begun to be physically harmed by the Ring when wearing it, while Isildur’s two measly years of possessing the Ring had already begun to cause him physical pain, as said in the passage above. So, even thought Gollum was horribly distorted and corrupted by the Ring, he had only just begun to experience after some 500 years what Isildur experienced in two. Interesting, isn’t it? But even Gollum had some good within him, even he was not totally taken over by the Ring. A Hobbit can be taken and horribly mutated, but not so easily could he be turned to evil.

[Gandalf The Grey]

Simply put, I could not resist the telling of these tidings.

Yet it all came about because of an ACCIDENTAL slip of the tongue, I assure you!

Yesterday at work, a colleague asked if I'd like to try some of his jerky. (It turned out to be "trail bologna" but that's another story.) Knowing he was a deer-hunter who'd recently made a kill, I answered yes, and then fatefully continued on to describe the different sorts of wild game meats I've tasted. Well, I tried to continue, anyways ...

"Elf jerky," I began ..... :o :p :D

Meaning of course, elk jerky!

* clears throat *

On another note, fascinating essay you've just written, Khôr’nagan,

... regarding the extent of evil regarding the three Ring-bearers --- Isildur, Gollum, and Frodo.

Well met.

* bows greetings *

[omnipotent_elf]

***this is done after talking with Khôr’nagan***
I am a member of the evil guild
I also happen to be the guildmaster of what is one of the more successfull guilds on middle earth rpg, the Renegades. Recently formerd(december 2, already 474 posts, and 4 rpgs), it is for those interested in playing essentially non-good characters. Should any of the evil guild wish, they will have automatic membership. We have a variety of threads ranging from assassins to pirates. If you wish to role play a character which is not entirely good (the more evil the better) i suggest that members join in. If so wished, you may also have free reign to create rpgs, if there is enough interest, Hope to see you there.

I apologise if this is sounding too much like advertising, but as a member of this guild, I thought that if members would like to partake in roleplaying, they can be more then free to do some in The guild of renegades.

Now, in regards to Khôr’nagan's wonderfull essay. I struggle to see gollum as evil. He was corupted yes, but that doesn't mean he was evil.

Obviously being influenced by the Ring there, since both he and the Ring wanted the same thing at that time (for the Ring not to be destroyed).

as you said, he was evil, but like others he was under a sort of slavery, to the will of the ring, It wasn't poor smeagols will, it was the ring.

it reminds me of an old saying : "good people sometimes do bad things, especially under the wills of those stronger then them". That is what I have always attributed to gollum. He is essentially not an evil being, but his will was dominated by the ring, which was evil like it's forger.

of course, this is my humble opinion. :D

[BlackCaptain]

In regards to those corrupted by the Ring, I have to say that they weren't Naturaly evil. However being corrupted by the Ring, they were corrupted to evil tendancies. I remember debating that Boromir was evil, and I hold to that, but naturaly the man wasn't evil. After being corruped to evil by the Ring, he was made evil.

[Roilya]

Boromir wasn't evil it was his father Denethor that was evil, sending Boromir to steal it. Also Boromir must have been very weak willed, he wasnt in the presence of the ring that long and he was already corrupted, thats pretty sad.

[BlackCaptain]

Boromir, at one point, after being corrupted by the Ring, WAS evil... naturaly he was fine, but when how do you define evil in lord of the rings? Pretty much just anyone who oposes the good side. And Boromir, be it for a second, even if he did repent, WAS evil at one point.

[Khôr’nagan]

Indeed, Omnipotent_elf, I do not think Gollum to be evil either. Corrupted, yes, but not evil. He was most certainly bad (by my definition, meaning partly but not totally evil), but that does not make him entirely evil. He was still a little good, as I have derived from many sources, including my quote from RotK a few posts back.

As for Boromir being evil, yes, you could say he was evil for a time. But there you could say also that Frodo was evil, Isildur was evil, Gollum was evil, Bilbo was evil, and so on. Pretty much, that definition of evil would be "having given in to the Ring," even if only for a time. But Roilya, you must remember that Boromir wasn't sent for the Ring by Denethor; he was sent to discover the meaning of a dream he and his brother had, and it just so happened that he arrived about the time the Ring did (or perhaps it was fate, but whatever). And also, Boromir was come from a country whose foes continuously attacked them and fought them, killing their soldiers and stealing their lands. His whole life he had hated the fact that those of his line, the line of the Stewards of Gondor, were not able to become king. He hated not being the highest, he never trusted Gandalf (influenced by Denethor), he grew up on the front lines, constantly seeing his people fall to ruthless enemies, and was forced to suffer defeat after defeat. His entire life was filled with evil, and he ever wanted to help Gondor in any and all ways he could. Upon being confronted by the Ring, he was faced with the sole object of his dreams: the ability to help his people, to save all Gondor, and maybe even become the High King. He thought only of the possible good things that the Ring might do, not of the eventual and utter evils it would accomplish. Within the Fellowship, he was faced with many difficulties: Their overall mission was to destroy that thing which could save him and his people, he was with Gandalf, whom he had never trusted and that the others of the Fellowship did, and also he was with Aragorn, the Heir of Elendil and Isildur, by rights the High King of Gondor, and Boromir had ever hated not being able to be the king. Therefore, all these things contributed to the easing of his will towards the Ring. And that combined with the Ring's overpowering will makes Boromir an extremely easy target for the Ring to focus upon. Thus Boromir, after his exposure to the Ring for that time, was overcome by its will and tried to take it from Frodo. Now the Ring has, as I percieve it, a great ability to magnify evil. Therefore, when someone takes possession of it, it takes what evil is in that person, i.e. evil tendencies, evil thoughts, evil wishes, evil acts, etc., and it magnifies that evil in order to consume the bearer. Thus with Boromir, there were many evil thoughts and wishes which the Ring could use against him, while the others of the Fellowship had very few. Bilbo, Frodo, and Isildur had never done any real evil, and therefore were not so much affected. But Gollum had murdered his best friend with his bare hands in order to obtain the Ring, and it used that act to consume him and torment him into corruption. Corruption, but not evil. The Ring could make things evil based upon their predispositions, such as race and strength of will. A weak-willed man would be easily made evil, while a strong-willed Vala might not be turned evil at all (I do not know if Sauron's Ring could make a being more powerful than its maker turn to evil). Men are very open to the Ring, Elves are much less so but still vulnerable, and Hobbits are about the same as Elves. Maiar may be stronger against it, depending on if they are already evil or not, and the same of Valar, but I have no actual information on either. Neither do I know of the Dwarves. As one would assume, a mix of Elves and Men (the Dúnedain) would yield a being in between the two races, and the less Elvish blood, the more susceptable to evil. Thus Isildur would take much longer to be made Evil than would Boromir, and even Gollum, regardless of any evil acts, would still have the Hobbit disposition, and thus took some 500 years to be made what took Isildur only two. And wow, I have no idea what train of thought brought me from Gollum being evil or not to here. Well, that's then end of this post.

[Roilya]

But Boromir and Denethor wanted glory from the ring even when they knew the perils it might bring.

[Khôr’nagan]

Yes, Boromir and Denethor did want glory from the Ring, but they did not truly understand just how much the Ring could do, how strong it really was; they didn't really understand how weak they really were in comparison to the Ring. They just did not know, refused to believe, that the Ring was stronger than them, and that they could never control nor wield it. They were consumed (Denethor more than Boromir) with the misguided idea that they could control the Ring, but that doesn't mean they were evil; just fooled, maybe even a little corrupted. Bilbo was corrupted by the Ring to the extent that he could not believe the Ring to be anything but a harmless little thing that just so happened to make its wearer invisible. Even Sauron was corrupted by his own arrogance to the point where he could not believe anyone would ever even consider doing it harm. Just because they both wanted glory from the Ring doesn't mean they're evil or even corrupt, not even necessarily fooled; they might just not know any better, simply ignorant of it's true power. And wouldn't you want glory from a magical Ring that (as far as you knew) could easily be bent to your will? Would that make you corrupt? Or just foolish and ignorant?

[Roilya]

ok but i think Denethor was evil look how he killed himself, and tried to kill Faramir. What was up with that? and i dont think i would take the ring, but i dont know.

[Khôr’nagan]

By 'you' I meant any person in general, not you specifically. But as for his bout of madness, that was due to him being influenced by Sauron through the Palantír. Upon looking into it, Denethor saw only that which Sauron wanted him to see, and Sauron showed him things like vast armies of Orcs, fleets of Corsiars, cities burning and people dying. These things led Denethor into a deeper despair than ever one could reach, and he was driven to a sort of madness. He wasn't evil when he was doing those things, just severely mentally disturbed.

[Khôr’nagan]

Does anyone have anything else to say? If not, then let us move on. Do any of you have any questions about something? If so, please ask... It's been quite dull around here these past few days (in the Guild).

[Roilya]

nope, i got nothing to say. i saw RotK the other day, i liked it alot, anybody else see it?

[Khôr’nagan]

Indeed I did, on opening day. I personally disliked the way they had the Dead Men of Dunharrow literally flowing into Minas Tirith. Sure, I liked how Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas just got off the boat, seemingly completely alone, then have the dead army materialize right behind them. But I really would have much preferred to have it the way it was in the books, with the Dúnedain of the North and the people of Lebennin on the ships and having the sail bearing the white tree raised as it entered into the Pelennor. They could have made it better than anything I could have ever hoped for, a scene truly worthy of praise beyond all others; but instead they made it, comparitvely speaking, suck big time. I really am disapointed in this decision of Peter Jackson.

I am also disappointed that they cut out so much from the story; sure, there's still the Extended Edition, but I really do dislike the lack of flow and consistancy displayed by this cut version of the film.

[Khôr’nagan]

Hey, I was doing some re-reading, and now I have a few questions:

1. Why didn't Sauron reoccupy Utumno after the War of Wrath? Why didn't he check it to see what creatures may have still remained in its untouched pits?

2. Sauron already had the Ring when he went to Númenor. During Ilúvatar's cataclysmic destruction of Númenor, Sauron's body was caught and destroyed along with it. How, then, could he have had the Ring after returning to Middle-Earth?

3. Does anyone know what happened to Ar-Pharazôn upon his landing in the Undying Lands?

[Khôr’nagan]

Oh, and another thing.... How could a measly hound have possibly overcome Sauron, a Maia? It doesn't seem to make much sense to me. The difference in power should have been obvious, be Huan a hound of Valinor or not.

[Roilya]

those are good questions khor, but i thought Sauron made his ring after Numenor was destroyed.

[Khôr’nagan]

So had I, but then reading what the Guide to Middle-earth had under Sauron, well...

(Q: ‘abominable’) Ainu, one of the Maiar of Aulë. Seduced by Melkor early in the First Age, Sauron became the chief of his servants and anchored the front line of his defense against the Valar and Eldar. While Melkor dwelt in Utumno, Sauron held Angband; he escaped capture during the Battle of the Powers.

When Melkor returned to Middle-earth with the Silmarils, Sauron joined him in Angband and even directed the War during Melkor’s attempt to corrupt men soon after their awakening. After the breaking of the Siege of Angband, Sauron again ventured forth to secure Melkor’s southwestern front. In 457 he took Minas Tirith on Tol Sirion, filling it with his werewolves and opening West Beleriand to the ravages of Orcs. A few years later Sauron secured Dorthonion by capturing Gorlim and using a sorcerous trick to make him betray Barahir’s outlaws. In 466 Sauron captured Finrod and Beren, overcame Finrod in a wizard’s duel, and killed Finrod and his Elves one by one in his dungeons. But retribution came soon after, when Lúthien and Huan came to rescue Beren. After Huan slew his werewolves, Sauron assumed wolf form and fought the hound. Overcome by Huan’s strength and Lúthien’s magic, Sauron surrendered the tower and fled in vampire form to Taur-nu-Fuin, dreadful but passive, for the rest of the First Age.

After the Great Battle Sauron submitted to Eönwë, but was told that he would have to return to Aman to be judged by the Valar. Although his repentance may have been sincere, his pride would not allow him to endure such humiliation, and he fled and hid himself somewhere in Middle-earth. About SA 500 he began to reveal himself again, and by 1000 he had gathered enough power to establish a stronghold in Mordor and began building the Barad-dûr. In the long millennia of the Dark Years, Sauron corrupted many races of Men. Under the name Annatar [S.: ‘gift-lord’] and wearing a fair body, he seduced many groups of Elves, notably the Gwaith-i-Mírdain of Eregion. The combination of Sauron’s skill and Noldorin creativity enriched both parties, until about 1500 they began forging the Rings of Power, by which Sauron hoped to ensnare the Free Peoples. Sauron placed much of his power in the One Ring, with which he completed the Barad-dûr. When Celembrimbor of Eregion discovered Sauron’s treachery with the Rings, Sauron resorted to force and began the War of the Elves and Sauron (1693-1700), in which he destroyed Eregion and overran Eriador, but was defeated by Gil-galad and a fleet sent to Middle-earth by Tar-Minastir of Númenor.

After this Sauron revealed himself openly, gathering in his service Orcs and other monsters of Morgoth, ruling great areas (especially in the east) by force and terror, and apparently converting his vassals to the worship of Melkor, for Sauron remained ever true in his allegiance. In his pride Sauron claimed the title King of Men, thus arousing the equal pride of the Kings of Númenor. In 3262 Ar-Pharazôn landed in Umbar with a vast force. Deserted by his armies, Sauron was forced to submit to Ar-Pharazôn, who took him back to Númenor. In fifty years Sauron played on the Númenoreans’ fear of death so effectively that the majority utterly repudiated the Valar and worshiped Melkor at Sauron’s Temple. Finally he persuaded Ar-Pharazôn to seize immortality by invading Aman. To his surprise, the Valar reacted by calling on Ilúvatar; Sauron’s body was caught in the terrible catastrophe of the destruction of Númenor, and thereafter he was unable to assume a fair-seeming form.

Sauron returned to Mordor and marshaled his forces. In 3429 he attacked Gondor, taking Minas Ithil and destroying the White Tree, a hated symbol of the Light of Aman. In 3434, however, he was defeated in the Battle of Dagorlad by the army of the Last Alliance and was besieged in the Barad-dûr. In 3441, in a final battle on the slopes of Orodruin, Sauron was overthrown by Gil-galad and Elendil, but killed both his foes. Isildur cut off his finger and took the Ring.

In the Third Age, without the One Ring which formed the base of his power, Sauron was extremely cautious. His policy was twofold: to weaken the Dúnedain kingdoms without provoking massive retaliation, and to recover the Ring. The latter policy was clouded by Sauron’s uncertainty about the fate of the Ring, which should have been destroyed by Isildur. After Sauron rose again about TA 1000, he hid his identity and was known as the Necromancer or Sorcerer of Dol Guldur. Since Mordor was guarded by Gondor, he dwelt in Dol Guldur. About 1300 he began to attack the Free Peoples, especially the Dúnedain. He sent the Lord of the Nazgûl to the North, where he founded Angmar. In the South, Sauron stirred up the Haradrim and the Easterlings against Gondor.

After the Great Plague of 1636, which may have been sent by Sauron, Gondor’s watch on Mordor was relaxed, and the Nazgûl reentered that realm and prepared it for Sauron. In 2002 the Nazgûl took Minas Ithil, thus obtaining a palantír for Sauron, which he later used to ensnare Saruman and trick Denethor II. In 2063, Gandalf went to Dol Guldur to learn the identity of the Necromancer, but Sauron fled to the East. He returned to Dol Guldur in 2460 with increased strength and renewed his plot until 2941, when he was driven out of Dol Guldur by the White Council. Sauron willingly retreated to Mordor, where he openly proclaimed himself, rebuilt the Barad-dûr, and prepared to defeat the West by overwhelming Gondor and the smaller realms of the North with his vast armies of Orcs, trolls, Haradrim, Easterlings, and creatures more foul. Even though Sauron did not have the Ring, its very existence gave him enough strength to crush the West. Gandalf and Elrond, realizing this, saw the only way to defeat Sauron was to destroy the Ring. Frodo Baggins volunteered to undertake the Quest of Mount Doom and, escaping Sauron’s servants searching for him and the Ring, destroyed the Ring in the Fire of Doom. The Nazgûl were destroyed and Sauron so weakened that he was unable to take shape ever again.

It is almost impossible to describe all the plots of Sauron, the master of deceit and treachery, and so only an outline of his policies is presented here. Among Sauron’s other accomplishments stand the invention of the Black Speech; the creation of the Nazgûl, his most powerful servants, ensnared by the Nine Rings of Men; and the breeding of the Olog-hai, and perhaps, the Uruk-hai.

After the ruin of his body in the destruction of Númenor, Sauron had the form of a Man; his skin was black and burning hot. In the Third Age he most frequently appeared as a fearsome, ever-searching Eye.

Sauron comes from the earlier Quenya form Thauron; the Sindarin name was Gorthaur the Cruel. Also called Sauron the Deceiver, the Lord of the Earth (in the Second Age), the Enemy, the Master, the Dark Power, the Dark Lord, the Lord of Mordor, the Dark Lord of Mordor, the Power of the Black Land, the Black Master, the Black One, the Lord of Barad-dûr, the Lord of the Dark Tower, and the Shadow. He was also called, attributively, the Great Eye, the Red Eye, the Eye of Barad-dûr, the Lidless Eye, and the Evil Eye. Also called the Unnamed, the Nameless, the Nameless One, the Nameless Eye, and He or Him. Also the Lord of the Rings, the Lord of the Ring, and the Ringmaker. Also, by Gollum, the Black Hand. (I 81, 82, 83, 260, 318, 328-29, 377, 471-72, 519; ’93 ed. 75-76, 77, 238, 292, 301, 344, 430, 472; ‘01 ed. 55, 56, 57, 218-19, 272, 281, 324, 408-10, 451. II 21, 43, 300-01; ’93 ed. 20, 42, 280-81; ’01 ed. 6, 27, 264-65. III 190-91, 275, 278-79, 391-93, 408, 415, 416, 417, 453-55, 456 ff., 511, 512, 515; ’93 ed. 171-72, 248, 252, 354-55, 369, 377-78, 415-16, 420 ff., 473, 476; ’01 ed. 160-62, 239-40, 242-43, 345-47, 359, 366, 367, 368, 401-02, 404 ff., 458, 461. H 37; ’93 ed. 25; ’01 ed. 26. S 32, 47, 51, 141, 155-56, 162-63, 170-72, 174-75, 267, 270-77, 280-81, 285, 286-90, 292-94, 297, 299-304, 348, 364. B 26, 47, 53, 167, 187-88, 196, 206-08, 211-12, 329-30, 333-43, 353, 355-60, 363-65, 369, 372-77, 433, 457.) I typed it up last night; I find it makes it easier to quote while allowing me to practice my typing skills.

[Khôr’nagan]

Happy New Year, everyone.

Nai ulca harya túrë ór ilúvë!
May evil have mastery over all!

[Roilya]

Yes, Happy New Year!!!! srry i havent been posting lately but my computer is acting up and everything(im at my friends house). so hope you all had a good new years party, and that the up coming year is a good one for you.

[Khôr’nagan]

Ah, I've found something else to verify that the One Ring was made before he went to Númenor.

Originally from the Appendices of The Return of the King
Second Age:

1600 Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin. He completes the Barad-dûr. Celebrimbor perceives the designs of Sauron.

3262 Sauron is taken as prisoner to Númenor; 3262-3310 Sauron seduces the king and corrupts the Númenoreans. At first I had thought that maybe this Robert Foster (Author of The Complete Guide To Middle-Earth) had it wrong, but right out of the Return Of The King Appendices, it says the same. But therefore, since it's confirmed, how did he get the One Ring out of the destruction of Númenor without a body with which to carry it? Seems quite odd to me.

[Kahmûl]

At the battle of the last alliance were the Nazgûl fighting and what happened to them when the ring was cut from Saurons hand?

[Khôr’nagan]

(Second Age) 2251 Tar-Atanamir takes the scepre. Rebellion and division of the Númenoreans begins. About this time the Nazgûl or Ringwraiths, slaves of the Nine Rings, first appear. Also from the RotK Appendices, that verifies that they were there very much early enough to have been in the Battle of the Last Alliance, considering that Sauron was overcome upon Orodruin in 3441, almost 1200 years later. However, I know of nothing that tells of them being there; indeed, I know of nothing that the Nazgûl did until the Third Age.

Oh, and here's a scary thought: Apparently, the Nazgûl in LotR did in fact possess only a small fraction, a mere shadow of there power when Sauron had the One Ring.And knowing their strength when they are comparitively weak, how truly terrible would they be if Sauron had gotten the Ring? When weak, their cries make men quail and despair; so when strong, how potent would that cry be? And if the Witch King of Angmar was truly any match whatsoever to Gandalf when weakened, how much would the tides of such a battle shift?

Indeed, it is hard to imagine how strong their onslought would be when in their full strength.

[Kahmûl]

What I would like to know is that if the Nazgûl were this powerful when Sauron had the ring then if he knew he was almost defeated then he should have used them and the battle might have gone the other way.

[Khôr’nagan]

Honostly, I do not know. I do not recall any passage telling either of the Nazgûl being in that battle or for what reason they were not there. I am afraid that I do not have the books within which it would be most likely be said (probably in Morgoth's Ring or Sauron Defeated), and otherwise have none that contain it. Should I descover these things, I shall post it. Indeed I shall try to find out by any means I have at my disposal.

[Khôr’nagan]

Well, is there anything anyone else wants to know? I'm all ears.

[Úlairi]

Well, is there anything anyone else wants to know? I'm all ears.

Yeah, I would like to join the Guild (as I am of evil origin myself!). ;)

Úlairi, túr ilúvë morë Nolmë a Ingolë! ;)

[Úlairi]

What I would like to know is that if the Nazgûl were this powerful when Sauron had the ring then if he knew he was almost defeated then he should have used them and the battle might have gone the other way.

There is no real reference to it, but from The Tale of Years under the year 3441, the Nazgûl are mentioned fading into the shadows, and this is mentioned directly after the defeat of Sauron. So, I forsee two possible options. The Nazgûl did indeed fight, but were overcome by the hosts of the Last Alliance, or at least were partially destroyed when Sauron was defeated, or they were on another errand. I would guess trying to find the Ithryn Luin, because all of a sudden Sauron would realize that his host from the East wasnn't coming! :eek: Long live Morinehtar and Rómestámo! ;)

[Khôr’nagan]

Sorry it took so long to post again but yes, úlairi, you may most certainly join, and I have already added you to the Member's List. Welcome, and thanks for the information! May Light have no hold over you or your endevours. ;)

[celebdraug]

Hi everyone!
What are your veiws on this?
Here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=14650)

[Úlairi]

Sorry it took so long to post again but yes, úlairi, you may most certainly join, and I have already added you to the Member's List. Welcome, and thanks for the information! May Light have no hold over you or your endevours. ;)

Thankyou kindly. ;)

Celebdraug, I would indeed say that Melkor was probably predestined to be the inherent evil of all, and can therefore never change, and he could never desire to, as he was not only 'fated' to be the evil side of Ëa, but being evil could actually not comprehend good itself, not understand it.

[Khôr’nagan]

Indeed. Sauron had almost repentented (supposedly) after the War of Wrath, but his pride had held him back. Really only Morgoth could never repent, as he was the basis of Evil. Sauron wasn't always evil... He was merely turned. Melkor wasn't originally evil, but drove himself into evil and remained there. I don't think he could have ever repented... Not truthfully and wholly. That is, of course, excluding the ending of the world, when everyone would supposedly understand the entirety of Ilúvatar's mind and would sing a song greater even than the Ainulindalë. But that's the result of divine influence, and doesn't count.

[Kahmûl]

Was there a palantír on top of Barad-Dûr for Sauron to look into and if not then how was he able to look into it?

[Khôr’nagan]

Supposedly yes. It was said that when he captured Minas Ithil he took its stone.

And come to think of it, definitely yes. Because Sauron had ensnared Saruman with a palantír, and Peregrin himself looked into the stone and found himself face to face with Sauron himself, and they strove against each other's wills until the point Peregrin was nearly driven mad, and was for a little while afterwards.

So yes, there was a palantír in the Barad-dûr for Sauron's use.

[Khôr’nagan]

Guild name has been changed to Noss en Lomë for purposes of being displayed among the other Major Guilds. I have been informed that Noss en Daebar was inaccurate, and Noss en Lomë was given as an alternative, meaning "Clan of Shadows."

It is now my understanding that the guild will shortly be upgraded, though exactly when I am not sure. I for one am more than glad, as this guild has lost much of its former activity, and hopefully this will serve to rejuvinate it.

[Roilya]

sorry i have not posted in so long, my computer is broken. i have a question about Gandalf, and how he appeared so weak. Wasnt he the wisest of Maia? well he cant be that weak he did beat a balrog, but in the first ages elves killed alot of balrogs. i dont know, any answers? i dont know when my comp is going to be fixed or wether we will get a new one. but i will try to post whenever i get near a working computer.

[Khôr’nagan]

Concerning the killings of Balrogs in the First Age, Tolkien changed his mind about their power at some point, possibly when writing Lord of the Rings, and made them more powerful. A number that was said to me was that, after Tolkien had rethough Balrogs, only about 7 had ever existed, instead of the apparent dozens that there were before he made the change. But he never got around to changing the Silmarilion's texts and others such, dying before he got the chance to do so.

Concerning Gandalf's power, I assume you mean in the Movie versions, and under than pretense I may say that the movies did a poor job in portraying many things (in my opinion), and this issue of Gandalf's power being but one. Gandalf, after returning as the White, was immune to any physical harm that could be inflicted by anything other than weapons wrought with certain spells or powers, and even then I'm not sure if they could hurt him. No normal sword or arrow or axe could do any harm to him, whether it would simply be repelled before striking him or burst into pieces, I am not certain, though I would think most likely the latter. He was also more in touch with his innate powers as a Maia, being less constricted by his form when he was sent back, so as to better enable him to complete his task. He seems to have feared the Witch King in the books, even after his rebirth, which might indicate that he was not immune to its weapons, but even so he was more powerful.

In the Movies, however, I distinctly recall an incident where Pippin, trying to enlist Gandalf's aid in saving Faramir, slew an Orc who was supposedly about to strike down Gandalf, and Gandalf seemed to give him an appreciative look. And yet Gandalf would not have been harmed by that blow, so either he was simply admiring the Hobbit's kill, or the movie did a bad portrayal of him and he was thankful to Pippin for having been saved. Regardless, however, the Movie did little to support the idea that he was immune to physical harm, and even gave the impression that he was succeptable to it.

Therefore, if it is the movie that you speak of Gandalf's seemingly little power, then I would advise you to ignore it. But I must also say that he only reveals his true strength when need demands him to do so. Unless he were again faced with a Balrog, I do not think that you would have seen Gandalf do anything that comes even close to his true power. Like the Ents, his strength is only roused when great circumstances arise, but when that happens, you'd best run for your Hobbit hole.

[Isthir]

Would those of the Dark decent take up arms with a wandering Student of Lore?

In otherwards, I would like to join, if that is fine with all of you.

-Isthir

[Khôr’nagan]

It most certainly is fine with us if you join. Welcome!

[Isthir]

I thank you most graciously. If there are any tasks you wish of me, simply tell me and they shall be done with all possible speed.

-Isthir

[Khôr’nagan]

That shall not likely be necessary, but the offer is appreciated nonetheless.

[Isthir]

May I ask, then, if there are any projects being worked on by the Guild at this time? For I need an outlet for my excitement and delvment into the lore of Arda, however my mind cannot, at this time, find a way to release this.

-Isthir

[Khôr’nagan]

Well, since you insist, I have been wondering how Sauron managed to escape the destruction of Númenor while having his body destroyed and yet still possess the One Ring and bring it with him to Mordor. I posed this question earlier in the thread, but it seems to have been forgotted (by myself aswell).

I do have direct evidence that the One Ring was made before Sauron was taken prisoner by Ar-Pharazôn and the Fall of Númenor, and yet Sauron's body was destroyed in Númenor's destruction. How could he have therefore escaped with the Ring and yet without any physical form? He could not have left it behind (I would think) because supposedly without the Ring he would be too diminished to have physical form and would thus have had to be wearing the Ring so long as he dwelt in his physical shell. But can a spirit carry a physical object when it itself is without physical form?

Well, there you have it... I would greatly desire this question to be answered, and since you ask, I tell. But do not kill yourself trying to solve it, I am in no rush to learn the answer.

[Isthir]

A challenging topic to write on indeed. I shall post that which I can as soon as it is accessable (and readable). I hope I don't let you down.

-Isthir

[Khôr’nagan]

The only way I would be let down would be if you were to discover that Tolkien had made a mistake. Anything else, even no information, would not be a let down.

[Isthir]

I do not believe that Tolkien made mistakes, but this is a personal view.

-Isthir

[Khôr’nagan]

Same with me, and that's why if it turned out this was a mistake, that would completely destroy my view of a perfect Tolkien. :D

[Isthir]

Ahh, makes alot more sense now. Heh.

-Isthir

[Isthir]

I plan on having the 'essay' done and posted by tomara. I shall name this essay Luumequenta-Morfëa. I, however, cannot make promises though.

-Isthir

[Khôr’nagan]

Sounds good to me.

[Isthir]

Luumequenta – Morfëa

Composed by Isthir


As it is told in the Akallabêth, the Númenóreans were banned from sailing to Aman. This Ban was broken, however, by the King Ar-Pharazôn after taking Sauron hostage and soon listening to the Maia’s dark lies. So it was that the world was changed and Sauron, along with the Island of the Númenor, fell into the Abyss. There after Sauron returned to the Barad-dûr still with The One. Here the problem comes into play; if Sauron had the Ring with him in Númenor, how did he transport it back into the East?

The question of if the One was with its master in Númenor seems a bit naïve to this author. If one takes a look at the Akallabêth in The Silmarillion, they will find this passage:

Yet Sauron was ever guileful, and it is said that among these whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Númenórean race.

This would suggest that even the great Númenóreans were easily insnared by the power of the One. More concrete evidence can be found in The Silmarillion that would raise the question of why Sauron would ever be without it.

From The Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring….And while he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of these that wore them.

Therefore, there would be no reason to abandon that rule, along with much of his own self, to go to Númenor. Yet the most undeniable evidence can be found in The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkein #211:

He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans.



With that question answered, the focus can turn to the transportation of The One back to Barad-dûr. To answer such a troubling question one must look into what Sauron truly is. As told in the Valaquenta, Sauron is a Maia who was formally of Aulë, but corrupted to join Melkor. What then is a Maia?

From The Silmarillion: Valaquenta – Of the Maiar

With the Valar came other spirits whose being began before the World, of the same order as the Valar but of lesser degree. Tese are the Maiar….

Therefore, one can safely assume that the Maiar were Ainur before coming to Eä. What does this matter?

From The Silmarillion: Ainulindalë

Now the Valar took to themselves shape and hue…..Moreover their shape comes of their knowledge of the visable World, rather than of the World itself; and they need it not, save only as we use raiment, and yet we may be naked and suffer no loss of our being.

It is known that the Valar were Ainur as is believed the Maiar were. Why then would the shedding of a visible body not hinder the Valar in effecting the World, but the reverse for the Maiar. Sauron was reduced to just a spirit after the sinking of Númenor, but as above stated the ‘spirit’ of a Maia would still be able to act upon earthly possessions. It can be speculated that since the One Ring contained much of Sauron’s own self; it too passed out of eyes’ sight (though this remains to be speculation). Though Tolkien never gave a plain answer, I shall conclude with the closest answer he gave in his own words:

From The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien: #211

Though reduced to ‘a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind’, I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended

[Nóm]

Hello,

I like to take a look at Arda from an evil point of view. I think I'd fit in an evil guild. Right now I am in the GoO but I have never been very active there... pretty much only in the debate tounrament. If you have anything for me to do here and would accept me as a member, I'd contribute and will resign from GoO... where I don't really fit in or feel a part of the guild.

[Holdwine]

I see no reason why you wouldn't be accepted. So I would like to welcome and have an evil day.

[Nóm]

There is always an evil day to be had.

Unless there is something I might busy myself with right now, I'll toss together something of an essay.... maybe a look through the eyes of despair at a conversation between Finrod and a mortal lady who had no hope for Men who had fallen under Morgoth's shadow, and she thought, were estranged forever from whatever thier original purpose had been... being doomed to whither and die without hope in a world where Morgoth was Lord... Eru & Valar forsaken.

[Isthir]

Welcome indeed Nom! I do await any works your may compose eagerly.

May the shadow smile upon you,
Isthir

[laurelindorenan]

Thank you for that essay Isthir. Very informative and, you know, shadowy. Let light never cross your creative path...

Ok, it was the best I could come up with.

[Isthir]

Thank you for that essay Isthir. Very informative and, you know, shadowy. Let light never cross your creative path...

Ok, it was the best I could come up with.
Anytime. If there are any other projects that the High and Mighty Dark Order would ask of me I would gladly accept. Though I do wonder where our two Guildmasters have gone to.

-Isthir

[Khôr’nagan]

A good question, indeed!

I apologize for my absence of late, unfortunately I am a student and over the past... (two months?)... I have been very, very, very, very busy. From a twenty-page biology research paper to a ten-page history research paper, my preoccupied mind forgot entirely of my responsibilities to this guild. I have only a short while earlier recalled this forum's existance and my responsibilities therein. But now I'm back, and do not intend to forsake this forum again.

And moving on to business, Nóm, indeed your presence would be an honor to us all and a blessing... er, curse... to the inhabitants of this most evil of guilds. Should you desire to join our ranks, rest assured that neither I nor BlackCaptain would hesitate to accept you as one of us.

As for Isthir, many thanks, indeed, for your hard work put into the composition concerning the One Ring and Númenor. It answered my questions as much as, if not more than, I could have hoped for them to be answered. Truly have you deserved praise in your accomplishment.

[Isthir]

I wish not for praise, simply doing what I can for my guild. It is good to see you back as your presence has been sorely missed. Is there anymore tasks you would have of me?

-Isthir

[Roilya]

Wow, this place has really slowed down, never was really going that fast, but anyways my computer is in working condition now. Welcome Isthir and wow you are the greatest suck up I think i have ever met. But anyways nice essay. Khor, how have you been? long time no see. Well I'm back and am ready to help get this guild going again.

[Isthir]

Suck up!??! I guess you could see it that way, I'm just kind of a humble type of person. Anyways, thank you for the welcome, I can't wait to get all of this rolling again.

-Isthir

[Roilya]

Indeed you are humble! Which is a rare trait nowadays. Guess I was just jealous of your humbleness. Anyways it is good to have you aboard. I look forward to many great posts from you.

[Isthir]

There is nothing too great about being humble, usually one gets put down for it because it does sound all suck up-ish. Ah well, it is good to be here and I look forward to all the activities that we spawn.

-Isthir

[cardanas]

Can I Join This Guild

[cardanas]

did this guild move or is it just dead