Judging, Round 5: OiE vs GoP

[Anamatar IV]

The debate can be found here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12518).

The judges are:

Neutral - ILLOTRTM---OiE
GoO - Nom---OiE
GoS - Feanorian---OiE
GoT- Anamatar---OiE
GoE/D - Beth---OiE


First let me commend both teams for a good (however short:p) debate.

In this debate, since there wasn't much countering of other posts being thrown around, the vote depended for me, really, on the opening posts. Arvedui's opener outlined clear, strong points about who else wanted Melkor's pardon and that he wasn't totally free. Aule's post was good, but it was countered by Gothmog, and Arvedui's was not. So my vote goes to OiE.

[Bethelarien]

Whew! Anamatar finally posted the thread!

A commendation to both teams for their debating. As I'm very short on time and I leave for camp on Wednesday, I'll be brief now and post a longer explanation later, either tomorrow or when I get back.

Overall, good debating on both sides. I felt the OiE was more convincing and used better logic in their arguments. My vote goes to the Ost-in-Edhil.

[Feanorian]

Well it wasnt the biggest debate ever but it seemed like it was developing quite nicely. Too bad we ran out of time.

Well OiE started out with a good first post which did however have errors. Too bad Aule used some of the same theories instead of trying to make void these. You will understand what I mean later on.
Originally posted by OiE
For Manwë was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew that in the beginning, in the thought of Ilúvatar, Melkor had been even as he; and he saw not to the depths of Melkor's heart, and did not perceive that all love had departed from him for ever

and
Originally posted by Oie
Manwë is dearest to Ilúvatar and understands most clearly his purposes. He was appointed to be, in the fullness of time, the first of all Kings: lord of the realm of Arda and ruler of all that dwell therein.

Contradict eachother in my opinion.
Simply put: It shows that while understanding most of Eru's mind he does not understand all, which gives him a definite weak spot. Now for a random quote that shows the ability of the Valar including all knowing Manwe to make mistakes:

from the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth
From the Converse of Manwe and Eru:
There were many such fëar of Elves who had died in Middle-earth gathered in the Halls of Mandos, but it was not until the death of Míriel in Aman that Manwë appealed directly to Eru for counsel. Eru 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manwë that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel


Both sides attempt to use the correctivity of Manwe and the Valar as one of their points which makes it impossible to correct one another. OiE from what I posted above and by the Periaur right here:
#4 Reason: Manwë should have known better. He may have 'understood most clearly Ilúvatar's purposes', but that does not prevent him from making wise, correct decisions such as not releasing Melkor.

Other then that I was strongly influenced by Oie's opening post and by the back up by Gothmog.

Most of Aule's posts were rendered invalid with this last paragraph by Gothmog:
All of Aulë’s points refer to what was in the future of which the Valar did not have full knowledge. They knew much of what was to come but only Ilúvatar knew all of the story of Arda. No matter what, Manwë could not go against Ilúvatar’s will. Knowing most of this he could tell that Melkor still had a part to play in the following age.

Point 1 and 2 of Aule's Gothmog did a fantastic job refuting and accomplished what I think this debate league was meant for it taught me something new(note:I am not saying the league was created to teach me something new as an individual :rollseyes: but to give all of us new views and a more indepth understanding of Tolkien's writings):
Yes it is true that the Trees of Valinor were indeed destroyed. However, this led to the fruit and flower that became the Sun and the Moon that lit far more than Valinor alone. The Sun and the Moon lit the whole of Arda and set the time for the awakening of Men. Ilúvatar had decided that Men should awake at the first rising of the Sun. So far as the Elves were concerned it had already been decided that “Great Light would be for their waning” This could not have come to be had Melkor been kept in Mandos. So despite the harm that was done the destruction of the Trees caused a far greater good which as Ilúvatar had foretold Melkor did not intend nor any of the Valar imagine.

While some may have had that view prior to this debate I did not, it was not only a great paragraph to learn from but it did a great job of making the point which it was against void.

Given that most of Aule's opening statement(/only statement) was rendered void I can confidently say that OiE takes this debate. My vote goes to OiE. I wish the debate had another week to develop further but alas we dont always get what we want. Thanks to the debators who took place. Good job to both sides.

[Nóm]

The first part of OiE's case was the arguement that because Manwe knows most Iluvatar's purpose and also because he can't comprehend evil and therefore saw not to the depths of Melkor's heart, that we was correct in releasing Melkor.
Periaur named bad things that Morgoth caused after being released as reason that Manwe was not correct to release him. OiE claimed that good came out of some of this bad stuff such as the Sun and Moon from the trees, and that Manwe was working the will of Iluvatar in releasing Melkor who was mighty of the Ainur and had great part in all the music. They also say Manwe was bound by his word and could not have put Melkor back in prison since there was no new charges against him. The Periaur didn't really attempt to counter OiE arguements, except in their claiming that Manwe should have known better which is directly against the claim that Manwe was correct since he did not understand Melkor's Evil, but is not strong enough to stand against it. Mostly Periuar presented a different view, which OiE then used in the second half of their case which also furthered one of their opening arguements, that which claims that Manwe was correct because he knew Iluvatar's purpose.

Vote for OiE

[Gothmog]

I know that it is only a formality now but is ILLOTRTM going to render a verdict on this debate so that it can be considered fully closed?

While I am posting I would like to offer my thanks to the rest of the OiE team and also my Thanks to Aule for his valiant work as opposition this debate.

[ILLOTRTM]

I strongly apologize for the fact that I haven't answered until now... sorry sorry sorry..... what happened to my subscription for this thread, anyway?

Well no use in worrying about it now...
A commendable debate indeed, from BOTH sides. I must say that have no doubts about my decision in this debate. Though there were several good points made in Aule's post, not a lot of it really struck me and made me think deeply about how wrong Manwe was to pardon Melkor, nor did they make me really question the points made by OiE. OiE definitely made a strong influence on me with that first post, and the input from Gothmog later on helped to add a sort of crescendo on that influence.
I apologize that my reasoning could not be more in depth, but I think I've made it clear that my vote also goes to OiE.

[Gothmog]

As all of the verdicts are now in I would like to thank the judges for the work they put in and to Anamatar IV for also Hosting this debate. A very good job done by all. :)