Does it best serve Tolkien?

[Ancalagon]

I was just wondering whether the debating tournament was a positive or negative aspect within the forum, particularly in relation to improving our knowledge of the Professors work?

Is the tournament detrimental to the health of fora relating specifically to the books, leading to a downturn in general questions that would normally be asked about Tolkiens work?

What do you think? Mods, if you think a poll would help, feel free to add one!

[Beleg]

I think It is a positive step. To participate properly in a debate, one has to read carefully, and that helps in understanding more fully the meaning of the text we are reading. Besides Debates bring out points, that are often not discussed or left undiscussed in general discussion.
For example, before the recent debate concerning Frodo and his fullfillment of his Quest, I had always taken for granted, that Frodo succeeded in Quest, but not my concepts regarding this matter are drastically altered, and for good.
So, for me, It is a good experience.

[Ancalagon]

But do debates tend to exclude many of the membership who do not wish to join Guilds but wish to discuss the merits of the masters work?

[Beleg]

Yes, to an extent.

[YayGollum]

Well, obviously. For this tournament thing, we had to be a member of some guild thing to play. sorry about that. How's about we have a team of people who could care less about guilds things next time? Anyways, what's stopping anyone from talking about any of the topics we've already used in the debate things?

[Celebthôl]

Only if it is a private debate, im pretty sure you Anc have opened/started public debates, these are i believe better, but the private debates usually have more learned people in them with better points...so i guess they are about as good as each otehr for different reasons....

[Ancalagon]

Nothing at all Yay, why should I be that concerned considering Ost-in-Edhil are doing so well, however I wonder if possibly the slowdown in general discussion of Tolkiens work is due to members involvement in debates. Either way, I am playing 'devils advocate' and as usual seeking considered repsonses.

[Nóm]

I think the best way to find out is to hear from those who have been involved in the debates, because I think it is a good thing as far as improving knowledge and gaining insights for some, but not for others.

One thing I have noticed is a lot of people that I do not see discussing the books much have been doing so in the tournament. Or, have been doing so more in-depth than they did outside of the tournament.

But nothing can change the fact that a discussion would be better than a debate if it is a topic people have interest in exploring. For that reason, debate (unlike discussions), debates make us think about things that might otherwise not be considered to the same extent. I recently had to debate about the contributions of Arnor and Gondor in the final defeat of Sauron, and did I end up learning a lot more about the history of those realms? No. I have little interest in them and therefore did not bother trying to learn all the details of Gondor in the Third Age. But there are some people, who if in my position would have done so, and for that the debates are good. I am lazy and do not reseach in debates, but some poeple do! I don't learn much in the way of pure knowledge from them, since only one of the debates (Round 1: GoS vs Periaur... some stuff from UT which I have not read all of) in this tournament have presented any information from the texts that I was not already aware of, but I know it is otherwise for some people. I also had a couple people contact me asking if Miriel really did come back to life and where they could read about that at, for example. They asked me this because they read a debate where I mentioned that happening. So while I personally don't get much if any knowldge from the debates, I do come up with new thoughts and for me that is what it is all about. Seeing things differently, and ocming up with new ideas. There is nothing like a new thought.


I know some people diliberately mispresent the text and take things far out of context for the purpose of winning a debate, and to me it is hardly worth that. I feel I must work with what is in the text, and I can bring myself to neglect to mention something that is relevant but would help the opposition, but to take a quote out of context is wrong to me, even if I could get away with mispresenting and win the thing. This is the ony thing I dislike about the debates.


But if this is good for the forum, depends upon how the debators view it and what they gain from it, and I do not know the answer to that.

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
Nothing at all Yay, why should I be that concerned considering Ost-in-Edhil are doing so well, however I wonder if possibly the slowdown in general discussion of Tolkiens work is due to members involvement in debates. Either way, I am playing 'devils advocate' and as usual seeking considered repsonses.

I think it has been a factor in this. I have gone out of my way lately to start topics, and that is kind of sad. But I do not think the tournament has all the blame for the recent lack of disucssion.

I had thought that this might not be such a bad thing, since the debate is kind of a trade off, but I now that I have missed the point of your thread. In my first reply I was looking at the effects this has one those who debate and discuss, but for the forum as a whole, I think it is better to have no tournament and more discussion. The question is: how much more discussion would there be if we didn't have the tournaments. I really don't know, Anc. Myself I am just glad to see folks debating who don't discuss the books much.

Quick note while on the subject of the health of the forum, and to me health = quality and amount of Tolkien disucssion: Judging by some of the things that have been posted around here, and judging (oh no I am brining up that ugly topic again) by who have the most power at TTF, I seriously don't think that many care about the Tolkien-health at TTF. Lately I have envisioned the forum going to hell, so to speak. To me it seems we are on the brink of tuning into a general discussion forum which happens to include Tolkien, or maybe I'm just paranoid. ;)



But do debates tend to exclude many of the membership who do not wish to join Guilds but wish to discuss the merits of the masters work?
Yes, there is no question about that.

[Feanorian]

quote:
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But do debates tend to exclude many of the membership who do not wish to join Guilds but wish to discuss the merits of the masters work?
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Yes, there is no question about that.

I agree with this but I agree with Yay and in fact had already thought of it as a possibility before I read his post. I think there should be a free-lance team. Anyone who wishes to debate in the next league but with no guild-attachment should be able to do so.

[Nóm]

Well people being unable to take part in the tournament because they are without guilds is one aspect, but in my opinion this is not the major one. I think the major point is that for people who do not debate in tournament (be it because they have no interest in the debate, or because they do not have a guild who is in the tournament) have book forums with less activity than they might have if not for the tournament.

Anyone who wants to debate but isn't in a guild that does, can simply join a guild. But there is no choice like that for those who don't want to be in debate but visit TTF and find the book forums slow right now. I am not sure how much the tournament has to do with this slow down, and I did ask Beorn the other day if it is common to slow down at this time of year to try to determine how much the tournament might have to do with this.

But if the tournament is the major reason for the slow down in book discussion, then it hsould puck up again when the tournament is over and those who are debating are probbaly not too bothered by it, but it is bad for those who aren't involved in the tournament.

I think the fact is that the tournament is taking away from discussion elsewhere, but how much? I don't think it is too much.

If someone wants to get serious about the amount of Tolkien discussion at TTF, I think something other than the tournament should be looked at.

And PS: I have a similar view of some guilds. In some cases I think a guild does not do things which truly require their own forum, and the contents of the guild (which are often just basic discussion threads) would be better of out in the major forums.

I wouldn't expect anyone to take my ideas too serious since they are so drastic and that just can't be good I am sure, but I think that all the Tolkien discussion guilds could be done away with, and just one forum opened for 'Tolkien Activities' or soemthing to that effect. A place where one could just post essays type things or studies they have done, and especially put together any scholarly type activites such as GoT's galery of characters, for example. Anything that is a more serious or in-depth approach to the books, but not an actual discussion. Such as group research, if such a thing can be done at TTF, and I am skeptical about it.

[Ancalagon]

Originally posted by Nóm
And PS: I have a similar view of some guilds. In some cases I think a guild does not do things which truly require their own forum, and the contents of the guild (which are often just basic discussion threads) would be better of out in the major forums. I think that is a fair point, one of which I would hold my hands up to as I have tended to start threads in Ost-in-Edhil, mainly to try and encourage people to visit and participate, especially as the Guild has seen a slowdown of its own in recent times.

[YayGollum]

Doobedoobedoo... I would call this crazy tournament thing positive. It's fun for people who like to debate. I have no idea why the people who aren't involved in the thing would whine. We're not stopping them from coming up with new topics or using the ones that are already done with. Sure, maybe all kinds of people who would normally be messing around in these sections that might be getting to be too neglected are now messing around in the tournament thing more often. sorry about that. They're still having fun. I post pretty much whereever I feel like posting. But then, I don't mess around in other people's guilds. Whoops.

[Arvedui]

Originally posted by Nóm

I had thought that this might not be such a bad thing, since the debate is kind of a trade off, but I now that I have missed the point of your thread. In my first reply I was looking at the effects this has one those who debate and discuss, but for the forum as a whole, I think it is better to have no tournament and more discussion. The question is: how much more discussion would there be if we didn't have the tournaments. I really don't know, Anc. Myself I am just glad to see folks debating who don't discuss the books much.

Quick note while on the subject of the health of the forum, and to me health = quality and amount of Tolkien disucssion: Judging by some of the things that have been posted around here, and judging (oh no I am brining up that ugly topic again) by who have the most power at TTF, I seriously don't think that many care about the Tolkien-health at TTF. Lately I have envisioned the forum going to hell, so to speak. To me it seems we are on the brink of tuning into a general discussion forum which happens to include Tolkien, or maybe I'm just paranoid. ;)



Good points as always, Nóm.
To the first part, as this has been adressen in some ways by others in this thread also, I think that there is nothing stopping people from discussing further the topics presented in the various debates. It is up to each and everyone to start new threads around here, and I have seen one or two threads that have been about topics debated in the tournament.

To the second part:
There is work going on that is solely about the Tolkien-health of TTF. So far, not much can be seen by a quick glance, but hopefully it will show in a relatively short while, especially in the area I know you think need most attention, and which I personally think is the 'heart and soul' of TTF. It will take time, because of it's massive amount of information, but hopefully, something good will come out of it. At least that is the intention...;)

Now, at last to the matter of the thread.
Personally I have a divided view about if the tournament is just positive. To speak of my personal experience, at least. Yes, I learn something new in each and every debate, but also it is time-consuming. I have used quite a lot of money on Tolkien-books the last six months, but I don't have the time to read them as quickly as I would want. Instead of exploring the HoME-series, I use time on fact-finding missions in books I have already read, or finding bits and pieces in books I haven't read. So there is a down-side to the tournament also, at least for me.

Still, it is fun to debate:)

[Ravenna]

Whilst I enjoy reading (and learning from) the various debates, I have noticed one small thing which for me tends to stifle normal discussion threads. This is when, just as a good discussion comes up, someone or other pops up with, ' there's already been a debate about this, go here'.
Now whilst this is very useful and informative, I find that often the discussion tends to peter out soon after, (unless it's a very contentious issue), presumably as people may feel that if it's been done that well before, whats the point of doing it again.

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Ravenna
Whilst I enjoy reading (and learning from) the various debates, I have noticed one small thing which for me tends to stifle normal discussion threads. This is when, just as a good discussion comes up, someone or other pops up with, ' there's already been a debate about this, go here'.
Now whilst this is very useful and informative, I find that often the discussion tends to peter out soon after, (unless it's a very contentious issue), presumably as people may feel that if it's been done that well before, whats the point of doing it again.
Why should you feel this way? :eek:
If someone provides a link to a discussion/debate - thread on the present topic, it is only to let people participating in the present discussion read other people's opinions expressed earlier. Besides, if that earlier debate/discussion was a long one, that would only mean that lots of valuable information and facts are to be found on the presently discussed topic...
In other words... Why "discover the Americas" again? ;) One can just "step on the shore" and go on exploring the "inlands" ;)

(An example - the recently opened Aldarion-Erendis - discussion-thread and the link provided there to the Aldarion-Erendis - debate held a couple of months earlier)

[YayGollum]

To that, I would say ---> Craziness. Don't force people to leave a discussion just because there already was one. Sure, toss the link in the thread. Why not? Some people might just find some information they've been looking for. But then, some people don't like having their discussions stopped. Some people just happen to have fun with discussions. It's not fun to be forced into a thread where pretty much everything has been talked about. You might run into new views on the same old things if you let them have the chance.

[Ravenna]

I'm not saying it should stop another discussion, it just appears that, on occasion, when a good debate has started, and then a link is posted, it just seems to peter out.

As to why this seems to happen, that's only my opinion, it just seems logical to me that the posted links, (and I'm not for one moment suggesting that they shouldn't be there, as I said earlier, I find them both informative and entertaining), may have somthing to do with a lack of continued discussion in the present threads.

[Ciryaher]

I think the debates are wonderful, and they're one of the best ideas that people have come up with around here!

Having judged several, I have found that they do more for me than a regular discussion does. Debate brings out friendly competition, and those competing will dig and dig for evidence, and they will reveal passages and quotes that I, personally, had never noticed before. They shed light on topics that might not normally have light shed upon them, and I think that is a good thing.

Furthermore, as my friend Hurin Thalion (no sarcasm, actually) will agree with, some of us simply don't find the regular discussions entertaining or informative, and so we seek other forms of knowledge, i.e. debates.