Debate Tournament - Round 6: Guild of the Periaur vs. Guild of Scholar's Hall [Archive]

Chymaera

08-18-2003, 03:52 PM

Okay we will start. My apologies for the delays.

Here we go.

The Doom of Mandos
'Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they ever be for ever.

'Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death's shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.'
The Silmarillion: Of the Flight of the Noldor

The Curse of Morgoth
Therefore Húrin was brought before Morgoth, for Morgoth knew that he had the friendship of the King of Gondolin; but Húrin defied him, and mocked him. Then Morgoth cursed Húrin and Morwen and their offspring, and set a doom upon them of darkness and sorrow; and taking Húrin from prison he set him in a chair of stone upon a high place of Thangorodrim. There he was bound by the power of Morgoth, and Morgoth standing beside him cursed him again; and he said ' Sit now there; and look out upon the lands where evil and despair shall come upon those whom you lovest. Thou hast dared to mock me, and to question the power of Melkor, Master of the fates of Arda. Therefore with my eyes thou shalt see, and with my ears shalt hear; and never shalt thou move from this place until all is fulfilled unto its bitter end.'

The Silmarillion: Of the Fifth Battle

Which was the most effective? That is which was most fully complete in its intent, The Doom of Mandos or The Curse of Morgoth.

The Guild of The Periaur have the choice of sides adn the debate will last 7 days from the first post.

Good Luck to both teams.

Aulë

08-18-2003, 06:14 PM

I know it's a bit late, but would it be OK with Chymaera and the Scholars if the Periaur replaced Tookish with Celebthôl in our team?

Chymaera

08-18-2003, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by Aulë
I know it's a bit late, but would it be OK with Chymaera and the Scholars if the Periaur replaced Tookish with Celebthôl in our team?

I didn't know that he was a Periaur. I have no objections.

Maedhros

08-18-2003, 07:00 PM

The same with us.

Aulë

08-19-2003, 07:12 AM

Originally posted by Chymaera
I didn't know that he was a Periaur. I have no objections.

He joined the Guild just recently.

Chymaera, could we please get some clarrification on this topic?
Posted by Niniel
Are we supposed to argue which one of the two was most effective? Both of them were effective in that they both came to fulfillment as they were spoken. But whereas the curse of Morgoth was intentionally spoken with the goal of causing suffering for Húrin's family, the Doom of Mandos was not actually a curse, but only a prediction of what was going to happen. So they are not really comparable.

Elfarmari

08-21-2003, 03:51 AM

Originally posted by Aulë
Chymaera, could we please get some clarrification on this topic?

I completely agree. The Curse of Mandos was not really a curse, per se, but a prophecy, whereas Morgoth's curse was basically Morgoth telling Hurin he was going to go after his family. I do not see them as comparable.

Chymaera

08-23-2003, 06:58 AM

Please excuse my absents. I will try to clarify my question.

Both the Curse of Morgoth and the Doom of Mandos were made with a goal in mind; both were punishments that in the end came to touch the lives of all who lived in Belariand at the end of the First Age, whether the curse and doom were intended for them or not.

Which of these two was the best at meeting and/or exceeding its intended purpose?

I hope that this helps.

FoolOfATook

08-27-2003, 03:15 AM

Are there any further issues of clarification, or has Chymaera covered it?

At any rate, this debate is overdue to begin.

baragund

08-27-2003, 04:08 AM

I believe us Scholar types are OK with the question as clarified. So let's get ready to rumble!! :)

Aulë

08-27-2003, 10:46 AM

Yes, If everything goes well, we should have a post up by tomorrow.

Niniel

08-28-2003, 09:49 AM

Alright then, there goes…
The Periaur will argue that the Curse of Morgoth was best at achieving its original purpose. To see why, we first need to see what the purpose of either was.
The Doom of Mandos goes as follows:‘Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death’s shadow. For though Eru appointed you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-Earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.’
It is not clear whether what happened to the Noldor was caused by the Doom, or that the Doom was just a prediction of what was going to happen. The Periaur hold that the Doom was only a prediction, and that everything that happened was the logical consequence of the fact that the Noldor left Aman. This means that everything that had happened was already included in the Music of the Ainur, and that the Valar only prophesied it to the Noldor. In that case the Doom was not a punishment, and it can not have an exact purpose, because everything was destined to happen the way it did, and not otherwise.
Nonetheless even though the Doom sounds to be quite clear, not the whole Doom came to be; or at least not to its fullest extent. This can be shown by analysing it sentence by sentence.
‘For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death’s shadow. For though Eru appointed you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief...’ This is undoubtedly true; the whole history of ME is one series of battles in which ever more Elves were slain; and others died by torment or by grief. However it is not entirely true, because there were also many beautiful things that were created, such as the building of Gondolin, Menegroth, and Nargothrond, which were all very beautiful to see. Also many good things happened, such as the love between Lúthien and Beren. So, although many terrible things happened, there was also beauty and love in ME. There could have been even more pain and suffering, so you can’t say that the Doom was fulfilled to its highest possible extent.
‘and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you.’ This is also true, but there are exceptions; Glorfindel was re-housed in a new body, and Finrod ‘walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees of Eldamar.’
‘And those that endure in Middle-Earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after.’ This is true, yet after the Valar had taken pity on the Noldor, many were allowed to return to Aman, and not wane in Eä.
For now we come to the second point; the Valar in the end took pity on the Noldor, and lifted the suffering. Eärendil came to the Valar and ‘pardon he asked for the Noldor and pity for their great sorrows, and mercy upon Men and Elves and succour in their need. And his prayer was granted.’ For after Eärendil’s embassy the Valar came to Middle-Earth and defeated Morgoth, let the Noldor return to Aman and gave Númenor to the Edain.
And even while the Doom lasted the Valar had not completely forgotten ME; at least not all of them. Ulmo says to Tuor: ‘But behold! In the armour of Fate there is ever a rift, and in the walls of Doom a breach, until the full-making, which ye cal, the End. So it shall be while I endure, a secret voice that gainsayeth, and a light where darkness was decreed. Therefore, though in the days of this darkness I seem to oppose the will of my brethren, the Lords of the West, that is my part among them, to which I was appointed ere the making of the World.’ This seems both to prove that the Doom of Mandos was only a prophesy and not caused by the Valar, because everything, even Ulmo’s breach of Doom, seems to be destined during the Ainulindalë, and also that the Doom was not all-embracing, since things can be done that were not in the Doom.
All in all, though the Doom of Mandos was terrible, there was also beauty and love in ME, and the Doom was not fulfilled to its highest possible extent.
Let’s now turn to the Curse of Morgoth. Morgoth says to Húrin:‘But upon all whom you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair. Wherever they go, evil shall arise. Whenever they speak, their words shall bring ill counsel. Whatsoever they do shall turn against them. They shall die without hope, cursing both life and death.’ The purpose of the Curse was thus to cause as much suffering as possible for the family of Húrin.
It can’t be doubted that everything Morgoth said came true. For Túrin, Nienor and Morwen there was no love, no beauty, and no hope in anything they did. They had no moments of true happiness; or when they had, they turned out to be wrong, such as the marriage of Túrin and Nienor. There was no pity to be expected from Morgoth, and no escaping from the Curse such as Tuor had done with the Doom of Mandos. The only reason why the Curse of Morgoth was not so great in its extent was that it was only aimed at Húrin’s family, while the Doom of Mandos touched upon the whole of ME. But as far as the Curse went, it was fulfilled to its highest extent.
Therefore the Periaur say that the Curse of Morgoth was best at meeting its intended purpose, and we challenge you to prove us wrong!

Maedhros

08-29-2003, 07:27 AM

The Topic is:
Which was the most effective? That is which was most fully complete in its intent, The Doom of Mandos or The Curse of Morgoth.
Posted by GoP
It is not clear whether what happened to the Noldor was caused by the Doom, or that the Doom was just a prediction of what was going to happen. The Periaur hold that the Doom was only a prediction, and that everything that happened was the logical consequence of the fact that the Noldor left Aman. This means that everything that had happened was already included in the Music of the Ainur, and that the Valar only prophesied it to the Noldor.
This is of course very weird. You see in the Music of the Ainur, the Ainur were only involved in the first two themes. In the third theme, when Ilúvatar made his children the Ainur had no part. To say that the Ainur would know everything that would happen with the Elves and Men in ME without them being actually involved in the that theme cannot be right. Simple. There is only one being who knows everything and that is Ilúvatar.
Posted by GoP
However it is not entirely true, because there were also many beautiful things that were created, such as the building of Gondolin, Menegroth, and Nargothrond, which were all very beautiful to see.
Menegroth of course it's the work of Telerin elves with a maiar. It was at first fully independent of the Doom of Mandos.
The Doom of Mandos states:
'Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever.
'Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death's shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.'

Where in all of that say that the Ñoldor wouldn't create beautiful things in ME? Where does it says good things couldn't happen in ME? Where does it says that there would be no love in Me because of the Curse? It's all in there, and it doesn't say it.
Posted by GoP
This is also true, but there are exceptions; Glorfindel was re-housed in a new body, and Finrod ‘walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees of Eldamar.’

Hehe. All elves are rehoused sooner or later. It depends on their deeds. In the case of Glorfindel and Finrod, you have to take into account their deeds.
Glorfindel is the elf of Gondolin who fought with a balrog in order to help Tuor and Co escape and then go to the havens of Sirion. He sacrificed himself for others. But in reality, JRRT had used the name Glorfindel in LOTR, and he had forgotten that he had used in the Tale of the Fall of Gondolin, so instead of changing one name, he merely made him re-house and be the same one.
Finrod is of course, the wisest of all the exiled Ñoldor. It was he who first encountered Men and instructed them, and it was he who gave his life to save Beren. And he took no part in the kinslaying of Alqualondë.
Posted by GoP
This is true, yet after the Valar had taken pity on the Noldor, many were allowed to return to Aman, and not wane in Eä.
So, if they were left on ME, they would have waned like Mandos says. I agree with that.
Posted by GoP
This seems both to prove that the Doom of Mandos was only a prophesy and not caused by the Valar, because everything, even Ulmo’s breach of Doom, seems to be destined during the Ainulindalë, and also that the Doom was not all-embracing, since things can be done that were not in the Doom.
I think there is the matter of scope. The doom focuses mainly on the House of Fëanor, and those who followed them. At that point, it would the other Ñoldorian princes. When they arrived in ME, more were lured into it, including the Edain, who aided the Ñoldor in the War against Morgoth. Notice that when the Valar arrived with their hosts for the War of Wrath, all of the Ñoldorian Kingdoms were extinct: Gondolin, Nargothrond, Fingon's and those of the sons of Fëanor. All of them had suffered greatly, as the Doom foretold. The Edain, who aided the Ñoldor, suffered greatly too. The Doom never states that ME would become the sole domain of Morgoth Bauglir. Notice that the doom does not says that all the Ñoldor or Men would be anihilated, just that they would suffer greatly from treason, and so it was. The Ñoldor lost the Nirnaeth because of the treason of Ulfang and his sons. Gondolin was destroyed by treason. The remants of Doriath and the Havens of Sirion were ravaged by the sons of Fëanor and in all of their tries, they never obtained the Silmaril.
It was only after the Valar had forsaken the Curse of Mandos that ME was saved. Interesting that it was then that Maeðros and Maglor were able to obtain the Silmarils.

Now to the Curse of Morgoth:
‘But upon all whom you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair. Wherever they go, evil shall arise. Whenever they speak, their words shall bring ill counsel. Whatsoever they do shall turn against them. They shall die without hope, cursing both life and death.’
To bring upon Húrin's family darkness and despair.
Posted by GoP
It can’t be doubted that everything Morgoth said came true. For Túrin, Nienor and Morwen there was no love, no beauty, and no hope in anything they did.
Are you sure? That is not truth of course. Morwen is the perfect example of that. Put yourself in that situation. Your husband is a prisioner in Angband, you send your son Túrin away, and never saw him again. Nienor her daugther was lost. When she found them they were already dead.
And what is despair:
despair: To lose all hope.
From the Wanderings of Húrin
At length as Húrin stood there silent she cast back her tattered hood and lifted up her face slowly, haggard and hungry as a long-hunted wolf. Grey she was, sharp-nosed with broken teeth, and with a lean hand she clawed at the cloak upon her breast. But suddenly her eyes looked into his, and then Húrin knew her; for though they were wild now and full of fear, a light still gleamed in them hard to endure: the elven-light that long ago had earned her her name, Eðelwen, proudest of mortal women in the days of old.
'Eðelwen! Eðelwen!' Húrin cried; and she rose and stumbled forward, and he caught her in his arms.
'You come at last,' she said. 'I have waited too long.
'It was a dark road. I have come as I could,' he answered.
'But you are late,' she said, 'too late. They are lost.'
'I know,' he said. 'But thou art not.'
'Almost,' she said. 'I am spent utterly. I shall go with the sun.
Even with all that happened to her, she still waited for Húrin's return. It was impossible for Húrin to escape from Angband, and Morwen knowing that still waited for him. She never lost hope, therefore the Curse of Morgoth, was not enough to break her, nor her hope, thus it failed.
Compare Finwë and Míriel with Húrin and Morwen. Finwë and Míriel lived in Paradise, they had a child and then they lost hope. Finwë didn't give his wife time to heal, and thought that his suffering was greater than that of his wife.
Morwen should have had no reason to wait for Húrin. Her sons were dead, her husband imprisioned in Hell. And yet, she still clung to the hope of being reunited with him again. It cost her a lot, but she always retained hope.
From Later Quentas:
. This is Hope which, I deem, is before all else the virtue most fair in the Children of Eru
This is the love story of the Quenta Silmarillion.

baragund

08-29-2003, 09:38 PM

The Guild of Scholars will argue that the Doom of Mandos was more effective in the fulfillment of it’s intent than the Curse of Morgoth.

First, let’s establish the intent of the Doom of Mandos. It was a warning to the Noldor against continuing down a rash path. The Noldor had just committed the kin slaying, and they were fleeing up the east coast of Valinor in pursuit of Morgoth and the stolen Silmarils. Mandos appeared to them just before they reached the Helcaraxe and issued the Doom as a way of saying ‘bad things are going to happen to you if you continue this way’. It was a last appeal to the Noldor to give up their rashness before the Valar turn their backs on them. Indeed some heed Mandos, return to Valinor and are forgiven. Finarfin and some of his people returned where “they received the pardon of the Valar, and Finarfin was set to rule the remnant of the Noldor in the Blessed Realm.” It sounds to me like a ‘and they lived happily ever after’ ending for Finarfin’s people.

So, to determine the effectiveness of the Doom, we need to show how each part of it came true for the Noldorin exiles. Let’s take a look at each part of the Doom and then see if we can tie it to later events.

1. “…the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that even the echo of your lamentations shall pass over the mountains.”

Well, that was certainly the case. From the struggle of Fingolfin’s host over the Helcaraxe through the Battle of Unnumbered Tears to the fall of Nargothrond and Gondolin, there was no help or acknowledgement of the Noldor’s plight from Valinor. Only Earendil, armed with the Silmaril, was able to fight his way through to Valinor and win the pardon of the Valar.

2. “On the House of Feanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that follow them it shall be laid also.”

Feanor and all of his sons met ruin. All of their realms were ultimately destroyed. Even later generations like Celebrimbor, son of Curufin, ultimately came to ruin in the ensnarement by Sauron over the Rings of Power and the ultimate destruction of Ost-in-Edhil.

3. “Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue.”

The best examples of the fulfillment of this part of the Doom could be found in the Second Kinslaying where the seven sons of Feanor destroyed Doriath but still lost the first Silmaril when it was entrusted to Elwing, Dior’s daughter, who brought it to the sea. Another is the aftermath of the War of Wrath, where Maglor and Maedhros steal the Silmarils from Eonwe’s camp but find that they burn the two brothers just as Morgoth was burned. Finally, they see the folly of their oath and Maedhros casts himself to his deaths while Maglor throws the other Silmaril into the sea and spends the rest of the ages singing in pain and regret.

4. “To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass.”

Compare the spectacular beginning of the House of Feanor, starting with the Battle Under the Stars, the Mered Aderthad, the Siege of Angband and establishment of kingdoms for each of the seven sons. Then look at how treason and treachery destroyed the alliances, tipped the Battle of Unnumbered Tears in favor of Morgoth, caused the sons of Feanor to cause the ultimate ruin of Doriath, and even turned them against the assembled hosts of the Valar after the War of Wrath.

5. “The Dispossessed shall they be forever.”

Maedhros cast himself into a chasm filled with with one Silmaril. He expired and the Silmaril was returned to the bosom of the Earth. Maglor cast the second into the sea and the third is sailing the skies with Earendil. Feanor’s oath ultimately was a total failure.

6. “For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death’s shadow. Etc. etc.”

This whole paragraph addresses the ability of the Noldor to be slain in warfare, torment or grief, and their ultimate fading. The returning of their spirits to the halls of Mandos reflects a kind of purgatory while those that remain in Middle-Earth grow every more weary with the increasing burden of the years. This phenomenon is clearly shown through the ongoing wars and strife endured by the Noldor through the first three ages. The warfare and torment part is most clearly evident during the events of the First Age while the Third Age focuses mostly on the effects of the wearying effects of Middle-earth through the millennia.

7. “And those that endure… shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after.”

What a profound prophecy! This sums up in a single sentence the waning of the Elves and the coming dominance of Men by the end of the Third Age.

That’s enough for now. In my next post I’ll try to poke holes in the Curse of Morgoth.

Celebthôl

08-31-2003, 06:53 PM

Hey hey, this is my first debate...proper one with judges anyway, so bare with me...

“…the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that even the echo of your lamentations shall pass over the mountains.”

If this was fullfilled except for Eärendil, then please explain to me how Idril who was well aware of the Doom of Mandos and was one of those that willingly left Valinor against the wishes of the Valar managed to get back in with Tuor?

“Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue.”

And...

Another is the aftermath of the War of Wrath, where Maglor and Maedhros steal the Silmarils from Eonwe’s camp but find that they burn the two brothers just as Morgoth was burned. Finally, they see the folly of their oath and Maedhros casts himself to his deaths while Maglor throws the other Silmaril into the sea and spends the rest of the ages singing in pain and regret.

True they didnt actually get to keep the Silmaril's, they did get hold of them though and they were not "snatched away" from them, they fulfilled their oath, they just could not deal with how they accomplished it.

“To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass.”

May I just refure to the 3 Elven rings, they were created by Celebrimbor (of the house or Fëanor, so therefore part of the doom), they never turned evil in all their time of use, they were used to make places such as Rivendell and Lothlórien beautiful, which they did very effectively.

“The Dispossessed shall they be forever.”

Including Idril who returned after a short stay in Middle Earth, and Galadriel who stayed a lot longer. Forever means just that; to rephrase it:

"They shall never ever not be dispossessed"

The Doom fell through in this istance.

“For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death’s shadow. Etc. etc.”

Again, Idril was pulled into this Doom and she didnt die in Middle Earth nor did she grow weary over the years of living there.

“And those that endure… shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after.”

Does this include Galadriel, i swear she was present when Mandos set the Doom, she didnt look like she was ever regretful to me.

Niniel

08-31-2003, 09:23 PM

_________________
Posted by Maedhros
This is of course very weird. You see in the Music of the Ainur, the Ainur were only involved in the first two themes. In the third theme, when Ilúvatar made his children the Ainur had no part. To say that the Ainur would know everything that would happen with the Elves and Men in ME without them being actually involved in the that theme cannot be right. Simple. There is only one being who knows everything and that is Ilúvatar.
___________________________________

I meant that the fate of the Elves is destined by the Ainulindalë. It says in the Sil: ‘but they (Men) should have virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all thing else. That means that everything happening to the Elves could not have been otherwise. Of course the Valar did not know what was in the third theme, thus they didn’t know exactly what was going to happen to the Noldor. But they knew enough to make a prediction.
What I was trying to say was that the Doom of Mandos is very vague in its contents: the Noldor will suffer, but it does not say that there will be only suffering and no happiness. They will die, but it doesn’t say if they will all die. ‘Long shall they abide’, but it doesn’t say how long and if they will never be able to return to their bodies. Since the words are vague, it is not possible to determine how all-encompassing the Doom was meant to be, and thus not possible to say that the purpose of the Doom was more complete that the Curse of Morgoth.
With Morgoth’s curse you know that there is no escaping it, no way to find anything beautiful as long as the Curse lasts, while the Doom of the Valar knows quite a lot of exceptions.

___________________
Posted by Maedhros
Menegroth of course it's the work of Telerin elves with a maiar. It was at first fully independent of the Doom of Mandos.
_______________________

Yes, but its fate was tied to that of the Noldor; since the Noldor fought against Melkor and Doriath was defended by Melian’s powers especially against Melkor, it was only a matter of time before it would be involved in the war of the Noldor against Melkor.

_____________________
Posted by Maedhros
Where in all of that say that the Ñoldor wouldn't create beautiful things in ME? Where does it says good things couldn't happen in ME? Where does it says that there would be no love in Me because of the Curse? It's all in there, and it doesn't say it.
_______________________________
Exactly, if the Doom of Mandos was to be more complete in its purpose, it should not have left open the possibility that there was going to be beauty, love and other good things.

_________________________
Posted by Maedhros
Hehe. All elves are rehoused sooner or later. It depends on their deeds. In the case of Glorfindel and Finrod, you have to take into account their deeds.
Glorfindel is the elf of Gondolin who fought with a balrog in order to help Tuor and Co escape and then go to the havens of Sirion. He sacrificed himself for others. But in reality, JRRT had used the name Glorfindel in LOTR, and he had forgotten that he had used in the Tale of the Fall of Gondolin, so instead of changing one name, he merely made him re-house and be the same one.
Finrod is of course, the wisest of all the exiled Ñoldor. It was he who first encountered Men and instructed them, and it was he who gave his life to save Beren. And he took no part in the kinslaying of Alqualondë.
__________________________

The fact that their were exceptions to the prediction made in the Doom suggests that the Doom was not as complete in its purpose as the Curse of Morgoth.

____________________
Posted by Maedhros
quote:

This seems both to prove that the Doom of Mandos was only a prophesy and not caused by the Valar, because everything, even Ulmo’s breach of Doom, seems to be destined during the Ainulindalë, and also that the Doom was not all-embracing, since things can be done that were not in the Doom.

I think there is the matter of scope. The doom focuses mainly on the House of Fëanor, and those who followed them. At that point, it would the other Ñoldorian princes. When they arrived in ME, more were lured into it, including the Edain, who aided the Ñoldor in the War against Morgoth. Notice that when the Valar arrived with their hosts for the War of Wrath, all of the Ñoldorian Kingdoms were extinct: Gondolin, Nargothrond, Fingon's and those of the sons of Fëanor. All of them had suffered greatly, as the Doom foretold. The Edain, who aided the Ñoldor, suffered greatly too. The Doom never states that ME would become the sole domain of Morgoth Bauglir. Notice that the doom does not says that all the Ñoldor or Men would be anihilated, just that they would suffer greatly from treason, and so it was. The Ñoldor lost the Nirnaeth because of the treason of Ulfang and his sons. Gondolin was destroyed by treason. The remants of Doriath and the Havens of Sirion were ravaged by the sons of Fëanor and in all of their tries, they never obtained the Silmaril.
It was only after the Valar had forsaken the Curse of Mandos that ME was saved. Interesting that it was then that Maeðros and Maglor were able to obtain the Silmarils.
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You are right that the help of the Valar only came after the destruction of most of the Noldorin kingdoms and princes. But the fact that they did come, and that it was possible for Eärendil to reach them, proves that they had taken pity on the Noldor and the Edain. Morgoth would never take pity on anyone.
And even before the war of Wrath the Valar helped the Noldor and Edain, e.g. Ulmo helped Tuor, and there were other exceptions to the Doom, such as Finrod not having to stay in the Halls of Mandos.

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Posted by Maedhros
Even with all that happened to her, she still waited for Húrin's return. It was impossible for Húrin to escape from Angband, and Morwen knowing that still waited for him. She never lost hope, therefore the Curse of Morgoth, was not enough to break her, nor her hope, thus it failed.
Morwen should have had no reason to wait for Húrin. Her sons were dead, her husband imprisioned in Hell. And yet, she still clung to the hope of being reunited with him again. It cost her a lot, but she always retained hope.
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The problem is: did Morwen know that there was a Curse? How could she have known? Nobody actually told her that she and her family were cursed by Morgoth. If she had known that, she might have lost hope that she would ever see Húrin again.
And I think that Húrin and Morwen finding each other were only a part of Morgoth’s scheming; Húrin could thus see that the Curse was fulfilled completely, and that his family had indeed suffered as much as Morgoth had wanted. After he had seen that this was so, he went to Thingol in Doriath with the Nauglamír, and cast it at the feet of Thingol it wild and bitter words: Receive now they fee,’ he cried, for thy fair keeping of my children and my wife!’ ‘
Thus being the cause of the ruin of Doriath, after he had already unwillingly betrayed the place of Gondolin to Morgoth.
Morgothy could have given Morwen a terrible death, but he chose to let her live and make Húrin the instrument of the destruction of the two most important strongholds of the Elves.

Niniel

08-31-2003, 09:25 PM

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Posted by Baragund
First, let’s establish the intent of the Doom of Mandos. It was a warning to the Noldor against continuing down a rash path. The Noldor had just committed the kin slaying, and they were fleeing up the east coast of Valinor in pursuit of Morgoth and the stolen Silmarils. Mandos appeared to them just before they reached the Helcaraxe and issued the Doom as a way of saying ‘bad things are going to happen to you if you continue this way’. It was a last appeal to the Noldor to give up their rashness before the Valar turn their backs on them. Indeed some heed Mandos, return to Valinor and are forgiven. Finarfin and some of his people returned where “they received the pardon of the Valar, and Finarfin was set to rule the remnant of the Noldor in the Blessed Realm.” It sounds to me like a ‘and they lived happily ever after’ ending for Finarfin’s people.

So, to determine the effectiveness of the Doom, we need to show how each part of it came true for the Noldorin exiles. Let’s take a look at each part of the Doom and then see if we can tie it to later events.

1. “…the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that even the echo of your lamentations shall pass over the mountains.”

Well, that was certainly the case. From the struggle of Fingolfin’s host over the Helcaraxe through the Battle of Unnumbered Tears to the fall of Nargothrond and Gondolin, there was no help or acknowledgement of the Noldor’s plight from Valinor. Only Earendil, armed with the Silmaril, was able to fight his way through to Valinor and win the pardon of the Valar.
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Yes, but he came there after all. The Doom sounds as if nobody would ever be able to reach Valinor again. And before the Doom ended, there were Valar who helped the Noldor, such as Ulmo who came to Tuor.

__________________

Posted by Baragund
2. “On the House of Feanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that follow them it shall be laid also.”

Feanor and all of his sons met ruin. All of their realms were ultimately destroyed. Even later generations like Celebrimbor, son of Curufin, ultimately came to ruin in the ensnarement by Sauron over the Rings of Power and the ultimate destruction of Ost-in-Edhil.
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But the ‘wrath of the Valar’ means that the Valar would never help the Noldor and their followers again, but in the end they take pity on them and take the Curse away. That later generations still suffered is not because of the Doom, but because of the evil that was inherent in ME after Morgoth had planted its seeds there.

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Posted by Baragund
3. “Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue.”

The best examples of the fulfillment of this part of the Doom could be found in the Second Kinslaying where the seven sons of Feanor destroyed Doriath but still lost the first Silmaril when it was entrusted to Elwing, Dior’s daughter, who brought it to the sea. Another is the aftermath of the War of Wrath, where Maglor and Maedhros steal the Silmarils from Eonwe’s camp but find that they burn the two brothers just as Morgoth was burned. Finally, they see the folly of their oath and Maedhros casts himself to his deaths while Maglor throws the other Silmaril into the sea and spends the rest of the ages singing in pain and regret.
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As Thôl said, in the end they regained the Silmarils. They could have kept them, it was only their own wisdom that told them it was better to let them go.

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Posted by Baragund
4. “To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass.”

Compare the spectacular beginning of the House of Feanor, starting with the Battle Under the Stars, the Mered Aderthad, the Siege of Angband and establishment of kingdoms for each of the seven sons. Then look at how treason and treachery destroyed the alliances, tipped the Battle of Unnumbered Tears in favor of Morgoth, caused the sons of Feanor to cause the ultimate ruin of Doriath, and even turned them against the assembled hosts of the Valar after the War of Wrath.
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I agree with you on this.

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Posted by Baragund
5. “The Dispossessed shall they be forever.”

Maedhros cast himself into a chasm filled with with one Silmaril. He expired and the Silmaril was returned to the bosom of the Earth. Maglor cast the second into the sea and the third is sailing the skies with Earendil. Feanor’s oath ultimately was a total failure.
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This belongs to your point 4, which I already answered.
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Posted by Baragund
6. “For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death’s shadow. Etc. etc.”

This whole paragraph addresses the ability of the Noldor to be slain in warfare, torment or grief, and their ultimate fading. The returning of their spirits to the halls of Mandos reflects a kind of purgatory while those that remain in Middle-Earth grow every more weary with the increasing burden of the years. This phenomenon is clearly shown through the ongoing wars and strife endured by the Noldor through the first three ages. The warfare and torment part is most clearly evident during the events of the First Age while the Third Age focuses mostly on the effects of the wearying effects of Middle-earth through the millennia.
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Yes, but during all the suffering their was also beauty and love, as I argued before, and if the Doom of Mandos was as all-encompassing and complete in its purpose as the Curse of Mandos this would not have been so.

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Posted by Baragund
7. “And those that endure… shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after.”

What a profound prophecy! This sums up in a single sentence the waning of the Elves and the coming dominance of Men by the end of the Third Age.
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Yes, but the Noldor were given the possibility to return after the Valar had taken pity on them; that they chose not to is not due to the Doom of Mandos.

Feanorian

08-31-2003, 10:10 PM

“…the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that even the echo of your lamentations shall pass over the mountains.”

If this was fullfilled except for Eärendil, then please explain to me how Idril who was well aware of the Doom of Mandos and was one of those that willingly left Valinor against the wishes of the Valar managed to get back in with Tuor?

This quote refers mostly to the house of Feanor as you can tell by the rest of the paragraph which is devoted solely to the house of Feanor. Surely it seems that one who had done so much good would be allowed back into the West, notice it never says Valinor they very well could have gone to perhaps Tol-Eressea. Plus Tuor was not one of the Noldor and Idril was the son of Turgon who was opposed to Feanor in all his doings, which can be seen when Feanor was swearing his oath when swords were once again drawn.

True they didnt actually get to keep the Silmaril's, they did get hold of them though and they were not "snatched away" from them, they fulfilled their oath, they just could not deal with how they accomplished it.

Well, techniaclly they did not fufill their oath, they lost the Silmarils by their own accord, technically they were bound to 'pursue with vengeance and hatred to the ends of the World Vala, Demon, Elf or Man as yet unborn, or any creature, great or small, good or evil, that time should bring forth unto the end of days, whoso should hold or take or keep a Silmaril from their possession.'
Any is defined as: one, some, or all indiscriminately of whatever quantity.
Meaning that when they surrendered the Silmarils by one, some, or all means they broke their oath. The Silmarils were snatched away, snatched away by their own grief and remorse. The oath extended 'UNTO THE END OF DAYS' meaning if they gained and then lost, etc etc.

May I just refure to the 3 Elven rings, they were created by Celebrimbor (of the house or Fëanor, so therefore part of the doom), they never turned evil in all their time of use, they were used to make places such as Rivendell and Lothlórien beautiful, which they did very effectively.

Let me quote my teammate in this situation and then add some of my own:
Posted (ironically) by Maedhros:
Where in all of that say that the Ñoldor wouldn't create beautiful things in ME? Where does it says good things couldn't happen in ME? Where does it says that there would be no love in Me because of the Curse? It's all in there, and it doesn't say it.

This means that things could be created that were beautiful in ME just that: “To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well

The Rings did cause great evil, the whole process of ring-construction sped up the ultimate fading of Elves with Sauron and the whole War of the Ring situation. Rivendell and Lothlorien fell under this part of the curse:

And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after.

“The Dispossessed shall they be forever.”

Once again this was geared towards the House of Feanor. Look in the index under The Dispossessed, this is what is says: The house of Feanor. (Notice my title :) )

"They shall never ever not be dispossessed"

The Doom fell through in this istance.

This is made void because you are not referring to people who are members of the House of Feanor all of who never did make it back to Valinor.

Does this include Galadriel, i swear she was present when Mandos set the Doom, she didnt look like she was ever regretful to me.

hmm, I suppose not regretful but very solemn
whose gentle voice was soft and sad. " I pass the test,' she said ' I will diminish and go into the West, and remain Galadriel.'
Notice the adjectives: soft and sad
now lets look at the definition of sad: causing or associated with grief or unhappiness : DEPRESSING <sad news> (2) : REGRETTABLE, DEPLORABLE

So it seems also that this point is made void.

Maedhros

09-01-2003, 12:06 AM

Posted by GoP
If this was fullfilled except for Eärendil, then please explain to me how Idril who was well aware of the Doom of Mandos and was one of those that willingly left Valinor against the wishes of the Valar managed to get back in with Tuor?
Explanation: From the Quenta
In those days Tuor felt old age creep upon him, and ever a longing for the deeps of the sea grew stronger in his heart. Wherefore he built a great ship Eärámë, Eagle's Pinion, and with Idril he set sail into the sunset and the West, and came no more into any tale or song.
It is very interesting of course. The Quenta is of course, the latest description of the final part of the Quenta Silmarillion that Tolkien wrote. Idril is of course one of the original Ñoldor who departed over the sea. But look at what it is said: She along with Tuor set sail into the sunset and the west.
In the Published Silmarillion, in the same paragraph is written that the alone of mortal Men, Tuor was numbered along the Eldar.
The supposition is that he along with Idril reached Valinórë. But that is all that it is, a supposition. Do we have a time reference as to when did Tuor and Idril arrived in Valinórë? No. Do we even know that they arrived there? No. Note that his future is left obscure in the phrase, and came no more into any tale or song.
And if he did indeed came to Valinórë, do we know if he did so before the Doom of Mandos was over? No. In theory it sounds good, but if you look at it in detail, you will see that you don’t have any definite facts to states that he arrived there before the Doom of Mandos was settled.

Posted by GoP
True they didnt actually get to keep the Silmaril's, they did get hold of them though and they were not "snatched away" from them, they fulfilled their oath, they just could not deal with how they accomplished it.
This is actually after the Doom of Mandos.

Posted by GoP
May I just refure to the 3 Elven rings, they were created by Celebrimbor (of the house or Fëanor, so therefore part of the doom), they never turned evil in all their time of use, they were used to make places such as Rivendell and Lothlórien beautiful, which they did very effectively.
Again, this is irrelevant. The Doom of Mandos ended when the Valar send their aid to Me.

Posted by GoP
Including Idril who returned after a short stay in Middle Earth, and Galadriel who stayed a lot longer. Forever means just that; to rephrase it:
"They shall never ever not be dispossessed"
The Doom fell through in this istance.
Of course the complete phrase is:
'Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever.
This of course refers to the Fëanorians, not all of the Ñoldor. Remember that only the Fëanorians were the ones who swore the Oath.

Posted by GoP
Again, Idril was pulled into this Doom and she didnt die in Middle Earth nor did she grow weary over the years of living there.
Again a supposition, without facts to prove it.

Posted by GoP
Does this include Galadriel, i swear she was present when Mandos set the Doom, she didnt look like she was ever regretful to me.

Look again: From The Road goes Ever On:
She passed over the Mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion. But it was impossible for one of the High-Elves to overcome the yearning for the Sea, and the longing to pass over it again to the land of their former bliss. She was now burdened with this desire. In the event, after the fall of Sauron, in reward for all that she had done to oppose him, but above all for her rejection of the Ring when it came within her power, the ban was lifted, and she returned over the Sea, as is told at the end of The Lord of the Rings.

That is indeed regret to me.

Posted by GoP
Hey hey, this is my first debate...proper one with judges anyway, so bare with me...

Ok.;)

Maedhros

09-01-2003, 12:09 AM

Posted by GoP
This means that everything that had happened was already included in the Music of the Ainur, and that the Valar only prophesied it to the Noldor. In that case the Doom was not a punishment, and it can not have an exact purpose, because everything was destined to happen the way it did, and not otherwise.
Nonetheless even though the Doom sounds to be quite clear, not the whole Doom came to be; or at least not to its fullest extent.
You contradict yourself, not only with the internal cohesiveness of the story but with the language used. JRR Tolkien was a professor of English language and literature. Look at what is written before the actual Doom:
From the Published Silmarillion
And they heard a loud voice, solemn and terrible, that bade them stand and give ear. Then all halted and stood still, and from end to end of the hosts of the Noldor the voice was heard speaking the curse and prophecy which is called the Prophecy of the North, and the Doom of the Noldor.
What is a prophecy?
Prophecy: A prediction of the future, made under divine inspiration.
If you would know exactly what would happen in the future, it would not be a prediction but a certainity, thus not a prophecy. And besides that, it doesn’t makes sense with what you have previously posted. If Men can shape their lives, and they interacted with the Elves, how could they not affected the outcome of ME in ways unknown by the Valar.

Posted by GoP
Yes, but its fate was tied to that of the Noldor; since the Noldor fought against Melkor and Doriath was defended by Melian’s powers especially against Melkor, it was only a matter of time before it would be involved in the war of the Noldor against Melkor.
Their fate was tied in the Doom of the Ñoldor because Thingol asked for the Silmaril.
From the Published Silmarillion
Yet I hear you say that bonds such as these do not daunt you. Go your way therefore! Bring to me in your hand a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown; and then, if she will, Lúthien may set her hand in yours. Then you shall have my jewel; and though the fate of Arda lie within the Silmarils, yet you shall hold me generous.'
Thus he wrought the doom of Doriath, and was ensnared within the curse of Mandos.

Posted by GoP
Exactly, if the Doom of Mandos was to be more complete in its purpose, it should not have left open the possibility that there was going to be beauty, love and other good things.
The Doom of Mandos has nothing to do whatsoever about this. Refer to the Doom of Mandos, not the notion that you have about it.

Posted by GoP
The fact that their were exceptions to the prediction made in the Doom suggests that the Doom was not as complete in its purpose as the Curse of Morgoth.
Exceptions? It is the natural state. From Morgoth’s Ring: Laws and Customs of the Eldar
It was in Aman that they learned of Manwë that each fëa was imperishable within the life of Arda, and that its fate was to inhabit Arda to its end. Those fëar, therefore, that in the marring of Arda suffered unnaturally a divorce from their hrondor [> hröar] remained still in Arda and in Time. But in this state they were open to the direct instruction and command of the Valar. As soon as they were disbodied they were summoned to leave the places of their life and death and go to the 'Halls of Waiting': Mandos, in the realm of the Valar.
If they obeyed this summons different opportunities lay before them. The length of time that they dwelt in Waiting was partly at the will of Námo the Judge, lord of Mandos, partly at their own will. The happiest fortune, they deemed, was after the Waiting to be re-born, for so the evil and grief that they had suffered in the curtailment of their natural course might be redressed.
And Glorfindel being allowed to return to ME was way after the Doom of Mandos, so there is no contradiction with it.

Posted by GoP
But the fact that they did come, and that it was possible for Eärendil to reach them, proves that they had taken pity on the Noldor and the Edain. Morgoth would never take pity on anyone.
And even before the war of Wrath the Valar helped the Noldor and Edain, e.g. Ulmo helped Tuor, and there were other exceptions to the Doom, such as Finrod not having to stay in the Halls of Mandos.
Eärendil reached Valinórë not because the Valar had taken pity on the Ñoldor, he reached it because of the Silmaril that he bore along with Elwing. It was after he talked, that they took pity on ME.
Where does it says that Finrod didn’t go to the Halls of Mandos? That he was allowed to leave it does not mean that he didn’t stay there for a while. In fact, we have no time table of his returning. We could have spend hundreds of years in there.

Posted by GoP
The problem is: did Morwen know that there was a Curse? How could she have known? Nobody actually told her that she and her family were cursed by Morgoth. If she had known that, she might have lost hope that she would ever see Húrin again.
And how could Túrin and Nienor know about the Curse? Did Morgoth told them? Convenient to use this false argument only when it favors you. But Morwen did know that her sons had died and her husband was imprisioned in Hell and she didn’t give up.

Posted by GoP
And I think that Húrin and Morwen finding each other were only a part of Morgoth’s scheming;
This is the problem, this is not about what we think, but what really happened.
Posted by GoP
After he had seen that this was so, he went to Thingol in Doriath with the Nauglamír, and cast it at the feet of Thingol it wild and bitter words: Receive now they fee,’ he cried, for thy fair keeping of my children and my wife!’ ‘
Thus being the cause of the ruin of Doriath, after he had already unwillingly betrayed the place of Gondolin to Morgoth.
Morgothy could have given Morwen a terrible death, but he chose to let her live and make Húrin the instrument of the destruction of the two most important strongholds of the Elves.
Just so that we are in the same page. That is not what happened. Húrin couldn’t take the Nauglamír to Thingol because it didn’t exist. It was made for Thingol by the dwarves of Nogrod. The story in the Published Silmarillion has many editorial additions. From The War of the Jewels: Tale of Years
In the story that appears in The Silmarillion the outlaws who went with Húrin to Nargothrond were removed, as also was the curse of Mîm; and the only treasure that Húrin took from Nargothrond was the Nauglamîr - which was here supposed to have been made by Dwarves for Finrod Felagund, and to have been the most prized by him of all the hoard of Nargothrond. Húrin was represented as being at last freed from the delusions inspired by Morgoth in his encounter with Melian in Menegroth. The Dwarves who set the Silmaril in the Nauglamîr were already in Menegroth engaged on other works, and it was they who slew Thingol; at that time Melian's power was with-drawn from Neldoreth and Region, and she vanished out of Middle-earth, leaving Doriath unprotected. The ambush and destruction of the Dwarves at Sarn Athrad was given again to Beren and the Green Elves (following my father's letter of 1963 quoted on p. 353, where however he said that 'Beren had no army'), and from the same source the Ents, 'Shepherds of the Trees', were introduced.
This story was not lightly or easily conceived, but was the outcome of long experimentation among alternative conceptions. In this work Guy Kay took a major part, and the chapter that I finally wrote owes much to my discussions with him. It is, and was, obvious that a step was being taken of a different order from any other 'manipulation' of my father's own writing in the course of the book: even in the case of the story of The Fall of Gondolin, to which my father had never returned, something could be contrived without introducing radical changes in the narrative. It seemed at that time that there were elements inherent in the story of the Ruin of Doriath as it stood that were radically incompatible with 'The Silmarillion' as projected, and that there was here an inescapable choice: either to abandon that conception, or else to alter the story. I think now that this was a mistaken view, and that the undoubted difficulties could have been, and should have been, surmounted without so far overstepping the bounds of the editorial function.

As I posted before, Thingol was the architect of the destruction of Doriath by asking for the Silmaril, and Gondolin was destroyed by the betrayal of Maeglin, as predicted by the Doom of Mandos by the way.

Maedhros

09-01-2003, 01:05 AM

A Clarification about the Curse of Mandos

From the Published Silmarillion
But when all was spoken, Manwë gave judgement, and he said: 'In this matter the power of doom is given to me.
But the host of the Valar prepared for battle; and beneath their white banners marched the Vanyar, the people of Ingwë, and those also of the Noldor who never departed from Valinor, whose leader was Finarfin the son of Finwë. Few of the Teleri were willing to go forth to war, for they remembered the slaying at the Swan-haven, and the rape of their ships; but they hearkened to Elwing, who was the daughter of Dior Eluchíl and come of their own kindred, and they sent mariners enough to sail the ships that bore the host of Valinor east over the sea. Yet they stayed aboard their vessels, and none of them set foot upon the Hither Lands.

At this time, the doom of Mandos was over. Manwë disbanded it.

Curse of Morgoth or Pride

Much has been said by the GoP about the Curse of Morgoth. It is interesting in how they say that Men can alter the shape of their lives outside of the Music of the Ainur. If Húrin and his family are all humans, aren’t their ends the results of their actions? It was pride that was their undoing. Let’s take a closer look at the supposed Curse of Morgoth:
From Unfinished Tales: Narn
"Behold! The shadow of my thought shall lie upon them wherever they go, and my hate shall pursue them to the ends of the world."
But Húrin said: "You speak in vain. For you cannot see them, nor govern them from afar: not while you keep this shape, and desire still to be a King visible upon earth."
Interesting what it is said here. Morgoth cannot govern them from afar. Men are not his puppets. Remember that Morgoth took visible form and spend his great powers in his hröa and his subjects.
It is the words of Húrin that came true:
"This last then I will say to you, thrall Morgoth," said Húrin, "and it comes not from the lore of the Eldar, but is put into my heart in this hour. You are not the Lord of Men, and shall not be, though all Arda and Menel fall in your dominion. Beyond the Circles of the World you shall not pursue those who refuse you."

Túrin went to Doriath and was raised there. He fled because of the incident with Saeros and joined with a band of outlaws. Beleg found him and told him that he could return back safely to Doriath and that he had received the pardon of Thingol. But why didn’t Túrin come back? It was because of his pride.
"That may be, if fall you call it," said Túrin. "That may be. But so it went; and words stuck in my throat. There was reproof in his eyes, without question asked of me, for a deed I had not done. My Man's heart was proud, as the Elf-king said. And so it still is, Beleg Cúthalion. Not yet will it suffer me to go back to Menegroth and bear looks of pity and pardon, as for a wayward boy amended. I should give pardon, not receive it. And I am a boy no longer, but a man, according to my kind; and a hard man by my fate."

Why didn’t Morwen and Nienor stay in Doriath? It was because they were too proud to do so.
"No," said Nienor. "It is long since I was a child. I have a will and wisdom of my own, though until now it has not crossed yours. I go with you. Rather to Doriath, for reverence of those that rule it; but if not, then westward. Indeed, if either of us should go on, it is I rather, in the fullness of strength."
Then Morwen saw in the grey eyes of Nienor the steadfastness of Húrin; and she wavered, but she could not overcome her pride, and would not seem thus (save the fair words) to be led back by her daughter, as one old and doting.

Why was Túrin daunted by Glaurung?
For fear of that helm all foes avoided him, and thus it was that he came off unhurt from that deadly field. It was thus that he came back to Nargothrond wearing the Dragon-helm, and Glaurung, desiring to rid Túrin of its aid and protection (since he himself feared it), taunted him, saying that surely Túrin claimed to be his vassal and retainer, since he bore his master's likeness on the crest of his helm.
But Túrin answered: "Thou liest, and knowest it. For this image was made in scorn of thee; and while there one to bear it doubt shall ever assail thee, lest the bearer deal thee thy doom."
"Then it must await a master of another name," said Glaurung; "for Túrin son of Húrin I do not fear. Otherwise is it. For he has not the hardihood to look me in the face, openly."
And indeed so great was the terror of the Dragon that Túrin dared not look straight upon his eye, but had kept the visor of his helmet down, shielding his face, and in his parley had looked no higher than Glaurung's feet. But being thus taunted, in pride and rashness he thrust up the visor and looked Glaurung in the eye.

If you make wrong choices, the outcome will be bad. It was their pride that was their undoing. And with all of their faults, the death of her sons and the imprisonment of her husband Húrin, she never gave up hope.
And her heart still cheated her with hope unadmitted; her inmost thought foreboded that Húrin was not dead, and she listened for his footfall in the sleepless watches of the night, or would wake thinking that she had heard in the courtyard the neigh of Arroch his horse. Moreover though she was willing that her son should be fostered in the halls of another, after the manner of that time, she would not yet humble her pride to be an alms-guest, not even of a king.

It was the pride of their family that was their undoing. But Morwen never felt to despair, she always retained the hope that Húrin would return and he did.
This is Hope which, I deem, is before all else the virtue most fair in the Children of Eru.

Elfarmari

09-01-2003, 05:05 AM

quote: “For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death’s shadow. Etc. etc.”
Again, Idril was pulled into this Doom and she didnt die in Middle Earth nor did she grow weary over the years of living there. Where does is say she did not grow weary? Also, she dwelt in Death's shadow; she was one of the few to survive the Fall of Gondolin, where her father and most of the population of Gondolin perished. I would say that was suffering. . .

quote: “And those that endure… shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after.” This is, of course, my own supposition, but I woudl think that even those who returned to Valinor after the Doom was fufilled would not have been free of regret. They would be returning to Tol Eressea, but would be leaving Middle Earth and all of its beauty.

Exactly, if the Doom of Mandos was to be more complete in its purpose, it should not have left open the possibility that there was going to be beauty, love and other good things.We are not debating what the Doom of Mandos should have been, but if it was complete in its purpose as it was written.

Celebthôl

09-01-2003, 01:01 PM

[B]Posted by GoS

This is actually after the Doom of Mandos.

Posted by GoS

Again, this is irrelevant. The Doom of Mandos ended when the Valar send their aid to Me.

So just for my own clarification, how does one lift a prophecy? Or end it at least?

Posted by GoS

I think there is the matter of scope. The doom focuses mainly on the House of Fëanor, and those who followed them.

Not really, it was not set on them, or focused, it was mearly told to them, as they were the ones leaving in haste. The ones leaving were the ones that needed to be told it as it was directly going to effect them.

Feanorian

09-01-2003, 05:27 PM

Not really, it was not set on them, or focused, it was mearly told to them, as they were the ones leaving in haste. The ones leaving were the ones that needed to be told it as it was directly going to effect them.

Yes......really, it was directed at them. Notice my prior post concerning this, it pretty much sums it up.

Celebthôl

09-01-2003, 05:36 PM

No quotes now, as I don't have time, but if the Doom was all about the House of Fëanor, why did the fleet or Turgon not reach Valinor?

Niniel

09-01-2003, 06:49 PM

I think we are losing track of the subject of the debate. The question was:
Both the Curse of Morgoth and the Doom of Mandos were made with a goal in mind; both were punishments that in the end came to touch the lives of all who lived in Belariand at the end of the First Age, whether the curse and doom were intended for them or not.
Which of these two was the best at meeting and/or exceeding its intended purpose?

To do this we should of course first try to establish what the purpose was. According to Baragund: ‘It was a warning to the Noldor against continuing down a rash path. Mandos appeared to them just before they reached the Helcaraxe and issued the Doom as a way of saying ‘bad things are going to happen to you if you continue this way’. It was a last appeal to the Noldor to give up their rashness before the Valar turn their backs on them. Indeed some heed Mandos, return to Valinor and are forgiven. Finarfin and some of his people returned where “they received the pardon of the Valar, and Finarfin was set to rule the remnant of the Noldor in the Blessed Realm.” ‘

Thus, according to Baragund, the purpose of the Doom of Mandos was to convince the Noldor to turn back. If that is true, it failed utterly, because most of them did not turn back.

Baragund continues: ‘So, to determine the effectiveness of the Doom, we need to show how each part of it came true for the Noldorin exiles’.
No, if the Doom was only meant to try and persuade the Noldor to turn back, we only need to see if they did, and we just saw they didn’t.

The others from GoS so far have not precisely stated what the purpose of the Doom was, according to them, unless they agree with Baragund. From Maedhros’ words I understand that he considers the Doom to be a prophecy: ‘the voice was heard speaking the curse and prophecy which is called the Prophecy of the North, and the Doom of the Noldor’, as Maedhros quotes.

But, if it was only a prophecy and not a punishment, how can it be lifted by the Valar? GoS has said several times ‘this happened after the doom was lifted’, but how can it be lifted if it was not a punishment?
Can the GoS explain their exact ideas about the purpose of the Doom of Mandos?

Chymaera

09-02-2003, 11:31 AM

The Debate will end on September 4, 2003

1:49 am Mountain Daylight Time -7 GMT

I will be away at that time. So please try to be done before then. :)

Thank you.

Niniel

09-02-2003, 07:22 PM

And how could Túrin and Nienor know about the Curse? Did Morgoth told them? Convenient to use this false argument only when it favors you. But Morwen did know that her sons had died and her husband was imprisioned in Hell and she didn’t give up

Of course Túrin and Nienor didn't know about the curse either. And in fact they also had hope, namely to see each other again. Morgoth was willing to give them that; and then it brought them despair, for Nienor killed herself when she found out that Túrin was her brother. She did die without hope, cursing both life and death, and so did Túrin.
Morwen had hope to see Húrin again, and although she died happily, for him it brought only more pain when he saw what had happened to his family.

The Curse of Morgoth can be divided in four parts:
-'Wherever they go, evil shall arise'. It did; a trail of disaster followed them.
-'Whenever they speak, their words shall bring ill counsel.' Túrin managed to get in a fight every time, even though he didn't at first intend to (with Saeros, Mîm, Brodda).
-'Whatsoever they do shall turn against them.' Everything Túrin did turned out wrong even though he thought they were right; such as killing Beleg, and marrying Nienor.
-They shall die without hope, cursing both life and death.'Nienor and Túrin definitely did.'

It was the pride of their family that was their undoing.
You make it look as if Morgoth had nothing to do with the undoing of Húrin's family. Húrin says to Morgoth that 'You are not the lord of Men, and shall not be, though all Arda and Menel fall under your dominion. Beyond the Circles of the World you shall not pursue those who refuse you.' But within the world Morgoth has enough power to cause great suffering.

You give some examples of things that happened due to their own pride, but there happened many more things in which pride did not play any part, such as when Túrin killed Beleg, and when Nienor and Túrin married each other without knowing they were family.
So what you say
Refer to the Doom of Mandos, not the notion that you have about it. also goes for yourself; it doesn't say anywhere that Tolkien especially saw pride as the cause of the ruin of Húrin's family. It seems to me that Morgoth did a pretty thorough job with cursing Húrin's family.
It quite fulfilled its purpose, and though he only cursed Húrin's family ('all whom you love') it also destroyed Húrin's own life. And, depending on which version of the story you read, also played a part in the destruction of Gondolin and Doriath.QUOTE]Originally posted by Maedhros And how could Túrin and Nienor know about the Curse? Did Morgoth told them? Convenient to use this false argument only when it favors you. But Morwen did know that her sons had died and her husband was imprisioned in Hell and she didn’t give up.[ And how could Túrin and Nienor know about the Curse? Did Morgoth told them? Convenient to use this false argument only when it favors you. But Morwen did know that her sons had died and her husband was imprisioned in Hell and she didn’t give up.[

Aulë

09-02-2003, 08:07 PM

The Doom of Mandos
'Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever.
'Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death's shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.'

Now, what I want to do it split this up a little. Figure out which parts came true, and which one did not entirely.

'Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains
Well, as Maedhros said, it's pretty obvious that the Noldor shed Unnumbered tears. The Silmarillion would be rather dull without it. ;)
But the second part...Did Eärendil get past the fence? Yes. He was not shut out.
Did his lamentation reach the Valar? You better believe it.
Did the Valar acknowledge this, and go and help the Noldor and their followers? Yes.

On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also.
Yes, that was true.

Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever.
This was slightly true, but they were not dispossessed for ever. Maedhros (The elf, not the debator ;) ) and Maglor got their dirty little paws on the Silmarils. Albeit for a brief time, they did get a hold of them.
Originally posted by Maedhros
It was only after the Valar had forsaken the Curse of Mandos that ME was saved. Interesting that it was then that Maeðros and Maglor were able to obtain the Silmarils.
Read the Doom, Maedhros my friend, it says that they were to be dispossessed of their treasures forever.

'Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death's shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief;
Yep

and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.'
Now this is where the Doom starts getting holes in it.
Originally posted by Maedhros
Hehe. All elves are rehoused sooner or later. It depends on their deeds. In the case of Glorfindel and Finrod, you have to take into account their deeds.
Glorfindel is the elf of Gondolin who fought with a balrog in order to help Tuor and Co escape and then go to the havens of Sirion. He sacrificed himself for others. But in reality, JRRT had used the name Glorfindel in LOTR, and he had forgotten that he had used in the Tale of the Fall of Gondolin, so instead of changing one name, he merely made him re-house and be the same one.
Finrod is of course, the wisest of all the exiled Ñoldor. It was he who first encountered Men and instructed them, and it was he who gave his life to save Beren. And he took no part in the kinslaying of Alqualondë.
But that is beside the point, dear Maedhros. They went to Mandos, and received pity and were given their bodies back. You say that all Elves are rehoused sooner or later? Good- I agree with that, it shows that the Doom was not fulfulled to completion, as all the Noldor were given their bodies back.
And say what you will about Tolkien making an 'error' in putting down Glorfindel's name twice. It happened, he wrote it down, and the proof is on paper.
Originally posted by Maedhros
So, if they were left on ME, they would have waned like Mandos says. I agree with that.
But they weren't just left on ME or sent to Mandos! Galadriel, Elrond and many others were 'pardoned' and allowed back to Valinor. Sure, they grey weary of the world, but they did not become shadows of regret; they left ME and went to Valinor- where they forever lived in bliss. That part of the prophecy was false!

Now we must remember (as Baragund stated) that the Doom of Mandos was primarily used as a warning not to leave Valinor to pursue Morgoth.
Did it work? No.
The purpose of the Doom of Mandos did not succeed, and even some of the predictions of the punishments did not come to pass entirely.

Celebthôl

09-02-2003, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by Maedhros
It was only after the Valar had forsaken the Curse of Mandos that ME was saved. Interesting that it was then that Maeðros and Maglor were able to obtain the Silmarils.

Doom, not curse, doom.

It was mearly a prediction, not a set curse. You cannot lift a prediction.

I'll finish this later as im out of time....

Maedhros

09-03-2003, 12:40 AM

Posted by GoP
No quotes now, as I don't have time, but if the Doom was all about the House of Fëanor, why did the fleet or Turgon not reach Valinor?
I wonder if we are reading the same book.
From the Published Silmarillion
'Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever.
I can't put in any clearer than this. The people of Turgon were of course followers of the Fëanorians. Simple.
Posted by GoP
So just for my own clarification, how does one lift a prophecy? Or end it at least?
I think that it is a very good question.
From the Published Silmarillion
'Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death's shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.'
And this is exactly what happened to the exiled Ñoldor. Look at their princes and Kingdoms just before the War of Wrath. All of their kingdoms were destroyed, most of their followers were dead. The ones that survived such as Galadriel, lived with a grief of all that they had lost, and would be forever drawn to the West as per The Road Goes Ever On. Look at Gil-Galad, who was of the house of Finarfin, how he lost his family and their kingdoms. Look at all the death and suffering that they endured. Look at the surviving sons of Fëanor, tough they were not slained
they had great regrets. Of course, the war against Morgoth without the aid of the Valar was hopeless.
After that War had ended, Manwë over ruled Námo, and gave the exiled Ñoldor the chance to return to Valinórë. The GoP states that how can a prophecy be lifted, the answer is that at that time, the effects of it couldn't be undone, they had already happened. Most of the exiled Ñoldor were dead, and those who remained, were stricken by the grief of the loss of their loved ones.
Posted by GoP
But, if it was only a prophecy and not a punishment, how can it be lifted by the Valar? GoS has said several times ‘this happened after the doom was lifted’, but how can it be lifted if it was not a punishment?
Can the GoS explain their exact ideas about the purpose of the Doom of Mandos?
I wonder why don't the GoP take into account the word curse in that sentence.
Let's look at the current events in the rebellion of the Ñolor:
Slaying of the Ñoldóran.
Rebellion of Fëanor in the Ring of Doom.
The Ñoldor begin to flee from Tirion.
Receive a message from Manwë to restrain their going and stay because it will not end well and the hour was evil.
Ñoldor reach Alqualondë, Teleri refuse to aid them, the Kinslaying.
Ñoldor reach the Wastes of Araman and then the Doom of Mandos.

The warning to the Ñoldor had alredy come to them by the messanger of Manwë. After the kinslaying, Námo cursed the ones that would go to ME. There were some, who were sad because of the Kinslaying and after hearing of the curse, chose to seek the pardon of the Valar. It was a curse directed at the house of Fëanor and those who chose to follow him to ME. Simple. And it was fulfilled utterly. The exiled Ñoldor who were not killed, were stricken with grief for the lost of their loves ones.

Maedhros

09-03-2003, 02:34 AM

Posted by GoP
Of course Túrin and Nienor didn't know about the curse either. And in fact they also had hope, namely to see each other again. Morgoth was willing to give them that; and then it brought them despair, for Nienor killed herself when she found out that Túrin was her brother. She did
Interesting. Morwen survived and never lost hope for the return of Húrin. She didn't lose hope. But the reasoning of the GoP is that well, Morwen didn't hear the curse of Morgoth, but Nienor did indeed died and suffer the curse of Morgoth, even though she didn't hear it either. How convenient. This proves of course that the curse of Morgoth didn't go to it's intended purpose because:
Narn:
But upon all whom you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair.
Despair is lack of hope. If Húrin loved Morwen, and Morwen living to find out that her sons were dead, and her husband was a prisioner of Angband, why not kill herself and give up to despair. But yet she didn't, she waited and waited for Húrin and he came at last. She never lost hope. So, the logical conclusion is that the Curse of Morgoth didn't follow true with Morwen. Therefore, it was applied only partially to his family.

Posted by GoP
'Whatsoever they do shall turn against them.' Everything Túrin did turned out wrong even though he thought they were right; such as killing Beleg, and marrying Nienor.
I guess that killing Glaurung, the great worm of Morgoth, turned out bad for ME. How many people would Glaurung had killed if not for Túrin.

Posted by GoP
They shall die without hope, cursing both life and death.'Nienor and Túrin definitely did.'
The curse was not direct to Nienor and Túrin especifically. It was directed at those who Húrin loved. As I have explained before, Morwen never lost hope, even tough she had every reason to.

Posted by GoP
also goes for yourself; it doesn't say anywhere that Tolkien especially saw pride as the cause of the ruin of Húrin's family. It seems to me that Morgoth did a pretty thorough job with cursing Húrin's family.
One only has to look at the actions of the characters. They weren't puppets. All the examples that i showed proved that some of their actions were the results of their pride. Simple. Tolkien especifically states in those example that i provided. Túrin could have returned to Doriath, but it was his pride that didn't allow it. Morwen and Nienor could have remained in Doriath but didn't and it was because of their pride. Tolkien uses the word pride a lot to describe some of the actions of the family of Húrin. It is there, one just have to read it.

Posted by GoP
It quite fulfilled its purpose, and though he only cursed Húrin's family ('all whom you love') it also destroyed Húrin's own life. And, depending on which version of the story you read, also played a part in the destruction of Gondolin and Doriath.
Let's see, Húrin was a prisioner in Angband for over 28 years, and after he was released, Gondolin still stood. Yes, he really was the doom of Gondolin. Wait, how can that be? It can't be true of course.
The Doom of Doriath was because of Thingol wanting a silmaril. What did Húrin had to do with that? Nothing really. Simple.

Posted by GoP
But the second part...Did Eärendil get past the fence? Yes. He was not shut out.
Did his lamentation reach the Valar? You better believe it.
Did the Valar acknowledge this, and go and help the Noldor and their followers? Yes.

What is one of the greatest creation of the Valar? The two trees of course. The silmarils of Fëanor were:
From the Published Silmarillion
. Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda. Yet that crystal was to the Silmarils but as is the body to the Children of Ilúvatar: the house of its inner fire, that is within it and yet in all parts of it, and is its life. And the inner fire of the Silmarils Fëanor made of the blended light of the Trees of Valinor, which lives in them yet, though the Trees have long withered and shine no more. Therefore even in the darkness of the deepest treasury the Silmarils of their own radiance shone like the stars of Varda; and yet, as were they indeed living things, they rejoiced in light and received it and gave it back in hues more marvellous than before.
How did Eärendil reach Valinórë? With the aid of the Silmaril of course. What my friends of the GoP fail to mention is that Eärendil made several voyages trying to reach Valinórë and failed in all of them except the one in which he had the silmaril.
Let’s see the Doom again:
'Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains.
And so it was.
Yet Eärendil saw now no hope left in the lands of Middle-earth, and he turned again in despair and came not home, but sought back once more to Valinor with Elwing at his side. He stood now most often at the prow of Vingilot, and the Silmaril was bound upon his brow; and ever its light grew greater as they drew into the West. And the wise have said that it was by reason of the power of that holy jewel that they came in time to waters that no vessels save those of the Teleri had known; and they came to the Enchanted Isles and escaped their enchantment; and they came into the Shadowy Seas and passed their shadows, and they looked upon Tol Eressëa the Lonely Isle, but tarried not; and at the last they cast anchor in the Bay of Eldamar, and the Teleri saw the coming of that ship out of the East and they were amazed, gazing from afar upon the light of the Silmaril, and it was very great. Then Eärendil, first of living Men, landed on the immortal shores
Valinor was indeed fenced, and Eärendil was only able to reach it because of the power of the Silmaril, which contained the light of the trees that were made by Yavanna. Ahhhhhh. So using the power of the Valar they were able to overcome their fencing. Ahhhhh.

Posted by GoP
This was slightly true, but they were not dispossessed for ever. Maedhros (The elf, not the debator) and Maglor got their dirty little paws on the Silmarils. Albeit for a brief time, they did get a hold of them.
Read the Doom, Maedhros my friend, it says that they were to be dispossessed of their treasures forever.
Hehe.

They went to Mandos, and received pity and were given their bodies back. You say that all Elves are rehoused sooner or later? Good- I agree with that, it shows that the Doom was not fulfulled to completion, as all the Noldor were given their bodies back.
And say what you will about Tolkien making an 'error' in putting down Glorfindel's name twice. It happened, he wrote it down, and the proof is on paper.
The Doom of Mandos was uttered by either Námo or a powerful messenger. The Valar have a hierarchy of course. The Elder King in the world is Manwë. And what did he say:
But when all was spoken, Manwë gave judgement, and he said: 'In this matter the power of doom is given to me.
Manwë, being the Elder King and the vice regent of Ilúvatar, could over ride the decision to let the Ñoldor come back to Valinórë and to assail Morgoth.
From Ósanwe-kenta
Manwë had the authority to rule and to order the world, so far as he could
Unfortunately Manwë was not able to alter the sufferings and death that the exiled Ñoldor suffered in ME, because of the Doom of Mandos.

Posted by GoP
But they weren't just left on ME or sent to Mandos! Galadriel, Elrond and many others were 'pardoned' and allowed back to Valinor. Sure, they grey weary of the world, but they did not become shadows of regret; they left ME and went to Valinor- where they forever lived in bliss. That part of the prophecy was false!
They were pardoned by the grace of Manwë. Actually Galadriel was pardoned in the Third Age according to the RGEO. Unfortunately for the GoP this doesn’t apply because at that time the Doom was overrun by Manwë. The Doom of Námo had only a duration from the leaving of the Ñoldor from the Wastes of Araman to the arrival of Eärendil to Valinórë.

Posted by GoP
The purpose of the Doom of Mandos did not succeed, and even some of the predictions of the punishments did not come to pass entirely.
Unfortunatelty for the GoP, as I have stated before, It did succeed, and all of it’s predictions came true, this is proven with what i have posted of course.
Posted by GoP
Doom, not curse, doom.
I wonder if we should follow the word of the GoP, instead of the word of JRR Tolkien, which states that:
Much it foretold in dark words, which the Noldor understood not until the woes indeed after befell them; but all heard the curse that was uttered upon those that would not stay nor seek the doom and pardon of the Valar.
I think that I will tell JRRT that he was mistaken. Wait, naaa. Is it just me or does GoP sounds like republicans.

Niniel

09-03-2003, 09:38 AM

In all this you haven't answered my question: Can the GoS explain their exact ideas about the purpose of the Doom of Mandos? According to Baragund It was a warning to the Noldor against continuing down a rash path. In which case it failed.
From what Maedhros says I still don't understand whether he considers it a prophecy or a punishment /curse: The GoP states that how can a prophecy be lifted, the answer is that at that time, the effects of it couldn't be undone, they had already happened. Apart from this sentence being grammatically unclear I gather from it that Maedhros agrees that it was a prophecy. But later he says: It was a curse directed at the house of Fëanor and those who chose to follow him to ME. Simple. This is not that simple, because what happened to Therefore he willed that the hearts of men should seek beyond the world and should find to rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else. Doesn't this imply that the Music set the fate of the Elves, and that therefore the Doom could be no more than a prophecy? Of course Mandos knew not exactly what would happen, but he knew enough to make this prophecy.

And now some arguments against what you say about the Curse of Morgoth: I guess that killing Glaurung, the great worm of Morgoth, turned out bad for ME. How many people would Glaurung had killed if not for Túrin. Of course it was good for ME, but the Curse says 'it will turn against THEM.' And it did, because when Túrin killed Glaurung, the spell was lifted from Nienor's mind and she remembered what happened, causing her to despair and kill herself.
They weren't puppets. All the examples that i showed proved that some of their actions were the results of their pride. Simple. Exactly. SOME of their actions were the result of their pride, but many of them weren't. And you may find it convenient that Tolkien used the word 'pride' several times, thus giving you quotes to support your idea that everything that happened was the result of their pride, but Tolkien never explicitly stated that.Let's see, Húrin was a prisioner in Angband for over 28 years, and after he was released, Gondolin still stood. Yes, he really was the doom of Gondolin. Wait, how can that be? It can't be true of course.
It can be because the Curse wasn't finished when Húrin was set free; he betrayed the whereabouts of Gondolin to Morgoth. Thus destroying Turgon, someone who Húrin certainly also loved and thus part of the curse, that was directed against 'all whom you love.'The Doom of Doriath was because of Thingol wanting a silmaril. What did Húrin had to do with that? Nothing really. Simple. The problems for Thingol only really started when he wanted the Silmaril set in the Nauglamír, and refused to pay the Dwarved for their work. It was them who destroyed Doriath, and this would not have happened if Húrin hadn't brought the Nauglamír to Doriath.
And, if it was all due to their own pride, why did Morgoth use a Curse anyway? He wouldn't have had to at all, if they were going to destroy themselves.

Some things that you say about the Doom of Mandos and its end are quite unclear to me as well: Valinor was indeed fenced, and Eärendil was only able to reach it because of the power of the Silmaril, which contained the light of the trees that were made by Yavanna. Ahhhhhh. So using the power of the Valar they were able to overcome their fencing. Ahhhhh. So if they were using the powers of the Valar, then the possibility of the pity of the Valar was already present from the beginning. Otherwise it wouldn't have worked, even with a Silmaril. If the Doom was only a prophecy then this was only logical and the Valar must have known from the beginning that they would pardon the Noldor. If it was a curse, then it wasn't a very good one if the Valar themselves allowed Eärendil to end the curse that they had set. Or if they had deliberately set the curse for only a certain period of time, it was a curse with a limited scope and purpose, only to destroy the Fëanorians and those who followed them. The curse of Morgoth was in that case more complete in both purpose and result, since it didn't allow the possibility of pity and the results even exceeded the purpose, as I said before.But when all was spoken, Manwë gave judgement, and he said: 'In this matter the power of doom is given to me. As far as I can see, 'this matter' is only referring to the fate of Eärendil and Elwing, and not to the lifting of the Doom as a whole.Manwë, being the Elder King and the vice regent of Ilúvatar, could over ride the decision to let the Ñoldor come back to Valinórë and to assail Morgoth. You make it seem as if Mandos himself decided what the punishment of the Noldor would be; but as is said in the Valaquenta: and he knows all things that shall be, save only that lie still in the freedom of Ilúvatar. He only knew what was set in the Ainulindalë, he did not make it up by himself. In which case it was only a prophecy, and we have returned to what I asked before: what does the GoS think it is? A prophecy or a curse?
And one more thing: Unfortunately for the GoP this doesn’t apply because at that time the Doom was overrun by Manwë. But why then did you say earlier:The ones that survived such as Galadriel, lived with a grief of all that they had lost, and would be forever drawn to the West as per The Road Goes Ever On. Look at Gil-Galad, who was of the house of Finarfin, how he lost his family and their kingdoms. Look at all the death and suffering that they endured. That doesn't make sense... unfortunately for the GoS...

Aulë

09-03-2003, 07:54 PM

The Doom of Mandos
'Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever.
'Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death's shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.'

Originally posted by Maedhros
Let's look at the current events in the rebellion of the Ñolor:
Slaying of the Ñoldóran.
Rebellion of Fëanor in the Ring of Doom.
The Ñoldor begin to flee from Tirion.
Receive a message from Manwë to restrain their going and stay because it will not end well and the hour was evil.
Ñoldor reach Alqualondë, Teleri refuse to aid them, the Kinslaying.
Ñoldor reach the Wastes of Araman and then the Doom of Mandos.

The warning to the Ñoldor had alredy come to them by the messanger of Manwë. After the kinslaying, Námo cursed the ones that would go to ME. There were some, who were sad because of the Kinslaying and after hearing of the curse, chose to seek the pardon of the Valar. It was a curse directed at the house of Fëanor and those who chose to follow him to ME. Simple. And it was fulfilled utterly. The exiled Ñoldor who were not killed, were stricken with grief for the lost of their loves ones
As much as you try to deny the obvious, Maedhros, it appears to me that it was a threat. A warning, telling the Noldor not to travel to ME, or else.
It partly worked, in that it changed Finarfin and his people's minds. They didn't go to ME. They heeded the warning. They thought "Hey, wouldn't it be a good idea to stay here, and not have to go through all that trouble?".
The Doom worked on them. But it's purpose (to keep the Noldor in Valinor) did not come to pass, as the Sons of Fëanor and their followers ignored the warning, and went on their merry way to ME.

The Valar did not decide "Hmm, those Noldor are becoming annoying- let's give them pain and suffering until the end of time".
No, the Valar loved the Noldor. They knew what was best for them: to stay in Valinor. So they made up the Doom of Mandos to warn the Noldor to stay in Valinor.
But it did not work. It was a failure.

Originally posted by Maedhros
Valinor was indeed fenced, and Eärendil was only able to reach it because of the power of the Silmaril, which contained the light of the trees that were made by Yavanna. Ahhhhhh. So using the power of the Valar they were able to overcome their fencing. Ahhhhh.
You appear to be clutching at straws, dear Maedhros, and rather short ones at that.
The Doom does not say "and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains unless you have a Silmaril; in which case we will gladly accept you back, and take back this Doom.":rolleyes:
It says that they will not allow them back into Valinor, period.
But what happened? One of the little buggers snuck through the 'fence' and reached Valinor.

And let us not forget the eagle that Manwë sent to Fingon in pity for Maedhros' (once again, the elf, not the debater ;) ) precarious position. Fingon prayed to the Valar for pity, and Manwë sent an eagle to help carry Fingon to the bound Maedhros, and to fly them
away from Thangorodruin.
Fingon's lamentation certainly reached the Valar there...

Therefore, that part of the Doom did not come to pass.

Originally posted by Maedhros
Manwë, being the Elder King and the vice regent of Ilúvatar, could over ride the decision to let the Ñoldor come back to Valinórë and to assail Morgoth.
So Manwë over-ruled the Doom before it could come to pass entirely?
Doesn't sound as if it were completed...and therefore it mustn't have achieved it's secondary purpose of punishing the Sons of Fëanor and their followers for not heeding this threat beforehand.

So we have determined that this warning/punishment did not achieve it's purpose in that:
A/. It did not prevent the Sons of Fëanor from leaving to pursue Morgoth.
B/. It's predicted punishment did not come 100% true.
C/. It was called off by Manwë before it's resulting punishment had entirely come to pass.

Edit: Fixed a couple of vB code errors. Sorry.

Celebthôl

09-04-2003, 12:28 AM

This is the final post by the Periaur…

As of yet the GoS have still failed to explain what exactly the Doom of Mandos was, unless it was a warning, however, if it was a warning to stop the Noldor leaving Valinor, then it failed,
obviously.

First, let’s establish the intent of the Doom of Mandos. It was a warning to the Noldor against continuing down a rash path.

There was from the beginning the possibility that the Valar would pardon them, and they even helped them receive mercy (Ulmo helped Tuor)
The GoS seems to be confused about its purpose and scope, you first said that it ended after the Valar had pardoned the Noldor. You even add quotes to back this. Then you start saying how it affected Elves such as Celebrimbor, Gil-Galad. Note how these Elves came AFTER the Doom was “lifted”

Look at Gil-Galad, who was of the house of Finarfin, how he lost his family and their kingdoms. Look at all the death and suffering that they endured.

And...

Feanor and all of his sons met ruin. All of their realms were ultimately destroyed. Even later generations like Celebrimbor, son of Curufin, ultimately came to ruin in the ensnarement by Sauron over the Rings of Power and the ultimate destruction of Ost-in-Edhil.

While the curse of Morgoth didn't include the possibility of pity and it came true to the fullest possible extent, with all of Hurin’s family while the things that were mentioned in the Doom didn't all come true.

It can be because the Curse wasn't finished when Húrin was set free; he betrayed the whereabouts of Gondolin to Morgoth. Thus destroying Turgon, someone who Húrin certainly also loved and thus part of the curse, that was directed against 'all whom you love.'

As Niniel shows, the curse always came through at the best time for Morgoth and the worst time for Húrin...

I am so sorry GoP my computer was acting up and i couldnt do as good a closing as i should have done :(. . .im sorry...

Maedhros

09-04-2003, 06:23 AM

Posted by GoP
As much as you try to deny the obvious, Maedhros, it appears to me that it was a threat. A warning, telling the Noldor not to travel to ME, or else.
It appears to you. The good thing is that what appears to you and what is actually is are two different things. Notice that my friend Aulë says: telling the Ñoldor. If it was a warning then all the Ñoldor had the opportunity to come back. If you read the case that is not true. The house of Fëanor could not return to Valinórë. It is so stated, so it couldn't be a warning. I think that you are confused with something that it is said before in that chapter:
But even as the trumpet sang and Fëanor issued from the gates of Tirion a messenger came at last from Manwë, saying: 'Against the folly of Fëanor shall be set my counsel only. Go not forth! For the hour is evil, and your road leads to sorrow that ye do not foresee. No aid will the Valar lend you in this quest; but neither will they hinder you; for this ye shall know: as ye came hither freely, freely shall ye depart. But thou Fëanor Finwë's son, by thine oath art exiled. The lies of Melkor thou shalt unlearn in bitterness.
Now this is the warning and the threat. Simple.
Posted by GoP
They heeded the warning. They thought "Hey, wouldn't it be a good idea to stay here, and not have to go through all that trouble?".
The Doom worked on them. But it's purpose (to keep the Noldor in Valinor) did not come to pass, as the Sons of Fëanor and their followers ignored the warning, and went on their merry way to ME.
It is interesting to note the details of those who remained in Valinórë. The ones that remained where led by Finarfin, who his wife was of the Teleri, which the House of Fëanor had killed a lot in Alqualondë.
But in that hour Finarfin forsook the march, and turned back, being filled with grief, and with bitterness against the House of Fëanor, because of his kinship with Olwë of Alqualondë
If they had killed a bunch of my friends, I would have been filled with bitterness against them too.
Posted by GoP
The Doom does not say "and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains unless you have a Silmaril; in which case we will gladly accept you back, and take back this Doom."
It says that they will not allow them back into Valinor, period.
But what happened? One of the little buggers snuck through the 'fence' and reached Valinor.

Hehe. Ahhhh, but that is not what happened. Valinórë was indeed fenced. When Eärendil came with Elwing and Co with the Silmaril, the Valar didn't remove their enchantments. It was still fenced. It was the inherent power of the Silmaril that made them be able to surpass the enchantments set by them. Simple.
Posted by GoP
And let us not forget the eagle that Manwë sent to Fingon in pity for Maedhros' (once again, the elf, not the debater ) precarious position. Fingon prayed to the Valar for pity, and Manwë sent an eagle to help carry Fingon to the bound Maedhros, and to fly them away from Thangorodruin.
Fingon's lamentation certainly reached the Valar there...

Unfortunately for the GoP, it is not part of the Curse. Before the doom of Mandos, Manwë send a messenger to speak against Fëanor. I quoted this previously in this post. It is of course, not certain that Manwë send the eagle there, for it is not stated that he actually did. Anyway, it has no bearing on the topic because it was not part of the Doom uttered by Námo.
Posted by GoP
So Manwë over-ruled the Doom before it could come to pass entirely?
Doesn't sound as if it were completed...and therefore it mustn't have achieved it's secondary purpose of punishing the Sons of Fëanor and their followers for not heeding this threat beforehand.

I'm sorry to say this, but this doesn't makes sense. All of the Ñoldorian exiles suffered great pains. Of the House of Fëanor, only Maedhros and Maglor survived before the War of Wrath. They had lost their right to be the Kings of the Ñoldor. They had lost their treasure. They had fallen greatly from their former selves of Valinórë. Their oath drove them to do hideous things. All of the great Ñoldorian Kingdoms were destroyed: Gondolin, Nargothrond, etc. Most of the Ñoldor did indeed perish in their War against Morgoth. The ones that lived had to live with the fact that their loved ones were either dead or missing, and their great realms destroyed.
Posted by GoP
A/. It did not prevent the Sons of Fëanor from leaving to pursue Morgoth.
B/. It's predicted punishment did not come 100% true.
C/. It was called off by Manwë before it's resulting punishment had entirely come to pass.

Now this is interesting. My friend Aulë states that the Doom was called off before the resulting punishment had come to pass, hinting that it was the purpose of the Doom, yet he states in the beginning of his post that the purpose was that it was just a threat. Hmmmmm. It makes me wonder.
Look at point A: In the warning that the messenger of Manwë issued to the Ñoldor in the gates of Tirion, he states that the Fëanorians by their own oath were exiled. They HAD to go. Period. The Doom of Mandos didn't give them a chance to return.
B and C: It is interesting the phrase resulting punishment. What is the resulting punishment? That all of the Exiled Ñoldor were annihilated? That was not the purpose. We have that:
[list=1]
Most of the Ñoldor were killed as predicted by the Doom.
Fëanor house lost their right to the Kingship of the Ñoldor and their treasures.
Valinórë was forever fenced to the Ñoldor. Eärendil reached it with the help of the Silmaril. Remember, he had made several trips before. If the Valar had broken the Doom then Eärendil would have needed no Silmaril.
Technically, the Doom does not states that Valinórë would stay shut forever. It only says that the Fëanorians would be dispossessed forever and they were.
[/list=1]
Posted by GoP
As of yet the GoS have still failed to explain what exactly the Doom of Mandos was, unless it was a warning, however, if it was a warning to stop the Noldor leaving Valinor, then it failed,
obviously.
Obviously, you haven't read my posts. :( When Manwë messenger came to the gates of Tirion the Fair, he warned them not to go forth. That was the warning. The Doom of Mandos was a curse of all the perils that would strike the Ñoldor. Simple.
Posted by GoP
There was from the beginning the possibility that the Valar would pardon them, and they even helped them receive mercy (Ulmo helped Tuor)
The GoS seems to be confused about its purpose and scope, you first said that it ended after the Valar had pardoned the Noldor. You even add quotes to back this. Then you start saying how it affected Elves such as Celebrimbor, Gil-Galad. Note how these Elves came AFTER the Doom was “lifted”
Hehe. Lets talk about confusion. It is Manwë's messenger that says that the Valar will not aid the Ñoldor, not the Doom of Mandos.
I think that it was you btw, you posted that the making of the Rings of Power by Celebrimbor was an effect of the Doom of Mandos. I haven't used such references because it they would simple be plain wrong.
Remember, Gil-Galad and Celebrimbor survived the events before the War of Wrath. And Celebrimbor's love was denied to him, it was Galadriel.
Posted by GoP
While the curse of Morgoth didn't include the possibility of pity and it came true to the fullest possible extent, with all of Hurin’s family while the things that were mentioned in the Doom didn't all come true.

I like the phrase fullest possible extent. Lets look at the Curse of Morgoth:
But upon all whom you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair.
The Curse of Morgoth is more especific than that of the Ñoldor. It was directed at Húrin's family. If the intended purpose was to cause despair in them, how is it possible that Morwen endured the loss of her sons and the fact that her husband was imprisioned in Angband. Why did she endured that? Why didn't she lose hope? Why didn't she fall into despair?
Answer, because she always believe that she would be reunited with her husband.
And her heart still cheated her with hope unadmitted; her inmost thought foreboded that Húrin was not dead, and she listened for his footfall in the sleepless watches of the night
And look at what Húrin says about her:
So passed Morwen the proud and fair; and Húrin looked down at her in the twilight, and it seemed that the lines of grief and cruel hardship were smoothed away. Cold and pale and stem was her face. 'She was not conquered,' he said; and he closed her eyes, and sat on unmoving beside her as night drew down.
Posted by GoP
As Niniel shows, the curse always came through at the best time for Morgoth and the worst time for Húrin...

Best time for Morgoth? What does this means?