Spiritual Analysis of Tolkien's Fiction

[Finduilas]

Since this thread and in general the Guild activities have died for a while,I'd like to add another topic for a debate to the list.
Recently,I read an essays called "The Mythology of J. R. R. Tolkien: A Spiritual Analysis of Tolkien's Fiction" by Greg Wright.
I can't find the thread where the essay was stated but I have attached it to this post.It is a very interesting piece of writing.
However,I found a certain passage which intrigued me a lot.Here it is:
As any reader of my LOTR pages can see, I have absolutely no issue with the comments Tolkien did make regarding LOTR. The evidence bears him out. However, there are no extant Tolkien quotes of which I am aware that can be brought to bear on the issue of the scope and intent of the BODY of his work; and none of my critics have offered any help in this direction, either, except those quotes regarding his intent to specifically create a viable mythology for England (which, by the way, rather bolsters my argument than undermines it). In the absence of such quotes, however, I can only turn to the next-best authority, his own son, Christopher Tolkien. And I believe it’s clear CT agrees that there was more at work in JRR’s writing than the author himself was aware of. No one is perfectly self aware, and I think we would have to include Tolkien on that score, too. Like all of us, I think he struggled with his faith; and I think the larger body of his work reflects that struggle. Such a subject is, and has always been, a legitimate topic for scholarly debate.
Well, it is said clearly there.Why don't we start a debate concerning Tolkien's struggles and aims towards his own faith and religious understangings.

[Gil-Galad]

......hmhmhmhmm interesting........give us some more time to think about it...:rolleyes:

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Finduilas
Since this thread and in general the Guild activities have died for a while,I'd like to add another topic for a debate to the list.
Recently,I read an essays called "The Mythology of J. R. R. Tolkien: A Spiritual Analysis of Tolkien's Fiction" by Greg Wright.
I can't find the thread where the essay was stated but I have attached it to this post.It is a very interesting piece of writing.
However,I found a certain passage which intrigued me a lot.Here it is:

Well, it is said clearly there.Why don't we start a debate concerning Tolkien's struggles and aims towards his own faith and religious understangings.
I don't believe that Tolkien had any problem with his Catholicism. Furthermore, from all of his writings, he was of the belief that myth conveyed deep and essential truths within their obviously fictional framework and therefore, the creation of myth was well within the perview of a Christian.

If Tolkien had a problem, it was with the post-Vatican II Catholic Church - as did a whole lot of Roman Catholics besides him. But there was never any question in his mind about the tenets of his faith inparticular or of Christianity in general and there simply was no way that his "subcreation" was an expression of some sort of heretical viewpoint of his own. True, from time to time he felt a certain "strain" between his attempt at "creation" and his faith, but if had been forced to choose between the two (and thank God he wasn't!), there can be no doubt which one he would have chosen.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Tolkien believed that his mother had been "martyred" for her faith and her efforts to raise her sons in the Catholic Church. She had been virtually "disowned" by both her own and her late husband's families and cast adrift with almost no resources to make a way for herself and her boys. Remember, this was a time when there was no "free" education and no welfare system of any kind in place. People were know to actually starve to death for lack of sufficient funds to buy food. Tolkien believed that the breakdown in his mother's health which led to her early death was the result of her struggle to survive and provide for her children in the face of her relations' implacable estrangement.

Tolkien never forgot his mother's sacrifice and his devotion to his Church and his Christian faith was unwavering for that reason among many. Sometimes he agonized over his love for his "subcreation" and the possibility that he was straying from his chosen Creed, but he was able to persuade himself that his work constituted another facet of man held in common with God - the ability to create. Also, his understanding that through myth, man was able to behold and convey eternal Truths was one of the elements in his argument that led to the eventual conversion of C. S. Lewis.

Fortunately, Tolkien never had to make a choice between the two great loves in his life. God was kind in allowing him to partake of both until the end of his days and it cannot be considered a poor reward for Tolkien's faithful devotion.

[Finduilas]

Now, I don't believe that it is appropriate to start a religious discussion or debate right NOW when the whole rush with the Religious Guild has died out.
Therefore, and keping in mind the upcoming celebration...I'm thinking of starting a Guild discussion on the purposes of such places(concern the forum as whole too), the way they used to e and the way they are now.
What I mean is that in Tolkien's times there weren't such forums...and Guilds not in the Internet because there was no Internet. There were clubs-tea, books, family,etc. Many,many nice and comfortable cafes where you can sit have a pint and discuss politics, literature, sports, everything. O, sweet past, our past!
My idea is to compare these two means of gatherings and discuss what we win from the one and miss from the other. Also what would probably Tolkien prefer..the intimate atmosphere of a smoky bar or the casuality of the Home Entertainment.

Opinions?

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Finduilas
Now, I don't believe that it is appropriate to start a religious discussion or debate right NOW when the whole rush with the Religious Guild has died out.
Therefore, and keping in mind the upcoming celebration...I'm thinking of starting a Guild discussion on the purposes of such places(concern the forum as whole too), the way they used to e and the way they are now.
What I mean is that in Tolkien's times there weren't such forums...and Guilds not in the Internet because there was no Internet. There were clubs-tea, books, family,etc. Many,many nice and comfortable cafes where you can sit have a pint and discuss politics, literature, sports, everything. O, sweet past, our past!
My idea is to compare these two means of gatherings and discuss what we win from the one and miss from the other. Also what would probably Tolkien prefer..the intimate atmosphere of a smoky bar or the casuality of the Home Entertainment.

Opinions?
Well, certainly the type of gatherings that encouraged the expression of ideas and the exchange of information was fairly limited by such things as proximity (distance) and the opportunity to meet people with similar interests. Tolkien, of course, had his fellow academicians but then the milieu in which he mixed was famous for that kind of opportunity. On the other hand, the rest of the population might meet people with similar interests through clubs and other associations, but again it was very limited. Not too many people had the leisure to indulge in such groups unless they were financially well off. Poorer people simply worked too hard and too long to do much more than have their Saturday half-holiday and Sunday with its religious devotions.

Today we have boundless opportunities to "meet" and have discourse with people who have similar interests without every leaving our homes. This is a blessing for those who are physically unable to travel, for the young who wouldn't be permitted to attend evening meetings with strangers, for mother with small children etc. I wonder if perhaps this type of "technology" would not have appealed to Tolkien since it opens up so much that would not have been available to scholars unless they could travel to those places where the desired information was ensconced.

[Zale]

I seem to remember reading in one of Tolkien's letters (in the preface to the Silmarillion, I believe) that the Elves, created by Eru, sub-create in turn. The Valar, created also by Illuvatar, sub-create: the Two Trees, mainly, but also all of the flora & fauna of Arda (apart from the Eldar & the Atani). Sub-creation is a major theme in Tolkien's work.
It strikes me that Tolkien, being a firm Christian, would see himself as having been created by God. He then sub-creates in turn (Middle-Earth), thus fulfilling his own theme, and spreading it by means of the book.

[Eledhwen]

Originally posted by Finduilas
What I mean is that in Tolkien's times there weren't such forums...and Guilds not in the Internet because there was no Internet. There were clubs-tea, books, family,etc. Many,many nice and comfortable cafes where you can sit have a pint and discuss politics, literature, sports, everything. O, sweet past, our past!
My idea is to compare these two means of gatherings and discuss what we win from the one and miss from the other. Also what would probably Tolkien prefer..the intimate atmosphere of a smoky bar or the casuality of the Home Entertainment.

Opinions? You could call it "The Rabbit Room" (the name of the parlour in the Eagle and Child where the Inklings met). The Eagle and Child is still a quiet juke-box-free pub, where the sound of conversation mingles with the chink of glass and greetings of friends. The Rabbit Room is sadly no longer a back parlour (though care has been taken to retain its character in its three remaining walls), but is now a recess in the route through to the extension to the back of the pub where restaurant tables have been installed on the former pony yard (At least it has brought the loos indoors :) ), though other small parlours still exist to left and right of the entrance door.

Pubs like this are getting rarer (though my own town has a few where the blasterbox does not yet reign), and a campaign on a par with the one for Real Ale (CAMRA) should be started to bring them back.

As for Greg Wright (whose opinions on Tolkien's spirituality I value) - he has now written a book "Tolkien in Perspective" to be released in September. You can find out more on www.hollywoodjesus.com.

[Eledhwen]

Greg Wright kindly sent me his book to review, and I have posted a review in the Related Works section on this Forum. One thing I learned from the book was a better understanding of Catholic Christianity - all those saints and Mary and transsubstantiation and so on. I could never understand why they bothered. Greg is an evangelical who has listened to Catholics and asked them questions until he understood Catholic thought better, and then he put it in his book so we could understand Tolkien's thought better. One Catholic pointed out the similarity between the flow of the Silmarillion and that of Catholic history. I would never have spotted that.