Heaven/Paradise: Does it exist?

[Ancalagon]

Does Heaven/Paradise actually exist or is it a cunning sales pitch for religions to utilise in the search for converts?

[Nóm]

I don't know the history of religions so I can't give much of an answer.

I'm sure this is a thing people can and do use to take advantage of others or win them over, but I do not think the belief was created for that purpose, but rather it is a hope that many people would come up with independantly of religion or others. I do believe people are naturally inclined to hope for something great beyond death. I think this is the cause of the beliefs in heaven.

So I would answer: It doesn't have to be one or the other. It might exist, but the belief in it must surely be played upon for bad purposes. If it was not natural for people to tend to believe in heaven, then why would the scam be so successful? Of course a natural belief or hope in heaven does not mean that heaven exists.

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
Does Heaven/Paradise actually exist or is it a cunning sales pitch for religions to utilise in the search for converts?
We will never know until our life is over, will we? Our belief in heaven and hell definitely precedes our society. To say that the preaching and hell and fire and brimstone by tele-vangelists is to only win converts is not any indication of whether it exists or not but the abuse of its existence.The 'existence' of heaven and hell or the thought of it existed was there before that preacher was even born and is outside his own realm of whether he believes it exists or not, or whether he can convince someone else that it does exist.

There is no tangible proof for its existence. It is only by faith and the internal desire for meaning of life that impresses us that there is more to what our life entails then to exist and then die out. The fact that human beings have created religion for millenia indicates that there is something outside of our existence impressing our hearts and minds that there IS something outside of our existence.

[Eliot]

I will never actually know until I die, but as a Christian, I believe I'll end up in Heaven after death (which really isn't death. It's the beginning of new life).

[Beorn]

Originally posted by Thorin
We will never know until our life is over, will we? Our belief in heaven and hell definitely precedes our society. To say that the preaching and hell and fire and brimstone by tele-vangelists is to only win converts is not any indication of whether it exists or not but the abuse of its existence.The 'existence' of heaven and hell or the thought of it existed was there before that preacher was even born and is outside his own realm of whether he believes it exists or not, or whether he can convince someone else that it does exist.

There is no tangible proof for its existence. It is only by faith and the internal desire for meaning of life that impresses us that there is more to what our life entails then to exist and then die out. The fact that human beings have created religion for millenia indicates that there is something outside of our existence impressing our hearts and minds that there IS something outside of our existence.

I agree with much of this post, but not the last sentence. It could only be that people are constantly asking, "Why?". People always want to know, and even more than that, they want to know more than what they should. So, perhaps religon and faith is just an answer to "Why do I exist?". People couldn't comprehend how a baby formed in the uterus, where humans came from, and why there were stars and planets above.

Religion came before modern science, did it not?

[Arvedui]

I don't know if it exists or not, but personally, I believe that it does. I don't applaud the idea of 'heaven,' but more like the 'paradise' version.
Why? Because it is hard for me to accept that these few years that each and every human exists on earth is all there is.
I personally believe that we came into being by a higher cause, and not that we emerged just from some sort of organic 'soup' or whatever. As a consequense of that I do not believe that the most advanced living being is limited to remain a being for such a short duration of time.
But: I might very well be wrong, and since I don't know anything I believe it is why it is called faith.

[Ciryaher]

I believe that there is something better/further than this lifetime.

I agree with much of this post, but not the last sentence. It could only be that people are constantly asking, "Why?". People always want to know, and even more than that, they want to know more than what they should. So, perhaps religon and faith is just an answer to "Why do I exist?". People couldn't comprehend how a baby formed in the uterus, where humans came from, and why there were stars and planets above.

Human nature is to question and seek answers. This sets us apart from all other species in existence on Earth: Homo sapiens alone posess the inclination towards technological advance. Technology is the use of knowlege, to pursue technology is to pursue knowledge. Throughout all the world's cultures and all the world's religions, advance has never come to a halt. People say that religion (particularly Christianity) impairs progress in science.

Was Galileo not Catholic? Was Gregor Mendel (father of genetics) not a Monk? The printing press, which revolutionized mankind's ability to proliferate knowledge, was used to print Bibles so that more people could read it for themselves. Other religions have countless contributions as well, such as the Chinese whose gunpowder was first used in religious festivals (and was later used by a Monk to create the modern gun).

Religion has also posed moral questions to society (Why is it wrong to kill? How should we treat others?) as well as setting down guidelines for living (most people who don't work on weekends can accredit that to the Sabbath, a Jewish/Christian tradition). Religion also tells us what to expect in our afterlife, the general message being that "If you're good, you'll go to a good place...if you're bad, you'll go to a bad place".

Anyways, I'm on a long spiel. I believe that there is a better (or worse, for some) place beyond this lifetime, be it a heaven or paradise or nirvana of some sort.

[Valdarmyr]

Thank you, Ancalagon and all...this is a worthy thread! I'll have to stick my head in this part of the Forum more often.

While I believe there is a wonderful heavenly place (probably in a "higher" dimension) to go to when the body finally passes away, even our Heavenly Home, I try to practice the experience of bringing heaven into my daily circumstances. After all, why wait, if I can experience something of the nature of heaven by doing what I can to bring it here and now? I think it kind of fits with that sentence from Luke 17:21, "...Behold, the kingdom of God is within you." All that has to be done is to give it expression, something each of us can do, if we will. It can be something as simple as smiling at, or saying something uplifting to, someone in the supermarket or at the office or at school; sometimes you can tell if a person could use someone lifting their spirits a bit. There are so many ways to be kind to other people and help them, just by expressing love, truth, even humor.

So, I would answer Ancalagon's question by saying, yes, Heaven/Paradise actually exists, and also, yes, I think some religions do promote it to look for converts. About the actual place, heaven, I agree with Thorin, who said, "We will never know until our life is over." And I agree in a way with Sauron, who said ending up in Heaven after death "really isn't death. It's the beginning of new life." I believe in reincarnation...after all, I think we've got our spiritual work cut out for us here on earth!

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
Does Heaven/Paradise actually exist or is it a cunning sales pitch for religions to utilise in the search for converts?

Yes i believe there is heaven, but i dont believe you have to be religious int anyway to get into it, i believe all people go there when they die.

[Eledhwen]

If there isn't an afterlife, why do we suffer the existential dichotomy? Why is it that we reason? What's the point of posterity if everything is left to beings as short-lived as ourselves with no further use other than as fertiliser for the next occupants, who will also only survive a few decades, and so on...?

I cannot rationalise the the fact of there being sentient life if it ceases to exist after three score years and ten, and that's before I start to look at the Bible.

As a Christian, I believe that my true citizenship is not of this world or any nation herein, but in the place that Jesus has prepared for me. I don't know a lot about it, but I am confident that I will not be disappointed.

[Beorn]

Originally posted by Ciryaher
Human nature is to question and seek answers. This sets us apart from all other species in existence on Earth: Homo sapiens alone posess the inclination towards technological advance. Technology is the use of knowlege, to pursue technology is to pursue knowledge. Throughout all the world's cultures and all the world's religions, advance has never come to a halt. People say that religion (particularly Christianity) impairs progress in science.

Was Galileo not Catholic? Was Gregor Mendel (father of genetics) not a Monk? The printing press, which revolutionized mankind's ability to proliferate knowledge, was used to print Bibles so that more people could read it for themselves. Other religions have countless contributions as well, such as the Chinese whose gunpowder was first used in religious festivals (and was later used by a Monk to create the modern gun).


Religion has definitely affected technology, but there is no way to say that religion is based in truth.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Beorn
Religion has definitely affected technology, but there is no way to say that religion is based in truth.

Hmmm... This sentence spurred a lot of reflections in my mind. Such as the Pilatean "What is truth?", and how you could substitute "science" for "religion" in the sentence without any noticeable difference.

Interesting.

As for Ancalagon's question, I think that religions definitely use Heaven as a way to attract converts; why wouldn't they? After all, religious people believe in Heaven. They want to bring as many people as possible to this Heaven. They want to spread the good news.

The two most important existential (as opposed to logical or historical) reasons for a conversion are probably the longing for Heaven and the desire for forgiveness of sins. We long for Heaven; this longing is weird enough in itself, if we assume a purely materialist stance, to give us pause.

As for the big question -- is there really a Heaven? We have no natural data. We either accept revelation or we don't; if we do, there is no doubt about it; if we don't, all we have is doubt.

[Turin]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
Yes i believe there is heaven, but i dont believe you have to be religious int anyway to get into it, i believe all people go there when they die.

So people like Hitler and Sadam will go to heaven? And if you say that good people go to heaven, how do you measure good? If you don't kill people?
Please explain your logic. I believe there is a heaven but you have to believe in God to go there.

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by Turin
So people like Hitler and Sadam will go to heaven? And if you say that good people go to heaven, how do you measure good? If you don't kill people?
Please explain you logic.

Yes they are, as i dont believe that God created us just to send us to Hell just because we exercise our free will in an "undesierable" way.

Also, the day you die is the best day of your life, you go to God and heaven (paradise) so how can sending 7 million people to paradise be at all bad?

[Turin]

So your saying that if you kill people your sending them to heaven and that way you will go to heaven?

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by Turin
So your saying that if you kill people your sending them to heaven and that way you will go to heaven?

No, im saying that it cant be a bad thing to send so many people to paradise. Or do you object to that statement?

[Turin]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
so how can sending 7 million people to paradise be at all bad?

What are you reffering to in this statement?

[Celebthôl]

Hitler killing 7 million Jews and other people in the concentration camps.

[Turin]

So your saying its a good thing to kill them and send them to heaven?

[Celebthôl]

No, im asking you, "Is it a bad thing to send 7 million people to paradise?"

[Elendil3119]

Do you want to die, Thôl? No? Why not? Do you think the 7 million Jews wanted to die?

[Celebthôl]

I wouldnt mind if i die or if i live, i do not fear it, i doubt they did either, but you still havent answered the question...

[Eriol]

Let's give a big applause to Celebthôl, the great champion of free will, and his praise of the murder of 7 million people!

Being "murder", and not "suicide", I suspect that we may safely assume those guys did not want to die. But Hitler, luckily enough, was there to show them the true meaning of free will! Free will means killing and dying!

We wonders, yes, we wonders, why is Thôl still alive... yes, we wonders. Why does he not kill himself? Or perhaps the closest beggar, poor guy, he suffers so much, let's give him a taste of free will and kill him, yes, precious?

;)

Thôl, don't you think you should take this discussion to our nice little thread? We are taking Ancalagon's nice thread on a direction that is probably not what he had in mind.

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by Eriol
Let's give a big applause to Celebthôl, the great champion of free will, and his praise of the murder of 7 million people!

Being "murder", and not "suicide", I suspect that we may safely assume those guys did not want to die. But Hitler, luckily enough, was there to show them the true meaning of free will! Free will means killing and dying!

We wonders, yes, we wonders, why is Thôl still alive... yes, we wonders. Why does he not kill himself? Or perhaps the closest beggar, poor guy, he suffers so much, let's give him a taste of free will and kill him, yes, precious?

;)

Thôl, don't you think you should take this discussion to our nice little thread? We are taking Ancalagon's nice thread on a direction that is probably not what he had in mind.

Hmmm, I cant help but feel disparaged, and I know you know that there is more to it than that :rolleyes:

And I was asked about why I thought everyone goes to heaven, I just answered...


Im still awaiting for an answer....

[Elendil3119]

I suppose you want an answer to this question:
Originally posted by Celebthôl
No, im asking you, "Is it a bad thing to send 7 million people to paradise?"
According to your beliefs, no. :rolleyes: According to mine, only those who believe in God will go to Heaven.

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by Elendil3119
According to your beliefs, no. :rolleyes: According to mine, only those who believe in God will go to Heaven.

Hence why i dont believe in your belief, why must we believe in God? (I do just not your God)

[Eriol]

No, Elendil, it is bad even according to his beliefs. But he does not see that his beliefs are self-contradictory. Hence the mention of "champion of free will". His beliefs are very much a championing of free will, without any restraints, not even God's; and therefore, obviously he SHOULD be opposed to murder, as the ultimate curbing of free will.

I just said more about it in the Skeptic's thread.

[Turin]

I agree with Elendil and Eriol, and I'm not going to argue anymore, some people are just hopeless:rolleyes:.

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by Eriol
No, Elendil, it is bad even according to his beliefs. But he does not see that his beliefs are self-contradictory. Hence the mention of "champion of free will". His beliefs are very much a championing of free will, without any restraints, not even God's; and therefore, obviously he SHOULD be opposed to murder, as the ultimate curbing of free will.

I just said more about it in the Skeptic's thread.


Do you really think that the 7 million people in paradise hate Hitler? I dont, it is only the earthly people that think it was a bad thing, if you think it is so bad, proove that it is!

And yeah i posted there also ;)

[Ancalagon]

Ok guys, lets try and get some perspective back in here and not denegrate into questions of such a dire and frankly unfortunate nature.

Heaven/Paradise.

Personally, I beleive in God, at least a central spiritual figure to whom I would hope the souls of all men/women will one day meet in some ethereal realm. I do not fully comprehend what this will mean for the soul, because it simply cannot be quantified. There is no guide book to the afterlife, no experiences or memoirs of any who have seen heaven or paradise and returned to inform the living. I do not put my faith in the writings of either the bible or qu'ran or any other religious textbook, nor do I discount the descriptions of the visionary's who scribed them. Heaven or paradise is as enigmatic as hell, both in the promise of its peacefulness and joyousness to the wandering spirit as it is to the misery and pain inflicted upon the wrongdoer.

It is my belief that God, whoever he/she may be, has somewhere set aside for the afterlife. It is not anything we can comprehend, but nor is it anything that hinges solely upon knowing Christ or following the teachings of any prophet. For if someone follows a life that is good, full of trial and trouble and yet maintains hope in the face of adversity, then that person will have earned their place by the side of their creator. Whether they be Aboriginal, American Indian, Christian, Muslim, Jewish or Budhist to name but a few, the creed is irrelevant, the actions and the heart are the key to reaching that perfect realm

[Turin]

Wow, I have no idea what you just said.:confused:

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by Turin
Wow, I have no idea what you just said.:confused:

He is saying in short, if you are a good person deep down etc regardless off religion you will go to heaven when you die.

[Eledhwen]

Has anyone here read CS Lewis' "The Great Divorce"? It's fictional, and has an interesting slant on the heaven/hell debate (and a cop-out ending). Also CS Lewis' last Narnia book "The Last Battle" has a Tash-worshipping soldier admitted to heaven because of where his heart was.

I'm not a universalist, but I cannot believe that the Lord who is "gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and rich in mercy and love" (several places in the Bible) would bar from heaven those who spent their lives ignorant of his saving grace, or who had not understood it, but who fed the hungry, visited the imprisoned, clothed the naked, etc., not so they could be thought well of or to think better of themselves, but because the need was there. It is possible to imitate Christ without having heard of him.

[Beleg]

I believe in afterlife, consequently in the concept of Heaven and Hell.
For me this belief is as clear as a rock and nothing, absolutely nothing can deter this belief of mine. I also belief that all those people, nonwithstanding religion, who symbolize good, do good, go by the right sence will, regardless of creed, religion and color would go to heaven.
Admittance to heaven is not restricted to the people of any particular belief.

[Turin]

I know I said I wasn't going to argue anymore but I couln't resist, Theres only one God and he made heaven, so if you don't beleive in him or if you believe in another God then why should he let you into heaven? If you don't truly believe and love him then your not going to heaven.

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by Turin
I know I said I wasn't going to argue anymore but I couln't resist, Theres only one God and he made heaven, so if you don't beleive in him or if you believe in another God then why should he let you into heaven? If you don't truly believe and love him then your not going to heaven.

Well he made you to have free will to make your life what you want, not so you follow him based on a book written by a man.
What would be the use in creating something and blessing it with free will only to make it follow what you tell it or else it goes to hell?

[Eriol]

Ok, here comes a piece of Christianity in a thread who was supposed to be for all religions. I hope other Christians here can reinforce what I'll say here -- or tell me that I'm wrong, if they think I am. It was prompted by Turin's last post.

God loves every human being, and wants ALL of us in Heaven. This is not "Celebthôlism"; it does not mean that he will force all of us, even those who don't want to go to Heaven. It is his wish, but he lets us choose.

Now, we, mere humans, can't say that anyone, Christian or not, is saved. To go to Heaven means to accept God; it is not "a prize" for accepting God, but it is the act itself. If you accept God, Heaven comes automatically.

This is the point, I believe, of the story of the Tash-worshipping soldier. Belief in God is not a matter of words, or even a matter of the mind -- it is a matter of the heart. An atheist may believe in God with much more force and sincerity than a church-going Christian.

I believe this is orthodox Christian teaching on the matter. I know that it is very easily misrepresented, because of the claims of both Christ and the Catholic Church that there is "no salvation outisde the Church" and that "no one comes to the Father except through me". But these claims are not denied at all by the opinion I stated above. I can believe, easily, that every person in Heaven is there because of the efforts of the Catholic Church, and through Christ; even Native Americans, Aborigines, etc. etc, who never heard of Christ. For it is a matter of the heart. It is a very hard-to-discuss subject, because of the mystical sense of the word "Church", as the Body of Christ, as well as (I suspect) the power of prayer.

All we know (for sure) about this matter are the words of Christ. And we know that God wants every one of his lambs there; Christ said it. So that "All non-Christians are doomed" is simply... out-of-character for God.

I hope Thorin can give his opinion about that; see, Thorin, a nice birthday gift for you to chew on :D.

[Eliot]

Originally posted by Turin
I know I said I wasn't going to argue anymore but I couln't resist, Theres only one God and he made heaven, so if you don't beleive in him or if you believe in another God then why should he let you into heaven? If you don't truly believe and love him then your not going to heaven.

I don't mean to be rude or anything Turin, but everybody believes that. They just belong to different religions. A Muslim would say the same thing you just said. I'm just saying that whatever you say about Christianity won't change peoples beliefs....unfortunately.

I've tried many times on this forum to convince people that they're blind spiritually, but it doesn't work. People think we're blind spiritually.

[Turin]

Yeah I know I can't change anyone but I had to post that.

[Ancalagon]

I always wonder about the Christian concept of entry to heaven through Christ alone! What then happened to all souls on Earth that had not heard the teachings of the bible, who did not know anything about the fact that there was apparently only God, apparently the God of Judiasm from which Christian and Islamic religions developed? Surely all those cultures and people, across the wide expanse of the world were not condemned to hell by God because they knew nothing of the Old Testament teachings or anything else about the rules of 'entry to heaven'?

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by Sauron
I've tried many times on this forum to convince people that they're blind spiritually, but it doesn't work. People think we're blind spiritually.

That is a major reason as to why i dont like religion.

What if you are all blind?

What if there is no such thing as religion and things? What if they are all made up?

There is no way to proove anything, so the best we can do is get on with it...

[Eliot]

Well, if the Bible is wrong Celeb, the why are all the Biblical Prophet's prophecies true? Also, there's a peace only God can give to people when you're going through hard times, that's like none other.

[Eliot]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
I always wonder about the Christian concept of entry to heaven through Christ alone! What then happened to all souls on Earth that had not heard the teachings of the bible, who did not know anything about the fact that there was apparently only God, apparently the God of Judiasm from which Christian and Islamic religions developed? Surely all those cultures and people, across the wide expanse of the world were not condemned to hell by God because they knew nothing of the Old Testament teachings or anything else about the rules of 'entry to heaven'?

I'm not sure what happens to those folks. Those people are of course responsible for their own sin, so they deserve Hell (we all do, just so you know). Their ancestors are held accountable for rejecting God after the Tower of Babel. It's also a command of Christ to preach the word throughout the whole Earth. So, at times, it's the Christian's fault that many people go to Hell, unfortunately.

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
I always wonder about the Christian concept of entry to heaven through Christ alone! What then happened to all souls on Earth that had not heard the teachings of the bible, who did not know anything about the fact that there was apparently only God, apparently the God of Judiasm from which Christian and Islamic religions developed? Surely all those cultures and people, across the wide expanse of the world were not condemned to hell by God because they knew nothing of the Old Testament teachings or anything else about the rules of 'entry to heaven'?

I don't think these guys are all damned. Christ is not only, and not even mainly, the Jesus who walked in Palestine. He is the Logos, the Word of God. Through Him everything was created, and in Him is the image of the universe itself.

Add to this that God does not "condemn" anyone to Hell; that Hell is a choice we make in our lives, to reject God, to reject Christ (and I don't mean specifically the human Jesus, I mean the divine Logos), and you see that the Christian doctrine is not so absurd as it is usually described. It means this, approximately:

1: Loving God does not "allow" you to get to Heaven, as if Heaven were a sort of prize; loving God is Heaven itself;

2: You can only love God if you know him; and this does not (necessarily) mean conscious belief, but most of all it means acknowledging Goodness (the moral law), Truth, and Beauty -- these things proceed from God;

3: You can't know these things except through Christ, the Divine Logos, in whom and by whom they were created;

The conclusion is: "No one comes to the Father except through Christ". But it does not exclude non-Christians. The story of the Tash-worshipper is better than all of my words to explain it, for it shows it in action.

[Eledhwen]

When Jesus said "No-one comes to the Father except through me" he was showing that he had the only veto. It doesn't mean that everyone who has said "The Jesus Prayer" gets into heaven (I expect some have said it with little or no sincerity as a kind of insurance policy), and it doesn't mean that everyone who hasn't heard of Jesus is excluded. It means that Jesus does the sorting. Sheep and Goats. The criteria of who is a sheep and who is a goat are clearly stated in the Bible. It also says that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord!" will enter the kingdom of heaven, and that faith without works is dead (a bit like believing that the boat that will take you to your destination will not sink, and then not getting into it). From all these it is clear that the heart is what is looked at. Good works are often done for selfish reasons, and so by themselves are no guarantee. Faith without works, in my opinion, doesn't really exist, because faith is belief in action. Finally, James said "He who knows to do good and does not do it, it is sin." This, I believe, includes refusing Jesus whilst knowing that He is "The way, the truth and life" because you enjoy the stuff he disapproves of too much.

Jesus decides who is in and who is out, and there's no formula anyone can follow other than to have his heart, dynamising us into performing his deeds. Some have chosen His ways without every having heard of Him. Does that mean they're out? No - because He's heard of them.

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by Sauron
so they deserve Hell (we all do, just so you know).

Why exactly?!
What have we all done to deserve hell?
Why does God just not let us going into heaven freely like any normal all loving God should?

[Eliot]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
Why exactly?!
What have we all done to deserve hell?
Why does God just not let us going into heaven freely like any normal all loving God should?

We're born sinners, that's why. We're born sinners because Adam & Eve sinned, and they're our ancestors, so the punishment applies to every human being.

Regarding your last question: We can, as long as we trust his son, Jesus Christ, as our personal Savior to save us from our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Otherwise, we get our punishment: eternity in Hell. That's the way it works.

[Eriol]

Thôl, the Christian Heaven is the love of God. It is not a prize, or an award for good merit. It IS love; it IS loving God.

Why would God not force us to love Him, you ask? Well, if you know anything about love, you know that it does not work like that. God loves us; He knows that the best thing for us is to love Him (i.e., Heaven); He told this message to us by many different channels. If we refuse to listen, He won't force us. Because Love can't be forced.

If you love God, you will be in Heaven; if you hate Him, you won't. It's as simple as that.

While you (personally) believe that you are the master of the universe and can change what is good or evil at your whim, you are effectively ignoring God's message, and hating the messenger. Don't blame God for that. The hate is yours alone.

[Celebthôl]

But God knows we all love him, whether we say it or not, when we die we see that we love him, for God is love, he is the things we love, he is everything. And he loves all of us regardless.

[Eledhwen]

Thol says: "he is the things we love, he is everything."

I have to disagree. All the corruption, hate, vile thoughts and acts are the result of the absence of God - it's what happens when His standards are rejected. There are people who love to hurt, torture, kill, maim and destroy. God is not in that.

[Celebthôl]

He is all that, it is just people exercizing their free will in undesierable ways.

[Eliot]

You still haven't answered my question Celeb....

[Eriol]

Celebthôl is following a contradictory doctrine nowadays, folks. Let's not get too hard on him. At least he is thinking about it.

He hides behind "undesirable", as if this was not another way to say bad -- i.e., hateful to God. According to his beliefs, to create a Silmaril is just as good as creating the race of Orcs. And this shows how these beliefs are contradictory.

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by Eliot
We're born sinners, that's why. We're born sinners because Adam & Eve sinned, and they're our ancestors, so the punishment applies to every human being.

Regarding your last question: We can, as long as we trust his son, Jesus Christ, as our personal Savior to save us from our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Otherwise, we get our punishment: eternity in Hell. That's the way it works.

Yeah coz im going to accept blame for the actions of some jerks eating some apple!

Im not putting all my trust in that, if it was like that then God would not allow all the other religions to confuse people, its crazy. Id rather just live my life in a good way and see what happens at the end.

[Ancalagon]

Nor should you be persecuted for doing so Celeb, of all people, Christians should understand that. Then again, standing on the soapbox and condemning others to eternal damnation is very much the ethos of those who fingerpoint. 'Do not attempt to remove the speck of dust from the eye of another until you remove the plank in your own', or something to that effect a carpenter once said!

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
Nor should you be persecuted for doing so Celeb, of all people, Christians should understand that.

Apparently some dont :rolleyes: :(

[Eriol]

There is one big guy "persecuting" you, Thôl, and not to condemn you, but to save you from your errors. This Big Guy once called Himself "The Truth".

Do you want to listen to him? That's all He asks. If you prefer to remain mired in error, in contradiction, in lack of logic, I can't do anything; but trust me, He can :). He will "persecute" you for all of your life. Divine Harassment, you may call it. For you are right in this: God loves all. He wants all saved, even those who adamantly refuse to look at Him. Of course, he will not force anyone, for love does not work like that; but he still wants all saved.

If you, in the end, choose Darkness and Error over Light and Truth, don't blame Truth.

If this is seen by you and others as fingerpointing and "condemning", so be it. It's not I, or Eliot/Sauron, who is doing the condemning; it is not even God who is doing it. It is you, Thôl, by choosing Darkness. Don't blame the messenger.

Ancalagon, you were wondering about the concept of the Christian Heaven and how it "excludes" heathens. The Christians here have offered some explanations for that -- I, personally, believe that you can love God without knowing Him consciously.

What do you think of that?

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by Eriol
There is one big guy "persecuting" you, Thôl, and not to condemn you, but to save you from your errors. This Big Guy once called Himself "The Truth".

Do you want to listen to him? That's all He asks. If you prefer to remain mired in error, in contradiction, in lack of logic, I can't do anything; but trust me, He can :). He will "persecute" you for all of your life. Divine Harassment, you may call it. For you are right in this: God loves all. He wants all saved, even those who adamantly refuse to look at Him. Of course, he will not force anyone, for love does not work like that; but he still wants all saved.

If you, in the end, choose Darkness and Error over Light and Truth, don't blame Truth.

If this is seen by you and others as fingerpointing and "condemning", so be it. It's not I, or Eliot/Sauron, who is doing the condemning; it is not even God who is doing it. It is you, Thôl, by choosing Darkness. Don't blame the messenger.


As I said before, if God prooves to me without a shadow of doubt that Christianity is the right religion etc, i will follow it and i will be the best christian in the world, but just because of the bible i wont believe it, all religions have scriptures, all of you could be getting led up the garden path. Id rather just do what i said until i get undeniable proof...

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
As I said before, if God prooves to me without a shadow of doubt that Christianity is the right religion etc, i will follow it and i will be the best christian in the world, but just because of the bible i wont believe it, all religions have scriptures, all of you could be getting led up the garden path. Id rather just do what i said until i get undeniable proof...

I know. You'll get undeniable proof in due time, don't worry.

Meanwhile, you have received undeniable proof that your current beliefs are wrong. Keep thinking about them.

:)

[Eledhwen]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
all religions have scriptures, The leader of the Asian Christian Alliance in the UK is a Kenyan Asian who was educated under the rules of the British 1944 Education Act, which compelled the teaching of Christianity. He was a Hindu, and searched the Hindu scriptures so that he could contradict his teacher. Instead he found Jesus (in the Hindu scriptures) and now relies on the Bible.

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by Eledhwen
The leader of the Asian Christian Alliance in the UK is a Kenyan Asian who was educated under the rules of the British 1944 Education Act, which compelled the teaching of Christianity. He was a Hindu, and searched the Hindu scriptures so that he could contradict his teacher. Instead he found Jesus (in the Hindu scriptures) and now relies on the Bible.

But that is one out of many. . .

If they can all be found to contradict including the bible, what would you do then?

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
But that is one out of many. . .

If they can all be found to contradict including the bible, what would you do then?

I would cease to be a Christian. I said this to you already. If you can find one contradiction in Christianity, I will be the first to leave the boat.

I don't think it will be easy :). And please note that I am very rigorous when thinking about contradictions. It was only after satisfying myself on this point that I became a Christian.

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by Eriol
I would cease to be a Christian. I said this to you already. If you can find one contradiction in Christianity, I will be the first to leave the boat.

I don't think it will be easy :). And please note that I am very rigorous when thinking about contradictions. It was only after satisfying myself on this point that I became a Christian.

Hehe, yes i know you said it :)

Okay, i'll re-phrase it:

"What would the world do if all religious scripts contradicted?"

[Eliot]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
As I said before, if God prooves to me without a shadow of doubt that Christianity is the right religion etc, i will follow it and i will be the best christian in the world, but just because of the bible i wont believe it, all religions have scriptures, all of you could be getting led up the garden path. Id rather just do what i said until i get undeniable proof...

Look at Biblical prophecy. God came to Prophet's in dreams and visions, and gave them messages that he wanted delivered to people. If you read many of those propecies from ancient times, they've already happened. It's amazing. I believe that proves that Christians are right.

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by Eliot
Look at Biblical prophecy. God came to Prophet's in dreams and visions, and gave them messages that he wanted delivered to people. If you read many of those propecies from ancient times, they've already happened. It's amazing. I believe that proves that Christians are right.

And what about Nostradamus? He told the future right down to people names and was never wrong, he never once mensioned anything about Christianity.
It is not only Christians that can tell the future. Why not believe this guy? He can tell the future aswell, and doesnt mension Christianity, or any other religion for that matter....

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
Hehe, yes i know you said it :)

Okay, i'll re-phrase it:

"What would the world do if all religious scripts contradicted?"

I didn't quite understand the question. You mean, if the religions contradicted each other? But many of them do this already; so I guess the world would go on just as it is going now. We have to pick the best option among many choices.

There is only one which comes vouchsafed by God Incarnate, you know ;). And there is NO contradiction in it.

[Eliot]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
And what about Nostradamus?

I've never heard of him up till now. :p

[Eledhwen]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
And what about Nostradamus? He told the future right down to people names and was never wrong, he never once mensioned anything about Christianity.
It is not only Christians that can tell the future. Why not believe this guy? He can tell the future aswell, and doesnt mension Christianity, or any other religion for that matter....

85% of the Bible's prophecies have been fulfilled (Derek Prince). The remaining ones are about the return of Jesus and the renewing of heaven and earth.

Nostradamus (http://www.howstuffworks.com/nostradamus.htm) is interesting, but his followers have predicted the end of the world on a number of occasions, revising the date each time it fails to happen. I know that some crackpot Christian types have done likewise, but thankfully we have a mainstream who pay heed to Jesus' words "no-one knows the day or the hour..." when considering his return, and we are warned not to be caught sleeping or unprepared.

One thing I know is this... Celebthôl will not be convinced by any arguments presented here. Like the woman at the well, he will keep changing the subject until he gets into dialogue with the only person who can convince him - Jesus. But Like CS Lewis on the top deck of a bus, like Neo's choice of pills in The Matrix, to find out how deep the rabbit hole goes, he has to go down it, and there might be no way back.

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by Eledhwen
Celebthôl will not be convinced by any arguments presented here. Like the woman at the well, he will keep changing the subject until he gets into dialogue with the only person who can convince him - Jesus.

Is that to much to ask? If God loved me enough he would manage to proove it, and not just to me, but to all those that didnt believe in the correct religion...

[Eledhwen]

Exactly. But he doesn't but in where he's not wanted. Only those who seek will find. Have you tried asking him if he's real?

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by Eledhwen
Exactly. But he doesn't but in where he's not wanted. Only those who seek will find. Have you tried asking him if he's real?

And which one do i ask?

Chrisitian? Jew? Islamic? Budhist?

And who said he wasnt wanted? I want very much to know who the correct God is, but i won't put my faith into books anymore, i did that once and it was disastrous....

[Eriol]

Will you never trust a book, any book, again in your life? Well, you might as well move to Tibet (as I said to you several times). Knowledge is stored in books, you know. Would it help to see a movie, or listen to a tape?

Now, if your sentence means "I will not trust in bookish knowledge", where "bookish" means "stale, dead", than I agree with you. You shouldn't. But the Jesus that is looking for you is not a book. He is a Person. Look for Him, and you will find Him.

Read the gospels, and you will see that there is nothing "stale" or "dead" there. It is the most amazing true story that ever happened. If you like LotR, you ain't seen nothing yet ;).

(Of course, if you will never trust any book again, you should burn your LotR edition...)

:eek:

[Celebthôl]

What is the point in reading knowledge?

It is better to gain it through first hand experience, and that is what i intened to do.

I probibly will read the Gospels in time, when i am ready to, but i will not force myself to read it.

(hehe, no chance, i believe that more than anything else ;))