The Hall of Seminars - Archive

[Lhunithiliel]

This will be the place where we can discuss all issues concerning and related with the lectures in the Hall of Lectures.
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Good luck! :D

[Lhunithiliel]

Well, here we are...starting sth. valuable.. Right?
From what I've read in the "Happenings"-thread, in order to have lectures we should choose the topics and then the lecturers.

Therefore, here is my first suggestions for the organization of the lecturing activity:

1/ Chose the TOPICS
We shall have 7 full days, starting tomorrow (for me ;))- 7-th December and finishing on the 14-th December, 0:00 forum time. During this time you are welcome to suggest the topics for the lectures.
I would advise the topics to be not the "chapter-by-chapter"-kind but of a more generalized character. Just the type gate7ole suggested.
The topic may cover all and any of Tolkien (father and son) writings.

After we have all the suggested topics let us form a Council of five people: The Guild-master (1), the Deputy (2); two TG-members (4) and one independent representative (5) (the last three mentioned members of the Council can change).
The Council shall have to decide which topics are good for lecturing and which should be changed slightly in order to be lectured and which won't be appropriate.
The Council shall have to be ready with its final decision in exactly three days - till December 18-th, and the list of the lectures will be posted.

Next:

2/ Assign the lectures

The Council shall receive applications from TG-members who would wish to be the Lecturing Professors on a topic chosen by them freely.
This will be a process of about a week or so. After Christmas, the Council shall have to assign the lectures and the starting dates for each one. The first Lecture to be held in the beginning of January, OF COURSE :)

Further:

The Council shall have to decide and determine the time-term of the discussions that will follow each Lecture. Those could be Q&A or any opinions posted, etc.
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Uph! I'm exhausted :cool:
*****

This is it.
Opinions?
Suggestions?
Welcome!!!!! :D

[Mrs. Maggott]

Sounds grand! Even better, sounds like somethin' happenin'! which is even better! However, I would suggest that if a Guild member comes up with a topic that he or she would like to present, that it not be "assigned" to anyone else. Other than that, the "moderators" could either ask members to take the chosen topics or assign them to members who have "put their name in the hat", so to speak, to be presenters.

As for the "comments" thread, perhaps there might be some way to prevent an overlap when the lectures change and some interested parties still wish to carry on a discussion about a previous lecture? Otherwise, it can become very confusing (full blown Technoboob here!). Perhaps if the topics are limited in number in the beginning, we could have a separate thread opened as each topic is presented, leaving the old threads until they are no longer active? However, I will leave those considerations in more qualified hands. :p

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
This will be the place where we can discuss all issues concerning and related with the lectures in the Hall of Lectures.
****
Good luck! :D

Just a suggestion: very few people liked to be "lectured". I realize that in university, this is standard nomenclature for a class, but perhaps "The Hall of Enlightenment" might be a more auspicious name!

Just a thought.

[Anamatar IV]

I realise that this will be WAY to easy for some of the members here but I wouldn't mind a lecture about the curse of Mandos. It's always confused me.

[Elennainie]

I'd like to see a lecture about philosophical notions found in the Sil. and or LotR, e.g. metaphysical ideas about Being and form and matter, etc.

[gate7ole]

OK, I would like to repeat my proposal which is a more war-like theme. (What did you expect I'm a guy:D )
The wars of Gondor during the Third Age and the description of its enemies.

[Lhunithiliel]

A few comments.

Mrs.Maggot, I think you are right about the post-lectures discussions. We shall of course need the opinion of the rest of the GT-members and maybe we shall have a separate thread for each post-lecture discussion.

People, Mrs.Maggot has made a few VERY IMPORTANT remarks and we need to discuss them and take decisions.

As for the assigning of the lectures, M.M., I don't think that every person who submits a Lecture-topic will feel qualified enough as to actually prepare the lecture. From the suggested topics so far, I could feel that only gate7ole is ready to lecture while Anamatar IV and Elennainie suggested topics, VERY INTERESTING ONES!!!!, but they sounded to me like " I wish I could attend a lecture". Excuse me if I did not understand you right, fellows :), If you wish to prepare those lectures, you'd better start thinking and gathering materials from now on ;) :D
This will be the case with a lot of other people, I guess. There are going to be issues that people wish to hear some expertise-quality opinion on.

I also understand that there are going to be people who will offer a lecture-topic and shall insist on their personal involvement. EXCELLENT!!!! Easier job for the Council!

But, we shall have to discuss this issue TOO!

Now, about the lecture-topics: Please, when you suggest one, let it be presented as a TITLE not just like an idea.
Ex:"The wars of Gondor during the Third Age" (gate7ole)
So, Anamatar and Elennainie, will you please do this with your wonderful suggestions?

Last: Let us start thinking about the two GT-members for the Council. Suggest! And also suggest who should we invite for an independent Council member. My first thought was about Maedhros. You?????

Lastest :D : I also would LOVE to learn your suggestions on a BETTER name for these two "scholary" threads! Perhaps sth. in Quenya ;) ?

[Elennainie]

From the suggested topics so far, I could feel that only gate7ole is ready to lecture while Anamatar IV and Elennainie suggested topics, VERY INTERESTING ONES!!!!, but they sounded to me like " I wish I could attend a lecture". Excuse me if I did not understand you right, fellows , If you wish to prepare those lectures, you'd better start thinking and gathering materials from now on
You were right. I'd rather attend than prepare a lecture on my topic. I would consider preparing and presenting it, however, if no one else wants to, since I have a background in philosophy. However, I am so busy I can hardly keep up with the quenya course, :( so I don't want to take on too much.

Now, about the lecture-topics: Please, when you suggest one, let it be presented as a TITLE not just like an idea.
O.K. my topic's title: "Metaphysical notions of Being, form and matter in the Silmarillion and Lord of the Rings" or "Finding philosophy in the Silmarillion and Lord of the Rings"

Also, my suggestion for a name for the hall of lectures: Tarquesta (meaning "high speech")

[gate7ole]

by Lhunithiliel
As for the assigning of the lectures, M.M., I don't think that every person who submits a Lecture-topic will feel qualified enough as to actually prepare the lecture. From the suggested topics so far, I could feel that only gate7ole is ready to lecture while Anamatar IV and Elennainie suggested topics, VERY INTERESTING ONES!!!!, but they sounded to me like " I wish I could attend a lecture". Excuse me if I did not understand you right, fellows, If you wish to prepare those lectures, you'd better start thinking and gathering materials from now on. This will be the case with a lot of other people, I guess. There are going to be issues that people wish to hear some expertise-quality opinion on.
Don’t think that I am able to give such a lecture now. I have to start gathering the appropriate material, too. No matter what previous knowledge one has on a subject, only thorough search is needed if we want these lectures to be complete.
So, Elennainie is perfectly able to deal with the subject she(?) proposed, since she(?) has already some background in philosophy (the Letters will be a most valuable source for this matter).
by Lhunithiliel
Last: Let us start thinking about the two GT-members for the Council. Suggest! And also suggest who should we invite for an independent Council member. My first thought was about Maedhros. You?????
Oh, come on Lhunithiliel, the one place is definitely yours! For the independent member, Maedhros may be busy with his new guild. Probably a less involved person would accept the “chair”.

Another possible subject:
“Complete geneology of Mankind through the three Ages”.
It would follow Men from their awakening, through their migrations, the creations of Kingdoms… So, it would be easier to understand the kinship between the Gondorians and the Rohirrim, or the differences among the various Easterlings. This subject may be hard and will require much research.

[Anamatar IV]

Title: The curse of Mandos:rolleyes:

I have no way to prepare a lecture on this since I am asking for a lecture on it;) so yes I would rather be lectured than lecture.

[Elennainie]

Originally posted by gate7ole
So, Elennainie is perfectly able to deal with the subject she(?) proposed, since she(?) has already some background in philosophy Oh, I would NOT say perfectly able!!! :eek: As I said above, I'd rather someone else did it...I might know a little about the philosophy end of it, but I haven't read the Letters. Btw, G7o, I am indeed a she. ;)
(the Letters will be a most valuable source for this matter). Do you know of a specific place in them where it speaks about philosophy in the Sil or LotR? I would SO LOVE to know where it is.

This brings up a question I have about the lecture idea. How are we going to find people to lecture on our chosen topics? Are we going to ask forum-wide if someone is knowledgable (o.k. that's spelled wrong surely) about the topics and wants to lecture to us?

Perhaps if the topics are limited in number in the beginning, we could have a separate thread opened as each topic is presented, leaving the old threads until they are no longer active? This sounds good to me, Mrs. M.

[Lhunithiliel]

People!
WOW!
Reading the lecture-topics you suggest, I guess we should invite lecturing professors form Oxford and Harvard! :rolleyes:

I am saying that these topics are extremely interesting ........and now comes the......

BUT

they are so complicated..... :eek: Such topics will deffinitely need a very profound preparation.

Anyway, here are a few new points about the organization, that bothered me yesterday and I want to share them with you

1/ The whole organization of gathering the lecture-topics and assigning them to lecturing professors will be good to be done before Christmas and NY- holidays. Thus the people shall know what they are going to focus on and start preparing them for the lectures.

2/ When the final list of the first-session lectures is ready, and when some of the topics have been taken from GT-members (those who wish), and when we see what's left unassigned, I am thinking of opening a "Lecture-topics"- auction at the "Members Announcements"-section of TTF, PM a few people etc. in order to assign those topics to "Guest-lecturers". Of course, this activity will be carried out by every member of the Council. I was thinking too of inviting "Guest-Lecturers" from other forums/sites in the web... if, of course, we tempt them sufficiently.(But with topics like the so far suggested we might ;) :))

3/ The Council will give ENOUGH time to prepare a lecture, don't you worry! It may even decide to give a period of ....20 days! How's that? Will it be enough?

Gate7ole, :D, thanks for the offered position in the Council! And I accept it.... (such an unexpected decision, isn't it?! ;) ) What about YOU? Would you like to become my partner? Besides, the two positions taken by GT-members will change. so for a while we shall be there and then other GT-members will replace us... Common, join me NOW!

Elennainie, thank you for the names for the Halls! I however see that you and some other people are still looking for solutions, so let's wait until the final variant is being approved. OK?

Oh! I would like to hear lectures on:
"Weapons in Middle Earth"
"Coat of Arms in Middle Earth"
"The Ages in the Historical Development of ME - definition, characteristics, marking events, importance"

[Lhunithiliel]

LIST OF LECTURE-TOPICS:

1. "Metaphysical notions of Being, form and matter in the Silmarillion and Lord of the Rings" or "Finding philosophy in the Silmarillion and Lord of the Rings"

2. "The wars of Gondor during the Third Age and the description of its enemies.

3. “Complete geneology of Mankind through the three Ages”.

4. "The curse of Mandos"

5. "The weapons and warfare in midddle earth"

6. "Coat of Arms in Middle Earth"

7. "The Ages in the Historical Development of ME - definition, characteristics, marking events, importance"

8. "J.R.R.Tolkien - who and what influenced him to create the ME?"

9. "Finding parallelism between Tolkien epics and mythologies of ancient civilisations"

10. "Symbolic meaning of numbers and names in Tolkien's works"

11. "J.R.R. Tolkien - linguist and philologist. A view at Tolkien's works from a somewhat different angle."


*****
The List will be updated continuously!

[Húrin Thalion]

I am myself ready to take on all tasks that are assigned to me and you can therefore ask me to lecture about anything in the Hobbit, LotR, The Sil and UT. Only restriction is one subject per time and it would be perfect for me to lecture soon since this is the calmest part of the school year. I have got nothing else to do than lecturing except for my Quenya course so if we all could decide on a subject I'd be happy to take it on. Since I have quite an interest in medieval and ancient warfare I would prefer to take on "The weapons of middle earth" Which I suggest could be changed to "The weapons and warfare in midddle earth" for those two are very closely linked and the weapons subject may be a little narrow for me.

Húrin Thalion

[Mrs. Maggott]

Excuse me, but #6 - Coat of Arms in Middle Earth - are you speaking about the heralic devices used by the various cultures (Rohan's white horse, Gondor's White Tree etc.) or something else?

Thank you. :)

[Elennainie]

Since I have quite an interest in medieval and ancient warfare I would prefer to take on "The weapons of middle earth"
Hurin, if you'd like some more information for your lecture on this topic, you might try looking at The Lonely Mountain Forge website. http://members.aol.com/gijchar/main.htm Down at the bottom, Joe Piela has an essay entitled "Arms and Armor in JRR Tolkien's Middle Earth". I heard this man lecture on the subject at DragonCon, and he seems quite knowledgable. (I even got to try on a helmet of his and chainmail - it was so heavy!!! :D)

[Húrin Thalion]

Have you tryed a chainmail?????? Amazing! Thanks or the link.

Húrin

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Gate7ole, :D, thanks for the offered position in the Council! And I accept it.... (such an unexpected decision, isn't it?! ;) ) What about YOU? Would you like to become my partner? Besides, the two positions taken by GT-members will change. so for a while we shall be there and then other GT-members will replace us... Common, join me NOW!

I accept the proposition, though you will have to guide me through what you have in mind. (Also I would not want to be restricted in organizing issues, but in the lectures too).

Húrin Thalion, I see you are willing to aid in this effort. I'm glad! I believe that many others will join us.

[Lhunithiliel]

M.M. yes, #6 is precisely about this. :)

gate7ole, I am happy that you have accepted! PM me with any questions you might have, please! OK?

I would also like to include anothe lecture-topic suggestion:
"J.R.R.Tolkien - who and what influenced him to create the ME?"

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
M.M. yes, #6 is precisely about this. :)

I don't really know and I hate to put myself forward given my very serious shortcomings, but I would be interested in handling that topic if no one else is interested. Of course, I will happily defer to another candidate, but I am concerned that we won't really get this effort "off the ground", so to speak, if we delay too long in acquiring presenters for the topics. Of course, I would deeply appreciate being far enough down the line of presenters that I get a good idea of what is expected (this being a first for me and all). It might also give me time to dig out my source materials - I think I have them in a box that is stored next to Jimmy Hoffa....

Anyway, I hope that the thought of someone as ignorant as myself "lecturing" Guildmembers will frighten - ah inspire other members to come forward and offer their expertise for the topics indicated! :eek:

[Lhunithiliel]

Oh, dear Mrs.M., of course you may take the topic! I am very much interested in the subject and I will be attending your lecture at the "first row" :) I am sure you will present an excellent lecture!

We still have a few days left to forward lecture-topics-suggestions.
Go ahead! Add to the list more and more interesting topics.
******

[Melian]

Sorry I interrupt!
Errr...Lhun,according to my calculations,Dec 14 hasn't come yet and therefore I still might suggest a topic,right?OK,what about these--"Finding parallelism between Tolkien epics and mythologies of ancient civilisations"

and

"Symbolic meaning of numbers and names in Tolkien's works".

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Melian
Sorry I interrupt!
Errr...Lhun,according to my calculations,Dec 14 hasn't come yet and therefore I still might suggest a topic,right?OK,what about these--"Finding parallelism between Tolkien epics and mythologies of ancient civilisations"

and

"Symbolic meaning of numbers and names in Tolkien's works".

Mel, exactly my point :D
There is still time!
I am adding your suggestions to the List.

[Walter]

Well, my suggestion for a topic goes very much in the vein of #8 and #9, but concerns also in some ways also #1 and #10:

J.R.R. Tolkien - linguist and philologist. A view at Tolkien's works from a somewhat different angle.

[Elennainie]

J.R.R. Tolkien - linguist and philologist. A view at Tolkien's works from a somewhat different angle.
I love this lecture topic, Walter!!! I'll be there for it and look forward to it very much! :D

"Symbolic meaning of numbers and names in Tolkien's works". This sounds intriguing as well. :)

[Húrin Thalion]

I was just wondering, would you like me to prepare a topic?:confused:
I will need a week to prepare my lecture and then you can just call on me when it is time for me. I will eagerly participate in all the lessons suggested here (need I say so) and I think this is the best idea for the guild since starting it because it fulfills the guild description entirely and will be a lot of fun I think!

Húrin Thalion

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Húrin Thalion
I was just wondering, would you like me to prepare a topic?:confused:
I will need a week to prepare my lecture and then you can just call on me when it is time for me. I will eagerly participate in all the lessons suggested here (need I say so) and I think this is the best idea for the guild since starting it because it fulfills the guild description entirely and will be a lot of fun I think!

Húrin Thalion
But OF COURSE! :D
Post your lecture-topic suggestion in the thread and I will add it to the list. And you will later be given enough time to prepare it!
*****
I would also like to tell you all that it feels wonderful to see such an activity. It inspires me... I don't know how you feel! :)

Everyone who has already selected a topic he/she would like to present, will you, please, PM me or gate7ole? Thus we shall be able to forward to the Council's attention your requests. On the 15th December (I hope) the Council will be ready with its decision which topics will be in the final list and their exact titles, which will be assigned to whom and which topics will be presented for "auction" forum-wide.

Meanwhile, post any good lecture-topic idea! :) We still have a couple of days.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
LIST OF LECTURE-TOPICS:

1. "Metaphysical notions of Being, form and matter in the Silmarillion and Lord of the Rings" or "Finding philosophy in the Silmarillion and Lord of the Rings"
2. "The wars of Gondor during the Third Age and the description of its enemies.
3. “Complete geneology of Mankind through the three Ages”.
4. "The curse of Mandos"
5. "The weapons and warfare in midddle earth"
6. "Coat of Arms in Middle Earth"
7. "The Ages in the Historical Development of ME - definition, characteristics, marking events, importance"
8. "J.R.R.Tolkien - who and what influenced him to create the ME?"
9. "Finding parallelism between Tolkien epics and mythologies of ancient civilisations"
10. "Symbolic meaning of numbers and names in Tolkien's works"
11. "J.R.R. Tolkien - linguist and philologist. A view at Tolkien's works from a somewhat different angle."
The List will be updated continuously!

WoW.Are we going to attend lectures in Harvard or Oxford as you said?:rolleyes:
Seriously,I like some of the topics,especially:8,9,10:)
As a whole I would say your idea is great!

[Lhunithiliel]

I have the pleasure to present to you the
COUNCIL

Grond / the Chairman/
Walter /independent representative/
Ciryaher /a mighty Mod :) /
Gate7ole /Deputy Guild-Master/
Lhunithiliel /Deputy Guild-Mistress ;) :D /

*****

All who have already chosen a topic and are willing to prepare a lecture, please, PM the Council with your application.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Congratulations to all the worthy Council! May the spirit of JRRT bless and keep you in the performance of your duties!

God bless. :)

[Walter]

Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
Congratulations to all the worthy Council! May the spirit of JRRT bless and keep you in the performance of your duties!

God bless. :) Thankee ... and I should like to add: and may the good members take care that we don't run out of food and beverages while we're on that tasks... ;)

I'm aware that Grond would deserve the first reply (jus primae replicationis???), but he hasn't been on that much, of late...

[Lhunithiliel]

I just wish to remind everybody that today is the last day to post your lecture-topic suggstions.
Starting from tomorrow and within maximum two days the Council shall have to determine the final List of topics and within another two days assign topics to people.
Therefore:
1/ If you have another valuable and interesting topics - you are welcome to post them TODAY
2/ If you want to be the "lecturing professor" for a certain topic, please, PM one of the Council members, or post it in the thread.
BTW, the Council members may also "read" lectures. Being a Council-member does not mean one cannot chose a topic and prepare a lecture....even more than one if he wants to. :)
******

Hurin, as I know you want to do the "Weapons"-topic, here is a link for you where you can find excellent photos of weapons, as the movie-makers have made them.

http://www.fantasyplanet.cz/lotr/galeriefilm.asp?start=31&vyhledat=

[Gil-Galad]

I saw the site and I think it's very intersting,but there is one problem.Very big problem-I don't understand the language,although the czechs are slavs like bulgarians.:(

[Lhunithiliel]

I would like to most kindly invite the Council-members
to contact each other and finalize the Lecture-topics List.

This task should be finished by Monday....
Thus we shall have the time to proceed with the topics-assignement, which will take us much more time .

****************

Oh, G-G! Common! This is a Slavic language... It can be guessed looking at the word-core/root ;) Look more carefully :D
Besides, there is no need to read... This site has one of the richest collection of LOTR (FOTR+TTT)-movies stills. Just enjoy them :)

[Lhunithiliel]

The Council is now discussing the final content and the exact title of the Lectures.
We should be ready today, I suppose.

What next?

There going to be the "IN-GUILD AUCTION" for the Lectures. The final variant of the List, as approved by the Council, will be posted here and the GT-members shall have the exclusive right to pick up a topic of a lecture....

[Mrs. Maggott]

Ah, the anticipation of it all! It will be so good to see the Guild in action!

Now if we could translate our beautiful Coat of Arms into an avatar (is that the name?) and I can figure out how to add it to my left hand side thingummy, I will be a happy camper! And then I will be able to put up that I am a member of this most worthy Guild!

Gads! Christmas hasn't been this happy since....well! :D

[gate7ole]

Here follows the list of the subjects of the lectures, with the dates they are supposed to be finished and presented. The dates are flexible and mostly serve to give some deadlines to people who want to organize their work.
The assignment starts right away. Everyone interested in a subject should post it here. If there are conflicts, we will solve them democratically. If there are any objections, post them here too.
One more thing. The lectures are open to all Forum members and not only the Tolkienologists.

1. “The Curse of Mandos”
assigned to Finduilas, Date: January 19th

2. "Weapons and warfare in midddle earth"
assigned to Húrin Thalion, Date: February 2nd

3. "First Age - definition, characteristics, marking events, importance"
assigned to Lhunithiliel, Date: February 16th

4. "Third Age - definition, characteristics, marking events, importance"
assigned to Mrs. Maggott, Date: March 2nd

5. “Complete geneology of Mankind through the three Ages”.
assigned to gate7ole, Date: March 16th

6. "Second Age - definition, characteristics, marking events, importance"
assigned to Gil-Galad, Date: March 30th

7. "a)Symbolic meaning of numbers and names in Tolkien's works. -Coat of Arms in Middle Earth.
b)Finding parallelism between Tolkien epics and mythologies of ancient civilisations”
assigned to Melian, Date: April 13th

8. "J.R.R.Tolkien:
a)Who and what influenced him to create Middle earth?
b)Linguist and philologist. A view at Tolkien's works from a somewhat different angle”
assigned to Walter, Date: April 27th

9. "Finding philosophy in the Silmarillion and Lord of the Rings"
assigned to Elennainie, Date: May 11th

10. "The wars of Gondor during the Third Age and the description of its enemies.”
assigned to FoolOfATook, Date: May 25th

[gate7ole]

Being a council member, it gives me the opportunity to choose a subject for me, before anyone else takes it ;) . I choose #5.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Might I suggest (perhaps you already do this and being new to the Guild, I just don't know about it) that the lecturers make their documents - including bibliographies and the names of other reference materials - available for downloading so that interested parties can print out and keep them for their libraries?

In the same way, perhaps at the end of a thread dealing with a particular lecture, the questions and their answers can be translated into a document that can be downloaded and also printed at home and kept at the end of each "lecture" document.

Alas, for all I know (technoboob that I am), such things might be "easy as pie" or "impossible" or somewhere in between. Still, it would be a shame to waste all the effort and information which I am certain persons like myself would wish to keep in a loose-leaf binder for enlightenment and the joy of knowledge.

[Walter]

Mrs. Maggot we plan on publishing the lectures at the TolkienWiki - given the respective lecturers will agree - where they will remain unforgotten and easily available (or downloadable) for everyone.

I will repeat my offer to do topic 8 (since I already decided to do an "essay" about almost the same topic for the Wiki) in case no one of the Tolkienologists is eager to do it.

[gate7ole]

About the suggested "format" Mrs. Maggott suggests, I believe we can arrange it. Wouldn't you like to be assigned a lecture Mrs. Maggott?

And of course, these lectures should be shared with everyone. Publishing them at the TolkienWiki provides such an opportunity.

[Lhunithiliel]

Gate7ole, first of all, thank you for posting the List!

Second, however, I am very much interested in the "coat-of-arms"-subject. That's why I had suggested it and I remember Mrs.Maggott had expressed her willingness to take up this subject.... Then we have slightly changed it to "symbolism"-matters.....

What I'm saying is that Topic #7 should include this specific subject....I'd wish! :rolleyes:
********
I am sure Hurin wanted to take topic # 2!
********
I, too, would like to say that after people have chosen their Lecture-topics, it would be wonderful to use this thread here as a sort of.... on-line "library".

I mean that people read various things and if they come accross something that might be useful to a Colleague-Lecturing Professor in preparing his/her lecture, it would be nice if they share it in the thread... pointing out the respective source of information - books, articles, on-line materials...

[gate7ole]

I added the Coat of Arms to the subject 7, as you wished.:)
Now there may be a slight problem with 7b. If a person wants to do only 7a, then we can move 7b to 8 or even make it a new subject (in case someone wants to deal with it alone). But for now, it stays as it is.

[Lhunithiliel]

I'm taking # 3 !

***

Thanks, my colleague! :)
*****

To all Guild-members!
There is NOW a TTF-wide auction for the topics. In case you want to do a lecture - hurry up :)!
Your "applications", please PM to me, gate7ole or Walter, or post them here in this thread.

[Húrin Thalion]

Thank you Lhunithiliel, I am now bidding on #2.

Húrin Thalion

[Lhunithiliel]

And....Lecture # 7 goes toooooo......
MELIAN!!!!!

Congratulations!

[Gil-Galad]

I would very much like to have:
6. "Second Age - definition, characteristics, marking events, importance",

PLEASE....

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
I would very much like to have:
6. "Second Age - definition, characteristics, marking events, importance",

PLEASE....

AND....... YOU GOT IT!!!!!!

[Gil-Galad]

Thank you very much my dear Lhun.... ;)

[Melian]

Lhun,I feel so much honoured that I'm almost going to hold an acceptance speech :D
Thank you.I'll try my best.

[Lhunithiliel]

G-G and Melian, you are most welcome! :D

[Finduilas]

I see The Curse of Mandos is free.It would be an honour if it comes to me,please!:)

[Melian]

I'm eager to start!I promise I'll put much effort into my lecture....

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Finduilas
I see The Curse of Mandos is free.It would be an honour if it comes to me,please!:)
GO, MY BRAVE COUNTRY-FELLOWS! BRAVO!

My fair Finduilas, you have the Lecture assigned :) Congratulations! It's a great topic!

[FoolOfATook]

I'm not sure if it's appropriate for someone just accepted into the guild a few hours ago, but I'd like to express an interest in working on the tenth lecture- The Wars of Gondor in the Third Age and the enemies of Gondor. This has always been a particular interest of mine, and the White Tower and the bravery of the Guards of the Citadel has been the subject of quite a few of my stilted, written in barely adequate blank verse poems. If the esteemed heads of the Guild are not yet prepared to trust an untested and unproven commodity, I quite understand, but I do offer any form of service I am capable of towards this lecture- research, typing, editing, and so forth.

Yours humbly,

[Lhunithiliel]

Honourable Master Took, you have the Lecture # 10!

The "official" List and assignement is here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=203552#post203552)

Great topic! Make us awe at your knowledge.......which, BTW, seems respectfully considerable! :)

[Mrs. Maggott]

I am interested in Topic #9: The Third Age, seminal events etc. If no one else wishes to bid on this, I would like to try my hand.

Of course, if a more worthy candidate is found, I will happily step aside in that person's favor. The idea is for the best possible presentation to be put forth. Obviously, this is not a "popularity contest"! ;)

[Lhunithiliel]

Mrs.Maggott, am I HAPPY for you to have picked up this wonderful topic! :)
IT'S YOURS!

[Elennainie]

Since no one else has chosen philosophy, I'll try to do it, if chosen. Is there any way we can switch the date to a later month? With work, its hard to do extra stuff like this, although I'd love to try. Also, I've begun researching this topic and have only found 1! journal article and it was more about theology, not philosophy. A Google search for web stuff didn't even bring up anything either. Also, i looked in Sauron Defeated at the Inklings Club section and didn't find much. I just got the Letters for Christmas, so hopefully there will be more in there.

Any suggestions of research material anybody has seen on philosophy in Tolkien would be greatly appreciated! Also, if there is someone who knows more about this topic and wants to do the lecture, they are welcome to it!

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Elennainie
Since no one else has chosen philosophy, I'll try to do it, if chosen. Is there any way we can switch the date to a later month? With work, its hard to do extra stuff like this, although I'd love to try. Also, I've begun researching this topic and have only found 1! journal article and it was more about theology, not philosophy. A Google search for web stuff didn't even bring up anything either. Also, i looked in Sauron Defeated at the Inklings Club section and didn't find much. I just got the Letters for Christmas, so hopefully there will be more in there.

Any suggestions of research material anybody has seen on philosophy in Tolkien would be greatly appreciated! Also, if there is someone who knows more about this topic and wants to do the lecture, they are welcome to it!

My lecture on the Third Age is due in May. If the Guild leaders will permit, I am willing to "swap" the time frame with Elennainie if it will not cause too much of a problem. I still have January and February to complete a reasonably decent essay on the Third Age. It would appear that there is no need to take it into May (it's not nearly as extensive a topic as #6) except that this was the layout of topics.

I await your decision and, also, if it is alright with Elennainie. :)

[Elennainie]

Bless you, Mrs. Maggott! Thank you so much for your kind offer to swap! :) I will await the decision of the lecture leaders.

[Gil-Galad]

WOW!!!It looks like we are forming "The Fellowship of The Hall of Seminars"!!!!!!!
Lhun,again you had a great idea to start this thread!;) :cool:

[gate7ole]

How could we deny you anything Elennainie?
Your request has been satisfied (thanks to Mrs. Maggott's kind offer).


The auction is now over. All the topics have been assigned.
Well done to all the participants!

The lecturing time now begins. Lets get to business and prepare some astonishing lectures.
First lesson by Finduilas in less than a month.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by gate7ole
How could we deny you anything Elennainie?
Your request has been satisfied (thanks to Mrs. Maggott's kind offer).
The auction is now over. All the topics have been assigned.
Well done to all the participants!
The lecturing time now begins. Lets get to business and prepare some astonishing lectures.
First lesson by Finduilas in less than a month.

Forgive the question, but can I have an idea of approximate length? It would help to know about editing etc. Having never done this, I don't want to just "shoot from the frying pan", so to speak and make it either too short or too long.

Again, thank you!

[Elennainie]

Originally posted by gate7ole
How could we deny you anything Elennainie?
Your request has been satisfied (thanks to Mrs. Maggott's kind offer).

:D Thank you! I shall try to do my best on the lecture!

[Lhunithiliel]

First of all,
CONGRATULATIONS to all Lecture-readers for their choice!
Let's make this session.........."a session to remember!" ;)

And as I like saying: What next?

I think that from this point on this thread should be used by all of us to exchange advice, information etc. concerning the Lectures.
Thus we can help each other.

Thanks to Mrs.Maggot for asking about the length of a Lecture! I've been wondering about the same :eek: (whatever I do, my writings are always long :o )
I was thinking in deviding the topic into a few parts and each part to be posted separately.... But I don't know.... I'm still thinking.

BTW, as Lectures 3,6 and 9 are about the three separate Ages, we perhaps should present them in a simillar way?????
What do you think, G-G and Mrs.Maggot?
What should be the structure of the lecture? Where are you looking for information on your topics? Let us share...

Hurin, look what I have come accros: interesting! (http://www.armsofvalor.com/)
It might be of help to you for your topic!

[Elennainie]

Where are you looking for information on your topics? Let us share...

Gate7ole gave me some great primary sources/ places to start looking for philosophy stuff: The Letters, The Notion Club Papers in Sauron Defeated, and parts of Morgoth's Ring. At first I didn't think the Notion Club Papers had what I needed, but I read more closely last night and it is perfect! Thank you, thank you, G7o! :D

In addition to that, I've been doing research in electronic online journal article databases, like EbscoHost and ProQuest and ArticleFirst, for secondary sources, but this has only yielded two not-so-great articles so far. I also tried just Google as a last resort, but that didn't yield anything. I may have to just read through the Sil. and the LotR looking for the philosophical passages on my own and apply what I know from my philosophy studies. In other words, try to figure it out myself, since it doesn't seem anybody has written on the topic. A daunting thought.

Also, for those of us (like me) who don't have access to all the HOME we need, etc. try interlibrary loan at your local library. I had to do that for Sauron Defeated and one of my articles. I asked the library to buy the rest of HOME they didn't have, but they woudn't!!!:mad:
What should be the structure of the lecture?
I think breaking it into parts is good. That way you get immediate feedback on the first part and know if people are actually interested and are reading what you wrote, before you post the whole thing. Also, reading a really long post online is tiresome.
I think that from this point on this thread should be used by all of us to exchange advice, information etc. concerning the Lectures. Thus we can help each other.
What sources are the rest of you using for research? I'm sure we will all think of different places to look, and this thread will be very helpful!

[Melian]

Indeed we'll need references to fall back on...
Btw,Lhun,you're right---we're forming a national team here---G-G;Finduilas;you;me.....Shall we use a banner?

[FoolOfATook]

Since several of our topics overlap (my lecture about the enemies of Gondor and the wars of Gondor in the Third Age certainly covers some of the same ground with the lectures about the major events of the Third Age and the lecture about weapons and warfare, just off the top of my head) it might be usefull for us to figure out exactly who will be using similar information, and for us to work out some sort of formal system for sharing information sources, avoiding repeating each other too much, and perhaps even editing each others' lectures. As someone who studies the Common Speech (or at least its current form, that bittersweet tongue known as English) at a semi-respectable state university, I'd be more than happy to look at peoples' lectures for grammatical errors and so forth. We've taken on a rather imposing task, attempting to organize and impart the collected knowledge of Arda to out fellow Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves, Ents, Istari, Valar, Maiar and even Orcs, Trolls and Wargs (If I've left anyone out, please excuse this rather untravelled Hobbit) so we might as well do our best to ease one another's burdens.

Here's to the Fellowship of the Lectures of the Guild!

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by FoolOfATook
Since several of our topics overlap (my lecture about the enemies of Gondor and the wars of Gondor in the Third Age certainly covers some of the same ground with the lectures about the major events of the Third Age and the lecture about weapons and warfare, just off the top of my head) it might be usefull for us to figure out exactly who will be using similar information, and for us to work out some sort of formal system for sharing information sources, avoiding repeating each other too much, and perhaps even editing each others' lectures. As someone who studies the Common Speech (or at least its current form, that bittersweet tongue known as English) at a semi-respectable state university, I'd be more than happy to look at peoples' lectures for grammatical errors and so forth. We've taken on a rather imposing task, attempting to organize and impart the collected knowledge of Arda to out fellow Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves, Ents, Istari, Valar, Maiar and even Orcs, Trolls and Wargs (If I've left anyone out, please excuse this rather untravelled Hobbit) so we might as well do our best to ease one another's burdens.

Here's to the Fellowship of the Lectures of the Guild!

I don't think you need be concerned. It was never my intention to cover such matters "in depth". Of course, wars (since they tend to be somewhat largish forces) would be mentioned, but aside from saying who fought whom for what reason (and, naturally, who won), I would not be going into such things are strategy, weapons etc. Therefore, I would assume that the entire subject would be yours to cover to your heart's content. What little repetition which does occur will probably be forgiven by our readers.

[Húrin Thalion]

Thank you very much for the links Lhun!!!


If the one who has heraldics, I have the heraldic symbols for most of the houses in the first age, I'll have to get my scanner working first though. I'll post them here then if you need them, mostly stars though.

Húrin Thalion

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Húrin Thalion
Thank you very much for the links Lhun!!!


If the one who has heraldics, I have the heraldic symbols for most of the houses in the first age, I'll have to get my scanner working first though. I'll post them here then if you need them, mostly stars though.

Húrin Thalion
You're most welcome, Hurin! :)
You know, I was just going to ask if anybody had the heraldic symbols of the houses to post them.... And here you are :)
I'll be looking forward to it!
****
Now, as I see it, we should better exchange ideas and information about valuable sourses for our lectures (apart from the main books, of course) MORE, rather than discussing the way we should present the lectures.
Still, I will speak to my Council-mates and probably we'll decide about the length.
From this point on, I guess ever one will have the freedom to "build" her/his lecture as she/he thinks it appropriate.

[Finduilas]

GO, MY BRAVE COUNTRY-FELLOWS! BRAVO!

My fair Finduilas, you have the Lecture assigned Congratulations! It's a great topic!

Thank you!:)

[Finduilas]

Let me ask something-it turns out that I'm the first to write a lecture so would you tell if there should be questions?I mean should it be as the one in the Sil?:confused:

[Lhunithiliel]

I guess no.
The idea is to post a compact and possibly interesting point of view + well proved material / information on the topic.
After each lecture we can have a discussion in a separate thread.

[Finduilas]

Yes,thank you,but where should I post the lecture?

[gate7ole]

My thoughts about the lectures are the following:
Length:
I don’t think it is appropriate to set a limit to the length of the lecture. It depends strongly on the subject. Also, nobody should be “forced” to cut down his/her text, or expand it with useless info in order to reach a predefined length. Personally I don’t mind at all reading a long lecture if it educates me.
Form:
Here also, anybody can use a personal way to present the lecture. I would suggest everyone to use as many quotes from the books as s/he can find, in a way that they enter the text without breaking the flow of words. The quotes can for example be in different color to be distinguished from the lecturer’s phrases.
The lecture as I understand it shouldn’t be like school lectures from the teachers, but more like a presentation. It would start by introducing to the audience the subject and then provide the facts/ideas concerned with it in a sorted way (chronological, logical etc). After the presentation any possible questions could follow.
Charts, tables and any visual representation are welcome since it enhances the ability to comprehend the subject.
I can’t give any more ideas without spoiling the fun of writing one’s own lecture with his/her personal style.

Hail to the Fellowship of the Lecturers. Let’s cast the ring of ignorance to the depths of Orodruin.

PS. Finduilas, you can start a new thread with your lecture, with title: Lecture 1:...

[Lhunithiliel]

To what my colleague has said I'll just make a small clarification:
I have deliberately formed a Hall of Lectures as a separate thread.

HERE (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7639) WE SHALL POST THE LECTURES.

The discussions will be in separate threads for each lectures.

So, Finduilas, when you're ready with your lecture, yours will be the first in the above thread.

WISH ALL OF US LUCK!
HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL!

[Mrs. Maggott]

To Finduilas:

Yours is the awesome responsibilty of being first.

In appreciation of your efforts, if I can be of any assistance whatsoever, please feel free to call upon me either by pm or e-mail. I have a typing service which I use for income (? this is a living??), so if you need my help in that department, I am glad to be of assistance.

God bless and Happy New Year! :D

[Finduilas]

Thank you,all of you.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!!!!
In Bulgaria it has come at last!!!!!

[Melian]

Maybe it's too early for this request of mine,but I'd like to ask anyone of you willing to contribute to my lecture (about mythologies and symbolic numbers) to feel free to contact me.I'd be really grateful if you help me to develop an exquiste thread:)
And,yaeh,I wish everybody a very happy New Year!

[Finduilas]

That sounds interesting.Would you tell me something more?I think I'll try to help you.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
I guess no.
The idea is to post a compact and possibly interesting point of view + well proved material / information on the topic.
After each lecture we can have a discussion in a separate thread.
I have a question.In the process of "brain storming" I found that two topics are of greatest interest to me and have all the chance to be part of my lecture.But there is a problem.The first one is about the Secondborn and the other is about the Firstborn during II ages.The problem is that they cannot be in one lecture,I'll try to
epitomize them,but I'm not sure about the result.My question is may I write two lectures about II ages.About elves,and about men?

[Lhunithiliel]

G-G, only two???? I have found at least five, while thinking of the structure of my lecture! :p
Kidding!
First of all,
Hi! and
A MOST HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU!
Second,
I have discussed with the members of the Council this matter - length and structure of the Lectures, and the common opinion is that we can do whatever we want.


I, HOWEVER, would strongly suggest - JUST MAKE THE LECTURE AS INTERESTING AS POSSIBLE!!!!!!!

Personally, I think this means:
1/ Easy and attractive to read and understand
2/ Information from various and RELIABLE sources
3/ Well organized structure of the narration
4/ Not too long because nobody likes reading very long posts, even if these are going to be lectures.

At least, these are my principles.

[Húrin Thalion]

Hooray, I've got my first part done, now it is only to rewrite it twice until I'm happy with it. You'll havbe to excuse me if it is not very thourough on the smithying itself, I'm focusing on the results of the smithying.

Oh and if you don't like too long posts I can always shorten it down, but it is a pretty large subject. I'm thinking of posting, let's sayone part per day in four days or something and give you the time to breathe between my ramblings.

Húrin Thalion

[Finduilas]

Oh and if you don't like too long posts I can always shorten it down, but it is a pretty large subject. I'm thinking of posting, let's sayone part per day in four days or something and give you the time to breathe between my ramblings.

OK,does this mean that I can post different parts of the lecture on more than one day.I mean I am not obliged to post it on one day?

[Húrin Thalion]

Well since athere is a month till next lesson I thought I could, correct me if I can't council members!

Húrin Thalion

[gate7ole]

Each lecture has a time of 2 weeks to evolve before proceeding to the next one. Each lecturer has to decide whether s/he will provide all the info immediately and then wait for the possible questions. Someone may want to first provide a condensed lecture for those who are "bored" to read lengthy posts (e.g. Lhun;) ) and then shoot the poor reader with his/her real work, which will be more thorough. At least this is my intention. I will not be limited by length. If the stuff is much, I will not leave anything outside for the shake of readability!

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by gate7ole
Each lecture has a time of 2 weeks to evolve before proceeding to the next one. Each lecturer has to decide whether s/he will provide all the info immediately and then wait for the possible questions. Someone may want to first provide a condensed lecture for those who are "bored" to read lengthy posts (e.g. Lhun;) ) and then shoot the poor reader with his/her real work, which will be more thorough. At least this is my intention. I will not be limited by length. If the stuff is much, I will not leave anything outside for the shake of readability!

Good for you. If we wanted The Reader's Digest, we would have subscribed. However, it might be good to have your footnotes made into endnotes which could be given separately and that way the reader could go back and "match up" your information with your sources rather than including the sources in the narrative which can become confusing.

If you are really roaring away with narrative but you have six or seven "footnotes" indicating source material, it can become annoying to be interrupted while reading the flow of the narrative but you do want information on the source material. Numbering your text and then giving endnotes with sources matching numbers is, I think, far easier than trying to do footnotes in this medium or interrupting the narrative with the source information.

Anyway, that's just my opinion.

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by gate7ole
Each lecture has a time of 2 weeks to evolve before proceeding to the next one. Each lecturer has to decide whether s/he will provide all the info immediately and then wait for the possible questions. Someone may want to first provide a condensed lecture for those who are "bored" to read lengthy posts (e.g. Lhun;) ) and then shoot the poor reader with his/her real work, which will be more thorough. At least this is my intention. I will not be limited by length. If the stuff is much, I will not leave anything outside for the shake of readability!
:eek: :( :mad:

Hey! I DID NOT say that I don't like reading long posts! Why! I am one who more often has long posts herself! But I have seen other people complaining about it.
Don't get me wrong. I do not insist on cutting the length of the lectures!
And I, too, intend to post my lecture in portions.

[Melian]

I think I need a cure for an itch too.Well,my lecture (#7) consists of two subtopics methodically labelled a) and b).However,I think that each of them is quite huge.I won't be surprised if you fall asleep before reaching the end of the immense lecture.
So I support the idea for serving the fruit of our lore dose by dose.
As for footnotes,yes they make our works look more academic.Wait and see how I'll use kaballah sources for subtopic b)--the one about numbers....

[Lhunithiliel]

I am horrified!!!

The first part of my lecture is finished and it is 9 A4 pages!
ONLY the first part!!!!
And I still have to deal with the Wars of Beleriand, the coming of Men....
I'm posting this just to ask the other readers - How long have your lectures been so far?

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
I am horrified!!!

The first part of my lecture is finished and it is 9 A4 pages!
ONLY the first part!!!!
And I still have to deal with the Wars of Beleriand, the coming of Men....
I'm posting this just to ask the other readers - How long have your lectures been so far?

When we are all finished, can anyone suggest a publisher for our compendium?

Gak! :eek:

[Elennainie]

I haven't written mine yet, but so far my notes are 3 pages worth.
Go Lhun! I look forward to reading your lecture! :)

[Húrin Thalion]

Oh I have had to revide my numbers I sent to you in a PM, I have now about 6 pages material. But it would be nice to make this into a little book! A few of my friends have long wanted me to learn medieval bookbinding, maybe I could learn that and send away a few copies?

Húrin Thalion

P.S: I hope it is okay to you that I when it comes to my lecture mostly deal with the third age, this for two reasons: 1: We get more concrete and complete information from LotR than the Sil and also that all here have not read the Silmarillion and I wish that all who are interested to participate should be able to do this. D.S.

[Lhunithiliel]

Do you use quotes in your lectures?
I do. Maybe this is why I am getting too long... Although I tend to take the shortest possible quotes!

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
When we are all finished, can anyone suggest a publisher for our compendium?

Gak! :eek:
A tricky matter...
Publishing is something that I have been thinking of for some time .... Gronds knows best ;)
But in the case of the Lectures, if we use sources, written by other authors, we IMO would violate some copyrights, if we get published..... I guess...
I don't know! Some of the lecture-topics allow the reader to become a true researcher and an AUTHOR. Mine does not allow such a thing. It's pure history. No personal views or/and interpretations.... Although it's history of an imaginary world....

[Húrin Thalion]

Ass aid I could learn bookbinding... And send an ex. to all of the authors at least, though for a small penny, bindinf books and sendinf them is not too cheap. Think aobut it.

Húrin Thalion

[Mrs. Maggott]

It was a jest, oh noble Guild members (the "publishing" bit) brought on by what would appear to be the obviously lengthy nature of our lectures! However, I don't think that it would be a bad idea to be able to make some sort of document out of them for future reference.

Maybe we can e-mail them around as "attachments" at the end of each lecture if there is no way to print them at home. I have tried "copy/paste" with some stuff on the forum, but I cannot pick up the text for whatever reason. However, I have printed out stuff.

[gate7ole]

Oh boy, you have already reached the 9 pages and I haven't started! I'd better start working soon!

The whole idea about the publishing is very intriguing. We can organize it and after the end of the lectures, someone can volunteer to join them all in a "book", with contents etc. Everyone then can print it at home.

[Lhunithiliel]

I am afraid, you have not understood my trouble properly....
I am concerned with the length of the lecture very much! If it were a reading to be delivered in class, it's OK. My 9 pages will take about.... 5-8 min. of READING ALOUD .... plenty of time left for the rest of the material.....
But when it comes to a writing to be read....... ??????

On the other hand, I wouldn't want to cut any piece out. I even think that what is gathered on these 9 pages is NOT SUFFICIENT!...... to my taste (;) )

And

You did not answer my question......
DO YOU USE QUOTES ?

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel

You did not answer my question......
DO YOU USE QUOTES ?

I cannot say as of yet since I have not begun my topic. But I would imagine it would depend upon what the quote was being used for. It would not be necessary to use quotes for straightforward "time line" matters (so-and-so was born etc.), but if you are illustrating a conclusion reached which might not be immediately accepted as "fact" rather than "opinion" (and this was an evil thing etc.), then I would imagine that quotes supporting your conclusion might well be necessary (on page X of the Silmarillion, it says "Y").

The only thing I might suggest is to avoid "overkill" - that is finding five quotes to prove something that can be proved with one. It may be tempting, but space rather forbids digging up everything about a particular topic even if there is a wealth of information about it. Harry Truman once said it took him ten minutes to write an hour speech and an hour to write a ten minute speech. Brevity, besides being the soul of wit, as someone once said, is also bloody hard to achieve!

[Lhunithiliel]

I get your point and I thank you becuase I it's truly right!
But then....my topic, as I said, is pure history. I have to provide historical data. I can do it without quotes.....but it will lack attractiveness, becuase I love the beauty ot the Tolkien's English language used to describe events. I think without quotes the lecture will be so....... "dry" ;)
On the other hand, why should I "spoil" the narration about an event with my poor English, when Tolken has it in beautifully arranged words! And then I think it is better to use HIS words, not mine!
These are my reasons to use quotes.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
I get your point and I thank you becuase I it's truly right!
But then....my topic, as I said, is pure history. I have to provide historical data. I can do it without quotes.....but it will lack attractiveness, becuase I love the beauty ot the Tolkien's English language used to describe events. I think without quotes the lecture will be so....... "dry" ;)
On the other hand, why should I "spoil" the narration about an event with my poor English, when Tolken has it in beautifully arranged words! And then I think it is better to use HIS words, not mine!
These are my reasons to use quotes.
Certainly, you may form your narrative using quotes. "And at this time 'quote the author' which then led to 'quote the author'". That way, you aren't redundant in saying, "This happened this way which we know because 'quote the author'." You have simply allowed the author's narrative to be used rather than as a "proof" of your own statement. It cuts down on length, allows you to use the language and presents the point, all in one "fell swoop" as Shakespeare would say.

[Finduilas]

Ok,I have given the best(probably I still don't know)of me to shorten the lecture so that it wouldn't be annoying to raed it.Moreover,I don't like reading very,very,long posts as well.
I have also divided it into three diferent parts which I am about to post in three days period.So if you don't want to miss something up and to have time to think on my toppic as well you can start reading them from the first day.
I do use quotes but I'm not sure if my English is very rich.However, I've tried to make the text understandable for everyone.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
G-G, only two???? I have found at least five, while thinking of the structure of my lecture! :p
Kidding!
First of all,
Hi! and
A MOST HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU!
Second,
I have discussed with the members of the Council this matter - length and structure of the Lectures, and the common opinion is that we can do whatever we want.


I, HOWEVER, would strongly suggest - JUST MAKE THE LECTURE AS INTERESTING AS POSSIBLE!!!!!!!

Personally, I think this means:
1/ Easy and attractive to read and understand
2/ Information from various and RELIABLE sources
3/ Well organized structure of the narration
4/ Not too long because nobody likes reading very long posts, even if these are going to be lectures.

At least, these are my principles.

Thank you Lhun.I decided there are two topics that deserve our attention and would be interesting to you.But how long it should be?I will try to epitomize each in 2 to 4pages.Is it short enough?

[Húrin Thalion]

Okay... I've got 20 days left so I should be alright... Technical warfare does not take great pains to write about, only the effects of it. I must say that I think I will write much of it the same day as I post it because I will read it and see that it is all wrong and rewrite it but that is just me.

Húrin Thalion

[Gil-Galad]

Good Luck,Hurin Thalion!
I know you will write a great lecture!:) ;) :cool:

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
Thank you Lhun.I decided there are two topics that deserve our attention and would be interesting to you.But how long it should be?I will try to epitomize each in 2 to 4pages.Is it short enough?
So, the whole of it will be 8 pages.:eek:
My lecture-topic is similar to yours - mine FA, yours- SA.
Please, tell me, do you use quotes, or is it that each of those two main topics you present in a form of an...... essay, let's say ...... ?

[Gil-Galad]

Yes I use quotes.I need them in the process of my lecture.But they are not so much,just enough to help me prove my thesis.;)

[Finduilas]

Oh,guys,yours are not problems...:p
I'm posting mine in TWO DAYSSS!!!!!!!!!!!:eek:

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Finduilas
Oh,guys,yours are not problems...:p
I'm posting mine in TWO DAYSSS!!!!!!!!!!!:eek:

Tick, tock, tick, tock, tick, tock.............................................. :eek:

[gate7ole]

Ah, the exitement of the new activity of our guild!

BTW, Finduilas, have you decided the way that you will present your lecture to us? In parts, the whole, etc?

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Finduilas
Oh,guys,yours are not problems...:p
I'm posting mine in TWO DAYSSS!!!!!!!!!!!:eek:
It's today, right?

HAIDE, KASMET!!!!! ;) :) :D

In translation: "I wish you luck!":p

[Gil-Galad]

Isn't it in Friday.I talked with Finduilas yesterday and she told me that she would post her lecture in Friday
Goodd Luck !;)

[Finduilas]

Oh,sorry!
I looked it again and it turned out that it is on Sunday-19th:)
Tick,tick,I still have time.:p

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Finduilas
Oh,sorry!
I looked it again and it turned out that it is on Sunday-19th:)
Tick,tick,I still have time.:p

Disregard previous "tick, tock"........:D :D :p

[Melian]

Finduilas,I keep my fingers crossed for you!May it be you make a great beginning for our quest!

Uspeh,nie sme s teb!

[Finduilas]

Oh,I will try!:)

---------------------
Blagodaria mnogo!:)

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Finduilas
Oh,I will try!:)

---------------------
Blagodaria mnogo!:)
And you will succeed in glory and honor because you are you!

God bless. :)

[Finduilas]

And you will succeed in glory and honor because you are you!

Oh,:o :o :o
Thank you very much for the trust in me.:)

[Lhunithiliel]

NOW it's tomorrow!

STISKAM TI PALCI !!!!! :) :D

[Finduilas]

Daaa,mersiiiii!:D :p

[Húrin Thalion]

Ahhh! Självklart förstår jag vad ni säger, det är ju bara bulgariska!

Ahhh! Of course I understand what you are saying, it is only Bulgarian!

Did you know that Tolkien found it hardest to learn eastern european languages and especially Russian? I do not find that very strange after seeing your comments ;). I would like to learn russian and the cheapest and easiest way is to search for interpreter school when I become a conscript so that is what I'll do. ANyway aside from my rantings I am eagerly looking forward to your lecture Finduilas! Lycka till!

Húrin THalion

[Lhunithiliel]

:D :D :D

You know, this Bulgarian-Scandinavian-English "conversation" gave me an idea! (Oh! Lhun and her ideas!!!!!)

How about opening a thread where we start exchanging words and/or sentences in our native languages? Just for a bit of fun! ;)

[Melian]

Agreed,Lhun.I mean, SUGLASNA SUM, LHUN!
:)
Dear Scandinavian Thalion,I assure you Eastern European languages are not that hard to learn.No harder than Quenya,for example.:D And you know what? Buddhism teaches that hardship and pain are only illusions....Think about it when you learn Japanese.
Now,let's make a deal --- I tell you phrases and words in Bulgarian and you help me with my lecture,e.g. guide me through Scandinavian mythology?!;)

[Lhunithiliel]

BACK to the thread and its purpose.

WHERE IS THE FIRST LECTURE ?????

[Finduilas]

BACK to the thread and its purpose.

Oh:o :o
I am terribly ,terribly, terribly sorry!:(
Yesterday I had problems with my e-connection and although I kept trying till 1 am, it didn't work.I am sorry!:(
Please excuse me if you can although I know it is too much to ask.
However, I am posting it now.
And tomorrow I am posting the secong,but don't worry-it is smaller.
And the day after tomorrow the third one-the smallest.
So please excuse me and read.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Finduilas
Oh:o :o
I am terribly ,terribly, terribly sorry!:(
Yesterday I had problems with my e-connection and although I kept trying till 1 am, it didn't work.I am sorry!:(
Please excuse me if you can although I know it is too much to ask.
However, I am posting it now.
And tomorrow I am posting the secong,but don't worry-it is smaller.
And the day after tomorrow the third one-the smallest.
So please excuse me and read.

Calm yourself child lest you do yourself a serious injury! We all know what it is to have "c" problems! Post when you are able; we will be patient and await your pearls of wisdom which we are all sure will be well worth the wait!

God bless! ;)

[Finduilas]

Calm yourself child lest you do yourself a serious injury! We all know what it is to have "c" problems! Post when you are able; we will be patient and await your pearls of wisdom which we are all sure will be well worth the wait!

Thank you for the understanding!
Anyway, the lecture is already available.
:)

[Lhunithiliel]

Hey, Findi ;), don't worry, las!
The words were in red but that doesn't mean I wore the war-colors !;)

Take your time!

[Finduilas]

Now,do not surprise when you see that Gil-Galad has posted in the Hall of Seminars. It was a mistake. Oh, I am so absent-minded! It is actually me but with his user name...
Anyway, it won't happen again.
This is the second lecture, tomorrow I am posting the ending of it and the last third lecture because it ia rather small.
Have a nice time!:)

[gate7ole]

Finduilas, great lecture! Very impressive and thorough cover of the subject. I think that you already raised the level of expectations for the others too high! Although I must confess that in a few instances your advanced vocabulary confused me (an dprobably other non-english members).

[Melian]

Hey, people, I can't hear you applauding Fin.'s great lecture! C'mon! Everybody, let me hear you say:
HURRAY ! FINDUILAS !

Now, seriously,I found your lecture very profound and I have to admit that right now there are no questions arising in my head. The simple reason is, you've done such a good job and I still just marvel at it! I think you did set out an auspicious beginning as I told you!

[Finduilas]

Oh:o
Thank you ! I want to thank my family, me producer, my publisher....
:D :D
Now,seriously, THANK YOU!

Oh,I am posting the last part now and I am so exited...
Oh,just wait a second...I am coming back in asecond....

[Finduilas]

READYYYYYYYYYY!
Read, people, read.And I hope you like my work because I do it for you.:)
Oh,I am still so exited...:p

Now,I have fixed my user name at one of the lectures and everything is OK.
Tell me what do you think?Oh,I amvery exited..
Have I already said that?:D

[Elennainie]

Wonderful lecture, Finduilas! Good job! I do have one question, though. Forgive me, but I do not understand your point about the Ainur being like children. Could you elaborate?

[Lhunithiliel]

Finduilas, CONGRATULATIONS!!!
Very good job!
My, my....you must have been very busy to prepare it!!!
I'd wish to admit that you surprised me with the parents-children attitude towards the topic!!!!!:eek: I have never before thought on the subject from this point of view!
And this is another brilliant example of how one masterpiece of art can provoke various and diferent understandings!!!

[Finduilas]

I do have one question, though. Forgive me, but I do not understand your point about the Ainur being like children. Could you elaborate?

The Ainur are brought up by Eru. However, they do not have much experience when they start looking after children themselves. They only have love, imagination, wiseness, and many other positive qualities but they do not have the most important thing which turns a child into a grown person- differing good from bad. The simple reason for that is that they do not know Darkness.

[Elennainie]

O.K., that helps clarify it for me - thanks!

[Gil-Galad]

Lhun,she was very busy actually.I had the chance to observe the whole process of her work and I must confess se worked very very hard.Congratulations Finduilas!!!!
Your lecture is better than I have ever expected!!!!!!!!
Let me read it again and think about it for some days and then I'll ask you questions,if I have any.;)

[gate7ole]

After carefully reading the excellent lecture of Finduilas, I would like to raise a point.
I had never considered the Curse of Mandos as a penalty set by the Valar. I don’t think that the Valar had any such intention or ability. Their punishment against the revolted Noldor was the Hiding of Valinor and the denial of any help to their doomed war against Morgoth. I see the curse of Mandos as the result of the challenge of the Noldor to morality and Fate. Mandos is just the herald of Fate, not its ruler.
And one question:
About the responsibilities of each part of the people involved with the Curse of Mandos, did they all deserve this (e.g. Thingol, the Edain)? Why were they trapped in its net, since they originally didn’t break any laws? Is it connected with what I said that the Curse was not a penalty but the change of Fate according to the behaviour of people, not restricted in the breakers of rules but to all Arda (even the Ainur)? I would like to hear your opinion, Finduilas, being more informed on the matter than me.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by gate7ole
After carefully reading the excellent lecture of Finduilas, I would like to raise a point.
I had never considered the Curse of Mandos as a penalty set by the Valar. I don’t think that the Valar had any such intention or ability. Their punishment against the revolted Noldor was the Hiding of Valinor and the denial of any help to their doomed war against Morgoth. I see the curse of Mandos as the result of the challenge of the Noldor to morality and Fate. Mandos is just the herald of Fate, not its ruler.
And one question:
About the responsibilities of each part of the people involved with the Curse of Mandos, did they all deserve this (e.g. Thingol, the Edain)? Why were they trapped in its net, since they originally didn’t break any laws? Is it connected with what I said that the Curse was not a penalty but the change of Fate according to the behaviour of people, not restricted in the breakers of rules but to all Arda (even the Ainur)? I would like to hear your opinion, Finduilas, being more informed on the matter than me.
What you are saying in effect is a reprise of that old adage about "the sins of the fathers being visited upon the sons". It is not that a good God punishes the innocent, but that actions perforce have consequences and it is those consequences that affect future generations. Thus, we have crack babies, infants damaged in the womb by alcohol or who are HIV positive and who themselves are innocent but who "inherit" the "sins" of their parents.

The same can be seen in long running international feuds (Ireland and England, the Basques in Spain, the Middle East etc.). Actions having nothing to do with those living now still influence their lives and deaths. Nothing happens in a vacuum. Every action, every word has consequences. Most of the time, thankfully, they are relatively insignificant, but it is not for nothing that Christ says we will be held accountable "for every idle word" at the time of judgment.

[Finduilas]

I had never considered the Curse of Mandos as a penalty set by the Valar. I don’t think that the Valar had any such intention or ability.

Ability, yes. Actually, they were indeed able to punish the Noldor but I do not mean an extremely cruel or serious penalty but a kind of 'reminding' that they are on the wrong road. It was more like advice and a hopeful speech intended to make them forget about their madness.

I see the curse of Mandos as the result of the challenge of the Noldor to morality and Fate. Mandos is just the herald of Fate, not its ruler.

However, I consider the curse as more or less a 'parent's' advice and not a fate lesson.

About the responsibilities of each part of the people involved with the Curse of Mandos, did they all deserve this (e.g. Thingol, the Edain)? Why were they trapped in its net, since they originally didn’t break any laws? Is it connected with what I said that the Curse was not a penalty but the change of Fate according to the behaviour of people, not restricted in the breakers of rules but to all Arda (even the Ainur)?

Now, I think of the Curse more as a moral and even mental curse because those who continued the doomed revolt always carried a great sorrow in their hearts afterwards. However, the ones (Finarfin) who returned in Valinor and put an end of that craziness actualy did not get a Curse because they knew in thier hearts that they had done the right thing and so did the Valar. Nevertheless, the other Noldor were curse and even if they did not deserve it they challanged it against them by not obeying the Valar.

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Finduilas
Ability, yes. Actually, they were indeed able to punish the Noldor but I do not mean an extremely cruel or serious penalty but a kind of 'reminding' that they are on the wrong road. It was more like advice and a hopeful speech intended to make them forget about their madness.

Did they have the ability to rule Fate? To cause an entire race to be doomed by such a heavy Curse? I seriously doubt it. They were not Eru. They had powers but there was a limit.



Nevertheless, the other Noldor were curse and even if they did not deserve it they challanged it against them by not obeying the Valar.
I'm not talking about the other Noldor. I'm talking about the Sindar, the Edain, who had not broken any rule, yet were involved in the Doom of Mandos. How do you explain this?

[Finduilas]

Did they have the ability to rule Fate? To cause an entire race to be doomed by such a heavy Curse? I seriously doubt it. They were not Eru. They had powers but there was a limit.

A curse is a subjective concept. Do you believe that if YOU curse someone it will come true only because of magic. When someone had been cursed he starts acting or thinking 'histerically'.Imean he starts taking it into his head. And although it would probably not happen they nearly challange Fate by extremely believing in magical powers. It is people's nature and we cannot escape from it. So the answer of your question is yes. So can we. Tolkien's works are closely related to our world so objectively looked the curse is only consisted of a couple sentences which has a magnificent influance over people's consiousness.

I'm not talking about the other Noldor. I'm talking about the Sindar, the Edain, who had not broken any rule, yet were involved in the Doom of Mandos. How do you explain this?

Well,in my opinion every single elf who did not return to Valinot with Finarfin and did not repent of his deeds DID deserve the curse. Unfortunately, we all live a common live with a common destiny. So due to the Noldor's (I write the Noldor because the biggest part of the 'rulebreakers' were Noldor) disobedience every body suffered. However, I do not think that the ones who had not broken the rules(I mean moral rules as fratricide) did not deserve their own doom.

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Finduilas
A curse is a subjective concept. Do you believe that if YOU curse someone it will come true only because of magic. When someone had been cursed he starts acting or thinking 'histerically'.Imean he starts taking it into his head. And although it would probably not happen they nearly challange Fate by extremely believing in magical powers. It is people's nature and we cannot escape from it. So the answer of your question is yes. So can we. Tolkien's works are closely related to our world so objectively looked the curse is only consisted of a couple sentences which has a magnificent influance over people's consiousness.
I understand your logic, but I disagree with the fact that the Valar cursed the Exiled Noldor. They did not have anything to do with the Doom. It was the effect (caused by their deeds) to Fate. They themselves changed their Fate to Doom. The Valar IMO only hided Valinor, as a punishment to the Noldor.

[Finduilas]

They themselves changed their Fate to Doom.

I agree with you that they did change their Fate on their own. Actually, everybody did.

I understand your logic, but I disagree with the fact that the Valar cursed the Exiled Noldor. They did not have anything to do with the Doom.

I have to correct something:

However, I do not think that the ones who had not broken the rules(I mean moral rules as fratricide) did deserve their own doom.

[Húrin Thalion]

Great lecture Finduilas!

Anyway I am in kind of a panic because I have jsut started rewriting mine!:eek:

I know I'm stupid to do it now but I always change about what I written and what seemed perfect a month ago is now awful.

Anyway I am asking you if this kind of lecture would be okay: First I introduce and give some information aobut the warfare in the time we are talking about . This is the most controversial part since it is not very much about Tolkien. SHould I mix it up or would it be too messy? Help!

Húrin Thalion

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Húrin Thalion
Great lecture Finduilas!

Anyway I am in kind of a panic because I have jsut started rewriting mine!:eek:

I know I'm stupid to do it now but I always change about what I written and what seemed perfect a month ago is now awful.

Anyway I am asking you if this kind of lecture would be okay: First I introduce and give some information aobut the warfare in the time we are talking about . This is the most controversial part since it is not very much about Tolkien. SHould I mix it up or would it be too messy? Help!

Húrin Thalion

Oh, but I disagree! Tolkien's warfare is definitely "pre-gunpowder" (unless you consider the fire of Orthanc as such, which it probably was). It was also doubtless pre-plate armor, using mostly chain mail over long leather garments. So anything you can tell us about battle tactics and warfare under such situations is bound to clarify Tolkien's works since he doesn't do much "explaining" of such things and to know the basics of them is to better understand what he is saying.

The only thing that Tolkien has that is definitely out of order date wise is the stirrup which didn't come into use until the battle of Hastings in 1066 at which time William's Normans were able to stay mounted and control their animals much better than the Saxons because of this relatively new invention. The stirrup also made it possible for the heavier knight to evolve with his plate armor and high cantled saddle since the stirrup gave him much greater stability. However, I don't remember Tolkien speaking of stirrups particularly, but of tack and saddles, so perhaps he didn't incorporate the stirrup in his accoutrements at all.

[Finduilas]

Anyway I am asking you if this kind of lecture would be okay: First I introduce and give some information aobut the warfare in the time we are talking about . This is the most controversial part since it is not very much about Tolkien. SHould I mix it up or would it be too messy? Help!

Your topic is 'Arms and Warfare in Middle-Earth' or something like that. So I will advice you (first tell me are you going to divide your lecture into pieces :confused: ) to write about Tolkien's weapons and then compare them to real-world weapons and their history. You also may write about the fate of those weapons (and about the history of some of the most famous and important) and their influance in Middle-Earth history.
That's what I can think of now without thinking a lot on your subject but I'm sure you can find many more theses and themes to be developed. These are only the roots.:)

[Gil-Galad]

I read and re-read your lecture and thought seriously about some things:
However, it seems that only Morgoth accepts It and also understand, study, rule. Nevertheless, he most strongly desires the Light and he wishes to rule the Beauty.
I think only Eru understands the void,he is the one who can create anything from it.Melkor tries to understand it.He cannot rule it ,only Ery can.I think the void should not be claimed as something evil,it is neutral.It depends on the person whether he will use it for bad or good purposes.Melkor can only try to study,to understand ,to rule it,but he will never manage,cause he is nothing more than imitator.

**Here we can find similarity between Tolkien’s and Bulgarian literature during 19-20 century.Although the family problems is a frequently found topic ,we can consider the fact that Tolkien might have known a lot about Bulgarian folklore as well.
I disagree with you.Family problems are main topic of some of the greatest Bulgarian writers from the period 1870-1910.The topic is about the Patriarchal society and the fact it is outdated.In Tolkien's books we cannot find any idea of Patriarchal relationships between characters,because the father(the boss in the Patriarchal society) doesn't have the dominion role in the stories.I would agree there is a kind of feudalism in his world but not Patriarchal society.

[Gil-Galad]

Throughout the whole lecture you say that the Valar are "inexperienced" and that they should have been experienced and then to upbring the Firstborn.Let me ask you a question:
Is a young parent experienced when he has his first child?
No.It is impossible to be experienced when you have not faced the problems of upbringing.As I can remember there isn't a guide or a book called:"How to upbring you children".Everyone should gain cognition about that when he faces the problems of upbringing kids.


And the last thing I'll say is about Galadriel.You said she desire to rule over lands etc.......I think she refused to go back in Valinor not only becasue of his pride,but also because she wanted to have her own lands,to be a queen.At the time she refused the invitation to return to Valinor Melkor was defeated and it seemed evil is defeated too.Probably Galadriel thought that was her chance to stay in ME and rule vast lands and she didnt want to miss it.

[Mrs. Maggott]

And yet, I certainly got the feeling the first time I read S. that the Valar were attempting to escape any unpleasantness - an unpleasantness, I remind you, arising from one of their own!

One could hardly expect elves or men to deal with Morgoth if even the Valar could not (let me show you the mighty towers I have builded for the lamps of Valinor - ice, forsooth). He deceived Manwe as well as men and elves. I would hardly say that such deception proved the weakness of elves and men - or at least of elves and men alone!

Finally, the Valar decided to move when all was chaos and destruction, chaos and destruction may I remind you, brought about by a being that was far above either of Iluvatar's children.

Yes, Feanor was selfish, disobedient and, frankly, wicked. But the Valar don't in my mind at least, deserve much credit for the way they spent most of S. attempting to avoid unpleasantness. And where, in the end, did it get them? In a way, they were the "ents" of their day: don't look at it and maybe it will go away!

[Finduilas]

I think only Eru understands the void,he is the one who can create anything from it.Melkor tries to understand it.He cannot rule it ,only Ery can.I think the void should not be claimed as something evil,it is neutral.It depends on the person whether he will use it for bad or good purposes.Melkor can only try to study,to understand ,to rule it,but he will never manage,cause he is nothing more than imitator.

There are two (and probably lots more) sides of the Void- one is the Bright ,'Good' one, the other is the Dark, 'Bad' one. Certainly Eru does understand them both and the entire Void. However, Melkor devotes his life to the Dark side and its capture. In my lecture I meant that Dark side which was closely studied by Melkor. He couldn't entirely rule It but he could USE it for his purposes- he was a meastro in a way. I agree, however, with you Gil-Galad, that he couldn't rule its entire might.



I disagree with you.Family problems are main topic of some of the greatest Bulgarian writers from the period 1870-1910.The topic is about the Patriarchal society and the fact it is outdated.In Tolkien's books we cannot find any idea of Patriarchal relationships between characters,because the father(the boss in the Patriarchal society) doesn't have the dominion role in the stories.I would agree there is a kind of feudalism in his world but not Patriarchal society.

Now this is something I completely disagree with. This year in school we are studying Bulgarian literature during this exact period:19-20 century and I will even mention some of the works which I consider as a proof of my thesis.
1. Nikolai Haitov- 'Dervishevo Seme'- Here as in almost every Bulgarian work thePatriarchal society is concerned. However, the main theme of the work is the ritual of Marriage and the wrong threatment of children .They are forced to marry only because of fortune and lands. Bringing up is not important at all. However, this story is not the best argument because it is mostly of the conflict between Family and personal freedom.
2.Ivailo Petrov-'Predi da se Rodia i sled tova'- this story is about the limited personal choise as well, but only the one of young people-children. We can come to conclusion that if children's rights are not kept , their upbringing is certainly not on a high level.
This works are ones of true merit and it is no chance that they are studied under the Heading-'Family and Universal Human Values'
However, I agree with you,GG, that other great writers have 'discussed ' those problems within those years(1870-1910) for example, 'Maminoto Detenze', Luiben Karavelov( or was it writen earlier:confused: ).

[Finduilas]

Throughout the whole lecture you say that the Valar are "inexperienced" and that they should have been experienced and then to upbring the Firstborn.Let me ask you a question:

Yes, they are unexperienced in the way of knowing good and bad.
At least young mothers do know how to differ it better and how to protect their children of it. They have the so called mother's instinct, while the Valar do not . Of corse they cannot be completely experienced before facing the problms but at least (more mothers) are rather grown- ups.

[Lhunithiliel]

Dear Finduilas, I stayed out of this discussion becuase as I have already mentioned, you surprised me with this "parents-children" point of view upon the issue.
I respect your opinion and I find truth in many things you say, even though I myself haven't thought on the Curse of Mandos from this "angle".
However, I'd only put a word-two as a small reaction to the direction the discussion has taken.

Being a mother myself and knowing perfectly well the feeling when you see your own child for the first time, let me tell you that no parent can ever be ready and be experienced when it comes to bringing up a child! This comes step-by-step through a lot of mistakes and a lot questions and a lot of comic or/and quite troublsome situations...

The only important thing is never to forget - the child is part of your flesh, but s/he is a separate individual.

Most of you here are very young and don't have children, so, remember this lesson from me - treat the children - yours and any other - as individuals equal to you! Because they are!!!

Perhaps this principle of mine makes me sometimes critisize the Valar. You know what I mean and why I do this.

[Finduilas]

Being a mother myself and knowing perfectly well the feeling when you see your own child for the first time, let me tell you that no parent can ever be ready and be experienced when it comes to bringing up a child! This comes step-by-step through a lot of mistakes and a lot questions and a lot of comic or/and quite troublsome situations...

Hey, Lhun, you surprise me too. I have always thought you are at my or GG's age.:)

(I hope this sounded as a compliment as I wanted it to be)

[Lhunithiliel]

Don't you worry!
A lot of people say so.
I guess this is becuase I myself don't admit the presence of all the years passed in my life ;) :)

(There was a song - "Forever young". I guess I have somehow inspired the author) ;)

*******

I would like to invite the members of the Council to PM one another or to openly state their opinion here on whether the 1-st presented lecture should be immortalized in the TolkienWiki knowledgebase

[Finduilas]

I guess this is becuase I myself don't admit the presence of all the years passed in my life

:eek: I din't mean 'all the years', it sounds that if they are many. NO,NO ! I meant you are very talkative and friendly:p :p :p

You are great ,do not change!:)

[Lhunithiliel]

Oh, no! I won't :)

[Mrs. Maggott]

Tch, tch! You two children talking about "years"! I bet I have underwear older than either of you!

:p

[Walter]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
I would like to invite the members of the Council to PM one another or to openly state their opinion here on whether the 1-st presented lecture should be immortalized in the TolkienWiki knowledgebase Well, how could I possibly NOT support this idea... ;)

...but then again, I may be biased... ;)

[Walter]

Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
Tch, tch! You two children talking about "years"! I bet I have underwear older than either of you!

:p Hmmmm, underwear older than Lhun??? I could only hope and pray the underwear of my teenage years would still - or better: again - fit me some ten years from now, if I had anything left from back then ... ;)

[Lhunithiliel]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

:confused: :confused:

:eek: :eek:

:mad:

[Walter]

I'm really sorry if I hurt anyones feelings with my previous post.

It was meant as a joke regarding underwear that is older than ... ummm ... some 20 years and regarding to the fact that my "growing" within the past years has been more "latitudewise" than "longitudewise"...

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Walter
I'm really sorry if I hurt anyones feelings with my previous post.

It was meant as a joke regarding underwear that is older than ... ummm ... some 20 years and regarding to the fact that my "growing" within the past years has been more "latitudewise" than "longitudewise"...
:D
Don't worry! No hurt feelings IF the above highlighted is me!
I know it was a joke! :D :D

Hey! You don't look too "wide" on the photo! ;):p

[Mrs. Maggott]

Yes, the "underwear" comment is said in jest. About ten years ago I bought a comic birthday card for my beloved older sister which said something to the effect, "Why, you aren't old, I have underwear older than you!

Since the two of us used to laugh about the fact that we seldom bought much for ourselves and sometimes our clothing situation (including our underwear) was a joke, the card was very appropriate.

I wish I had the opportunity of buying such silly cards again. My sister passed away late last year.

Anyway, I had hoped it would illustrate the youth of our beloved forum members! Sorry if it was misconstrued.

[Lhunithiliel]

Now, comfortable enough in our underwear ;) :p , let's return to the purpose of this thread.

I would like to say that the first part of Hurin's lecture is extremely interesting and educaative!
Hurin, wherever you are, we all expect the continuation and....
whatever problems might keep you out of the forum, I most sincerely wish you could solve them as favourably , as you'd wish!

I would like to hear more opinions .


Findi, as I'm going to prepare your lecture as an entry to the TolkienWiki knowledgebase, do you think, you could possibly "invent" subtitles for the parts of your lecture?
Thank you!

[Finduilas]

Findi, as I'm going to prepare your lecture as an entry to the TolkienWiki knowledgebase, do you think, you could possibly "invent" subtitles for the parts of your lecture?

hehehe my lecture on Wiki...:p
I can't believe it!

Anyway, how long should they be, the subtitles I mean.

[Lhunithiliel]

It's your call!
Name the parts just as you wish :)

[Elennainie]

Great job on the first part of your lecture, Hurin! :D :) :D I didn't know much about your topic, either the historical warfare or the Middle Earth warfare, and I found it to be an excellent and informative overview, very clearly stated. I hope you'll post more, when you have the opportunity. I'd love to hear about the armor in Middle Earth. I know you are learned on that topic!