Nóm
08-29-2003, 05:51 PM
The Shibboleth - Finwe meets Indis and they love eachother, and then Finwe seeks the counsel of the Valar:
So it came to pass that Finwe and Indis desired to be wedded, and Finwe sought the counsel of the Valar.
But can we assume that this is not a moving forward (from FM4) in time (or events) of Finwe seeking Manwe's counsel which resulted in the Debate, but rather that the debate had happened years before and now he is seeking counsel again?
Also in Shibboleth:
The end of the Debate was that the marriage of Finwe and Indis was sanctioned.
In its context does this have to mean that this marriage to Indis in specific was sanctioned at the Debate, or can we take this as meaning that according to the outcome of the debate, such a marriage is lawful?
Also have this from Shibboleth:
When the matter of Finwe and Indis arose he was disturbed, and filled with anger and resentment; though it is not recorded that he attended the Debate or paid heed to the reasons given for the judgement, or to its terms except in one point...
he = Feanor
Again: does this have to mean a change from FM, that now the debate arises as a result of Finwe and Indis wanting to be married?
In Shibboleth we do not hear that Miriel ever stated that she would never return to life, or even that she wished never to return to life but rather we are told she said 'not yet' multiple times, and 'I desire peace. Leave me in peace here! I will not return. That is my will.' whereas in the FM4 Miriel had claimed that she wished never to return to life.
Can we assume that Miriel did say she would never return but this is just not mentioned in Shibboleth? Or does Tolkien have her now not ever stating she wished never to return?
So it came to pass that Finwe and Indis desired to be wedded, and Finwe sought the counsel of the Valar.
But can we assume that this is not a moving forward (from FM4) in time (or events) of Finwe seeking Manwe's counsel which resulted in the Debate, but rather that the debate had happened years before and now he is seeking counsel again?
Also in Shibboleth:
The end of the Debate was that the marriage of Finwe and Indis was sanctioned.
In its context does this have to mean that this marriage to Indis in specific was sanctioned at the Debate, or can we take this as meaning that according to the outcome of the debate, such a marriage is lawful?
Also have this from Shibboleth:
When the matter of Finwe and Indis arose he was disturbed, and filled with anger and resentment; though it is not recorded that he attended the Debate or paid heed to the reasons given for the judgement, or to its terms except in one point...
he = Feanor
Again: does this have to mean a change from FM, that now the debate arises as a result of Finwe and Indis wanting to be married?
In Shibboleth we do not hear that Miriel ever stated that she would never return to life, or even that she wished never to return to life but rather we are told she said 'not yet' multiple times, and 'I desire peace. Leave me in peace here! I will not return. That is my will.' whereas in the FM4 Miriel had claimed that she wished never to return to life.
Can we assume that Miriel did say she would never return but this is just not mentioned in Shibboleth? Or does Tolkien have her now not ever stating she wished never to return?