Judgement for Round 6: GoE vs. OiE

[Nóm]

Here's the debate. (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=12637)


Official judges:

Beleg - Tolkienology
ithrynluin - Neutral/Guildless
Maedhros - Scholars
Niniel - Periaur
Nóm - GoO/Host

[Nóm]

Major claim of GoE that this had the purpose of reminding Frodo the urgency of the quest and while OiE claimed another purpose, they did not challenge this purpose GoE gives, the closest they come is that one of them claimed there was no purpose. This goes against GoE's claim but without challenging it.

A purpose OiE claimed is that Galadriel did this as a test. Too bad this didn't get explored more... could have been interesting. But the point I take from it is this: OiE claimed Galadriel had a reason for what she did, the purpose of testing.

GoE also claim a purpose was to be sure Frodo understand the graveness of the situation. Too bad this wasn't explored more through questioning of it by OiE.
GoE say:
Frodo looked. The purpose was to ensure that Frodo realised the grave circumstances in which his quest was to take place. Indeed, without Frodo's vision he might not have been weary enough not to trust Boromir. Indeed, after the loss of Gandlaf, Frodo was understandably "distraught", and the 'wake up' call which Galadrial offered, and Frodo openly acccepted, meant that the importance of the quest, which was lost after the loss of Gandlaf, was re-instated. Thus it served the purpose of reminding Frodo of the quest, and a right descision by Galadrial.

and...
Because of her, he saw what would happen if he should fail. Therefore, he chose to continue.
OiE did nothing to argue against those. They only point out that Galadriel did not counsel Frodo one way or the other and that it looks like nothing more than a wan hope. Too bad GoE did not fight against this, it could have been interesting.

OiE say:
So since there was no purpose for the showing and no positive result gained it is obvious that Galadriel was wrong to show Frodo and Sam her “magic” Mirror.

OiE did not show that there was no purpose, but GoE did not show beyond a doubt that something was gained from it but some of the suggestions they made, such as this caused Frodo to be wary of Boromir, went unchallenged.

But even while OiE claim there was no purpose, they name purposes (Sam wanted to see magic, Galadriel was testing, and Galadriel did this out of wan hope - though this one is a motive and not purpose), and of the reasons given by GoE... too many strong ones went unchallenged while OiE successfully argued against points that seemed less to me or were secondary such as: 'but knowledge of what has occured might help in recovering from the setback...' refuted but nothing else of more importance was. Most of the claims of GoE, and those that seem strongest to me, went unchallenged, whereas OiE's case contradicted itself on a major point... the point that there was no purpose. This was a major point because when OiE states the reasoning for why Galadriel was not right, there being no purpose of her action is a huge part of it. But even though OiE states, at least twice, something to the effect of: 'There was no purpose and no positive result therefore Galadriel was wrong' (which, by the way seems like very questionable reasoning to me, but GoE did not question it)... they go one further in their arguement and introduce a crucial element:

As for Frodo he understood even less of what he saw and the only noticeable result of him looking was that he (and possibly Lothlorien also) was endangered when he saw the Eye! Was there any positive result that can be shown to have happened?

Negative effects of Galadriel's action.

And as I side note I had hoped that the possible negative effects of her actions, as well as a questioning of whether or not her action was worth the risk, would have played a part in this debate.

But that statement is to me the strongest point in OiE's case. Without that I'd have given the win to GoE , but with it I have to say this debate was a draw. Maybe this topic can be exlpored more in a discussion... it is a thing I have always wondered about.


Edit********

I just read over my judgement again and realised that last bit I quoted OiE on should have been this part instead:
So then, what about the result of this display? Sam sees a few images that he did not understand followed by some that he most certainly did. This caused him to want to give up the quest and return home by the quickest route he could find. It was only the words of Galadriel that prevented him from doing so. Just imagine the result of the Quest if Galadriel had not been able to change Sam’s mind.

Not that important I guess, but I felt I needed to correct it. Sorry about that!

[Niniel]

My vote goes to the Guild of Elves/Dwarves.
They were able to convince me that, although there may not have been much positive result from Frodo and Sam looking in the mirror, there was at least some: it put the quest into better perspective for Frodo and Sam, reminded Frodo of the importance of it and the consequences if he should fail, and it gave Galadriel an insight into Frodo's mind- which was IMO the most important purpose of the whole thing. Unfortunately the GoE did not elaborate on these points, but only hinted at them.
However, against this the OiE only claimed that looking in the mirror had no good results, but any action should be first judged by its purpose and only later by its result. Also they were not able to really counter the arguments given by the GoE.
Thus my vote goes to the GoE. Congrats guys!

[Ithrynluin]

Gothmog claims that the negative effect of looking into the mirror was that Frodo, and possibly Lórien, were put into danger. To what extent this statement is true, I will not argue. As it stands, it forms a fine argument, or the beginning of one, but GoD/E could did not try to counter it.

Another statement of the OiE is that the mirror sort of showed Sam a crooked vision of what would happen to Frodo. Sam thought Frodo was sleeping, though he was really 'supposedly' dead (!). I don't see why this is a necessarily bad thing. Anyway, this could have been taken to whole new levels of debate!

So much went unexplored here, and topics dealing with Galadriel are my favourite ones! Too bad. OiE had a slightly more difficult side to defend, but they too could have expanded their arguments to a few more points.

A draw.

[Beleg]

Right, the debate was started with the briefest opening post of the Tournament.

There were two main points in the opener.

Posted by Beth
Given that what was shown to Frodo helped him to feel the urgency of their quest, she was right.

Because of her, he saw what would happen if he should fail. Therefore, he chose to continue.


OIE countered that every act should have a solid reason or a successful result behind it to make it valid and this wasn't the case this time. After reading their initial post, I was almost convinced by OIE's side. There reasoning seemed simple yet plausible and they didn't waste time on trifling points but adressed the main matter.
GOE posted a nice, to the point arguement which in itself hold some weight. But I don't agree with Omnipotent Elves claim that the 'importance of the quest was lost after the loss of Gandalf'. The Quest was still equally important and moreso, since Gandalf's fall.

GOE
rarely would someone look into the future and see things they understand, but knowledge of what has occured might help in recovering from the setback


How so and what type of setback? I mean knowledge of future and still failing even with the presence of knowledge would only depen the wound.

OIE posted a successful counter arguement.
I believe this topic wasn't debated thoroughly, many points went undiscussed, many corners not troden but my vote goes to Ost-In-Edhil mainly because felt that their side of arguement was more compelling and more logical. They were not only able to refute GOE arguements, but present some of their own which were left unchallenged.

[Maedhros]

The GoE I felt that they didnt expand on their arguemnts to their fullest extent.
GoE exposed:
Because of her, he saw what would happen if he should fail. Therefore, he chose to continue.

as my team mate suggests, that is indeed right
How am I supposed to know that this is correct with no evidence?

I think that OiE did a much better job of exposing a more clear cut case, with logical evidence of the actions of Galadriel, Frodo and Sam.
My vote goes for OiE.

[Nóm]

OiE won.

Thanks, judges.