The Outcast View On Life! (Which Would Be The Best, Of Course)!

[YayGollum]

Here ya go. Have all kinds of fun with it. Deeply philosophical type things. Save the rants for the ranting type thread.

[Rhiannon]

Well, that sure leaves things wide open, Yay...

Rhiannon's Views on Life:

Tolerance is key. Whatever your views and opinions are, you have to be willing to accept that someone else's views are different (with the obvious exceptions of people not worshipping Eowyn, etc.). This doesn't mean being a pushover- you don't have to sacrifice your views.

Everyone should be able to do things they enjoy. Crafts or landscaping or decorating or sports or anything. And you shouldn't let things like work and stress and things get in the way of spending time doing things you really enjoy, because otherwise it wears you down and eats at you.

You should be proud. You need to have an ego that's not too big and not too small. But you need to be proud of yourself and who you are; not to say that you should ever stop trying to improve yourself, but everyone needs to be able to look the put-downers of the world- those nasty people who put other people down because it makes them feel better- and say 'To heck with you.'

[Dragon]

u must rememeber the difference between ppl and persons. remember that all ppl r stupid, but that doesn't mean persons aren't, just bc sum1 is original doesn' mean they are intelligent or wise.

(rhi is right) everyone is different. u can't help that. variety is what makes us who we are. do not get mad at sum1 for liking something u don'/not liking something u do. people who don't like coconuts and people who do like coconuts can set aside their coconut differences (Amy reference)

(my personal beleifs, not meant to influence anyone else) we are here to amuse. if u wanna dance, dance. who cares if anyone's staring? what're they gonna do about it? if the ppl u don't already know don't wanna b friends w/ u bc u do weird things, that's their problem, and the ppl u r already friends w/ should have accepted u and learned that weird stuff is cool. if they ahven't, that's their problem. don't not do fun things bc "ppl r watching!!!" that's unsmart. if ur not having fun, do whatever (well, almost whatever...) u can to have fun. do funny things a lot. funny is good. we r here to amuse

I know I have more, but I will wait to commentate on other ppls stuffs

[My_Precious]

I heard a lot of references about "popular" people that are negative, and I've to say that I've friends that are "popular" (I personally do not consider them to be any "better" than I am.),party-animals, etc. It is about you, and whether you are open to other people, if you are willing to accept them, and let them accept you.
And I second what was told on the differences... For example, a friend of mine likes a hip-hop&pop radio station, and I like rock and alterntive radio station. So, when we work together and cannot decide which station to put on, we turn on a mexican music station real loud :D...

[balrog]

We all share mortality, we all share chance of death!

Take in and not for granted the people in your life who love you...and give love back to them.

Take a risk, if you fail...at least you have a gain or grain of experience.

Life is what we make of our life!

A quote from Neil Peart:

"life is but the candle...
the dream must give it flame"

[Dragon]

do you mean me, MP?

I don't think poular people are bad, just sheep. popular is fine if you don't go about ti the wrong way:rolleyes:

[My_Precious]

No, not you in particular, Dragon...:) I just heard a lot of negative thoughts about "popular" people coming from Outcasts in general.
I just think that there is always something positive about a person that makes them unique in a way, and worth knowing. :)
Or maybe I'm just a hopeless optimist, eh? ;)

[Sador]

Life is what separates the cradle from the grave.
It is a journey during which you make your own map.
It is a story you make up as you go along.
I've heard it called a sexually transmitted disease with a 100% mortality rate.
It is left to us the living to make life worthwhile, so if your life is not what you want it to be, don't be scared to try to change it. You may not be able to change it, but you'll never know if you don't try.

[Arebeth]

MP, I wrote some negative thought about popular people. But I didn't say they were bad or anything. I mean, some popular people don't have a clue of what tolerance means and never tried to understand anyone. I don't really have a good opinion of them. (It's true of some Outcasts, too...). But most of the time I'm just wondering how they can possibly don't be bored.

Anyway, my view on life... I think everybody should do what they want to do and what they're good at (at the moment my mother wants me to become a doctor or an engineer, I've got the choice :). -She thinks that if I do anything else I'll end up without work, and she's a painter!- I should have been awful at maths and biology, how didn't I think of that???) rather than what they should do because of what people will think. If someone wants to be a actor, a singer, a writer, a politician or I don't know what, if he knows what he's doing, let him. I'm highly ambitious, no one can deny it, but maybe so much that they don't understand. They suggest normal jobs...

Second thing, -an utopy. Nobody should be alone. (I mean having nobody to talk to, nobody who can understand you, nobody who loves you. I'm still a little girl.)

Third thing, stop wondering what people will say. It's the worse thought I know. Don't give up anything you like because of them. What does it change if they think that you're mad, serious, intelligent, arrivist, foolish, different, silly, ambitious, ugly or... You don't care. They'll never do anything interessant anyway, so why do you care about it? (I'm saying that but obviously I care as much as anybody about those things -and even more)

Last thing I can think of, change something about these things called schools that spoil a lot of people's lives for years. (Mine, to begin with) Forget kindergarten. And give children books when they ask for rather than doing as if they could not read. Please.

[Dragon]

hmm.... that part about the jobs is a littel confusing, arebeth

I agree w/ taht last paragraph so much. the only thing that ever got me reading was my competitive spirit (or whatever u wanna call it) the only reason I wanted to read was bc there was a kid who already knew how to read, and I have problems w/ anyone being better at me than anything, so, the first day of kindergarden, I came home and forced my parents to teach me how to read. and none of tat stupid "see jane. see jane run." **** for me. I got real books, that's prolly y I like reading so much better than most ppl, I didn't get a bad first impression:D :rolleyes: :D

oh, and arebeth? what's ur first language?

interessant=french

interesting=english

[Arebeth]

Well, I'm a French speaker who sometimes forgets herself. Sorry for that (You understood me, so maybe that's not so bad...)

I know the part about the jobs was confusing, it's just that I was really upset with that.
My problem in kindergarten was eventually that no other child could read. I remember that once I was reading a book (I think it was "Le petit prince" by Saint-Exupéry, the little Prince or something in English). The teacher came, took the book, and told me that if I wanted a story she could read me one! And then she called my parents and told them that it was not good for a child to read at such a young age (I was four). And then the psy suggested my parents to put me at school but they didn't want to ("it's not good for social developpement" as if I ever knew something of social developpement.)
In fact, I learned to read alone, because I was often sick (and sometimes I pretended being sick just because I didn't want to go there).
But children realise very quickly when someone is "different" you know. And they don't know tolerance. I have very bad memories of kindergarten.

[Rhiannon]

Heh, Arebeth, that gave me a To Kill a Mockingbird flashback. The narrator has the same problem on her first day of school.

On 20/20 yesterday, they had a special on the fact that younger and younger girls are wearing sexier and sexier clothes. The man was in a mall talking to girls, and some of them were saying that they didn't really like the clothes. "Well then...why do you wear them? Is anyone making you?"

"Yeah...we have to. You're not cool if you're not."

And this was when Rhian started yelling 'CONFORMIST SHEEP!' at the screen.

[Kailita]

Ugh...I honestly cannot stand seeing twelve year old girls in low halter tops or strapless shirts...people are in a hurry to get rid of their innocence these days.

I don't have a problem with popular people...as long as popularity doesn't consume them and become the only thing important to them. I have a problem with cool people - yes, there is a difference. Popular people are the ones who know everyone and everyone knows them...that's not necessarily a bad thing as long as it doesn't get out of hand. Cool people - who are usually popular as well - are the ones who are always trying to be better than everyone else, trying to be noticed, putting other people down to climb higher on the social pyramid, losing any sense of individuality to make sure they finish "first". Those kind of people make me sick.

My view on life...I'm not really sure how to condense it into a summary. My views center heavily around Christ and love and selflessness and refusing to conform to what is socially acceptable, remaining true to who you are. But as it is, I will just let the rest of you talk, and I'll comment when I see fit, throwing in my spiel a little bit at a time. ;)

By the way, Yay, you started this thread, what are your opinions?

[The-Elf-Herself]

From a clinical standpoint, I don't have a problem with any sort of people. They all make fascinating subjects to study and test and observe. I may not respect them, but they remain interesting in their own particular way. You are realizing the condescension here, right? ;) Besides, who knows when I'll need to be able to base a character on someone, I have to keep alert for all different types.

Now, from a personal standpoint, I can't stand anyone who's arrogant without cause, ignorant without a good reason, stupid without having some sort of mental impairment(beyond being unwilling to get smart), and living without purpose. That takes care of a lot of the human race in general(and I sometimes wonder, can I REALLY be genetically connected[even in the most remote sense] to these people?) People who refuse to see beyond their own perspective also annoy the heck out of me. To my way of thinking, it is an essential part of life to be able to truly see through another's eyes, and I'm surprised by how many people seem incapable of truly doing that in an objective manner.

Gosh, does that sound really cold? *shrugs* I've often been told that I'm a cold-hearted person. More from my world later, if there's anything to respond to.

[Rhiannon]

That doesn't sound cold at all, Jam! In fact, that sounds a lot like me.

In my perfect world, everyone would be educated, everyone would spend at least some of their time doing something worthwhile (TV only counts if it's the History channel), everyone would be diverse, and everyone would be tolerant.

And there would be no ugly clothes, children would stay children for a reasonable length of time, knee high boots would be readily available in 9 1/9 wides, and I would live in a castle and write and travel for a living.

[Kailita]

Sounds nice to me, Rhi. :) As long as your castle has a moat and a drawbridge. Gotta have a drawbridge. ;)

I really can't stand ignorant people either...especially if they have southern accents. :o I don't mind uneducated...you can't always help it that you don't know things that others do (even though you should always have the opportunity to learn)...but ignorant, to me, means uneducated and stubborn and unwilling to learn.

Stupid people...depends on what kind of stupid. I have a pretty fair amount of patience towards stupidity, but there are certain kinds of stupid that really press my buttons. Arrogance gets really annoying really fast. And living without purpose...sadly, there are a lot of people like that out there. I don't hate them...honestly, I pity them. I'd like to help them.

You're not cold, Jam. Just observant in a stand-offish kind of way. ;) I'm somewhat similar, and I find people fascinating and confusing and interesting as well...but I view them as...well, people, instead of test subjects. I view myself as one of them. But that doesn't mean that I have to like them or be like them. I learn from their mistakes so I don't make the same ones.

[Rhiannon]

especially if they have southern accents.

*mutters*

But you can still come to my castle (which of course has a drawbridge and a moat, not to mention a forest and a loch and a big screen TV).

[YayGollum]

I have seen achingly beautiful and sensible Outcast opinions. I wouldn't know what to add.

How's about ---> There is strength and stupidity in numbers.

Or ---> You're either an Outcast, or you're in denial.

Or ---> Plato ---> To do is to be. Aristotle ---> To be is to do. Sinatra ---> Doobedoobedoo...

Argh! Have fun. Ignore people if you have to. You gots to deal with the types that are still in denial sometime. Search for the Outcasts. Make your own guild of Outcasts everyplace you run into them. I've made real life ones. It's not hard. Have self-confidence, not arrogance. It's okay to think that you're the greatest thing since sliced bread. just remember to be humble, too. Be critical. No one is perfect. Don't idolize anyone so much that you can't see their faults. Always think outside the evil box. It's closed and dark in there. To give is better than to receive. Give laughter. Give inspiration.

[Arebeth]

That was very good, Yay...*thinks of adding an evil "for once"*

I still have problems about
-not idolizing anyone (it doesn't happen often, but when it does...)
-giving laughter (well, maybe I do, but it's not willingly)
-giving more than receiving (who can say "I do"?...)

[YayGollum]

For once? I'm full of achingly intelligent views. oh well. :rolleyes: Anyways, I never wrote that you can't idolize people. I just wrote not to do it too much. Be sensible. What's the problem with giving laughter? The two things that I mentioned were just examples. oh well. I like the exampes. *runs away* Also, I never said what quantities of giving and receiving were required. Nor did I mention saying particular wordses.

[Annushka]

I could add just one more thing to all this! Be able to see the funny side of all not so good things happening to you. Be able to laugh at yourself, cause otherwise nothing makes sense. And you'll be boring to yourself!

And try to have your OWN point of view. Don't let the majority influence it. Think for yourself.

And Rhi was so right - be proud!!! Not arrogant, but proud of yourself, of the things that you did or can do in the future!!!

These are things I'd wanna have!

[Dragon]

I think I am mildly arrogant, but I'll b the first one to admit it.

although, I also feel that I have a small right to be proud, which is y I'm arrogant, all of my proudness kinda ours over into arrogance, but I really am better at a lot of things than a lot of ppl. I'm not trying to brag or exxagerate, but it's true. if stizzles here anywhere, he can vouch for me, I'm good at almost anything I do.

[Arebeth]

I think that often people are arrogant because there was a time when they didn't accept themselves. That's what happened to me when I was 12/13, I was totally rejected in my school and at a time I didn't want to leave my house because I was sure that people would laugh at me. Now I see how ridiculous it was, but I had to become arrogant to get out of that (strangely, people are less mean with arrogant people). Even if it's over I still keep some of this arrogance. I feel fragile without it. If you feel alone, it's much more easier to think "they are all silly anyway and that's why those fooly normal people aren't interested in me" than "maybe I have a problem, why are they all asked out and I'm not?".

[laurelindorenan]

Hey people.

Some very good points of view. Totally agree, twelve year olds should not be going around wearing practically nothing. They will catch a cold.

The world should be changed around you know. The `cool` people should be the outcasts, the original people. Or maybe there shouldn`t be cool and uncool.

Who cares if youre asked out or not? You gotta think, well, do I want to go out with this beautiful but nonetheless narrowminded person anyway? Am I doing things just because everyone else dous it? Be yourself man, and get with your own groove!

[YayGollum]

Thank you. Anyways, older people get less colds than younger people? oh well. just wondering. Also, are you sure that you people are talking about arrogance instead of self-confidence? oh well. I just like that idea better than the other. I don't know why I'm arrogant or self-confident. Probably just because I'm better than everyone else. sorry about that. Not my fault. :rolleyes:

[Arebeth]

Last time I tried to explain that they almost shot me down:)

And, no, I don't care if I'm asked out or not, nor of doing things everybody does, but I was talking about twelve years old.

The whole problem is precisely to make the difference between arrogance and self-confidence. I suppose that self-confidence means something like "I'm great and I know it" and arrogance is more "I'm great, I know it and all those (normal) people are useless"???:D

[My_Precious]

Get your beauty sleep regularly. It is very important...:D
What's the point of getting up early if you don't have to? To watch garbage trucks driving around? ;)

[YayGollum]

Yes! Thank you! But then, didn't we already talk about night people and morning people? oh well. Anyways, If I'm paying attention to this Arebeth person's definitions, I must be arrogant. oh well. We should all strive to leave the last part off and just ignore the nasssty and boring and inferior (Whoops!) normal types. Because you're either an Outcast, or you're in denial. They're still in denial. Very sad.

[My_Precious]

Of course you're arrogant. Just look at your signature...:D
And yes, we already talked about the importance of sleep, and since then my sleep deprivation have just been growing. *Probably should go to bed right now instead of typing this* *sigh*

[Annushka]

I always thought that arrogance means putting others down. Acting rude or tactless etc. There's nothing wrong with thinking you're better or the best. In fact I think to be able to achieve something you have to be sure you're good at what you do! And there's much more you're capable of.

And about worrying about not being asked out (my sentences are sometimes quite messy). It's kinda useless, cause the point is not to be dying of boredom during the date. And if you accept the offers just to be on a date there's a very big chance of that (being bored).

[Rhiannon]

Arrogance is thinking you are better than you are.

[YayGollum]

My little signature thing makes me seem arrogant? How's that? Humorous Bombadillion Number Three? Yay me? That's bad? Vote Gollum for president because you're preciousss? That's beautiful! Mr. T.T.F.? A title thrown at me by adoring fans? Not my fault. *runs away* Anyways, okay, I probably am arrogant. But at least I feel bad about it every now and then.

[Arebeth]

If you're arrogant anyway, what's the point in feeling bad about it???:D

[YayGollum]

*sniff* just because. Why should I want to be evil? just being self-confident sounds nice and neutral enough for me. oh well. *runs away*

[Saucy]

hey being arrogant is better then being self critical:D

[YayGollum]

Why would you think that? Criticism is good, no matter where it comes from. Well, mostly the constructive type, though. Doobedoobedoo... what else? Outcast Type Views On Life. Hm. There are no others? What a sad ending.

[Kailita]

Two things.

One: Can't arrogance also be self-confidence pushed in other people's faces? There's nothing wrong with knowing that your good at something...but when you're always bragging about it, it gets annoying fast, and that can be classified as arrogance, can't it?

Two: Criticism is not always good. It can be very destructive when given the wrong way...and it's very easy to give criticism the wrong way. The only good kind of criticism, in my opinion, is "the constructive type", which is best when given gently. But then again, this is coming from a sensitive person...maybe those of you with tougher skin can take harder criticism. ;)

Outcast Type Views on Life. That is a very broad subject, Yay. Do you think you could narrow it down a little bit? Then it will be easier for us to respond...

[YayGollum]

But if I narrow it down, less will be said. oh well. It's not a huge deal. Outcasts have already shown up to toss opinions around. What's wrong with just standing around and waiting for more to show up? *hides* oh well. Let me see here.

To the first thing ---> Sure, why not? But then, you could always be arrogant and not self-confident at the same time. That would just be evil and annoying without any reason, though. oh well.

To the second thing ---> I'd just want to change the last part of that first sentence to ---> take criticism the wrong way. I am not a fan of the overly sensitive types. I appreciate people tossing constructive criticism at me however the tone is. Destructive criticism has no use besides letting the person tossing it have all kinds of fun with being evil.

[Rhiannon]

I don't think it's possible to be arrogant and not confident- it's possible to seem arrogant as a cover for not being confident, but being truly arrogant is a state of mind.

An evil state of mind.

[YayGollum]

Ah. Okay. But then, seeming arrogant is still being arrogant to even one person. So Ha! :rolleyes:

[My_Precious]

Originally posted by Rhiannon
I don't think it's possible to be arrogant and not confident- it's possible to seem arrogant as a cover for not being confident, but being truly arrogant is a state of mind.

An evil state of mind.
Reminds me of myself in the third grade. Everybody though I was a little ignorant witch, but it reality I was just trully misundersood...;) I was a sweet little angel, just perhaps lacking some confidence.:D

[Rhiannon]

Me too, Precious! 10-13, lots of people thought I was stuck up because I was shy and read books and used words they didn't understand (one of the funnier in retrospect moments of my life- there was this snot-nosed kid who liked to torment me, and I called him 'horrid'. And the girls thought I was calling him a hor. 'No no no- not 'hor'. I don't know what a 'hor' is. 'Horrid.' They never did get it).

But I was predisposed to be miserable at the time, too. I was a nasty little thing. But they were too, so out in the cosmos we're all even.

But an OUTCAST VIEW ON LIFE: Racial prejudice is an evil, hateful thing and it makes me sick.

[Kailita]

Originally posted by Rhiannon
I don't think it's possible to be arrogant and not confident- it's possible to seem arrogant as a cover for not being confident, but being truly arrogant is a state of mind.

An evil state of mind.
I agree.

Originally posted by YayGollum
Ah. Okay. But then, seeming arrogant is still being arrogant to even one person. So Ha!
To this all I have to say is: :confused:

Originally posted by Rhi
Me too, Precious! 10-13, lots of people thought I was stuck up because I was shy and read books and used words they didn't understand
Gah! That seems to be the affliction of many elementary school age Outcastses, especially girls. All the girls my age used to think I was stuck up, too. I wasn't incredibly shy, but I was smart and I loved to read and had a fairly wide vocabulary. But I never made a big deal about it or pretended to be smarter than anyone else...they filled in those blanks on their own. It's funny how people will do that...

Another one from Rhi
(one of the funnier in retrospect moments of my life- there was this snot-nosed kid who liked to torment me, and I called him 'horrid'. And the girls thought I was calling him a hor. 'No no no- not 'hor'. I don't know what a 'hor' is. 'Horrid.' They never did get it).
That's just hilarious. :D "Horrid" is really a lovely British-sounding word, especially coming from a precocious preteen girl. ;)

Yet another one from Rhi
But I was predisposed to be miserable at the time, too. I was a nasty little thing. But they were too, so out in the cosmos we're all even.
You know, I find that really interesting, because it's almost opposite for me. I was a very happy, optimistic little girl. The cheery, smiley, friendly one with the curly red hair. But the older I get, the more melancholy I become. I have more of a tendency (though mild) towards pessimism and depression these days. Maybe school and teenage society is taking its toll on me. I really don't know. It would be interesting to find out...

Last one by Rhi, I promise...
OUTCAST VIEW ON LIFE: Racial prejudice is an evil, hateful thing and it makes me sick.
I agree! I think most people will these days...or at least Americans. (I hesitate to say anything for other countries, just because I really don't know very much about their stances, but I would think they would feel the same.) Tolerance is becoming more and more important in the USA. So was that just a random impulse, Rhi, or did something inspire it?

[Rhiannon]

You know, I find that really interesting, because it's almost opposite for me. I was a very happy, optimistic little girl. The cheery, smiley, friendly one with the curly red hair. But the older I get, the more melancholy I become. I have more of a tendency (though mild) towards pessimism and depression these days. Maybe school and teenage society is taking its toll on me. I really don't know. It would be interesting to find out...

I was happy and optomistic. Smiley, friendly, talked all the time, the whole nine yards. Sunshine Girl, remember. But she died a rather abrupt death- We moved. And I hated the move. And I made no friends. And for three years I was an object of scorn and I scorned them right back.

But I think I prefer the person I am now to the person I would have been if I hadn't 'been through fire', so to speak. I think my character is stronger, and I'm certainly cooler ;)
Maybe being depressed and pessimistic is one of those rights of passage that makes us who we are.

So was that just a random impulse, Rhi, or did something inspire it?

I just finished reading Noughts & Crosses by Malorie Blackman; it's about an alternate universe Britain where the skin colors are reversed. Basically it's about the civil rights movement, and reading it brought to the service how violently I hate racial intolerance. And me a Southern girl, I occaisonally have serious issues with some of the people around me. Mostly older people, though. There's some hope for the future generation, thank God.

[My_Precious]

Originally posted by Kailita

You know, I find that really interesting, because it's almost opposite for me. I was a very happy, optimistic little girl. The cheery, smiley, friendly one with the curly red hair. But the older I get, the more melancholy I become. I have more of a tendency (though mild) towards pessimism and depression these days. Maybe school and teenage society is taking its toll on me. I really don't know. It would be interesting to find out...

Doesn't everybody get depressed these days? Maybe it's the weather... Sort of sad because I love Fall. Or maybe it's just that we start college, all of our friends are away, and we have to start from scratch. Maybe it's not so bad for me, I'm going to a junior college nearby my house, but my friends are still away, and I wish I have gone to a 4-year school as well. I was actually looking forward to it...:(
Rant: I owe my library $20 fee, which I don't really want to pay out because for that money I could buy that book, but I need to pay it off, because I want to read. (Should've returned that video on time, and paid straight away, it would've been less.)

[YayGollum]

I don't get depressed. People just say that I look like I am. oh well. I'm too much of a pessimist (or a realist, whichever you decide) to get depressed.

Anyways, what I meant by that quote of mine that someone tossed around was ---> The Rhiannon person was saying that you had to have confidence to be arrogant and that anyone who didn't have the confidence could only seem arrogant. I then pointed out that if even one person thinks you're ignorant, then you most definitely are. At least to them. oh well.

Anyways, I haven't run into too much racial discrimination type things over here. sorry about that. Some representatives of races that aren't mine asked me if I was racist just because I was evil and standoffish like you people said you were. With the books and the big words and the hiding in corners and not being sociable. oh well. They were just being culturally discriminatory that time. My culture ---> The Outcast type.

[My_Precious]

Originally posted by YayGollum
I don't get depressed. People just say that I look like I am. oh well. I'm too much of a pessimist (or a realist, whichever you decide) to get depressed.

Nice way to look on life. No disappointments, and sometimes life brings you unexpected nice surprises.

[Kailita]

Originally posted by Rhiannon
But I think I prefer the person I am now to the person I would have been if I hadn't 'been through fire', so to speak. I think my character is stronger, and I'm certainly cooler
Maybe being depressed and pessimistic is one of those rights of passage that makes us who we are.

Sounds good to me. How old were you when you moved that time, Rhi? Was that when you moved to Japan? Gah...I would never survive the life of a base kid. :(

As an introspective person, I've got to take some time every now and then to sit and reflect. The thing about that is that when you're honest with yourself about who you are and who you've been - when you're really honest, brutally honest - it can be depressing at how much you disappoint yourself. Or maybe that's just me. :rolleyes:

I think a lot of my pessimism/depression springs from my friends leaving this summer...I was really really quite attached to them, more than I realized even in June, as they were getting ready to leave. "Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you got til it's gone?" And I'm a reminiscent person, so that doesn't help very much. I still miss them a lot, and it shows more than I thought it did on the outside. I don't smile as much...I'm sad or melancholy a lot more. And I know that I can't keep living in the past...I've got to force myself to come to terms with the fact that they're not here and they never will be here, maybe ever again, and that I just have to keep on living despite that fact. I do keep on living...but I want a life that is more than just surviving, just dealing with the circumstances. I want to be more than fine, more than bent on getting by, more than just okay. I want to transcend the circumstances and become a stronger person because of it.

Anyway. That was a brief glimpse into Kailita's conflicted mind. :rolleyes: In other news: Yes, I believe there is hope for the future generation as far as less discrimination...I love fall, too...and the Outcast type is definitely the best culture. :)

[Rhiannon]

Sounds good to me. How old were you when you moved that time, Rhi? Was that when you moved to Japan? Gah...I would never survive the life of a base kid.

That was the move from Georgia to Illinois, when I was ten. I had already hit puberty and was...er, 'developed' by then. Not fun. The Japan move was actually really good for me. Japan is cool.

As an introspective person, I've got to take some time every now and then to sit and reflect. The thing about that is that when you're honest with yourself about who you are and who you've been - when you're really honest, brutally honest - it can be depressing at how much you disappoint yourself. Or maybe that's just me.

Oh yes. Absolutely. I have to have a certain amount of time spent off on my own, isolated, or I go crazy. And I have to spend time working out who I am. It keeps changing on me.

[Arebeth]

You are right, you have to go through these things to became stronger. "All the things that don't kill you make you stronger".
It's strange, because when I left my native city (in fact it's only 80km far but for us in Belgium it's like an ocean...:D ), I didn't cry or miss it or anything, although I had friends there. I "had friends". But even my best friend did not understand me. Oh, or maybe she did, I can't remember. It all seem so far and I already felt alone... I was really close to her, I think. And now... She seems so normal, she wants to be a doctor like her father and to study in her home city and she's gently in love with a boy of her school and... Oh God. I envy her and pity her in the same time.
Then I moved to Waterloo and ended up in an awful posh school where people made fun of me all the time. I used to cry every day when I got home, when I was, say, 13. Now... I don't have much friends, but... I'm self-confident, I smile, I even look good on pictures. And I'm still lost. And they still look at me as if I was an alien. And there is still this so-complicated story about... But I'm going off-topic here.
And you will become a stronger person. You couldn't help it even if you wanted to. One day you will realize that, but not yet. I feel like I could move anywhere and not need anyone, like I was free... Of course I'm not, but it's good to feel like that. If I'm dependant of something, I haven't got here either, so what would it change? And I don't care of...
I started writing again, last night.
Oh, I'm really sorry for writing always the same things. But Kailita,
I know it's hard, but at least you have had friends that understood you, and that's a chance that everyone doesn't have. I thinks sometimes it helps to grow up. But... I'm not sure I like being grown up... (Yes, I know I am not, but anyway). I can't imagine the future anymore. I have to live. And sometimes I'm not sure I live. That scares me.:confused:

[My_Precious]

Originally posted by Rhiannon
Not fun. The Japan move was actually really good for me. Japan is cool.

Ooh, I envy you so much! I want to go to Japan (I'm gonna start taking Japanese next semester), I love anime, and Japanese culture fascinates me!:)

[Talierin]

I got really depressed last year in october, november, and december... and now that I think about it, a lot of it was emotional issues from when Cir came to visit in oct. we did some things that I really regret now (nothing BAD, but just little things that have plagued my mind), and when he had to go home it was more than I could handle, and I got super-depressed about it and other things. I lost nearly 20 lbs. Worst Christmas I ever had that year... My mom finally took me to a shrink which did help, but meeting mac helped most of all :) I'm still not sure now if it was a good experience to go through. There's still some things even now a year later that I struggle with. One thing I've noticed is that I'm a lot more sarcastic than I ever was, which sometimes isn't a good thing :rolleyes: And something that's funny, Cir and I aren't even friends anymore... I guess it was pretty much a doomed friendship...

[Annushka]

I was very happy and pieceful all spring. And then certain things changed everything. I lost control, I realized that I'm not strong at all. That it's very easy to hurt me. Now I'm trying to gain back all that I had. It's working, but still I know that however protected I feel now, that's only an illusion. The funny things is that it makes me more confident. Cause Arebeth is absolutely right - things that don't kill us only make us stronger.

I'm very sleepy these days. It's raining all the time and if I sound a little random please don't pay attention!!!:)

[Kailita]

Arebeth, I don't know what it is about you, but every post of yours that I read really makes me admire you. You've been through a lot. One question that's pretty unrelated but made me curious - you said your friend was "gently" in love with a boy...what does that mean? Maybe it's something different in French...

Originally posted by Arebeth
All the things that don't kill you make you stronger
I've never really understood that phrase. I mean, sure it's true in some circumstances, and we love hearing stories about people who went through hardship and came through the better for it. But some things that don't kill you are still bad enough to make you bitter and cold and unhappy. And what's the point in being "strong" if those three things go along with it?

Originally posted by Arebeth
But Kailita, I know it's hard, but at least you have had friends that understood you, and that's a chance that everyone doesn't have.
That's very true. There have been very few people who really understand me...I have so many different sides to me, and sometimes show more than one side at a time or only certain sides around certain people...but I have had about half a handful of people who have really known me as a whole. And I'm very thankful for that.

Originally posted by Arebeth
I have to live. And sometimes I'm not sure I live. That scares me.
What exactly do you mean...? You're not sure that you're getting everything out of life?

I've felt very Outcasted lately...but not in my usual ways. Maybe "estranged" is the better word...ostracized, cut off. I used to be Outcasted because I was different and I enjoyed it and had fun doing crazy, un-normal things. And I am still like that. But now, more and more, I find myself wandering off on my own, being more of a loner. I'm very observant of people at school...I know who they are, where they hang out, who their friends are, I see them talking and laughing, I know so many things about them...but they know absolutely nothing about me. And they don't really care. Sometimes it's almost like being invisible.

Don't say I'm out of touch
With this rampant chaos, your reality
I know well what lies beyond my sleeping refuge
The nightmare I built my own world to escape

In my field of paper flowers
And candy clouds of lullabye
I lie inside myself for hours
And watch my purple sky fly over me

(Evanescence)

[Rhiannon]

I've never really understood that phrase. I mean, sure it's true in some circumstances, and we love hearing stories about people who went through hardship and came through the better for it. But some things that don't kill you are still bad enough to make you bitter and cold and unhappy. And what's the point in being "strong" if those three things go along with it?

Only if you let it, right? If you can go through fire and be stronger for it, without letting it undercut your spirit, that's what we want, isn't it?

[The-Elf-Herself]

I've never really understood that phrase. I mean, sure it's true in some circumstances, and we love hearing stories about people who went through hardship and came through the better for it. But some things that don't kill you are still bad enough to make you bitter and cold and unhappy. And what's the point in being "strong" if those three things go along with it?

I agree with you Kai. I've been through some really nasty stuff lately(home problems, as usual, I hate it, I really want to leave but at the same time I know I can't) and while I can say I'm definitely tougher and stronger, aka more resistance to other people and even better at wearing a mask over myself, there are times when I wish I could just be a little less..I dunno. Read my latest stuff on the poetry thread, I've been writing reams of that sort lately. Bleh.

That's very true. There have been very few people who really understand me...I have so many different sides to me, and sometimes show more than one side at a time or only certain sides around certain people...but I have had about half a handful of people who have really known me as a whole. And I'm very thankful for that.

Well, that's another thing-what happens when the people you thought knew you as a whole actually seem to not know you at all? People I'd call my best friends aren't really anything like that, I'm just showing them a few sides of me instead of one, but it's not really all of me, not even slightly. Were some of those people who left the kind that knew you that closely Kai? If so, I can really understand the loss, but in this case, I almost envy you for having had that for at least a while.

Ah, the joys of estrangement. Lovely. It's weird, sometimes it seems like I'd never want to really be a part of the lives I observe, the 'normal' stuff, and other times I'd just like one person to get it, to even want to try and understand me, and someone who'd be worth my time to really get to know. *wishes that she could meet with some of the outcasts in person* There's like this barrier that prevents me from getting any closer to people than I can 'handle', I think I created it myself sometime within the past year. Ah well. At least when I get online I can talk to people without all that and at least there I'm safe, in a sense.

[Kailita]

Originally posted by Rhiannon
Only if you let it, right? If you can go through fire and be stronger for it, without letting it undercut your spirit, that's what we want, isn't it?
Yes, and that's what I'm really striving for. To rise up in spite of the circumstances and float on top of them instead of being crushed or consumed underneath them, so that one day I can look back and see how far I've come instead of having to regret all the wasted nothingness time.

Originally posted by The-Elf-Herself
Well, that's another thing-what happens when the people you thought knew you as a whole actually seem to not know you at all? People I'd call my best friends aren't really anything like that, I'm just showing them a few sides of me instead of one, but it's not really all of me, not even slightly.
I hear you, Jam. More and more I am learning what that is. My personality wasn't always so conflicting, but that's because I wasn't always so multi-dimensional. The older I get, the more traits I take on. Hence more confusion. :rolleyes: I think I change - not to fit in, but just because it's what my subconscious does - to fit the people I'm around. But not to be like them; to balance them out. Around my peppy, optimistic friend, I'm the sometimes cynical, grounded realist. Around my more sophisticated, practical friend, I'm more random and crazy and more of a dreamer. And when the three of us are together, it's mixes of both. And here online it's kind of the same...different sides of me come out at different times. Weird. I play off of the people around me subconsciously.

But it's not like I don't have a sense of who I am. It's just the different parts of who I am are sometimes conflicting and can be confusing and fickle.

Originally posted by Jam
Were some of those people who left the kind that knew you that closely Kai? If so, I can really understand the loss, but in this case, I almost envy you for having had that for at least a while.
Only one. And...I know I've heard loads of girls say this about guys they like...but I've honestly never met anyone like him before. It took us a while to really open up to each other and get on the same page...the better part of three years...but after and even during that process, we both connected, on a lot of different levels, in a way that I've never connected with anyone - not even my best girl friends. He was really the best friend I've ever had.

Originally posted by Jam
Ah, the joys of estrangement. Lovely. It's weird, sometimes it seems like I'd never want to really be a part of the lives I observe, the 'normal' stuff, and other times I'd just like one person to get it, to even want to try and understand me, and someone who'd be worth my time to really get to know.
My thoughts exactly. I don't think it's so much wanting to be part of the "normal" stuff...it's just wanting to be a part of something, wanting to belong somewhere, wanting to be wanted, to be missed. Or that's what it is for me, anyway. A lot of times I wander off and no one asks where I went or why...sometimes I wonder if they even notice I'm gone. And then I start to think that I'm selfish to expect that from them in the first place...

[Arebeth]

Kailita, do not think I've been through a lot. That's not true. I know that's not true. I"ve just been an outcast for a long time, that's all. I haven't got family problems, school problems or anything. I'm just asocial and I suppose that in a way it's my fault, now that don't care anymore, even if it wasn't originally. In my case it has pretty much to do with the fact that I'm a sort of gifted child, and now I realize it's a chance. I could have the opportunity to do things the other won't. I'm ambitous and I know I must be happy to be able to make these ambitions come true. I'm sorry if this seem conceited, really I don't mean to, but people always think so when you say you're talented. As I wouldn't have prefered to be normal.
And about the things that make us stronger, of course I can only speak for me, and I know the bad times I've been through made me grow up. I've always been more "mature" (I HATE this word, but I don't really can write exaclty how I would like to, because I don't even speak English in an acceptable way. I know some people like it when I write, sometimes, but I wouldn't have thought that the fact of writing about my social problems in a language I don't master would interest anyone, Kailita. But I'm very flattered that you like my posts. Strange.:rolleyes: I really love this place.:D ), and in the same time I never wanted to grow up so fast. I like to be a child. I like to have my silly illusions and I don't understand them when they want to spoil theirs.
As Rhia said, the important is what you want. I became stronger the day I decided that I had to wake up and face them. And then I realize that the fact of making the decision of being proud of what I am itself was a proof that I was worth something. (Sorry if I don't make myself clear) If I didn't have done that, I don't know where I would be today. I always said my ambition saved me. But they don't understand. For a change.
My problem at the moment is that I'd give anything to go study economy in a British university in 2005. It seems silly but that's what I call a child's dream. I never imagined to study here in Belgium. My parents think I should first graduate here and then... Then it will be late, too late, I'll be 22 and maybe I would have forgotten my dream. And I would fit. Because without dreams I'm nothing more than they are. That's what I'm afraid of. I understand they don't want me to go, but my mother think I just want to leave home or... I tried to explain. Apart of the fact that I'm probaly not good enough in English and stuff, I'm scared because I feel I'll follow their advice, stay here. Forever. And fit in the crowd. And I've always thought I had the power to dream bigger. I don't want to spoil it. I gave up a lot of silly plans before deciding to study economics, to do something serious. Serious... I'm becoming like them all. Be serious. Be normal. Oh God. Don't allow that. You can't allow that.
I'm afraid of spoiling my chances, all the things I fought for and cried for. I thought it was worth my tears and I was right. But not if I fail. Not if I give up. I've always despised people who gave up and that's exactly what I'm becoming. Is that being grown-up?

Remember that all the things you're suffering will help you later. You may not be able to imagine that, but they will find you one day. They will tell you to go on. I believe in God because I know he helped me in those days. Another idea they don't understand. They are never alone. They never think. How could they understand the fact of believeing in God? So they are sure they are far more intelligent because they are atheists. And I let them. I don't argue: they are not worth it. But, you know, I've always been kind of cold. And in the same time I'm idealist, I believe in complete love and what I write correspond. I stopped writing for two months lately. I needed to sleep I think. But know I will star agin. I can't survive too long without writing those silly stories of mine.
This must be the longest post I've ever written... Mmm, I hope you got to the end before falling asleep ordeciding that I was finally ininteressant :) . I was 7 and my writings were already too long. I never lost the habit.

[Rhiannon]

More and more I am learning what that is. My personality wasn't always so conflicting, but that's because I wasn't always so multi-dimensional. The older I get, the more traits I take on. Hence more confusion.

When I was having my depressed spasm the other day, I sorted out my different personalites and named them:
Charis
Charis is the wallflower, the silent, shy, fragile one. She is easily hurt, she cries often, she is full of dreams, but also discouraged. She is the softer, sweeter side of me; the fey side. The one that favors silver mist, great open silences
Theme song: No One Knows Who I Am from 'Jekyll & Hyde'

Kat
Sometimes I think Kat is my dominant personality. Kat is so much stronger than Charis. She is vibrant, and laughing, bright colors and vivid images. She's imaginative, sees the world in terms of honour and glory and ladies and knights. She loves play-acting more than anything else. She is the part of me that loves costumes, drama, lights, sunsets; the part that cries out to be unique.
Theme song: Make Your Own Kind of Music by the Mommas and the Papas

Rhiannon
Rhiannon is perhaps not stronger than Kat, but she is bolder: She has a harder edge. She has a swagger, a temper, a wise-crack; she can be harsher- she too works to be different, but as a badge of honor- I can be anything I want. You can't stop me. I am different, I am greater- Rhiannon wants to be an Outcast, she wants to show the 'normal' people up. She tosses her head defiantly, she wears black, she has a direct stare, she is the part of me that is stubborn, sharp-tongued, argumenative, bossy.
Theme song: SuperGirl by Krystal Harris

Wormtongue
Wormtongue is the hissing, whispering voice that cuts away at everything I am, that comes and wears away at my strength, that tells me I'm worthless, that tells me no one cares for me, that if I were lost no one would look for more, that no one would miss me, that see this person is loved more than you, and this person is smarter than you and no one has a place for you, you will be pushed out, no one has time for you, no one has room for you, they like other people better than you...

and the elusive Eowyn
This is the name I give to the me-I-want-to-be. The pinnacle. The melding of Charis and Kat and Rhiannon, the cutting away of Wormtongue, to go through fire and be cleansed and healed and strong. Elusive, because I don't feel like I'll ever get there.

....Yes, I do use books to illustrate everything.

It's just the different parts of who I am are sometimes conflicting and can be confusing and fickle.
Exactly!

And Arebeth, that was a great post!

[The-Elf-Herself]

I have to agree, that's a really good post Arebeth.

Wow, that's quite a collection you've got there Rhian. Very nice.

I hear you, Jam. More and more I am learning what that is. My personality wasn't always so conflicting, but that's because I wasn't always so multi-dimensional. The older I get, the more traits I take on. Hence more confusion. I think I change - not to fit in, but just because it's what my subconscious does - to fit the people I'm around. But not to be like them; to balance them out. Around my peppy, optimistic friend, I'm the sometimes cynical, grounded realist. Around my more sophisticated, practical friend, I'm more random and crazy and more of a dreamer. And when the three of us are together, it's mixes of both. And here online it's kind of the same...different sides of me come out at different times. Weird. I play off of the people around me subconsciously.

But it's not like I don't have a sense of who I am. It's just the different parts of who I am are sometimes conflicting and can be confusing and fickle.


I understand exactly! That's the way I am as well, although I think I'm a little more controlled of how I act. I'll purposely act in different ways to provoke responses to study. I just wish someone would realize what I'm doing now and then; it's kind of depressing that the greater part of humanity can be so easily manipulated. I expect more. Oh well. The thing is, I think I've always been this way, to a certain extent: even when I was a kid I'd try to smooth things over by shifting my behavior, or see what I could get away with(yes, I was a devious little kid, who also happened to be 'adorable, with cute chubby cheeks' :rolleyes: ; however, it was mostly beneficial and I usually got caught).

My thoughts exactly. I don't think it's so much wanting to be part of the "normal" stuff...it's just wanting to be a part of something, wanting to belong somewhere, wanting to be wanted, to be missed. Or that's what it is for me, anyway. A lot of times I wander off and no one asks where I went or why...sometimes I wonder if they even notice I'm gone. And then I start to think that I'm selfish to expect that from them in the first place...

Yeah, that's definitely part of it. The whole feeling is part of me wanting to take part, and part of me completely happy that I'm an outsider. So when I'm left out of something, part of me will feel sort of lonely, but then I'll think that 'if I'm not going to be open with them, why should they bother with me?' and since it's nearly impossible for me to be completely open with anyone(and no one's been persistent enough to make me want to open up), I just figure that I'm at an impasse and listen to some music or read.

Remember that all the things you're suffering will help you later. You may not be able to imagine that, but they will find you one day. They will tell you to go on. I believe in God because I know he helped me in those days.

Oh man, you don't know how much I need to hear that. I know the only reason I'm not a teen runaway or majorly acting-out at this stage is because He's been watching out for me, but one tends to forget when one is very busy dealing with life in general.

Another idea they don't understand. They are never alone. They never think. How could they understand the fact of believeing in God? So they are sure they are far more intelligent because they are atheists. And I let them. I don't argue: they are not worth it. But, you know, I've always been kind of cold. And in the same time I'm idealist, I believe in complete love and what I write correspond. I stopped writing for two months lately. I needed to sleep I think. But know I will star agin. I can't survive too long without writing those silly stories of mine.
This must be the longest post I've ever written... Mmm, I hope you got to the end before falling asleep ordeciding that I was finally ininteressant . I was 7 and my writings were already too long. I never lost the habit.

Huzzah! The GOO loves writers! Pretty much the only things that really get me through anymore(besides God) is writing and music(listening to it and playing it).

[Rhiannon]

Wow, that's quite a collection you've got there Rhian. Very nice.

I just like that they (I?) all have theme songs :D

Really accurate, I think, though. Goodness...

[Kailita]

Wow.

...

Wow.

...

Yeah. Wow again. I don't know what to say, you guys, other than I love you all so much - all your different points of view that strangely seem to relate to each other and the way you're all so willing to give advice and share experience - and GOO is the best place in the world to sort out your feelings and be yourself.

Rhi...your personality chart was magnificent...that is exactly how I feel. I need to do something like that, just to see it all written out and know where the conflicting ideas and feelings are coming from and what my different sides are. Though I don't think I'm as well-read as you are to go so far as finding book characters (not to mention theme songs ;)) for each one.

Originally posted by Arebeth
Remember that all the things you're suffering will help you later. You may not be able to imagine that, but they will find you one day. They will tell you to go on. I believe in God because I know he helped me in those days. Another idea they don't understand. They are never alone. They never think. How could they understand the fact of believeing in God? So they are sure they are far more intelligent because they are atheists. And I let them. I don't argue: they are not worth it. But, you know, I've always been kind of cold. And in the same time I'm idealist, I believe in complete love and what I write correspond. I stopped writing for two months lately. I needed to sleep I think. But know I will star agin. I can't survive too long without writing those silly stories of mine.
Arebeth, in a somewhat obscure way, you are an inspiration to me. I don't always understand completely the phrasing of your sentences, but the essence in your posts comes across strongly and the words no longer matter...it's the deep emotions behind the words that count, and I can feel them.

Originally posted by The-Elf-Herself
The whole feeling is part of me wanting to take part, and part of me completely happy that I'm an outsider. So when I'm left out of something, part of me will feel sort of lonely, but then I'll think that 'if I'm not going to be open with them, why should they bother with me?' and since it's nearly impossible for me to be completely open with anyone(and no one's been persistent enough to make me want to open up), I just figure that I'm at an impasse and listen to some music or read.
Yes...the conflict between wanting to belong and taking pride in being different. I've been there.

Originally posted by Jam
Oh man, you don't know how much I need to hear that. I know the only reason I'm not a teen runaway or majorly acting-out at this stage is because He's been watching out for me, but one tends to forget when one is very busy dealing with life in general.

Yes indeed. Someday, Jam...someday when all of these present problems have faded away or been overcome...you will turn out to be one of those spectacular, inspiring people that the world has so few of. People probably still won't understand you...but they will respect you. And you will find someone...someone out there...who will learn who you really are, every single aspect, I'm sure of it.

What I really want to say is that it helps so much to know that I'm not the only one who's struggling, who's trying to really pinpoint who I am. I used to take a lot of pride back around 6th and 7th grade that I knew who I was and I never questioned it. But I've come so far from those days...so many things have changed around me...I've changed. And it's good to know that I'm not the only one. I won't give up if all of you don't. We can be in this crazy journey together.

[Arebeth]

Originally posted by Kailita

Arebeth, in a somewhat obscure way, you are an inspiration to me. I don't always understand completely the phrasing of your sentences, but the essence in your posts comes across strongly and the words no longer matter...it's the deep emotions behind the words that count, and I can feel them.

:D :D :D
Once again I'm so sorry for my awful English. But I suppose what's important is that you understand me...:)

Seriously, you are just right, everybody here writes great things. I didn't even think to thank you (I'm unforgivable):) . And I loved your last sentence:) .

[Rhiannon]

Yeah. Wow again. I don't know what to say, you guys, other than I love you all so much - all your different points of view that strangely seem to relate to each other and the way you're all so willing to give advice and share experience - and GOO is the best place in the world to sort out your feelings and be yourself.

Hear, hear! *raises glass of bubbly British lemonade* To the GOO!

Rhi...your personality chart was magnificent...that is exactly how I feel.

Thanks! I think it really helps, when I'm upset for no real reason, to work out 'who' it is I'm being, and then work out backwards what started me off. Profitable, and it distracts me.

Though I don't think I'm as well-read as you are to go so far as finding book characters (not to mention theme songs ) for each one.

Well, only Wormtongue and elusive Eowyn are really for book characters; the others are, aside from my real name, internet screennames- what other people see, you know. Charis is my real name, Kat is short for Kathryn Angelle, my pen name at fanfiction.net and fictionpress.com (and is used primarily by a few of my friends that I first met there), and Rhiannon I use here.

We can be in this crazy journey together.

HEAR HEAR! *downs lemonade*

[The-Elf-Herself]

What I really want to say is that it helps so much to know that I'm not the only one who's struggling, who's trying to really pinpoint who I am. I used to take a lot of pride back around 6th and 7th grade that I knew who I was and I never questioned it. But I've come so far from those days...so many things have changed around me...I've changed. And it's good to know that I'm not the only one. I won't give up if all of you don't. We can be in this crazy journey together.

I second that 'hear'. Huzzah! *drinks raspberry ice tea*

[Dragon]

*mumbles a little*

*sigh*

it's so ....amazing, actually, to hears points of views that aren's biased against anyone or anything like that, I love talking about life in general here, the reason for life, what compells us, everyone here puts so much thought into it, and while everyone else in the world may also put lots of thought into it, they don't show it. everyone shares what theyt hink and listens to what everyone else thinks. the world whould be like this. this would be paradise, if the world was made up of people like we see here. this would be my paradise, to have understanding, thinking, caring people. people that read, and analyze, people that talk about hings that mean something. that's what's beautiful to me.

[Kailita]

Those are my thoughts exactly, D. We need more Outcasts (who aren't in denial) in this world. We need more open, candid, honest people, who listen and think and care. We need the GOO and we need each other. I am firmly determined in that opinion.

[Rhiannon]

HEAR HEAR!!! HUZZAH!

[Niirewen]

Wow, I read everyone's posts and I can really relate to a lot of things that are said. It really helps to know that there are people here going through the same things and having the same feelings as me. I have few friends and I am not very close with anyone, and no one really understands me. It's really hard sometimes. But you all are different than anyone I know. I don't think any of you know me very well, but still you are all people I know I could go to talk to. I might be crazy, but that really means a lot to me.:)

[Rhiannon]

*hugs Niirewen* (we need to nickname you...can I call you Niri?) We're always here for you to talk to!

[Niirewen]

Oh yay, a nickname! hehe. Sure, you can call me that:D

[Kailita]

Taking one look at your title, location, deep thought, signature, and that last post of yours, you are definitely one of us, Niri. :) (Ooh, I like that nickname too. :D) This is the haven for people like you...people like us. As you can tell, if you have indeed read the last few posts in this thread, we're different from most of the people around us and few people really understand who we are. But we understand each other and we're here to help other Outcasts out. :)

Originally posted by Niirewen
I don't think any of you know me very well, but still you are all people I know I could go to talk to. I might be crazy, but that really means a lot to me.
Crazily, it means a whole lot to me, too. I know I can always come to the people here when I'm having a tough time...but it makes me feel even better that there's someone who feels comfortable coming to me in the same way. :) I like you already, Niri. :)

[Rhiannon]

I liked Niri already, for obvious reasons :D

[Niirewen]

Yay! Thanks guys, that really means a lot:)

[Niirewen]

Okay, so this is supposed to be the "Views on Life" thread, right? So I've thought of a topic for you guys.. Are you an optimist or a pessimist? And which one is better and why? I think pessimism has a really negative connotation to it (for obvious reasons) but I would argue that it's not so bad.. and pessimists aren't necessarily bad people or anything.. Personally, I think I'm a pessimist, and that's just how I am. But I do have my optimistic phases. And I've picked up on something kind of funny.. at least for me- when I'm feeling pessimistic I can't stand people being really optimistic.. and vice versa. Does that ever happen to any of you? Well, anyway, here's a little topic for ya, have fun with it.;)

[Mindy_O_Lluin]

Well, I'm predominantly an optimist and I can feel really dragged down by persistant pessimists. What is that possitive aspect of pessimism, we wonders? Why waste one's life worrying, or bickering, or constantly searching for negativity. But I do know some pessimists who seem to get a charge out of negating anything and everything.

(Hey, thanks for an interesting topic. I hate small talk. Hum, was that my pessimistic side rearing up?)

[Rhiannon]

I kind of swing between them...I suppose what I really am is an Idealist.

[Arebeth]

Mmmm... I think I'm a optimist. Problem with optimist people is that you're often disappointed. Argh.

[Sador]

Well I am of the opinion that an optimist will often be disappointed, but a pessimist is occasionally pleasantly surprised. I remain a pessimist.

[Annushka]

Originally posted by Rhiannon
I kind of swing between them...I suppose what I really am is an Idealist.

Rhia!!! I suppose I'm an Idealist too.

I dont' know if this counts as an Optimist, but I almost never give up. Or feel devastated. I either keep trying or just move on. And I never expect everything to be very easy. So if everything is fine I'm still pleasantly surprised, if not that's OK too.
Actually on the 2nd thought I think I'm everything combined. In some questions I'm very pessismistic, in other cases still having 100000 illusions and so on.
Sorry, my post is kinda messy :o

[Niirewen]

Hey, thanks for an interesting topic.
No problem;)

Well I am of the opinion that an optimist will often be disappointed, but a pessimist is occasionally pleasantly surprised.
My point exactly.
Although being optimistic occasionally is a good idea I suppose. I have a friend who once forced herself to be optimistic for a week, and it really worked for her. I almost turned into an optimist from just being around her all the time.

[Dragon]

that's.... interesting... I couldn't ever do that, I would become pessimistic againg jsut bc I was forcing myself to be optimistic, and I don't like being forced to do anything, even if it is by myself.

I would say I'm almost always a pessimist. I have my times when I'm an optimist, but that's barely ever. hope jsut doesn't work 4 me, so I don't hope, I make things happen. I will them to happen. hoping just hurts me, so I really try not to.

I guess it sort of evens out though. I mean, optimists are dissapointed a lot, but then, they're optimistic, so they expect it will be better next time. pessimists can be pleasantly surprised, but they don't expect it to happen again, so they jsut go one being all pessimissy (word???)

[ely]

So optimists are often disappointed and pessimists are pleasantly surprised? Well, I seem to be a pessimist who is often disappointed... :rolleyes: I guess, it's because I still hope for the best, but that doesn't make me an optimist either because I worry too much. Yep, I worry way too much, just like my mother. But when she worrys, she walks from one room to other and talks to everybody; I worry quietly... I know, I know, life is too short to waste it on worrying, but sometimes I just can't help it... :(

[Arebeth]

Well, I worry too much, it doesn't make me a pessimist; if you hope for the best, you must optimist in a way... Most of the time I try to convince me that I'm wrong and that things will turn bad, but I still can't help hoping that everything will be perfect---:confused:

[Kailita]

Ah, the optimist/pessimist clash. ;) I think we've discussed this before in the Outcast Reality Zoo, but that's okay, it's a good discussion and it fits in here as well.

I think I summed up my views pretty well in the Zoo...let's see if I can find that again...

Ah, here it is. :)

Kailita's Former Post:
A realist sees the bad things as bad and the good things as good, and doesn't really elaborate on either side. Hence the name realist. That's probably the closest to what I am. But I tend to lean towards the optimistic side in situations concerning my friends, and towards the pessimistic side in situations concerning myself. (For instance: If a friend makes a mistake, I immediately reassure him/her that it will be all right, that it probably isn't as bad as it seems. But if it's me who makes the mistake, I immediately think the worst.)

I have this thing about getting my hopes up. I figure that if I put my expectations low, then I have less of a chance of being disappointed. Also, one of the main optimists in my life is Miss Super Optimist...and has somewhat tainted my view on optimists. :rolleyes: Optimism with balance is a good thing. But in heavy doses, it's just too over-the-top to take seriously. (Although pessimism is probably the same way.) Also, this friend of mine is so optimistic that she sees anything that isn't super-hopeful like herself as pessimism, which it isn't. It gets quite annoying after a time. :rolleyes: If things are good, then great, I'll be happy with them. But if they're not, then I'm going to say they're not...I'm not going to just pretend them all away.


There you have it. :)

Hmm...what's your definition of Idealist, Rhi?

I think I take Sador's view on things. Pessimists can be pleasantly surprised, while hoping for too much will disappoint you. But there are certain times when hope is necessary. Certain kinds of hope...the hope that things will eventually turn out okay, the hope that life is worth living, the hope that there's something out there to live for. Those kind of hopes are essential, I think, for living a full life. Otherwise you drown in despair. There is a difference between being pessimistic and despairing.

Originally posted by D
I guess it sort of evens out though. I mean, optimists are dissapointed a lot, but then, they're optimistic, so they expect it will be better next time. pessimists can be pleasantly surprised, but they don't expect it to happen again, so they jsut go one being all pessimissy (word???)
That's an interesting point, D. I think you're very right. (I think the word you're looking for is just plain old "pessimistic", by the way. ;) *Hearts her little sister*)

Originally posted by Arebeth
Most of the time I try to convince me that I'm wrong and that things will turn bad, but I still can't help hoping that everything will be perfect
I'm like that too, to some extent. I don't hope for things to be perfect...but I do, usually, in the back of my heart, hope. It's painful sometimes...I try to "turn off" my hope when it comes to really important things, things that I don't want to be let down about...I picture myself as a stone, cold and resolute, so I won't be disappointed. But I usually keep hoping despite my efforts. And, really, I don't want to be a stone...nobody should be. So I guess that, along with being a realist, I could be called a Reluctant Optimist. ;)

[kohaku]

I think I see optimism/pessimism a little differently... to me, they aren't about expectations, but reactions. When something bad happens, an optimist either looks on the bright side, keeps things in perscpective, or just maintains a positive outlook on life despite the negative event. A pessimist does the opposite; they let the negative things rule their view on life, or they focus on the negative points of an event. While I do experience extremely pessimistic phases, I am largely an optimist. I experience disappointment, but not to an unnecessary degree because I realize that no amount of wishful thinking is going to grant all my desires. If something doesn't go my way, I just say "that's life" and get on with it. It's not always as simple as that, but that's the basic principle of optimism that underlies even the biggest issues. When things get really tough, simply enjoying being alive can make me feel much better, and give me the emotional boost needed to handle big, unpleasant issues. And it really is true that things will work out in the end, not always to fit one's original plan, but in a way that works.

[Dragon]

hmmm.... that's a ....largely different way of looking at it, kohaku, I guess it couldn't really be counted as right or wrong....just..... different...

I think it's interesting that almost everyone favors the outlook that they lean towards, and I think this might be because we actually choose them for ourselves, we aren't just naturally that way, so our outlook depends on our.....logic? does that make sense to anyone else here?

That's an interesting point, D. I think you're very right. (I think the word you're looking for is just plain old "pessimistic", by the way. *Hearts her little sister*)

yeah, well, it's fun to throw in some wackiness here and there (and plus.... I forgot....)

But when she worrys, she walks from one room to other and talks to everybody; I worry quietly

no one can ever tell when I'm worryinbg unless I let them, which I usually do, bc I've learned that talking to ppl often help[s, you just hafta choose who you talk to carefully:rolleyes: :)

[Rhiannon]

Hmm...what's your definition of Idealist, Rhi?
I want to believe in things like Good Winning Out Against Evil and True Love and Fate and things like that. I want to believe that we have it in us to improve, to change the situation when it doesn't go our way- not like a pessimist, who expected it to go wrong in the first place, or the optomist who expected it to go right but will do whatever if it goes wrong.

[kohaku]

See, that's close to my definition of an optimist- a person who makes the most of a bad situation rather than letting it get to them, someone who goes out to try to improve things rather than accepting everything at face value.

[Kailita]

Hmm...I'm an Idealist with a Realist tinge then. I'm definitely for improving and learning and making the best of bad situations. I hope for the good to win out against the evil...but I try not to hope too hard, because sometimes it won't. I believe in True Love...I just don't know if it will happen to me. And Fate is what you make it to be. Or that's my take on it, anyway. ;)

[Dragon]

ooh, new topics?

fate! I have weird views on fate. I think that if you believe in fate, then it's there for you, but if you don't, then it isn't, so fate does exist, it just doesn't affect some ppl, or only affects certain ppl at certain times. either ppl create their own eventualities, or fate does it for them. sometimes I feel like fate is affecting me and sometimes I don't, but I think that no matter what I'm feeling, that's what's happening, when you believe in fate, you can't create your life outcome (or even the ones that are happening at the moment) bc ur too busy believing fate will do it for you.

what do you guys think about fate?

(p.s. next I want to hear about true love. I k now we've discussed love before, but there are new ppl and new opinions, and I don't think we've ever discussed true love anyways, have we?):rolleyes: :o :D

[Kailita]

Originally posted by Dragon
I think that if you believe in fate, then it's there for you, but if you don't, then it isn't, so fate does exist, it just doesn't affect some ppl, or only affects certain ppl at certain times. either ppl create their own eventualities, or fate does it for them.
I'm not sure if I get this. So fate exists...but only to the people who believe in it...? What is the definition of fate anyway? *Finds her handy dandy dictionary*

Fate - n. the power supposed to determine the outcome of events before they occur, destiny

Hmm. It seems to me, then, that people who believe in fate just sit around and let what happens happen to them, while others go out and do something about it. I'd much rather have control of my life than just let things happen to me because they're "destined" to. But maybe I'm a control freak. :D

[kohaku]

Hmm. It seems to me, then, that people who believe in fate just sit around and let what happens happen to them, while others go out and do something about it. I'd much rather have control of my life than just let things happen to me because they're "destined" to. But maybe I'm a control freak.

I definitely agree with that. As for me, I am also a control freak... I control my own "destiny," to the degree that it can be controlled. There is one situation in my life that makes me consider fate as a possibility, but I'll save that for the "true love" discussion that Dragon is requesting.

I think sometimes people believe in fate because it's better than the alternative; it can be overwhelming to think that every little action you perform has consequences, and everything you do takes you down a different road, while it's more comforting to think that no matter what you do, you are fated to end up at a certain place in life. Well, some people would find that comforting, anyway- it depends on where you think you're fated to end up!

[My_Precious]

You know, it sort of reminded me of a girl I knew. Her parents believed in fate and such, so they never actually bothered when she or her brother had bad grades, or got into trouble. When we were in first or second grade I remember their family being an "ideal" one, mom and dad loved each other, they had 2 adorable kids, and a small dog... Then that girl transferred to a different school. Next I heard about her she was 15 going on 16, getting so drunk she couldn't open the door, so they would find her sleeping on the doormat when they opened the door. She was smoking (at 15 in Russia it is sort of a big deal. At least for parents), and then got pregnant, got married, and had twins at 16. I wonder how she would have turned out to be if her parents actually did the proper job of raising her.

[Rhiannon]

That's awful, Precious!

I think whether you believe in fate or not, you still have to do things. It's just that one way you believe you were 'destined' to do it, and another you believe you did it because you wanted to. I suppose it changes how you view yourself more than how you view the world. Are you in control or not? And I suppose it also in part dictates your response- was that person who sideswiped you destined to do it and therefore not responsible, or just an idiot?

[Arebeth]

If there's a Fate (a new debate here?), I think it also depens of we want it to do. I mean, there could be something that we're supposed to do one day, but we still have to fight to achieve it. Even if Tolkien's fate was to write books, he still had to work to write them. Even if our fate is to become someone important, we still have to study like everyone else. (that's not brilliant, but I suppose you've understood.) So fate can help us to find our way; we must do our part. Mmm... Maybe this means that I don't believe in fate? I don't know. I think that there are some things waiting for us in our future. It's like "Help yourself and God will help you". Sorry I'm really obscure today. I'll try to finish this post when my ideas are clearer.

[ely]

I think some people use fate to justify their deeds ("There was nothing I could have done about it, it was destined to happen."), deal with failures and bad incidents. And I understand that, and sometimes it's even good to think that way, good to blame fate instead of yourself. But not always of course. Sometimes people blame themselves when there really was nothing they could do about it, but in some situations they can do something, make a difference. And when that kind of incident comes along, they should not just sit and watch and mumble to themselves: "This is fate. I can't do anything about it." But how do we know, when we can make a difference and when we can't? Well, I guess if one tries really really hard and then fails, blaming fate wouldn't be such a bad thing if he is willing to do all the hard trying part also the next time.

Me and fate? No, I don't believe it. I design my own future.
:D :p ;)

[Arebeth]

Errr... maybe this is me but... Are you sure you don't use "faith" instead of "fate":confused: sometimes???

[ely]

:o Yep, guilty as charged. :o Thanks for telling me that! :D ;) :p
Next time have to remind myself to think while writing... :rolleyes:

But I got it right at least in one place!!! :D ;) :p

[Rhiannon]

think that there are some things waiting for us in our future. It's like "Help yourself and God will help you". Sorry I'm really obscure today. I'll try to finish this post when my ideas are clearer.

'God helps those that help themselves'- I think it was coined by Benjamin Franklin, but I could be wrong.

Sometimes people blame themselves when there really was nothing they could do about it, but in some situations they can do something, make a difference. And when that kind of incident comes along, they should not just sit and watch and mumble to themselves: "This is fate. I can't do anything about it."
I think that's faulty. Whether you believe in fate or not, you still should make a difference. Believing in fate doesn't mean waiting for things to happen to you- it just means that everything that happens to you has been pre-ordained, right? But you still have to do it.

[kohaku]

Maybe that's why I don't believe in fate. You can say it's your fate to end up somewhere, but you still have to do the stuff to get there. And what if you decide not to? With free will, how can you say you got somewhere by fate? Unless you say you were fated to make a decision to do certain things. But I don't believe in that either.

[Arebeth]

Argh... Much too compliacted for me...:rolleyes:

I don't know if it's Benjamin Franklin who sais that, actually in French we say "Aide-toi et le ciel t'aidera", and I always thought it was in the Bible. But I may be wrong.

[Rhiannon]

No, it's not from the Bible- I'm almost positive it was Franklin ('Spare the rod and spoil the child' is derived from the Bible and usually credited to Franklin, but 'God helps those who help themselves' isn't, I'm pretty sure).

[Arebeth]

Maybe someone else said in French, totally unaware of Franklin's words?

Anyway- about fate, I find it especially scary. I don't believe in Fate, in fact I can't see how to believe in God and in Fate in the same time (but there must be a way), but I find it pretty frightening. The idea of "everything is decided and you have nothing to do against it, it even can be totally unfair, you can't even pray"... :rolleyes:

[Rhiannon]

I don't find Fate scary...Mostly because I see as not controlling your actions, but instead just being what's going to happen...It's still you making the decisions, but if you were to step outside time, you'd be seeing all the decisions you made in the future, etc., and that would be Fate.

But Fate is kind of pointless, unless you want to blaim things on it.

When I was little (well, 8 or 9), I was working things out: God knows everything, so he knew Adam and Eve would eat the fruit from the tree, so why did he put the tree in the garden? That was my first encounter with the idea of Free Will. And Free Will is what sets us apart, isn't it? And Free Will without a choice is kind of pointless. God knew we would make the wrong choice, but He gave us Free Will anyway, because we're in His image...
I was a deep ten year old.

[Arebeth]

Interesting... I had never seen things in that way...

[Gandalf The Grey]

Rhiannon imparts much wisdom when she says:

I don't find Fate scary...Mostly because I see as not controlling your actions, but instead just being what's going to happen...It's still you making the decisions, but if you were to step outside time, you'd be seeing all the decisions you made in the future, etc., and that would be Fate.

Forsooth, even the Valar wrestled to reconcile the visionary ideal of the Music with what they discovered on newly experiencing Eä firsthand:

But when the Valar entered into Eä they were at first astounded and at a loss, for it was as if naught was yet made which they had seen in vision, and all was but on point to begin and yet unshaped, and it was dark. For the Great Music had been but the growth and flowering of thought in the Timeless Halls, and the Vision only a foreshowing; but now they had entered in at the beginning of Time, and the Valar perceived that the World had been but foreshadowed and foresung, and they must achieve it.

-- taken from the Ainulindalë

Looking forward to deep-delving into this and other discussions! :)

Gandalf the Grey

[Rhiannon]

I like Gandalf! Lookit, I imparted wisdom!

Thanks, Gandalf, I have a feeling we're going to enjoy having you around ;)

[Sador]

So our choices are known before we make them? Fate or god or whatever has seen the universe from beginning to end and stands outside time watching it endlessly unfolding.
Is it possible that from outside all choices would have the same result? That in an infinite universe (or multiverse if you prefer) every different choice is realised and that what we experience is only one of many possibilities. One of many different 'Fates'?
I suspect a satisfactory answer to this question will not be found by me in my lifetime.

[kohaku]

There seems to be some implication here that free will and fate both exist. I say it's impossible to have free will and fate at the same time. If your path is pre-ordained, then so are all your decisions, no matter how much it seems that you are freely choosing. For example, let's say you get an awesome job and you say you were fated to end up there, but you say your decision to apply for that job or to meet the qualifications was chosen freely. That is a contradiction; if you are fated to get that job, then you must have been fated to apply, and fated to do things in the past to meet those qualifications, etc. If you claim that those decisions were based on free will, then the resulting job is not fate but merely the direct result of your actions. With true free will there cannot be a pre-ordained fate waiting for you because all decisions that you make with affect the final outcome.

[Rhiannon]

So our choices are known before we make them? Fate or god or whatever has seen the universe from beginning to end and stands outside time watching it endlessly unfolding.

Think of it like this: Time is a straight line. No not a line, technically it's a 'line segment'. It has a beginning, and it has an end, we just haven't gotten there yet. So here is this two dimensional line segment. Surround and encompassing that line segment is a three dimensional circle. That's God. Outside of time, encompassing time, so that for God time is both happening, already happened, and going to happen. This is really impossible for us to comprehend because we can only think two dimensionally, but God is infinite.

So in that sense, because God already knows what is going to happen because for Him it is all happening simultaneously, you can say that things are 'fated' or 'pre-ordained', if you call that simply knowing what is going to happen.

Of course, if you believe we came from pond scum and there is no ultimate being, well, that's something else.

If you say that fate is something/one controlling your actions, then it's not compatible with free will.

[Gandalf The Grey]

Sador asks:

Is it possible that from outside all choices would have the same result?

My reply, again from the Ainulindalë, now quoting the words of Ilúvatar:

And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.

Rhiannon: :)

[Sador]

Rhiannon I don't see time as a straight line or segment. I see it more as an extremely complicated tree shape with branches from every point where choices are made. All the different alternatives are realised, but as we are limited to experiencing just one version of reality at a time it appears to us to be linear.
Whether or not some supreme being is standing outside it is irrelevant to me.
People should have faith in themselves, not some ghost in the sky.

[Rhiannon]

People should have faith in themselves, not some ghost in the sky.

I say, if you want to believe you came from pond scum, well, more power to ya! :D

So are you saying you believe in alternate realities, then? That if we could maybe step over to the side a few feet we would see what would have happened if we had given in to our first impulse to hit Aunt Madge with the carrot cake?

[Arebeth]

Originally posted by Sador
People should have faith in themselves, not some ghost in the sky.

You can have faith in both... in my opinion.
Interesting discussion, really. Rhi has almost convinced me. (well, it's not difficult because I never really knew how I thought on the subject.:D ). Gandalf, do you know the Silmarillion by heart or what? It would take me hours if I try to find such answer in Tolkien's books...

[kohaku]

So are you saying you believe in alternate realities, then? That if we could maybe step over to the side a few feet we would see what would have happened if we had given in to our first impulse to hit Aunt Madge with the carrot cake?

This explains the belief that I hold. Different actions have different consequences. It's just logic.

I will buy the idea that a supreme being may know what decisions you are going to make, and at the same time you possess free will. However, if that supreme being has "chosen" a path for you, then your decisions are also chosen, and are not made freely.

It is therefore unreasonable to have faith in yourself and a supreme being at the same time. If God is guiding your life, there is no true free will and no reason to have faith in yourself. If God merely knows what is going to happen but does not meddle, then you are left to make all your decisionsand you can only have faith in yourself.

[Sador]

Originally posted by Rhiannon
I say, if you want to believe you came from pond scum, well, more power to ya! :D

So are you saying you believe in alternate realities, then? That if we could maybe step over to the side a few feet we would see what would have happened if we had given in to our first impulse to hit Aunt Madge with the carrot cake?

That's what I think Rhi. Except I don't believe it is possible to visit the world of Cake-covered-Aunt Madge except in thought.
The point about evolution is easily demonstrated by observing the natural world. Species evolve over time without any outside intervention, except the environmental conditions in which they find themselves. Pond scum that finds itself without a pond will mostly die, some will find they can live with less water, the descendants of said scum start to thrive in a dry pond, there is competition, the scum that survive are best adapted and so on for millions of years until I find myself stuck in traffic with the rest of the scum around me.

[Kailita]

Oh gah...we're not going to get into evolution, are we? I get plenty of that beaten over my head at school. But...this is the Deep-Thoughts/View-On-Life Thread...

I find all of your musings on fate very insightful. Personally, I think I agree with Kohaku...you can't have fate and free will, for reasons that she already explained. I think God is "outside the line", like Rhiannon said, but I don't think that makes him a "ghost in the sky". And I don't see how it is impossible to have faith in God and in yourself. God doesn't "choose" your path (though he knows which path you are going to take), because that would eliminate free will. But that doesn't mean he can't be with you and help you, instead of just floating around somewhere in the sky, just watching.

[Rhiannon]

The point about evolution is easily demonstrated by observing the natural world. Species evolve over time without any outside intervention, except the environmental conditions in which they find themselves.

There's no evidence of inter-species, macro-evolution, though....

But 'Dynamic Pond Scum' would be a great name for a band.

This is an interesting discussion because it's something that is different for everyone- Your views and mine, Sador, are fundimentally different because of our ideas about how-things-came-to-be. It dramatically alters how you treat the world, which is (I think) fascinating.

Like Kaia, I don't believe God is a 'ghost in the sky'- I think He's a very real, present, loving father figure, and also a huge, massive, completely impossible to understand omnipotent being. And the two don't conflict. And it is possible to believe in both yourself and God, if you have faith in yourself through God- this makes sense to me, but I'm having a really difficult time articulating it. I'll get back to that after I have some sleep.

[kohaku]

Correction; there is no proof for evolution, but there is evidence. Same goes for the existence/actions of God.

How is having faith in yourself through God any different than just plan having faith in God? To have faith in yourself through God implies that He has control over your life, therefore there would be no reason to have faith in your own abilities.

[Gandalf The Grey]

kohaku asserts:

To have faith in yourself through God implies that He has control over your life, therefore there would be no reason to have faith in your own abilities.

My reply ---

In saying:

I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor,

... in whose abilities do I trust while standing against the Balrog upon the bridge of Khazad Dum?

Arebeth:

While I thank you for your kind words, I must admit to some forgetfulness concerning history ended before the Third Age, ... therefore I know not all this lore by heart.

* bows *

-- Gandalf the Grey

[Beleg]

Originally posted by GtG
in whose abilities do I trust while standing against the Balrog upon the bridge of Khazad Dum?

In yours and your allies [If there are any] as placed in them by the one, Eru.

[forshadowed]

my view on life

good ppl= good life
bad ppl = bad life
good deeds= rewards
bad deeds = punishment


thats very simplified, really i could write an entire book, but i figured i'd spare u

[kohaku]

In relation to our discussion, I presume you mean to argue that God gives us our abilities, and thus we have faith that God gave us the ability to handle whatever may come our way. Stated like that, I can accept such an arguement. But I assert, then, that it is no different to say we have faith in ourselves as to say we have faith in ourselves through God. Saying "I have faith in myself through God" merely points out your perceived origin of your ability; it may sound silly, but one could also say "I have faith in myself through evolution" if you believe you possess your abilities due to a long process of natural selection, if you believe that the evolution preceding you has equiped you with adaptive traits.

[Sador]

Originally posted by kohaku

Saying "I have faith in myself through God" merely points out your perceived origin of your ability; it may sound silly, but one could also say "I have faith in myself through evolution" if you believe you possess your abilities due to a long process of natural selection, if you believe that the evolution preceding you has equiped you with adaptive traits.

I think it is the act of faith that can give people greater power than they knew they had. It can be faith in oneself or faith in a god, but in the end it isn't God who acts. It is the person. So whether or not God exists, it is people who make the world what it is by their actions. So have faith, but don't confuse it with knowlege.

I don't know what you mean when you say there is no proof for "macro evolution". As far as I was aware it is the same process as "micro" evolution. There are millions of transitional forms in the fossil record, so I don't understand why people feel they need to deny the way the world actually works.
Is it so their world picture conforms to that of the ancients? Seems a bit silly to me, if that is the case.

[Rhiannon]

I don't know what you mean when you say there is no proof for "macro evolution". As far as I was aware it is the same process as "micro" evolution. There are millions of transitional forms in the fossil record, so I don't understand why people feel they need to deny the way the world actually works.
'Micro' evolution is evolution within a species, which is a well document occurance. 'Macro' evolution is evolution from species to species- one species turning in to something else entirely, and there is no fossil evidence for it, it's purely conjecture.

Is it so their world picture conforms to that of the ancients? Seems a bit silly to me, if that is the case.
Another example of a basic, fundamental difference in our world views: I see evolution as an attempt to explain our existence without God, which I find silly.

[Sador]

Evolution I believe is neutral on the subject of God. If God created the universe then God created evolution. The fact of evolution in no way rules out the existence of god.
There is lots of evidence (if not proof) for the evolution of species from other species. I'm no biology professor, but it is there if you want to see it.

[Rhiannon]

There are many Christians who believe in both Creation and Evolution: I personally choose to take the Bible literally and believe God created the world in seven literal days. But do I believe my God is powerful enough to create the world through evolution if he wanted to? Absolutely. Do I believe he's powerful enough to say 'Let there be' and it be? Absolutely.

There is no real solid evidence for macroevolution. I've read the material and I wasn't covinced. If it occured, there should be some fossil evidence, and there is none. So I'm just as skeptical of the idea of one species changing in to another as you are of putting faith in a 'ghost in the sky'. :)

But diversity is good. Rhi is a big believer in tolerance...

[Sador]

There is solid evidence for macro evolution. Perhaps you have been reading the wrong books.
Being all fundamentalist on the literal six days business is just bizarre as far as I can see. Did God do that about six thousand years ago? Did he plant all those dinosaur fossils just to fool us into thinking they evolved into birds? Does that not make a god who would do such a thing a deceiver? I don't want to believe in a god who deliberately sets out to deceive people.

[Rhiannon]

There is solid evidence for macro evolution. Perhaps you have been reading the wrong books.
Maybe I am. If you can show me hard evidence that I'm wrong, I'll admit it. But I want to see it. So, direct me to your evidence.

Did God do that about six thousand years ago?
...Not quite that long, but yeah.

Did he plant all those dinosaur fossils just to fool us into thinking they evolved into birds?
No: he created dinosaurs, and the dinosaurs died out. They did not evolve in to anything else.

[Sador]

So the hundred million or so years in which the dinosaurs walked the earth happened in les than several thousand years? Not to mention all the ages before and since? I think you've got the tougher job of convincing to do here Rhi.(I'd put a smiley in, but my smileys aren't working).

[Rhiannon]

Why does it have to be hundreds of millions of years that the dinosaurs roamed the earth? Where's the proof of that?

[Sador]

You know those Fossilised bones they find some times, well it takes a long time to turn bone to stone and the earliest ones are in layers of sediment millions of years older than the later ones. simple logical really.

[Talierin]

Besides the lack of very many (if any) transitional fossils, there's the fact that life couldn't have even developed in the "primordial soup" and even IF it did, it wouldn't have survived long.

Amino acids come in two kinds, right-handed, and left-handed (called that by the way their structures are). When you have a pile of amino acids, you always see an equal amount of both kinds. Well, in all life forms both animal and human, all the amino acids are left-handed. (proteins are always made from left-handed amino acids) When you die, your amino acids start going back to their natural state, half right-handed, half left-handed. Well, how could a group of amino acids in this primordial soup group manage to somehow form themselves into a group of ONLY left-handed ones, if their natural state is both kinds equally...

And say somehow, a protein was formed... the pre-life earth's atmosphere as evolutionists suppose had carbon dioxide, free oxygen and hydrogen (and a couple others). Well, free oxygen destroys organic compounds, so there goes that protein. And if you have no oxygen, that means no ozone layer, so if that was the case, you have one zapped protein from the ultraviolet rays... So what if the protein formed near underwater volcanic vents, then it'd have heat, and protection from the air elements. But WAIT! Water has oxygen, so *poof* goes that poor poor protein again.

Another thing, proteins aren't all that makes up life either, in order to make a cell, you have to have sugars (all right-handed sugars, btw). But sugars and proteins react destructively when not in a lifeform (when they're inorganic), so how they ever could have formed a cell in the primordial soup is beyond me....


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