Celtic Myths and LoTR: Parallels?

[Helcaraxë]

I have been studying Celtic Myths for a time and I was struck by the strong connection between it and the LoTR

Ex:

Valinor = Spirit Land

Valar = Gods

Oisin = Beren

Taliesin = Bilbo

The Dagda = Manwe

Dana = Yavanna

Melkor = Balor of the Evil Eye

Dark Lords = Fomorians

The list goes on. Perhaps Tolkien drew more heavily than I previously thought from Celtic Lore. Comments?

[elffriend]

I have always felt that Tolkien had leaned towards the Celtic myths in his writings, but most peopl have not agreed with me, I am glad that I am not the only one who thinks this.
There is another myth from the Celtic mythology that Tolkien had possibly read and that is the one about, Owain and Luned, Luned gave Owain a ring of invisability.

[Kelonus]

Other things do give people thoughts to write books.

[Starflower]

I know for a fact that Tolkien drew his inspiration for the story of Turin Turambar very heavily from a story in the Finnish mythology. It doesn't make him any less of a writer, on the contrary , it is a good write who can incorporate myths and legends into his own writing .

:)

Starflower

[Lhunithiliel]

Well, it seems so... Tolkien was truly inspired by the ancient Icelandic and Nordic myths.
But let's not forget that his intention for writing his legendarium was to create mythology and in which myths there are no supreme gods, goddesses of the earth and gods of evil...? Every nation on this planet has the roots of its culture in ancient myths and legends and the "picture" of pagan gods is present almost everywhere.
So, I just think that Tolkien was in fact inspired by those Scandinavian sagas and this is a firm fact, but that he is an outstanding mind that has "produced" one of the marvels in the world literature - this is also a firm fact. Right?
Besides, we are all humans after all. What one writes surely comes from his mind but this particular mind is for sure influenced and in fact formed and featured under the influence of the society around. Tolkien seems to have been deeply interested in the myths of the peoples of Iceland (former dwellers of Norway if I'm not mistaken) and also in Finish heroic tales like Beowulf and by some others... But what he wrote is just..... outstanding for the masterpiece of submitting the story and for the unlimited flight of his imagination - so strong that one can only follow and enjoy.... Right? :rolleyes: ;)

[Kelonus]

I know when I write my stories, it gives a great feeling. One in which I appreciate and want to tell others, but the way you see and try to have them see it doesnt work out, which kind of sucks.

[elffriend]

I did not mean to imply that Tolkiens writings were anything but Great masterpieces, which were meant as a mythology for England. What his influences were makes no difference, as most mythologies, whether Norse, Irish, or Celtic, have many parallels, and are very similiar, the names and places maybe different, but the stories are all about great heroes and villians, good and evil, strength and power, and the ability to do what is deemed to be the right thing.

[Starflower]

So, I just think that Tolkien was in fact inspired by those Scandinavian sagas and this is a firm fact, but that he is an outstanding mind that has "produced" one of the marvels in the world literature - this is also a firm fact. Right?


I do agree that he "produced" the great masterpiece that we know as the world of Middle-earth, and yes he was inspired by Scandinavian sagas, but what I meant was that as the myths and legends are jsut that , there are no copyright issues, and the story I was referring to is called "Kullervo" , and it is almost exatly the same as tale of Turin. Tolkien himself admitted being very strongly influenced by these legends, and he saw nothing wrong in incorporating them into his own stories.

Tolkien seems to have been deeply interested in the myths of the peoples of Iceland (former dwellers of Norway if I'm not mistaken) and also in Finish heroic tales like Beowulf

Icelandic people are jsut that, Icelandic. The island was populated by people from all over Scandinavia, but that was a couple of thousand years ago... and Beowulf is most definitely not a Finnish heroic tale :) it's origin's are in the British Isles


:D
Starflower

[Lhunithiliel]

:o :o :o
Well... about Beowulf... you surely must know much better than someone from the far south-east :eek: Perhaps this is why I find the mythology of the northern peoples so interesting - much different from what we grew up with here in the Balkans :D

Anyway, I just wanted to add that I have read somewhere what Tolkien himself said once about being influenced by the Nordic sagas - (I can't quote exactly) ....that whenever he read a saga or a legend or a tale he found a burning desire within himself to write a similar thing.
I guess most people feel the same way - both when they read what Tolkien had once read and reading Tolkien himself! This "burning creative desire" becomes so strong! :) .......
But can one always tell the story in such a masterful way as Tolkien did?....... ;) :rolleyes:
***

What I would VERY MUCH interested to learn is about those paralels between Tolkien and Celtic legends and tales and even further back - the connection of the Celtic tales to the more ancient sagas of the northern peoples of ancient Europe...

I think that if we get the "picture" from both points of view - history and literature/folklore - then it can help greatly to get a miuch better understanding ...... Don't you think so?

[Lantarion]

Just to elaborate a little on Starflower's excellent point, the story of Kullervo is only a small part of the collection/collective of ancient Finnish (mostly Karelian) legends and beliefs, collected by Elias Lönnrot, which is known as the Kalevala. :)
Anyway, sorry to break the conversation up a bit but the topic was Celtic (is that pronounced with an 's' or a 'k', I can never remember) myths specifically; so if anybody has more info pertaining to Celtic mythology and applicability thereof in Toklien's works, step right up! :D

[Lhunithiliel]

This is not and can not be a subject any doubt! :)

But what I'd expect from this thread is what I said in my previous post:
What I would VERY MUCH interested to learn is about those paralels between Tolkien and Celtic legends and tales and even further back - the connection of the Celtic tales to the more ancient sagas of the northern peoples of ancient Europe...

I think that if we get the "picture" from both points of view - history and literature/folklore - then it can help greatly to get a miuch better understanding ...... Don't you think so?

[Starflower]

what is it exactly you would liek to know ? the parallels between Tolkien and the legends ?

care to be a bit more specific, cause there is a lot of similarities....

Starflower

[Lhunithiliel]

Oh, thank you! :D

What I am so very much interested is to learn about those Celtic tales that have found some reflection in Tolkien's works and more than that - the historical backround of the Clets and their culture.

What I was thinking reading the posts in the present thread was that the Celts (if I'm not mistaken) were considered the natives on the British island. But they themselves had once come from Northern Europe. So, their culture must have derived from the culture of the Northern peoples.
So, you see, I'm looking for the whole historical "line", as history is the ground for the culture of a nation. Right? :rolleyes:

So, it would be extremely interesting to trace the "roots" of a tale by Tolkien - does it have them deep back in the history of the island and its people or do they lie in the ancient culture of the Scandinavian peoples whose culture is said to have strongly influenced Tolkien.

Paralels! This is exactly what the thread is about! Right? :)
***********

Browsing through my favourite encyclopedia - the Tolkien Wiki, here is what I found (http://www.thetolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?Mythology/TolkiensSources).

OMG!!!!! :eek:
If I have to read ALL that stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Lantarion]

I'm not sure now, but I don't think the Celts came from Scandinavia.. :o

[Starflower]

don;t think so either....us Scandinavians tend to either stay put or plunder further away, ie the coast of present day Canada :)

The Celts are Circaesir from Circaesya, who lived on the Sea of Grass in what is now west Kazakhstan until late in the second millennium B.C. They were by their own definition a linguistic group, but now they are a culture. Contrary to popular belief, they had nothing to do with European inhabitants known to archaeologists as the 'Beaker folk' and 'Battle Axe people'. The 'Urnfield people' farther east were Circaesir, and obviously related to the Celts. Their descendants integrated with Celts in central Europe


but there are so many mythologies and legends that it would be inconceivable to think that Tolkien wouldn't touch at least some of them in his work, after all he was a professor of the english language and studied old myths as part of his job/


Starflower

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Walter
[B]Now "The Early History of Britain" wouldn't that be a nice topic for one of the lectures of your guild? ;)
Indeed!
But, after I read what you have provided as a brief historical overview, I wonder.... Why don't YOU expand it and I'll "try" to find a place for your work within the tight schedule of the Lecture Round? I think, I'll talk Eri into it. ;) :p

[Lhunithiliel]

Sure!
Why am I not surprised?! :p

[Rhiannon]

I think we can assume that Tolkien read Celtic mythology, and I certainly thing he borrowed from it, all though it might not have been intentional.

But mythology tends to repeat the same motifs and archtypes, so it's impossible to say what came from where unless Tolkien himself said.

[Helcaraxë]

I agree with Lhun that Tolkien's story came from his own mind. This mind, however was heavily influenced by scandavina myth. Tolkien himself was an avid student of Celitc history.

-MB

[Gandalf The Grey]

Hail, Morgoth's Bane,

Well met! * bows a greeting *

Thank you for starting a thread on a topic that's been of interest to me for some years.

On a visit to Ireland in 1991, I picked up a book called "Irish Folk & Fairytales Omnibus" by Michael Scott. References in this book give further indication of the parallels you're drawing between Tolkien's Elves and Celtic Elves.

When you mention Valinor equating to the spirit world, I think of references to "Isles of the West" (p. 74, The Return of Oison ) and Tir na nOg --

Tir na nOg ... It exists beyond this world, beyond the Shadowland, in a place which is set apart. … And the land is inhabited by a happy people, the Elven folk. (pp. 138-139, Conla and the Faery Maid)

Throughout the book, Elves are given such names as "the Elder race" and "the Shining Ones," and described as tall, thin, and wearing cloaks. They have kings and ride forth to battle on horseback.

And when it comes to the conception of time colored by Elvish immortality, there's a description that seems to me strikingly similar to Tolkien's vision:

Time was a human measurement and the elven folk did not number the passing days and keep the fleeting years. If anything of theirs reckoned time, it was a subtle appreciation of nature, of spans of growth, decay and regrowth … for there was no death in the elven fields. (p. 206, The Last Outpost)

I hope to also post soon some information on Scandinavian history and its appearance/influence on Tolkien's works as well.

Looking forward to exchanging ideas with you and all other conversationalists here present,

Gandalf the Grey

[Helcaraxë]

*returns geeting*

Yes, I've been rolling this subject over in my mind for a while ever since I got interested in pagan mythology; glad some people are of like mind.

--MB

[Starflower]

Tolkien himself admitted on many occasions that he modelled
the grammar and form of Quenya in FInnish, which he studied as a hobby, so he could read the FInnish national epic 'Kalevala' in its language of origin. The reasoning behind this was that something would inevitably be lost in translation, taht only the original would truly convey the meaning and spirit of the stories. He ended up taking many stories in the 'Kalevala' and reshaping them to fit Middle-earth, the most famous one being the story of Turin Turambar, which was modeled on the story of Kullervo in the Finnish epic. I see nothing wrong in this, myths and legends are common heritage, you can't have copyright on myths. This in no way diminishes Tolkien's work, quite the opposite. He has to be credited to bringing these myths and legends to life again, rewriting them and thus bringing them out to a larger audience that they maybe otherwise would have been received.

[jallan]

Compare the story of Bran’s expedition to Ireland in the Third Branch of the Welsh Mabinogion to the expedition of the Gunther and Hagen to the Etzel’s hall in the Niebelunglenlied. They are obviously variants of the same tale, more clearly so in the version in the Icelandic Thiðrekssaga where Hagan/Högni initiates the final battle by suddenly killing his young nephew at a banquet, just as his counterpart Efnisien does in the Mabinogion.

Tales and motifs float between cultures, some found world wide.

Tolkien was a Germanic philologist who had studied and taught Old Icelandic.

He generally favored Germanic legends himself, in part because he had less taste for the wilder and madder and more stylized Celtic legends.

The idea of isles of immortal folk that appears in Irish tales seems to be what Tolkien mostly took from the Celts into his mythology. GandalftheGray has posted already about the parallels between Irish immortals and their lands and some of what Tolkien writes.

One might also notice a possible connection between Oromë who is in Sindarin Araw from the West (Annûn) and the supernatural huntsman Arawn Head of Annwn who appears in the First Branch of the Welsh Mabinogion.

Coincidence in the names? Maybe.

Of course Sindarin was mostly based on Welsh in its phonology and style.

The parallels that MogothsBane finds are weak.

The immensely strong but gluttonous and crude god Dagda is not much like Manwë. In style the Dagda with his great club seems more like the Norse Thor and some think the Dagda may have been a thunder god also in the days before the Irish pantheon was mostly euhemerized.

Danu is barely mentioned in surviving texts, other than in the phrase Tuatha Dé Danaan ‘People of the Goddess Danu’. We don’t know enough about her to equate her with any of Tolkien’s Valar.

Her Welsh cognate Dôn was mother of Gwydion, Gilfaethwy, Gofannon the Smith and Amaethon ‘Ploughman’ apparently the representative gods of the four classes of Celtic society: priests/Druids/bards, aristocratic warriors, craftsmen, commoners.

There is nothing of this in Tolkien.

Bilbo is hardly Taliesin because he writes poetry. All cultures have their poets and Taliesin is not the only bard in Celtic stories. Genuine surviving works of Taliesin are strring songs, mostly in praise of King Urien.

Beren is hardly Oisin. This is told also of other Celtic and Germanic and French and Greek heroes.

A comparison of the Eye of Sauron with the eye of Balor has been made by others. But the Norse Óðinn also had but one eye.

It is not clear that Sauron did have one eye only or whether Tolkien is using metaphoric language referring to Sauron’s ability to look out on the world and see much that was occurring.

Balor as the greatest of the opponents of the Tuatha Dé Danaan of necessity corresponds to Melkor. But the clever god Lug who overthrows him is hardly Tolkien’s Tulkas.

Norse myth provides Loki as the Melkor counterpart, once one of the gods himself and later imprisoned by them.

The Zoroastrian faith gives Angra Mainyu (Ahriman).

Tolkien’s mythology is a little bit from here and a little bit from there, very well mixed with so much of his own imagination that origins of this or that part of it are obscured.

Celtic hero legnd speaks much of chariots and charioteers and Tolkien writes almost nothing about this kind of society. Nor do his Valar live in an otherworld parallel to and coexisting with our own where what are simple hills in our world are divine fortresses in the world of the gods.

This parallel world idea is very strong in Irish legend but absent altogether from Tolkien other than a few remarks about the Wraith World. But certainly the Valar don’t live in the Wraith World.

Note that by his own admission, Tolkien was not particularly learned in comparative mythology and legend, though certainly more so than many who read his books. And he certainly knew less when he first drew up his mythos of the Valar than he later learned.

And Tolkien did not put much of what learning he had into his tales to the point that any reading of the Norse Eddas on even Beowulf is at all necessary to explain anything in his writings.

Tolkien either changes radically what he has borrowed or he freshly invents. You can’t fill in the gaps in Tolkien by finding versions of the same stories in mythological or legendary texts.

[Gandalf The Grey]

* bows greetings to Morgoth's Bane, Starflower, jallan, and all other participants in this discussion *

Though I fear I cannot match the eloquence and expertise of the rest of you, yet I hope to offer some information of interest relating to the likelihood of Tolkien's drawing of character names from Scandinavian history.

In fact, I am going to quote from the results of some genealogical research sent to me by my father in e-mail. I strongly prefer not to name my father here publicly, but am quite willing to privately give out his name and e-mail address to any administrator here at TTF who may wish to check my source, and to verify that my father gives me his permission to quote him without using his name. I am also willing to delete this post if those in charge of TTF feel that is the proper course of action. The historical veracity of this information can also be researched on the internet on a do-it-yourself basis, but might prove an incredibly painstaking process.

That said, here is the information:

Alfhild Gandolfsdatter:

Birth; about 665 in Denmark, Death 759 in Uppsala, Sweden: (Occupation: Princess of Sweden and Denmark)

Spouse: Sigurd "Ring" "the Sea King" Randversson [A King in Sweden and a King of Denmark] (Note: Sigurd was Alfhild’s half brother. Alfhild was raised by her stepfather, Randver Radbartsson, (a king of Sweden.) Randver was the grandson of Radbard, a king in Gardereige, Russia.

Note: Sigurd “Ring” Died in 812 in Battle of Bravalla, Denmark. Note: Alfhild was already 65 years old when her husband Sigurd was born, obviously the marriage was arranged to assure that Sigurd would be king in two kingdoms at the same time.

Alfhild’s father was Gandolf Alfgeirsson

Gandolf Alfgeirsson was a king in Norway b: ABT 0710 in Vingulmork, Hedmark, Norway.] Mother: unknown

Just a reminder:
Name: **Frotho Frodo
Sex: M
Birth: 0820
Death: 0885
Occupation: King of Staelland in Denmark

I wonder how many other names of our ancestors may have been borrowed by Tolkien for his book!

According to this, I'm related to the real Gandalf.
And Frodo, as well.

[Freawine]

Tolkien borrowed the name Gandalf from the eddic lay Voluspá, stanza 12, where it is mentioned in a list of dwarf names:

Veigur og Gandálfur,
Vindálfur, Þráinn,
Þekkur og Þorinn,
Þrár, Vitur og Litur,
Nár og Nýráður,
nú hefi eg dverga,
- Reginn og Ráðsviður, -
rétt um talda.

Veig and Gandálf,
Vindálf, Thráin,
Thekk and Thorin,
Thror, Vitr, and Litr,
Núr and Nýrád,
Regin and Rádsvid.
Now of the dwarfs
I have rightly told.

For such reason it was the initial name of the character that would latter be called Thorin. Tolkien, however, realized that Gand-Alf (something like Magic Staff Elf) was much more suitable for the wizard from The Hobbit. It does appear in other texts, yes, even as a first name of non-dwarvish characters, but it was the Voluspá that gave the Professor the idea.

[jallan]

GandalftheGrey posted some genealogical data which is indeed a proper rendering of the genealogies as given in some of the surviving material for the legendary Sigurd Ring and his legendary son Ragnar Lodbrok (Ragnar Hairy-breeches).

What data we have on these personages in Icelandic and Danish sources is confused and inconsistant, as partly indicated by the statement in GandalftheGrey’s material:... Alfhild was already 65 years old when her husband Sigurd was born, ...It is only with the supposed sons of Ragnar Lodbrok son of Sigurd Ring that we enter on the margins of history, at least to the extent that Viking rulers that are certainly historical are in later tales identified with sons of Ragnar Lodbrok. Whether this tradition is true or not is another question (much debated by some but by most ignored as the debate seems to be fruitless).

The Icelandic and Danish accounts do not agree with one another much less with what history we get from contemporary Frankish annals.

Saxo Grammaticus in his History of the Danes presents two separate Ring characters flourishing at different periods. It cannot be known whether Saxo or someone else has split apart into separate tales what was once one tale or whether similar characters who flourished at different times have been confused and Saxo in part has kept them separate.

According to Saxo’s first account in Book VII (http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/saxo/saxo07.htm), Harold is king of Denmark and Sweden and Ring is his nephew fathered on his sister by Ingild the former king of Sweden. The civil war between the Harold and Ring is the famous battle of Bravalla in which Harold perishes and Ring gains the thrones of both Denmark and Sweden.

But in Book IX (http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/saxo/saxo09.htm) we find Siward Ring (Siwardus being a Latinization of Sigurd) son of Siward by a daughter of Gotrig and his cousin Ring who is also a grandson of Gotrig. They fight for the throne. Ring is slain but Siward Ring dies soon after and his son Ragnar Lodbrok succeeds to the throne.

An attempt to list the kings of Denmark known to dependable history can be read at Kings of Denmark (http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Bravalla&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&selm=56obsn%24eek%40news.campus.mci.net&rnum=5). The pertinent section is:SIGIFRID ii (d. 812) and ANULO (d. 812), claimants to throne in the civil war of 812. Sigifrid ii was "nepos" of Godefrid, and Anulo was
"nepos" of the former king Harald i. Both were killed in the resulting struggle, but Anulo's party won, and his brothers became kings. It is unclear whether the two factions in this civil war
(i.e., the relatives of Harald vs. the relatives of Godefrid) were two different families or two different branches of the same family.
   [Note: This battle in 812 was the ultimate source of the famous (but quite fictional) "Battle of Bravalla" which is a part of the
pseudohistory given by the sagas. The two claimants, Sigifrid (i.e., Sigurd) and Anulo (confused with the Latin word for ring (annulus), and translated as "Ring"), were combined into the mythical "Sigurd Ring", who was made the victor (and survivor) of the battle, and Harald was transformed into the loser. This is just one of many
examples which shows how completely unreliable the sagas are for the
history of Denmark during this early period.]GandalftheGrey’s source also uses the date 812 for Bravalla, making the same identification as is made here.

But whether that conflict was indeed the souce of the famous legendary battle of Bravalla or a later battle that was confused with it is something scholars argue about.

Some comparative mythologists have brought forth good arguments that the story around the battle of Bravalla is mostly not historical at all, at least as applied to medieval Denmark, but is a variant of the same tale that is the central story of the Hindu Mahabharata. See Bravalla /Mahabharata Comparison (http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Dumezil+Mahabharata+Bravalla&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&selm=1993Aug28.151042.16546%40ens.fr&rnum=1).

In any case Gandolf from gandr + ulfr ‘wolf’ is not the same name as Gandalf from gandr + alfr ‘elf’. The former was quite common throughout Europe in such forms as Gandolfo, Gandolpho, Gondolfo and Gondolpho. But the only cases of Gandalfr I know of are its appearance as a Dwarf name in the list of Dwarfs and as applied to a king in Snorri Sturluson’s Heimskringla in Harald Hafargar’s Saga (http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/heim/04harfgr.htm).

Frodo is a Latinized form of Old Norse Fróði, Old English Froda applied to a number of legendary kings who supposedly ruled over Denmark or over kingdoms within the area now known as Denmark. Saxo Grammaticus distinguishes six kings named Frodo/Frotho in the legendary period. But it is apparent from the Old English Beowulf that Saxo’s Frodo II of Denmark (supposedly the twenty-third king) is identical to Froda of the Heathobards who is an elder contemporary of Hrothgar in Beowulf. But Hrothgar appears in Saxo as Roe, the twelfth king.

Other sources (of course) differ as to numbers and titles and genealogies of various kings named Frodo. The sources tend to differ about everything.

[Gandalf The Grey]

Many thanks for the additional information, jallan and Freawine,

* bows gratitude *

Genealogy has become my father's passion since his retirement, and he approaches it with all the gusto of a Hobbit. As he strives for the keenest accuracy (as far as is possible when history meets legend), he'll therefore highly appreciate your insight and wealth of sources. I'm planning on e-mailing him a copy of your posts soon, trusting that this is all right with you.

Gandalf the Grey

[jallan]

Well, I can hardly stop you sending him a URL to the post, can I? :)

But of course you can send the entire post if you wish.

A great problem with personal genalogies on the web is that often there seems no concern with sources. To my way of thinking every single liink ought to have at least one source reference, including a reference to the primary source even if the creator of the genealogy has not been able to check it: e.g. “Primary source: MSS 5623 Bodloan, assignment of land to John Nonesuch and his son Samuel Nonesuch, cited by A.G. Tracing in Old Families of Loamshire, 1872.”.

If there is more than one theory about the parenthood of a particular person then all theories ought to appear with some evaluation of them. That is the difference between genuine genealogical study and a simple list of names and dates picked up from who-knows-where which is what many web genealogies seem to be.

Sometimes it is pretty obvious that after a certain point the genealogy is an invented one, e.g. Ragnar Lodbrok’s wife Aslaug is very unlikely to be the daughter of Sigurð the Volsung by Brynhild the sister of Attila the Hun, at least if Ragnar Lodbrok son of Sigurð Ring is really to be placed in the ninth century.

But the amusing note in the genalogical reference about Alfhild being 65 years old at the birth of her future husband suggests your father or someone has a sense of humor about such discrepencies in legendary records.

[Helcaraxë]

Originally posted by jallan


The parallels that MogothsBane finds are weak.



Yes, you do seem very interested in bashing all my ideas don't you? Perhaps you are right that some of my parallels are not entirely accurate, but you do not have to dissect my post in such a manner. Even if your geneological and mythological knowledge exceeds mine.

Anyway, the Valar do (in a sense) live in a "Spirit world" type place. When, after the fall of Numenor, Eru removed Valinor from the circles of the world, it was no longer accesible by men. Some of Tolkien's wording implies that it existed at least partially in a seperate world.
--MB

[jallan]

Morgothbane posted:Yes, you do seem very interested in bashing all my ideas don't you? Perhaps you are right that some of my parallels are not entirely accurate, but you do not have to dissect my post in such a manner. Even if your geneological and mythological knowledge exceeds mine.

I’m not particularly interested in bashing your ideas, Morgothbane.

When a reader looks at an author’s work sometimes apparent parallels to something else that the reader knows emerge.

Sometimes such parallels are meaningful in respect to sources used by the author and the intent of the author. Sometimes they are not.

If you put such things up for discussion, as is reasonable to do, they will either be supported or shot down by others. Or both may happen and a heated debate emerges. That’s the way it is.

And I don’t think it would have been correct to simply say that I didn’t agree with you and not explain why.

If my tone seemed too harsh, I apologize.Anyway, the Valar do (in a sense) live in a "Spirit world" type place. When, after the fall of Numenor, Eru removed Valinor from the circles of the world, it was no longer accesible by men. Some of Tolkien's wording implies that it existed at least partially in a seperate world. Yes, they do.

The main difference between that and surviving Irish tales is that the otherworld is mostly imagined as interpentrating our world. A standard trope is for a character to wander into a mist which clears and where an empty hill stood a fortress now appears.

The spirit world of Ireland is all about Ireland, not only beyond the sea.

On the other hand, in Fenian tales Finn and his Men in many accounts mix and even intermarry with the Tuatha Dé Danaan almost as the Tuatha Dé Danaan were another kind of human. In these tales they are more on the same plain with each other.

This somewhat resembles the situation in the Tolkien’s First Age where mortals and Elves live mostly separately yet intemingle in ways that resemble that of the Fenians and the Tuatha Dé Danaan.

One might also wonder if the idea of the Rangers might not in part derive from the Fenians.

[Helcaraxë]

Originally posted by jallan
Morgothbane posted:

I’m not particularly interested in bashing your ideas, Morgothbane.

When a reader looks at an author’s work sometimes apparent parallels to something else that the reader knows emerge.

Sometimes such parallels are meaningful in respect to sources used by the author and the intent of the author. Sometimes they are not.

If you put such things up for discussion, as is reasonable to do, they will either be supported or shot down by others. Or both may happen and a heated debate emerges. That’s the way it is.

And I don’t think it would have been correct to simply say that I didn’t agree with you and not explain why.

If my tone seemed too harsh, I apologize.Yes, they do.

The main difference between that and surviving Irish tales is that the otherworld is mostly imagined as interpentrating our world. A standard trope is for a character to wander into a mist which clears and where an empty hill stood a fortress now appears.

The spirit world of Ireland is all about Ireland, not only beyond the sea.

On the other hand, in Fenian tales Finn and his Men in may accounts mix and even intermarry with the Tuatha Dé Danaan almost as the Tuatha Dé Danaan were another kind of human. In these tales they are more on the same plain with each other.

This somewhat resembles the situation in the Tolkien’s First Age where mortals and Elves live mostly separately yet intemingle in ways that resemble that of the Fenians and the Tuatha Dé Danaan.

One might also wonder if the idea of the Rangers might not in part derive from the Fenians.

You're right, of course.

When you say Finn, do you mean Finn McCool?

Also, in one instance (Melian and Thingol), even Ainur intermarried with men.

--MB

[jallan]

Yes, Finn McCool or Finn MacCumail or Fionn mac Cumhail.

I’ve read Tales of the Elders of Ireland: Acallam Na Senorach (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0192839187/ref=ase_ticc962/104-2968546-5365508?v=glance&s=books#product-details[/url) recently and the number of tales recounting very casual relations between the Tuatha Dé Danaan and the Fianna are astounding. But the book is thickly packed with material so concisely told as to make its contents practically unreadable.

It can be studied, but not really read as a book would normally be read. It is recommended only to lore collectors.

In this work St. Patrick actually marries a mortal prince to one of the Tuatha Dé Danaan without anyone showing great surprise.

[Helcaraxë]

Tolkien does make some vague references to the Irish otherworld. In Bilbo's "Earendil was a mariner" song in Rivendell, there is a verse I would like to quote:


The Silmaril she bound on him
And crowned him with the living light
And dauntless then with burning brow
He turned his prow; and in the night
From Otherworld beyond the Sea...





--MB

[Lhunithiliel]

It is so shocking to learn that the ancient Irish tales told about a world parallel to ours!!!
How comes that the ancient had that cosmogonical understanding, taking into consideration that the nowadays science is still reluctant to admit the existance of such worlds and only the science fiction writers take the liberty to "show" them!?
What then do these ancient tales say about the creation of the universe(s)?

Another point I would like to address here.

Is is known where the myth about the making of the Sun and the Moon, as presented by Tolkien, originated from? Is there a similar myth of the ancient Celts/Finns etc. or perhaps from some other mythology..... or is it Tolkien's own fantasy?

[Helcaraxë]

Well, many myths personify the Sun and Moon. For example, Hyperion, one version of the Greek Sun God, rode in his chariot across the skies. This is how the Greeks thought of the Sun, but wheather it at all influenced Tolkien is ambiguous.

As for the creation of the World in Irish myth, ask jallan. He has great knowledge of such things.

However, I have never heard of any Celtic creation myth. Perhaps the Celts believed that the world was not created, it simply was. But again, ask jallan.

MB

[Starflower]

well according to the earliest Finnish legends the world was created from an egg of a duck, the top becoming heaven and the bottom being earth.

here's a link to the epic itself, Kalevala , in english :

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/kveng/

and this Rune in it is where Tolkien based his story of Turin Turambar :
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/kveng/kvrune31.htm
and this one :
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/kveng/kvrune35.htm

[Helcaraxë]

Originally posted by jallan
But certainly the Valar don't live in the Wraith World.



I disagree.

They [the Elves of Eldamar] do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and and the Unseen they have great power.

--Gandalf, "Many Meetings," Fellowship.

Because the elves dwell at leats partially in this "Unseen" world, it is safe to assume that the Valar have a similar power.

MB

[Osric]

I'm generally wary of attempts to impose systematic relationships between different traditions. People like CG Jung and Joseph Campbell have written extensively on the way the same archetypes always suggest themselves, and spring up independently in the mythologies of different cultures, without one needing to be directly based on the other.

The ruler of the gods of one pantheon can usually be equated with the ruler of another, because they conform to universal features of the human condition. Most pantheons have a mighty physical warrior god, and a more sensitive type who's the best healer etc. etc.
If anything, we ought easily to be able to add to Helcaraxë's list. And anyone interested enough to be reading this should do so! (even if that doesn't mean that Tulkas is a representation of Thor or Ares/Mars, or Manwe an Odin or a Zeus/Jupiter).

And yet, the one Vala that really struck me as being a clear borrowing was Vána, with her associations with flowers, fire and poetry -- far from an obvious 'sphere of influence'! But isn't that exactly what Brighid / St Bride was associated with?

I was about to say Maedhros manifested a hint of Nuada of the Silver Hand in the replacement of his lost hand with one wrought of metal, but I checked my sources first and that proved to be an invention of the roleplaying company, ICE. The inspiration was probably right, but it wasn't Tolkien who devised it.

I'd tend to avoid suggesting that Tolkien's 'pantheon' of Valar is calqued on the deities of Celtic mythology, but it would be valuable to identify any specific instances where there seems to be a Celtic inspiration that couldn't have come from anywhere else.

-- Os.

[jallan]

Lhunithiel posted:It is so shocking to learn that the ancient Irish tales told about a world parallel to ours!!!
How comes that the ancient had that cosmogonical understanding, taking into consideration that the nowadays science is still reluctant to admit the existance of such worlds and only the science fiction writers take the liberty to "show" them!?Similar accounts of a more real word underlying our own appear in Hindu myths.

Such speculations may arise from speculation about the world of dreams and from ecstatic visions, both long ago known. The idea seems to be that there is a spiritual world normally invisible to most humans interpenetrating our own. Such ideas appear also in Hebrew writings. From 2 Kings 6:15 When the servant of the man of God got up and went out early the next morning, an army with horses and chariots had surrounded the city. "Oh, my lord, what shall we do?" the servant asked.
16 "Don't be afraid," the prophet answered. "Those who are with us are more than those who are with them."
17 And Elisha prayed, "O LORD , open his eyes so he may see." Then the LORD opened the servant's eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.Similarly in the Iliad Diomedes is allowed by Athene for a short time to see the gods who are active on the plain before Troy and who take part in the battle. Diomedes wounds both Aphrodite and Ares which Zeus takes as a great joke.

In actual tales it is not clear to what extent the teller thinks of a full world parallel to our own and to what extent teller thinks of invisible halls of the supernatural which are enchanted to normally appear to human eyes as hills and mounds or empty lakes and of beings that are normally invisible to humans. There is no single metaphysics and what is more important to the teller is often the air of mystery. The use of the term otherworld is so far as I know an invention of modern commentators on Celtic legend.

In any case this has almost no correspondence to scientific speculations about possible other universes with their own time and space or a branching time stream.

Our knowledge of the Irish pantheon comes from traditional tales that have passed through Christian hands. In these stories the old Irish gods and goddesses are rationalized as humans of long ago that had developed great powers of wizardry and magic and who still live in invisibly in a kind of underworld or parallel world, mostly in the old mounds that dot the Irish landscape and are called sídhe.

Unforunately whatever tales the ancient Irish may have told about the creation of the world have not survived in the later euhemeristic tellings.Is is known where the myth about the making of the Sun and the Moon, as presented by Tolkien, originated from? Is there a similar myth of the ancient Celts/Finns etc. or perhaps from some other mythology...Nothing that is very close. Legends of Alexander the Great tell of the two trees of the Sun and Moon in the east, but these are oracular trees, not the origins of the Sun and Moon. The Finnish Kalevala relates how the Sun and Moon were stolen and Ilmarin attempted to forge a new Sun and Moon which he hung each on a tree. But the forged Sun and Moon did not shine and it was necessary to find again the true Sun and Moon.

In the Mayan Popul Vuh the Sun first rose many generations after the first men. But nothing is said specifically about how it was created.

Osric posted:And yet, the one Vala that really struck me as being a clear borrowing was Vána, with her associations with flowers, fire and poetry -- far from an obvious 'sphere of influence'! But isn't that exactly what Brighid / St Bride was associated with.Vána is not associated with fire or poetry by Tolkien.

As the young goddess of beauty Vána somewhat resembles Greek Aphrodite, Roman Venus and Norse Freyja (at least as closely as can be expected in a pantheon where the power of sexuality is not openly represented). It may not be accidental the Freyja was also called Vanadis ‘goddess of the Vanir’ in the Norse texts. The name Vanir applied to fertility gods has no obvious etymology in Old Norse but it has been suggested that it is linked in some way to the equally inexplicable Latin name Venus.

Aphrodite/Venus is generally pictured as garlanded with flowers and accompanied by doves.

One might also recall young Korë of Greek myth who returns each year bringing the spring, also named Persephonë in her aspect as wife of Hades. The Romans had a goddess Flora who presided over flowers.I was about to say Maedhros manifested a hint of Nuada of the Silver Hand in the replacement of his lost hand with one wrought of metal, but I checked my sources first and that proved to be an invention of the roleplaying company, ICE. The inspiration was probably right, but it wasn't Tolkien who devised it.And in Norse mytholgy the god Týr lost his hand to the Fenris wolf and it was never replaced by any substitute hand so far as we are told. A hint of this may appear in Tolkien’s story of Beren.

[Arwen48]

Are there any lovers of Wagner out there?
How about Wagner's Ring cycle? There are some striking similarities in the two masterpieces, deriving from norse mythology.
Wagner's ring makes people invisible, and it has a corrupting and destructive power which taints everyone who possesses it.
Wagner's hero has a magic sword
Wagner's heroine is an immortal who sacrifices her immortality for the human she loves
Wagner's warrior heroes go to Valhalla; c/f Theoden and his son who 'have been brave in battle and will go to join their fathers' (more or less)

Tolkien drew from all the sources of myth and legend with which he was
familiar, I can't claim to know much about the different cultures involved but it seems clear that the northern mythologies have a great many symbols in common and it is these symbols rather than one source in particular which Tolkien adopted for his work.

[Barliman Butterbur]

I have been studying Celtic Myths for a time and I was struck by the strong connection between it and the LoTR...Comments?

In the book "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien," the following passages are found:

From entry #26:

[Speaking of the names in The Silmarillion:] "...Needless to say they are not Celtic! Neither are the tales. I do know Celtic things (many in their original languages Irish and Welsh), and feel for them a certain distaste: largely for their fundamental unreason. They have bright color, but are like a broken stained glass window reassembled without design."

From #130:

"...while possessing (if I could achieve it) the fair elusive beauty that some call Celtic (though it is rarely found in genuine ancient Celtic things), it should be 'high', purged of the gross, and fit for the more adult mind of a land now long steeped in poetry."

That's just a short selection; hopefully it gives the gist of Tolkien's feelings about things Celtic.

Lotho

[Barliman Butterbur]

I'm generally wary of attempts to impose systematic relationships between different traditions. People like CG Jung and Joseph Campbell have written extensively on the way the same archetypes always suggest themselves, and spring up independently in the mythologies of different cultures, without one needing to be directly based on the other.

The ruler of the gods of one pantheon can usually be equated with the ruler of another, because they conform to universal features of the human condition.

You bring up a fascinating point, Osric! I have had some occasion to study the works of Jung, Campbell and A. Comfort, and your post reminds me of the notion of "biological hardwiring" as being the reason for the existence of similiarities in myths and the conclusions drawn from them.

The similarities exist because all human brains are simply replications of the same basic model, no matter what race (race being no more than superficial difference in outer appearance). Hence we have the "archetypes" and mythological similarities that appear across all cultures and eras. And the universal features of the human condition, as you say, proceed from the fact that — except for outer appearance — all humans are the same inside, brain wiring included.

What say you, m'friend?

Lotho

[jallan]

The similarities exist because all human brains are simply replications of the same basic model, no matter what race (race being no more than superficial difference in outer appearance). Hence we have the "archetypes" and mythological similarities that appear across all cultures and eras. And the universal features of the human condition, as you say, proceed from the fact that — except for outer appearance — all humans are the same inside, brain wiring included.Probably true in some cases and not true in others.

Folklorists have tried to establish which motifs are universal and which seem to have spread from a single source. It is difficult, especially since it is possible that certain modes of life trigger motifs that may not be triggered in other environments. There is also contamination from visiting story tellers including Christian missionaries who may also tell secular folk tales from their own culture.

Campbell’s focused folklore studies are well thought of by experts but his general theories have gained much less respect. Campbell does tend to chose texts that fit his theories and tends to force his reading into a text, somewhat like those studies which attempt to interpret any book as though it were Christain allegory. Since Campbell’s own religion tends towards Hindu mysticism the western reader isn’t so likely to be aware of what Campbell is doing as much as the reader would be if Campbell was reading in a Christian message.

[Wolfshead]

Anyway, sorry to break the conversation up a bit but the topic was Celtic (is that pronounced with an 's' or a 'k', I can never remember) myths specifically; so if anybody has more info pertaining to Celtic mythology and applicability thereof in Toklien's works, step right up! :D
With a 'k'. Can be quite confusing when you have the likes of Celtic (with an 's') football club all over the place.

In the book "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien," the following passages are found:

From entry #26:

[Speaking of the names in The Silmarillion:] "...Needless to say they are not Celtic! Neither are the tales. I do know Celtic things (many in their original languages Irish and Welsh), and feel for them a certain distaste: largely for their fundamental unreason. They have bright color, but are like a broken stained glass window reassembled without design."

From #130:

"...while possessing (if I could achieve it) the fair elusive beauty that some call Celtic (though it is rarely found in genuine ancient Celtic things), it should be 'high', purged of the gross, and fit for the more adult mind of a land now long steeped in poetry."

That's just a short selection; hopefully it gives the gist of Tolkien's feelings about things Celtic.
Barley, these excerpts are quite interesting. Can you tell me who the original letters were written to?