Saved by Faith or saved by works?

[Maeglin]

Well? Which do you believe it is? I know already that there is going to be a divided opinion on this between the Catholics and Protestants, but I'd like to know everyone's thoughts anyway.
I think I already know what Eriol's opinion is and what verse he's going to use.;) :D (I hope I get it right I hope I get it right!):D

[Eriol]

I think you're not right :)

This is a great misunderstanding between Christians. It is amazing that a misunderstanding can cause so much grief.

The Catholic position, as far as I'm aware, is that we are saved by faith; but that true faith is expressed in works.

I'll have more to say about it next week.

[HLGStrider]

Faith. . .

though it might be good to specify this. Do you want it to be an only Christian debate or to involve other religions? Some religions don't have salvation of any sort.

[Celebthôl]

Well im no Christian (as some of you well know), so clearly i dont think we are saved by faith. I believe we are "saved" by just being decent people, by living good lives and dieing peacefully at the end of it. :)

[Thorin]

Eriol and I finally agree on something. I don't believe that either Protestant or Catholic believe you can work your way to heaven and 'being good' is a one way ticket to paradise.

I do, however, agree with Eriol (again! What is the world coming to??:D ) in that there is huge misunderstanding (especially in the Protestant world) concerning the relationship between faith and works and grace and the law.

We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. This should result in a changed life and heart in that we will manifest the works of Christ in our lives. Good works are a result of being saved, not a way to be saved.

We obey the law (ALL the law, not just nine commandments) and do good works BECAUSE we are saved not TO BE SAVED. Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments". If I love my wife, I will do good things for her and obey her. When someone's life does not reflect Christian teachings, one must question whether they have been truly saved.

I will be opening a thread to address the whole "law done away with at the cross" "Christ fulfilled the law so we don't have to follow it" misunderstanding in a bit.

[Maeglin]

I agree completely completely with Eriol and Thorin (Eriol you're right, I was wrong about what you thought). Works definitely come through faith in Jesus Christ, and you perform works because you are saved. So, to contradict the Apostle Paul here, I think that rather than "Faith without works is dead," it can instead be looked at as "Works without faith is dead."

Anyway, just my 2 cents.;)

[HLGStrider]

I personally believe the law was designed to drive us to Christ. That it was put in place because God knew we could never follow it on our own (also because following it brings us greater happiness and it pleases him, but mainly to drive us to Christ.). I believe that with the power of Christ in me I am more than capable now of obeying the law, but it means dying to myself.

In summery, I think that we should and if we were really living up to our full capacity as Christians we would be, but that doesn't mean we will. We never live up to full capacity. We're going to fail. You can be a bad Christian, and I don't believe that you can lose your salvation (eternal security would be another interesting topic).

[Starflower]

my opinion is that the two are very intertwined, you can't be saved by works alone, but you can't be saved by faith alone either. If you live according to the Bible and do good and love your neighbour, but you don't really believe, then you cannot be saved, not unless you believe. But on the other hand, you may have a lot faith, but still not live your life the way Jesus expects it, thus your faith alone will not save you . I believe that when you find faith, and you really want to follow Jesus, you should also look at your life, and make a change in it so that you live by what you believe in.

1 TIm 4 : " set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity." and .." watch your life and doctrine closely."



Starflower

[Bethelarien]

James 2:14-21

14 What profit is it, my brethren, for a man to say he hath faith, and hath not works? can faith save him?
15 Yea, a man may say, I will show thee I have faith without works; but I say, Show me thy faith without works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
16 For if a brother or sister be naked and destitute, and one of you say, Depart in peace, be warmed and filled; notwithstanding he give not those things which are needful to the body; what profit is your faith unto such?
17 Even so faith, if it have not works is dead, being alone.
18 Therefore wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead and cannot save you?
19 Thou believest there is one God; thou doest well; the devils also believe, and tremble; thou hast made thyself like unto them, not being justified.
20 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
21 Seest thou how works wrought with his faith, and by works was faith made perfect?

We cannot have faith without works, nor can we have works without faith.

Both are equally important to our salvation.

[HLGStrider]

But faiths are not what saves us. They are a sign of what saves us.

If you put salt in water the water will be salty. If you put Christ in us and he's really there you will see him act out through us. However, just as the actions aren't what saves they are a sign of being saved. (just as the saltiness doesn't make the water have salt. The salt within the water (our salvation) makes the water salty (the sign of it. . .the works).

There are people who would be incapable of works. A paralyzed peson can be saved even if they can't work. . .even if they can't talk to say kind things to people. Even if they can't so much as smile. If they understand and believe, they are saved.

[Eriol]

This is what I meant by a misunderstanding. The word "faith" has two meanings, what I called in another thread right now "intellectual faith" and "saving faith". "Intellectual faith" is what the devils have; it is knowledge. It is clearly not enough for salvation. "Saving faith" is allowing Christ to enter us. It is a change of being, a new birth, something that encompasses much more than just the intellect (unlike intellectual faith).

So that "saving faith" alone is needed for salvation; but saving faith includes a lot of things besides "intellectual faith", such as repentance, and the will to follow Christ's commandments (i.e., the will to do good works). It is indeed a new birth.

Saving faith brings with it the will, but the will is not enough for good works, we need grace too. Our good works are not really ours, but God's.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Indeed, no one knows better than Satan and his demons the truth about Jesus of Nazarath so saying simply that one "believes" that Christ is the Son of God is not in and of itself a guarantor of salvation. Furthermore, as St. James has said, "Faith without good works is dead." By that he means that if we say we believe then our lives should be a reflection of that statement. If we are unloving, unforgiving and uninterested in the burdens of our fellow man, our words indeed "ring hollow" and mean nothing.

Remember, in Matthew, when Christ speaks of the Last Judgment and the separation of the "sheep" (the saved) from the "goats" (the damned), the criteria He uses has nothing whatsoever to do with doctrine or even "faith", but with works: I was hungry and you fed/didn't feed me; I was thirsty and you gave/didn't give Me drink etc.

It is true that one cannot "earn" one's way into heaven by doing good works, but, on the other hand, neither can one claim heaven by saying, "I believe" since, as has been noted, even Satan can say that!

[Bethelarien]

Originally posted by Thorin
We obey the law (ALL the law, not just nine commandments) and do good works BECAUSE we are saved not TO BE SAVED. Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments". If I love my wife, I will do good things for her and obey her. When someone's life does not reflect Christian teachings, one must question whether they have been truly saved.

Erm...not to nitpick, Thorin, but there are ten commandments, not nine. :D

And I must confess you quite confused me with your "because we are saved not to be saved" statement. Would you mind explaining that a little further? Thanks.

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Bethelarien
Erm...not to nitpick, Thorin, but there are ten commandments, not nine. :D

And I must confess you quite confused me with your "because we are saved not to be saved" statement. Would you mind explaining that a little further? Thanks. My "nine commandments" comment was a little tongue in cheek. I know there are nine commandments but one commandment is conveniently ignored by most of Christendom...the 4th about keeping the Sabbath holy. Hence, there seems to be really only 9 commandments for the Christians and nobody seems to have a problem with it. Check out the thread on "Does your work let you take Sunday off" or something like that to see where myself and Maggot are going.

As for the first part, works do not save us. We cannot do good works and make it to heaven on our own merits. However, when we are saved, Christ said, "If you love me, keep my commandments". Because of the selfless sacrifice of Christ for our sins, it creates in us a desire to serve Him with a changed heart. We will not do good deeds because we have to, but because we WANT to. If my wife does a good deed for me and says, "You are so special to me!" It makes me want to please her more. How much more should we be with Christ who died for us?

[Mrs. Maggott]

Someone once said that the Church was an ark (as in Noah). It is also a hospital since it is filled with the wounded and the maimed as are we all. The Church or Christianity (however you wish to define it) is filled with people who say one thing and do another. It is loaded with hypocrites and malcontents. It is simply overflowing with those who don't live up to Christ's commandments. Why? Because it is filled with human beings. That's why it is so dangerous to confuse what we as fallible humans present as "The Church" with "The Church". In the Screwtape Letters, Lewis talks about "The Church" which none of us see (until we meet the Lord) with Her banners and Her great saints. He then points out (to the minor temptor) what the human being sees as he sits in a pew in an old church: fellow congregants who cough, look seedy and sing terribly, dust, an old priest who perhaps doesn't serve well, etc. All the things that we take for "reality" but which are, in fact, only temporary and the result of living in a fallen world.

I had a beloved Jewish friend who once told me that Hitler was "a bad Christian". I told her that I was a "bad Christian" in that I did not live up to my faith. On the other hand, Hitler was no kind of a Christian! Many Jews believe that baptism into a church makes one a Christian. Indeed, many Christians believe the same thing! But the fact is that Christianity is not a "religion" per se, but a way of life. Indeed, in the first 100 years or so, it was called "The Way". One may be baptized and even fulfill all of the rituals attendant upon membership in the Church, but if one doesn't live in accordance with Christ's dictates (Love Ye one another! Forgive others, etc.) then one is no more a Christian that the man in the moon. Unlike Judaism, there is no ethnic identity in Christianity. Andrew Cuomo once declared himself "an ethnic Catholic". That's like saying that one is an "ethnic physicist" or an "ethnic doctor". There simply is no such thing.

Therefore, when one judges The Church, one cannot do so by the solemn pronouncements of any single person or even a group of people - indeed, not even an entire sect or denomination (Christianity has been so fragmented) but by Scripture and the history and Tradition of The Church from the time of Pentecost. I daresay, if one uses those criteria as a yardstick, much of what is confusing and debateable about the Faith will be cleared up fairly quickly and it will become apparent that all that confusion arises from individuals making up their own mind about what constitutes "The Church".

[Ciryaher]

Since the majority...well, all of the sentiments here are from a Christian standpoint, I will express the Hindu belief :)

God (Heaven, Nirvana, however you want to say it) can only be reached by faith in God. One who is faithful will do good works, not to reach God, but because doing good things is what faithful people do. Only by contemplating/worshipping God can one be considered to have faith (of course ;)) and so only those who express their faith genuinely (faith generating good works, rather than good works generating faith) will go to God.

I'd offer quotes, but I'm not at home and don't have either my copy of the Upanishads or Bhagavadgita with me :( But at any rate, I think I summed it up well :)

[Mrs. Maggott]

This is essentially the Christian belief as well. As believers, we would act in a "divine" way in order to please God and not to "earn" anything, knowing full well that there is no way we can make ourselves worthy of Christ's sacrifice. Our faith influences our life in such a way that we act in reflection of God's love for us and therefore our love not only for Him but for each other which, as you know, is the Second Great Commandment: Love Your Neighbor As Yourself.