Round 7, Guild of Outcasts vs. Guild of Elves and Dwarves

[baragund]

OK gang, here is the judging thread for the (ahem) hard-fought battle between the Outcasts and the Elves and Dwarves. The judges will be:

Snaga - Guild of Periaur
Ancalagon - Guild of Ost-in-Edhil
Manveru - Guild of Tolkienology
Yours Truly - Guild of Scholars
Idril - Neutral

[Nóm]

OK gang, here is the judging thread for the (ahem) hard-fought battle between the Outcasts and the Elves and Dwarves.

Why shouldn't GoO fight hard? Especially after the way you compliment Yay and I through implication that philosophical topics frighten us. Very encouraging!

[Snaga]

OK I am going to vote for a draw.

The Dwarves and Elves really only made one point: that the Dunlendings were encroaching on Rohan's territory. This is a fair comment but it only addresses events in the War of the Ring, but the question was not specific to that time.

Yay the Outcast makes more points, and does consider the wider history. He does enough to weaken the GoD/E point, by making it apparent that there is more to it than this simple fact. But he doesnt develop his points or make it clear what exactly was unjust. Really all he provides is a factually inadequate reprise of the history. To earn a victory a little more interpretation is required. The issue of Saruman's role is a good example. This is thrown in as a reason why they got a raw deal. But if they got a raw deal from Saruman, how does this answer the question which was the treatment they got from Gondor and Rohan?

Overall, I doubt I'd be contraversial if I said I thought that a little more effort on either side would have been good.:rolleyes:

[YayGollum]

I would love to respond to the snaga1 person's post, but I don't think I'm allowed to. oh well. Was the baragund person saying that I didn't fight especially hard? I didn't notice. I thought I noticed some sarcasm in there. Maybe I'm just crazy, though, and he didn't know that the number of posts that were made couldn't be helped.

[Manveru]

When baragund asked me to judge this debate for him, sth in me felt reluctant at first (it's not the person of the host or anything of such kind;)). I still had in mind our (GoT's) last debate... long posts, so many arguments... universally speaking: much reading involved!

Unfortunately, when I came here yesterday to look how the debate had ended, I saw only a few posts (which is not necessarily a 'vice' of this 'competition'--quality not quantity is what really matters, right?;), but...).

So...

Both GoO & GoE/D made their points, though it's seems to me that the Outcast types (;)) showed (at least tried to) a little more... 'delved' a little deeper (not to deep though...;)). The only 'argument' of Elves/Dwarves (although they used a quote to support it) was that a territory was given as a reward to Rohirrim... and they (GoE/D) stuck to that. Both sides didn't developed their arguments strong enough (I agree with snaga1's last sentence)... but I think Yay mentioned (a few) more reasons to support GoO's side.

So...

My vote goes to GoO.

[baragund]

First, a couple of remarks:

I too, was a little disappointed in the effort put into this debate. Did I phrase the topic poorly? Or was the topic something the two sides just didn't care for? I would have gladly provided clarification or a whole new topic if I had known.

Also, if I came across as inconsiderate in any way in my earlier remarks on the Round 6 debate, I am truly sorry. I was being tongue-in-cheek about the range of the topic in that debate and my remarks were intended to be taken in jest. I'll try harder to make sure that when I'm kidding, it won't be taken the wrong way.

That said, let's get to the debate in question.

When I asked if the Dunlendings got a raw deal from Gondor and the Rohirrim, I was talking about whether or not they were treated with justice. And not just during the War of the Ring, but through the entire recorded history of Gondor and Rohan.

Yay started out for GoO by missing the question a bit when he described the treatment of the Dunlendings by Saruman and how he manipulated them. But he finished off stronger by getting into some of the underlying issues between Dunland and Gondor / Rohan. Their pretty decent heritage as descendants of Haleth and the basic notion that they were the indigenous people who were forcibly removed from their lands by Gondor.

The Elves and Dwarves hung their argument on the assumption that Dunland had no rights whatsoever to the land known as Rohan and they should be treated as nothing more than the bandits they are. I found this viewpoint rather shallow and not really addressing the reasons why they felt they needed to attack Rohan.

There is actually a fair amount of material that could be gleaned from the books to build arguments on either side. GoO could have had a field day with the descriptions in the Akallabeth and in UT of the exploitation of this part of Middle Earth for the benefit of the Kings of Numenor. This includes deforestation to build all the nifty Numenorian fleets and the subjugation of the indigenous peoples that led to enduring resentment of their descendents, the Gondorians.

GoE/D did not pick up on the efforts at reconciliation that King Elessar made after the War of the Ring. They could have argued the Saruman angle, how he was reopening old wounds, that sort of thing.

Still, GoO touched on some of these underlying issues between Dunland and Gondor / Rohan, so my vote goes to
Guild of Outcasts.

[Ancalagon]

I'm sorry to take so long to get back.

Well, in as much as I thought the question was excellent, it was not given the credit it deserved by these two teams. I fear both teams missed the point of the question and failed to research the question sufficiently enough to mount a credible arguement.

Only one reference was furnished us by the Guild of Elves and Dwarves, while it had a point, it was not exactly the point I would have been looking for in this debate. No real effort made to reveal the history on either side, no reference given to Unfinished Tales, where most of the History of Dunlendings can be read and considered. Neither team made a solid arguement based on actually spending time trying to familiarise themselves with the subject matter, and that is a shame, leaving a question such as this to be wasted.

Personally, I would give neither team my vote, which means I have to call a draw, which I think is more than they deserve.

Either have a go at these debates with vigour or postpone them until you have more time to put some effort into it. One hour is all it takes to research a question and submit a position. IF there are only two in a team, then at the very least we should have had 4 fairly good posts to read. In this case, there were bugger all.

[Idril]

Sorry folks for the delay in judging - I am mid re-modelling my kitchen:(.

Well what can I say - it (the debate) was short... , and the topic not well covered by either side:( - minimal effort, which is a shame.

I felt GoO did at least put forward some viable reasons for the Dunlendings get a raw deal. I particularly like Yay's

When the guy that you people mentioned gave that land to the Rohan types, some Dunlending types were still living there. They got forced out. Very sad. They had a good reason to try getting the stuff back, I'd say. Reminds me of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict..... .

Anyway I give my vote to GoO for making that little bit more effort which convinced me to agree with their side of the debate.

[YayGollum]

Ah. That was fast. To the snaga1 person, I was writing that they got the raw deal type of thing from the Rohan types just because they were messed with by the evil Saruman. That didn't seem like a good reason to me to be mad at the Dunlending types. just like it's evil to be mad at poor Smeagol or Grima or something. :eek: Anyways, I understood the topic and everything. Maybe I just didn't come up with enough points to please you people because I'm not the greatest expert on every little bit of what that Tolkien person had to say about one little boring bit of human history. *hangs head in shame* oh well. Oo! How's about from now on, the host post every little place in every little book he can find that relates to the topic? :rolleyes:

[Snaga]

Yay

It doesnt entirely surprise me that that was what you meant. I guessed that you were probably meaning that. But you didnt make it clear enough to make it a decisive point. If you want to convince people that you are right you have to go the extra mile to explain yourself. You never do that. You always express yourself in a combination of *shrugs* "oh well"'s and *runs away*'s mixed with rhetorical questions that you leave unanswered. It may seem to you that this is quite enough to get your point across, but I disagree. Those who communicate more clearly are better debators.

But then, you know all this already.:(

[YayGollum]

I do? Oh. I'll take your word for it. Anyways, got it. Spell things out for people because they haven't grown the ability to read my mind yet. Whoops. But then, if you were able to read my mind, why hold it against me that you think that other people might not be able to? oh well.

[Snaga]

Because there were other possible interpretations of what you said. So although I thought I could read your mind, I wasnt sure.

[YayGollum]

Ah. Okay. Not giving me the benefit of the doubt? So sad. :rolleyes: But then, that's how I've been judging, too. Argh. *grumbles, then runs away*