Round 7 Guild of Periaur vs. Guild of Tolkienology

[Bethelarien]

This is the judging thread for the GoP v. GoT debate. The judges are as follows:

Guild of Elves/Dwarves(host): Bethelarien--Draw :(
Guild of Outcasts: Nom--GoP
Guild of Scholars: baragund--GoP
Ost-in-Edhil: Arvedui--GoP
Neutral: Talierin--GoP

My thanks to all for their participation, and their patience for my first hosting experience. Next time will be much more organized. ;) My judgement will be up sometime in the very near future.

[Nóm]

Okay a lot of stuff went on, but I'll hit what I deem to be the major relevant points.

Initially I thought the Periaur point (used in opening) that Thingol was wrong because this action lead to the destruction in Doriath, would prove to have been an error by the Periaur, as that reasoning (to use the consequences of his action with no regard to his intent) could be turned about by the GoT and with fatal results unless Periaur admit defeat on that point recalling it, and stick to their other points. GoT did go on to use such reasoning in their arguement, but in the end Periaur came in with something which surpised me... the agruement which defends that opening point while attacking the GoT's turnabout reasoning... Peraiur do so by saying since Thingol was King of Doriath he is accountable for all actions that effect Doriath but not those beyond Doriath and especially if they are unforessen by Thingol. I do not know if Periaur witheld this so that GoT could dig their grave by using such reasoning with the Earendil stuff and whatnot, if so it was a cool strategy. But I'll get back to this below.

GoT's has points that the good consequences of Thingol's action make him right for having done what he did.

GoT's other big thing was the claim that because it was doomed to happen, Thingol was right. I thought this a weak arguement but would Periaur point that weakness out and drive it home? You bet.

Attempts by GoT to show that Thingol indended to test Beren were weak as it was, but moreover they were attacked successfully by Periaur and proven wrong beyond any doubt. Thingol did not want to give Beren a chance to prove himself, he wanted Beren dead.

The good consequences were shown not to justify Thingol's actions, that it was fated was shown not to mean that Thingol was right, as all sorts of good stuff comes from evil. GoT's point that Thingol ended up warming up to Beren was shown to demonstrate that he had been wrong before. GoT fought hard but I think they took the wrong angle. All in all their best point is that Thingol was looking out for the good of his daughter, I think this should have been the foundation of the arguement and was sorry to see they did not work more with this.

The string about Laws and Costums didn't come to anything relevant, in my opinion.

Periaur's case that Thingol was wrong because, in short, his treatement of Beren was out of line and unjust, his intentions ill beyond what Beren could have possably deserved, as well as his disregard for his daughter's love, remained strong thorughout the debate.

Another Periaur point was that Thingol should have known that having a silmaril would have put his realm in danger.
But this brings me the thought: if a thing cannot be used to justify Thingol's actions because it is beyond consideration, as was the Voyage of Earendil and results of the elf + man unions, then could the ruin of Doriath be used even though it was beyond Thingol's consideration as he fully believed and intended (according to Periaur, and aside from this it is really a fact) Beren would die and no silmaril would reach Doriath? GoT didn't question this, but my being aware of it causes this Periaur point about the Ruin of Doriath being a reason Thingol was wrong, questionable. However the other Periaur points stand stong, more strong than GoT's point that Thingol was looking out for his daughter's own good, which is the only GoT agurment that ever was strong, and was not completely smashed by Periaur. Rather it was over-ruled by Periaur's strong case.

So my vote goes to Periaur.

But thanks for the debate everyone, I enjoyed it.

I just wonder why GoT didn't argue Thingol was right in that his action did at least succeed in getting Beren killed... and if you reduce it, that was Thingol's intention in sending Beren after a silmaril. :mad: hehehe!

[Arvedui]

A really good debate by both sides!!!

First of all, I have a real problem accepting preordainment as an argument in debates. If we were to use preordainment as an argument, then there would be no debates. The other side should just give in and say "sorry."

Secondly, I also find it a bit hard to bring consequences of the actions into the debate, as long as it is not foreseen by any major participant in the given topic. The reason for this is simple: as long as a major charachter (in this case Thingol and Beren) can not see what his demands might lead to, I personally think that they cannot be given any credit for what comes about.

Therefore, I have overlooked a number of the arguments used by both sides, but mainly the GoT.
If anyone is uncomfortable with this, feel free to find another judge, and I will delete my judgement.

IMO, what it really came down to was two main arguments:
GoP: That Thingol tried to bring about Beren's death, without breaking his oath.
GoT: That Beren's love for Lúthien was so strong that nothing could stop it, and that he challenged Thingol.

(Both arguments re-written to the way I read them.)

The GoP brought forth the quote to prove that that was Thingol's real intentions, and the way I see it, the GoT were never able to prove them wrong.

The GoT brought forth a quote to show that nothing would keep Beren away from Lúthien. GoP came up with a second interpretation of that quote, that it was Beren's description of what he already had been through. Well, I read it and came to the conclution that it was perhaps plausible that that is what Beren was really saying.

Finally, I think the GoP had the opportunity to pick the easiest side in this debate, and that was therefore in the back of my head all the time. When I read the topic, it was clear to me that Thingol was indeed wrong to do this. Therefore the GoP started with 'handicap' if you understand what I mean. I could not judge by who I thought was right in the end, but who I thought gave the best arguments. So this was a close call, but in the end, one side proved able to put forth more convincing arguments than the other.


My vote goes to the Guild of Periaur.

[Bethelarien]

I would like to again thank everyone for their participation and especially their patience with me through my first hosting experience.

This debate was amazing. I had though, when I chose the topic, that the outcome would be easy to decide.

Was I ever wrong. I've read through this thing four times now, and finally come to a decision. I was going to call it a draw, but I really don't like calling draws, and never have, and probably never will. But it was such a close call. Then I figured I would just read it again (that makes 5 times) and I'd decide.

But I couldn't. Both teams were amazing. Albeit, if I were to take my own personal feelings into consideration, I would choose the Periaur. As you might have noticed, the way I wrote the question was pretty much one-sided (which I now regret doing). But I don't feel that would be fair.

Both teams debated equally well. Both had an equal convincing factor on me. I hate to do this, but:

A draw.

[baragund]

Hi Guys,

First off, thanks to Beth for giving me the opportunity to judge this passionately argued debate between some of the best minds in this forum. And kudos to each of the debate participants; your posts showed good effort and extensive research to defend your respective positions. I think any debate having to do with Beren and Luthien and their quest for the Silmaril will be passionately argued because they stir such strong emotions among Tolkien followers.

GoP opened the debate with a scathing attack on Thingol’s motives which, it seems to me, are pretty hard to refute. GoT tried to counter on those grounds using Thingol’s love for his daughter as justification, but it struck me as more like a rationalization for him wanting to just get rid of Beren. For a while, the debate remained focused on Thingol’s motives and, because of this, I thought this was going to be a slam dunk for GoP but then Finduilas made an excellent move by expanding the terms of the debate by considering the consequences of the quest … Finrod fulfilling his duty to Barahir, the slaying of Carcaroth and, most importantly, the use of the recovered Silmaril for the salvation of ME. GoP’s made some good points of their own regarding the consequences of the quest, mainly the subsequent conflicts with the dwarves and the sons of Feanor, and the ultimate destruction of Doriath but I felt they could have developed this argument more. Meanwhile, Aule tried to steer the debate to be based solely on outcome but I felt the wording of the question was broad enough where this tactic would not be applicable.

So in my mind the question was boiling down to a variation of “Does the end justify the means” with the Tolkienologists focusing on the positive aspects of the outcome to answer Yes while the Periaur focusing on Thingol’s selfish and dishonorable intentions to answer No, and, by the way, there were some pretty awful consequences for Thingol and Doriath as well.

I was rather amazed at Manveru’s response to Aule where he says that Thingol bringing the Doom of Mandos upon himself and his people was that he did not think it was a crucial point to this debate. I can’t think of a more crucial consequence of the quest than the destruction of one’s kingdom. I really would like to have understood his thinking there.

Beleg posted a wealth of information in the later part of the debate but, frankly, the verbal tennis match between him and Aule made it awful hard to plow through.

To me, the Periaur organized their arguments better and Snaga’s summation at the end was outstanding (and thank you for refraining from dealing with your opponents in “orc fashion”). It did not go unnoticed that the Tolkienologists did not post their own closing summary. I give my vote to Guild of Periaur.

[Talierin]

My vote also shall have to go to Guild of Periaur. Both teams did excellent, but I was swayed slightly more by the GoP and their arguements than the GoT and theirs. Fine job everybody though :)

[Bethelarien]

Alright. Thank you everyone for your participation.

The debate goes to the Guild of Periaur.

[Aulë]

Yes, and thankyou to the Tolkienologists for such a fun debate. I've never been a fan of the Beren & Lúthien love story, but this debate 'forced' me to read it, and I ended up enjoying it quite a bit.

Onwards to Round 8! :D

[Manveru]

There wouldn't have been fun if it hadn't been for you, too, the Periaurs;).
Yeah. I enjoyed this debate (though I kinda... oh well *cat gets his tongue*;)). Thanx anyway. It was pleasure to debate with you... And I'd like to thank the judges and to Bethelarien for hosting it... and...

maybe I'll just shut up... you guys must be tired;)